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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 11/21/2007 9:03:38 AM
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TheosCentric
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Yes, it is. The problem is taking the doctrine of modern Orthodox Judaism and applying it the Bible.
It's like with any doctrine. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say if you go in with pre-conceived notions. I suppose we all do this to an extent, but to make it say that Jesus did not lay claim to Messiahship? It's heresy.
The strongest case for Jesus' messiahship is Peter's acknowlegement of Jesus being the Christ.
I pointed this out to John Hagee in my letter, but he did not acknowledge it in his response.
It is very sad. We should pray that he comes to a knowledge of the truth.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 11/24/2007 7:58:07 PM
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Dancre
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RECON
His latest book - In Defence Of Israel.
Hagee:
quote:
It will prove that Jesus did not come to earth to be the messiah. It will prove that there was a Calvery conspiracy between Rome, the high priest, and Herod to execute Jesus as an insurrectionist too dangerous to live. Since Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the messiah, how can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?"
Jesus refused by deed to be the messiah? He was the messiah so how can he not be the messiah by deed? This man is either crazy or a heretic or both!
What saith scripture?
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.
Apparently the Jews were "cut to the heart" that they had killed the messiah and asked "Brothers, what shall we do?" The reply from Peter was "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
Jesus told the woman at the well that he was the messiah:
Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
Joh 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things."
Joh 4:26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
"make merchandise of you" - He's selling a book.
How did you get this quote if it's in his book? And where did you get it? Can you provide a link? Thanks!!!
kim
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/18/2007 12:46:47 AM
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bigboytenor
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It shouldn't be a surprise that he quotes quips of verses and pays no attention to context. This is a favorite approach of Hagee and others in his camp.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/18/2007 8:24:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
I wonder if he thinks Israel is being saved nationally now before the church is even raptured?
From what few teachings of his on Israel that I have heard, I do think that is what he believes.
Thanks
RC
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/20/2007 10:05:22 PM
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sagacity
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Jer. 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
They (the natural Israel) have been given this Great opportunity by Jesus Christ to walk in the fullness NOW. Anyone that in this age who are not apart of the Body of Christ are now called the Gentiles, they are the ones who are outside the temple.
Eph.2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/22/2007 3:44:02 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
quote:
Anyway, I think we can all agree that Hagee is truly speaking heresy, correct? You got that right!
I think if we fully understood the "Olive Tree Theology" (Romans 9-11)
We would find we all have "some" truth, but we're mostly wrong,
as Adam pointed out. Perhaps this is the case because regarding the end times, all hasn't been revealed yet. As regards eschatology, I've read enough about pre-trib dispensationalism to know that I cannot accept its teachings. "Let him who has wisdom reckon the number of the beast." Seems those who have Godly wisdom, who must then necessarily be within the body of Christ, will be here on earth to identify just who this man of lawlessness is. So the Church will not be raptured before anti-Christ is revealed.
No wonder we have so much confusion. LOL.Ain't that the truth. Some Christians focus way too much on the end times. Our "end time" could come at any time when we die and Christ calls us home to Himself. We should always be ready to face our Lord.
Hagee has been in error for some time even before the latest ride he's on.
Couldn't agree with you more. But then is that a surprise? Most of what is shown on TBN is unorthodox Christianity. Those who have "ears to hear" should be able to discern that the prosperity, name-it-claim-it gospel is indeed a "false" gospel. When a church strays from what is taught in the creeds, and from our Christian heritage, they make themselves a prey to every wind of doctrine. Thus, we have in this "camp" the teachings of holy laughter, onesness Pentecostalism, negative confession, misapplication of binding and loosing, the prosperity gospel, just to mention a few.
Great stuff here. I really enjoy reading what most of you have to say. My admonition is: believe little of what you hear on TBN.
HD
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/22/2007 3:58:03 PM
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Heavendweller
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There are many minor aspects of doctrine to decide on when choosing a church. I have yet to attend one that I completely agree with.
[/quote]
I completely understand what you are saying here. I think we must consider what errors we can live with that won't adversely effect our salvation. Some things are just a matter of discipline, while others are necessary to be believed in order for us to be saved. With regard to Hagee, if one submits to his teaching, and esp. this latest nonsense, then he/she is at risk of being deceived and led astray from Christ's salvation.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 12/22/2007 4:07:05 PM
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Heavendweller
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carlkeigley
The Church has not failed!Churches fail,false christians and teachers fail.The Church is pleasant and acceptable to Chrsit.The bride of Christ has not failed or she wouldnt be acceptable.The Church is not the bulding or buildings or every member of every church.The Church is the elected of Christ.and the Elected will fail individually because we are sinners but Christ has washed us and we WILL follow his command because he says we will.
In one sense you are right. Christ said to Peter, "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." So Christ's Church has always been here since the time of the Apostolic Age. Yet, it seems the local church has made itself vulnerable to heresy. Thus, false teachers such as Hagee have influence over many. One of the reasons Hagee is able to sway so many to his side is due to the weakness of the local church. Many don't even think they need to attend church any longer. They can get their spiritual "fix" from TBN. What a sad state of affairs we are in.
HD
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/2/2008 10:31:35 AM
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TheosCentric
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The latest update is that Hagee is reworking that chapter of the book, due to the controversy. He still says that he stands by what he says, just reworking it a bit to be more clear. Interesting to see what it will say now. I have two documents from him emailed to me that still document his heretical stance. One of which is on my blog.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/2/2008 11:22:16 AM
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earthless
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Imagine my feelings when I arrive home the other day and see John Hagee on my living room TV.. audio full blast and my mother in law enjoying that heretics dribble.
Ugh.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/2/2008 11:28:25 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Imagine my feelings when I arrive home the other day and see John Hagee on my living room TV.. audio full blast and my mother in law enjoying that heretics dribble.
Ugh.
Just think of how many people actually buy (literally and figuratively) his dribble each and every day. Add to that, all the other heretics on television, and it makes one want to puke. Jesus actually does puke over this. See Revelation.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/2/2008 12:25:00 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
One of the reasons Hagee is able to sway so many to his side is due to the weakness of the local church.
yeap... big part of the problem is the pathetic condition of modern organized Christianity. While there always be people that like playing weird religion and Hagee and Co got that market cornered serving customers well-
I suppose Earthie’s mother-in law is not an uneducated, questionably sane, naïve old baba looking for sensationalism, she, I bet, is a normal woman, heard the Gospel before, been to church, and somewhat pretty familiar with who Jesus is. Yet pastors, parents and whoever else what showing her Jesus surely failed at it if she doesn’t see thru that crook.
Rise of Hagees of various flavors is not entirely their fault, but depends on abundance of lame clubs billed as churches that don’t do their job!
I am a college student , and still shocked how churches spiritually crippling your youth here.. You know how some people homeschool - If I lived in US and had kids, I would probably “homechurch” them to be on the safe side.. 
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/3/2008 9:01:24 PM
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NewMan96
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I once listened to Hagee, before he went overboard with his message of Israel. I have not kept up with him lately and didn't know it had gone this far. If he has said all of this drivel, then he is a heretic. Even if he weren't, this new message of his does nothing to evangelize the world for Jesus Christ. We were not called to defend Israel, but make disciples throughout the world.
Even though Jesus didn't come in the manner Israel was expecting(which He will the next time), He did come as the Messiah. Many Jews did not recognize Him, but many did. Of those that recognized Him, many rejested Him, but many accepted Him (the apostles, etc).
Christ came first to Israel, after they rejected Him, He then brought salvation to the Gentiles. In Romans 9 and 10 Paul prays that Israel accept Jesus now, as He came and not wait for the future. Jesus came as the Messiah.
_____________________________
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/4/2008 9:37:28 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewMan96
I once listened to Hagee, before he went overboard with his message of Israel. I have not kept up with him lately and didn't know it had gone this far. If he has said all of this drivel, then he is a heretic. Even if he weren't, this new message of his does nothing to evangelize the world for Jesus Christ. We were not called to defend Israel, but make disciples throughout the world.
Even though Jesus didn't come in the manner Israel was expecting(which He will the next time), He did come as the Messiah. Many Jews did not recognize Him, but many did. Of those that recognized Him, many rejested Him, but many accepted Him (the apostles, etc).
Christ came first to Israel, after they rejected Him, He then brought salvation to the Gentiles. In Romans 9 and 10 Paul prays that Israel accept Jesus now, as He came and not wait for the future. Jesus came as the Messiah.
Exactly. Even if Hagee were correct in his teachings, which he isn't, he is "majoring on the minors" - taking copious amounts of time to teach on a relatively small matter when he could be reaching the lost and making disciples for more Kingdom work.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/6/2008 2:17:15 AM
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yod
Posts: 40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
The latest update is that Hagee is reworking that chapter of the book, due to the controversy. He still says that he stands by what he says, just reworking it a bit to be more clear. Interesting to see what it will say now. I have two documents from him emailed to me that still document his heretical stance. One of which is on my blog.
It doesn't matter. The damage is done and no one that knows what he wrote is going to be swayed by a re-working of that garbage.
It's a shame because he was doing a good work politically....but his theology is going to cause it to come crashing down. Many of his supporters have already left and more will be leaving.
He has never been a friend to the messianic community. That alone told me all I needed to know about someone who claims to support Israel...while shunning the legitimate remnant of Israel in favor of being friends with the Orthodox
It can be a difficult tightrope to walk when you try to be friends with the Orthodox. To outright deny Yeshua before the Orthodox is a "fear of man" issue...and heretical
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 1/6/2008 6:49:06 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yod
quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
The latest update is that Hagee is reworking that chapter of the book, due to the controversy. He still says that he stands by what he says, just reworking it a bit to be more clear. Interesting to see what it will say now. I have two documents from him emailed to me that still document his heretical stance. One of which is on my blog.
It doesn't matter. The damage is done and no one that knows what he wrote is going to be swayed by a re-working of that garbage.
It's a shame because he was doing a good work politically....but his theology is going to cause it to come crashing down. Many of his supporters have already left and more will be leaving.
He has never been a friend to the messianic community. That alone told me all I needed to know about someone who claims to support Israel...while shunning the legitimate remnant of Israel in favor of being friends with the Orthodox
It can be a difficult tightrope to walk when you try to be friends with the Orthodox. To outright deny Yeshua before the Orthodox is a "fear of man" issue...and heretical
Yod,
This is scary, because I'm actually going to agree with you, this once. Excpet for him doing a great work politically and all.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/3/2008 11:49:55 AM
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GodsMusic
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From Wiki
"On August 26, 1960, Hagee married his first wife Martha; they had two children, Christopher and Tish.[5] In October 1966, Hagee founded Trinity Church in San Antonio, Texas.[9]
He resigned his pastorate in May 1975, purportedly saying "my marriage had collapsed and I became immoral in my personal conduct" in his resignation statement.[10] Hagee and his wife divorced in September 1975.[11]
Hagee married his second wife, Diana Castro, a member of the congregation 12 years his junior, on April 12, 1976.[12][10][5] Due to the bylaws of his Assemblies of God denomination, Hagee could no longer be ordained or licensed within and was defrocked[13], but sued the denomination for millions of dollars for defamation of character. Today, Hagee and his wife Diana have three children: Christina, Matthew, and Sandy. Matthew Hagee is the Associate Pastor of Cornerstone Church [14]."
I never knew this about Hagee.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/22/2008 5:59:47 AM
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Stormcrow
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We have to be careful in defining what's meant by "Messiah" here. The Jews were looking for a "messiah" like Moses: someone who would deliver them out of the hands of the Romans and restore the kingdom of Israel, as Moses had delivered them out of Egypt.
Jesus repeatedly stated he was not this "messiah" and that His kingdom was not of this world.
Clearly, Jesus was (and is) Messiah - the "lamb who was slain for the sins of the world" and that's what His ministry was all about.
So with that in mind, it's hard to tell based on this one short video clip which "messiah" Haggee is referring to when he states "Jesus did not claim to be messiah."
While I don't listen to Haggee, the clip you guys posted is having it's intended effect: stirring up discussion and controversy. Even giving Haggee a pass on the "messiah" issue, I'm hard pressed to agree with marketing an erstwhile "christian" book this way, precisely because it seems designed to do nothing more than stir up strife and division.
Of course, there's always the chance he's gone completely loony with heresy, but someone should actually read the book before passing such harsh judgment on the man and/or his work. As alluded to above, a 30 second commercial is designed to grab your attention, not answer your questions.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/22/2008 9:30:58 AM
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TheosCentric
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Hagee takes his definition of Messiah from the Dictionary. The Jews completely misunderstood what Messiah meant from the Old Testament. It always meant one who would destroy sin and death. That's what Jesus did. He is both the suffering servant and the conquering King. Hagee wants to split it up in favor of Modern Jewish theology and his love for the Jews. He has said that he does not target the Jews for salvation.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/25/2008 9:01:45 PM
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FivePointer
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He is a one trick pony with his head buried deep within eschatology's rear end.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/26/2008 7:08:32 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
John Hagee has taken his love for the Jewish people and Israel too far. He is now officially a heretic (as far as I can tell, if he wasn't before). Check out the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI
Thoughts? He has said in the past that he doesn't target Jews for salvation. I believe he thinks that they don't need a Messiah. That they'll be saved anyway.
Greetings,
DId you read the book??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/26/2008 8:15:19 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
The strongest case for Jesus' messiahship is Peter's acknowledgement of Jesus being the Christ.
I pointed this out to John Hagee in my letter, but he did not acknowledge it in his response.
It is very sad. We should pray that he comes to a knowledge of the truth.
Greetings,
I pointed this out to John Hagee in my letter, but he did not acknowledge it in his response. It is very sad. We should pray that he comes to knowledge of the truth.
LOL!
You prayers are affective, that’s why he wrote the book….
If were JH I would not have responded either....
He probably tossed in the trash can,
…….Because “Peter's acknowledgement” of Jesus being the Christ has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' messiah ship.
The strongest case is written in verse 17 and is that in which the gates of Hades shall not prevail against, which is the revelation given from the Father (NOT PETER), whereby that on that rock I (Jesus) will build My church, and is the same revelation given to Jesus from the very same Father, as written in John 6:44-46
….Not the type of the preterist misunderstandings, as written in this thread.
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
The crux is not the messiah-ship; it is that one receives revelation as written in John 6:45
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock "I will build My church", and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
The problem is many Christians say they received revelation because it is written on the surface of a book, but the principal is when that revelation actually is given them.
And this point of the verse is repeated by Jesus many times in the scriptures
For example in opposite of what Peter said in v16
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
The problem is today is that many of “His disciples” who have not been granted revelation do not have enough sense to leave…. and are still sticking around preaching doctrine against those to whom it has been granted.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 5/26/2008 10:35:09 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
John Hagee has taken his love for the Jewish people and Israel too far. He is now officially a heretic (as far as I can tell, if he wasn't before). Check out the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI
Thoughts? He has said in the past that he doesn't target Jews for salvation. I believe he thinks that they don't need a Messiah. That they'll be saved anyway.
Greetings,
DId you read the book??
LG
I have flipped through it in the bookstore and read the pertinent parts. Point?
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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