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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black And White?
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 8:11:33 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
The Christian community has a long, long way to go
Ok gayle. You have said no one is suggesting solutions and no one is listening...
you now have the floor. What do you want changed and how do you think this "immence" problem can be fixed?
Thanks.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 11:34:35 AM
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GregandJenny
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quote:
Believe it or not, we, black and white christians do create divisions in one another because we don't know how to accept each other as God accepted us.
The Christian community has a long, long way to go as far as breaking down barriers toward this issue.
THIS IS SUCH A BROAD STATEMENT. IT IS STATEMENTS LIKE THIS THAT DON'T FOSTER HEALING BUT MORE DIVISION BECAUSE IT ACTS AS IF EVERYONE IS LIKE THIS.
I have enjoyed SonInMe's conversation in this thread, He is white and I am black, he is not creating divisions and I am not creating divisions. Now I am not saying it does not happen. But again as I have said you have to deal with it on an individual case by case basis.
and watch what you say Gayle because it will cause division and not foster healing.
GH
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 5:06:15 PM
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rcjames
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I think SoninMe laid out the answer to the OP way early in the thread. By we should not be making things a black/white issue.
If a black person is a true believing Christinan then they are a full and equal brother to a white true believing Christian and vice/versa. No difference, no prejudice, no need to promote healing as the sacrifice of Christ has already done the healing.
The issue should be as laid out in the New Testament; Belivers and non-Believers, as in those condemned to eternal hell and those saved by the blood of Christ.
If we keep this very Biblical perspective this there is no "Racism", only those who have accepted Christ and those who have not as of yet accepted Christ. A non-Believing Black is just as condemnsd as a non-Beliveing White and the only saving Grace is provided through the Blood of Christ Jesus.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/1/2007 9:53:47 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 8:33:05 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
I have enjoyed SonInMe's conversation in this thread, He is white and I am black, he is not creating divisions and I am not creating divisions.
Thank you.
I get a lot of entertainment from these forums esspecially when I am quoted. That is probably ego, I guess, but I must say I enjoy both those who agree with me and those who do not.
Mostly on this issue I have seen disagreement, esspecially from the "black community", if there is such a thing, and by this thread and the ones like it, I can see there just might be...and its not a good thing.
Its nice to see a little agreement though.
I don't mean to offend anyone esspecially gayle but...
I am still waiting for a response. You don't have to respond to me gayle of course but I think your arguements are a little...thin....if you don't.
Please, give me an example of what you want done to heal this problem. A solution. Not talk, we are doing that. A real solution to this "racism" in the church. Not feelings...a real solution.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 9:53:35 PM
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gaylel1
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quote:
THIS IS SUCH A BROAD STATEMENT. IT IS STATEMENTS LIKE THIS THAT DON'T FOSTER HEALING BUT MORE DIVISION BECAUSE IT ACTS AS IF EVERYONE IS LIKE THIS.
Greg, you don't have to post in caps--that is considered shouting.
But I disagree in what you are saying. We do have a long, long way. And we need to start now. We need to stop judging people because of stereotypes or because of a stat. We need to learn to love people as Jesus loves them and make them feel welcomed in the body.
Again, the purpose of this thread is for people to offer suggestions, not start WW2 like in other threads about race.
< Message edited by gaylel1 -- 10/31/2007 10:08:20 PM >
_____________________________
In Loving memory...
Christopher "Topher" Laurie
Called home to glory on July 24, 2008
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 10:39:50 PM
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Acts29
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
I have enjoyed SonInMe's conversation in this thread, He is white and I am black, he is not creating divisions and I am not creating divisions.
Thank you.
I get a lot of entertainment from these forums esspecially when I am quoted. That is probably ego, I guess, but I must say I enjoy both those who agree with me and those who do not.
Mostly on this issue I have seen disagreement, esspecially from the "black community", if there is such a thing, and by this thread and the ones like it, I can see there just might be...and its not a good thing.
Its nice to see a little agreement though.
I don't mean to offend anyone esspecially gayle but...
I am still waiting for a response. You don't have to respond to me gayle of course but I think your arguements are a little...thin....if you don't.
Please, give me an example of what you want done to heal this problem. A solution. Not talk, we are doing that. A real solution to this "racism" in the church. Not feelings...a real solution.
Gayle I have been reading this thread. I really wish you would give examples from your own experiences as to how you think we (black and white) should solve this problem.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 10/31/2007 10:46:46 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 334
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quote:
And we need to start now. We need to stop judging people because of stereotypes or because of a stat. We need to learn to love people as Jesus loves them and make them feel welcomed in the body.
I am not starting ww3, but what i am having a problem with is the fact that you are addressing everyone when not everyone is a problem. You have failed to give examples. You can't have healing where there is no harmed. I don't feel pressed down by white people, if people think that I am a certain way because I am black, oh well. My wife feels the same about black people.
I believe some people need healing and what we can do is help them work through that, and as you said love, but I do feel loved by white people in my church. I have dinner with them, I work with them, I pray with them, what more do I need?
GH
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/1/2007 9:47:40 AM
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SonInMe1
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I've been here for 7 years I think.
I don't think I have ever read one stereotypical statement about any race of people...except white people.
I have seen posts where racism was defined as white on black and could not be anything else.
I don't think I have seen one comment about a black stereotype....except maybe by blacks themselves. The black "culture". The black "dialect".
As I said before the skin problem in the church is not color, its thickness.
I don't care who you are. How much money you have or don't have. I don't care how you dress or the car you drive or the color of your skin.
What matters to me is how you act. Actions speak much louder than words and its what people do that defines them, not who or what they are.
My actions, good and bad define me. They make up who I am, not the color of my skin or where I am from or who my parents were. It doesn't matter what yesterday was or how I was treated or abused.
Tommorow takes care of itself. Yesterday is done and today? Its in Christ. All this other stuff? If it matters at all and 99% of it really does not matter, its way down the list of importance.
Bottom line...you are what you are.
Submitting to Christ...or not. Everything else does not matter.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/1/2007 3:40:20 PM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
quote:
THIS IS SUCH A BROAD STATEMENT. IT IS STATEMENTS LIKE THIS THAT DON'T FOSTER HEALING BUT MORE DIVISION BECAUSE IT ACTS AS IF EVERYONE IS LIKE THIS.
Greg, you don't have to post in caps--that is considered shouting.
But I disagree in what you are saying. We do have a long, long way. And we need to start now. We need to stop judging people because of stereotypes or because of a stat. We need to learn to love people as Jesus loves them and make them feel welcomed in the body.
Again, the purpose of this thread is for people to offer suggestions, not start WW2 like in other threads about race.
I think the point he's making is that when we make broad statements as you made, we are making sweeping judgements (or at least coming across that way). For someone who has tried their entire life to treat all people with love and respect, I find it offensive when someone who doesn't even know me assumes that because I am white, I must somehow be a part of the racial problem and I'm not doing enough to heal the racial divide (which as evidenced by many posters here is not a universal divide). Just as most blacks find it offensive when people assume that because they are black their success can only be because of affirmative action. Both are wrong and both are offensive. Broad, sweeping statements like you have made, come across that way. That may not be what you intend, just as some posters here have had their comments read in ways they didn't intend, but the result is the same.
I think the point some are trying to make is that you don't pull out the fire hose and douse the entire kitchen because your small pan of chops on the stove caught fire.
Now if you are from an area where the entire kitchen is ablaze - grab that hose! But don't judge the guy the down the street whose kitchen isn't all ablaze for not doing the exact same thing.
That's why so many are saying racism needs to be dealt with on an individual bases - not a broad, sweeping effort that's trying to douse a fire where one may not even exist. Just because the homeowner has a kitchen doesn't mean that kitchen is on fire. We will be more effective in putting our fires if we focus our efforts on the actual fires - not on trying to douse everything out there.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/1/2007 7:36:14 PM
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GregandJenny
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Thank you Kristin, Thank you :)
GH
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/1/2007 8:05:54 PM
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Acts29
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
And we need to start now. We need to stop judging people because of stereotypes or because of a stat. We need to learn to love people as Jesus loves them and make them feel welcomed in the body.
I am not starting ww3, but what i am having a problem with is the fact that you are addressing everyone when not everyone is a problem. You have failed to give examples. You can't have healing where there is no harmed. I don't feel pressed down by white people, if people think that I am a certain way because I am black, oh well. My wife feels the same about black people.
I believe some people need healing and what we can do is help them work through that, and as you said love, but I do feel loved by white people in my church. I have dinner with them, I work with them, I pray with them, what more do I need?
GH
Thank you Greg
Several people have made the comments that they are in an interracial marriage, they attend a church of different races, their neighbors are of different races, their friends are of different races. But Gayle you ignore all of those post and repeat the broad post grouping people into one category. Gayle your statements come across as every person who is white is racist. Nevermind all of the posts that give you examples of just the opposite.
< Message edited by Acts29 -- 11/1/2007 8:13:35 PM >
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/1/2007 8:57:43 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 334
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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Part of my passion in life is to help people become better communicators and have better relationships. Part of communication is asking the tough questions, so we can get tough answers and I don't see that here, it really pains me. I would love to come together ans help those who feel hurt, or oppressed but they have to be willing to let go and let God. We have to learn and cope with what was, live in what is and press on to what can be.
Blessings,
GH
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 12:56:00 PM
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Matt Smith
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I've got some personal experiences and also there's a ton of relevant research... on how race affects one's chances of being hired for a job, how it affects pay, access to housing, etc etc. I'm going to focus on the statistics, because that's what reveals just how prevalent this problem is.
In the other thread, I shared a report about inequalities in access to housing. The US Dept of Housing and Urban Development found that race was a factor in approx. 20% of all cases. This included telling people "no vacancy" in an apartment house based on their race, or offering less assistance when people of color were looking at mortgage options so they'd be able to buy a home.
There's also a study by professors of economics at the U of Chicago and MIT, where they sent in job applications with equivalent qualifications, differentiated only by names that sounded either Anglo or Black. The resumes with Anglo names were 50% more likely to get an interview. link to article They found the same even in businesses with a commitment to equal opportunity. So much for reverse racism. Interestingly, the businesses located in Black communities were more likely to judge fairly based on qualifications.
So at this one initial stage of the employment process, racism can already have a significant effect. Of course, it will rarely be clear to any individual job applicant whether race was a factor or not. All they know is, for some reason they didn't get called for an interview.
Because the individual cases of racism are so hard to pin down -- and because we know they're happening, because of all the research -- a reactive approach is not sufficient. What will truly promote healing, IMHO, is a commitment from people to be proactive about fighting racism, the same way we'd be concerned about any other injustice.
I also want to point out: Racism is not always conscious or overt. It can be subtle. It can be unintentional. This is another reason I don't think it's sufficient to wait around for some obvious example to address on an individual level -- but to be proactive in educating people about the problem and taking a stand.
Matt
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
I think inequalities really do exist because of racism.
Could you be more specific? What inequalities? Any personal experiences? How often does this happen?
Are these people who are rude...or are these people keeping your from a job, or advancement, or entry to a business or social event?
Is this more of an issue of insensitivity...or can these instances be demonstrated as actual cases of illegal activities?
Can you say from experience that racism is something that makes you uncomfortable...or is it something that keeps your income down, your advancement retarded, your relationships hindered?
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 2:13:36 PM
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lw9
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Matt Smith:
The OP is this:
quote:
Ok, lets forget about all that, and forget what you hear and what you hear in the news about racial problems.
But the one question I want to know is that how both black and white christians can foster healing and understanding among one another?
This is not a thread about racism at large in the world, and all you've cited are statistics and experiences from the world rather than what's happening or not happening among black and white Christians. Can we stick to that topic, please?
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 2:47:30 PM
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lw9
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gayle:
There's too many vague statements with no specifics for me to even address the problems and then suggest a solution. Can you please explain some of the things you've presented here so far. My questions so far are:
- Post #55: You said there are racial problems that plague the church. Can you be more specific and explain in more detail what you see as the problems?
- Post #25: Do you feel that there aren't enough blacks in leadership positions because of racial discrimination? In your view, if a church doesn't have a black person in leadership, does that mean that particular church is racially discriminatory?
- Post #25 & #28: Do you feel that every church should incorporate every style of worship and every style of music [like black gospel], otherwise they are racially discriminatory and building barriers?
- Post #25 & #43: Are there churches that do not accept all colors in their worship? If so, how is this done?
I'm asking these questions because I honestly don't know your perspective on these issues and how you are defining racism in the church.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 8:15:36 PM
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lightshineon
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Whatever it maybe worth, here is my humble opinion. first i will start with a story i was saying the other day to someone, a very bad thing. i was telling them why can't blacks talk in the proper way, the we were talking about black names. I said something my friend ( black)had not named thier children Kaneshia(sp) things like that, and how I admired her for that.
When the person left i was talking too. I was at once convicted by the Holy Spirt. I felt that he spoke to my heart saying " Love people, for who and what they are." I understood that. I felt great sorrow in my heart. I apologize to all black people for that hidden sin and opening my dumb mouth.
Black people, be patient with us that are learning. Please do not be so quick to jump on the bandwagon. Do not stand for wrong, though a black person did it against a white person. Do not be so ready to follow the lead of some black leaders who permote discord.
White people, maybe we should pray amd not have pre-concieved notions, that everything is just blacks, whininn about injustice. There is still predudice, and injustice, which maybe in our own hearts, like mine that I did not understand. I am not a know it all, and this may not apply to anyone but me. like I said this is written in humility, and the way I understand things.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 11/2/2007 8:23:11 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 9:59:06 PM
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SonInMe1
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I think there is a ton of light on white prejudice.
Maybe I want equal time.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 10:32:44 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 334
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
I've got some personal experiences and also there's a ton of relevant research... on how race affects one's chances of being hired for a job, how it affects pay, access to housing, etc etc. I'm going to focus on the statistics, because that's what reveals just how prevalent this problem is.
But that's not what this topic is about. I am not denying that racism exists, I am black, I know it does. but we are talking about healing brother to brother and sister to sister. If thereis a problem one to another then we need to adress each other one to another.
GH
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/2/2007 10:39:34 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
I've got some personal experiences and also there's a ton of relevant research... on how race affects one's chances of being hired for a job, how it affects pay, access to housing, etc etc. I'm going to focus on the statistics, because that's what reveals just how prevalent this problem is.
But that's not what this topic is about. I am not denying that racism exists, I am black, I know it does. but we are talking about healing brother to brother and sister to sister. If thereis a problem one to another then we need to adress each other one to another.
GH
I'm wondering what this thread is about really. I know what the OP says, but there were a bunch of threads about different facets of racism, and they were ALL closed and directed to this thread. But the OP in this thread and the ones that were directed here are not the same...
Maybe that's why we're talking about all kinds of stuff in this thread.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/3/2007 12:40:39 AM
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Acts29
Posts: 355
Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
I've got some personal experiences and also there's a ton of relevant research... on how race affects one's chances of being hired for a job, how it affects pay, access to housing, etc etc. I'm going to focus on the statistics, because that's what reveals just how prevalent this problem is.
But that's not what this topic is about. I am not denying that racism exists, I am black, I know it does. but we are talking about healing brother to brother and sister to sister. If thereis a problem one to another then we need to adress each other one to another.
GH
As far as I can see it dealing with it as it happens within our life. I cannot do something about a racial situation if I do not even live in the same city.
I have two main issues with this thread.
1. It seems to me that the statistics, and general statements only reflect one race. There are other races that have must face different forms injustice. I think each one of us know of a time when we felt the sting of discrimination. Such as an overweight person was not hired women's dress shop as a sales person. They hired the someone who was very thin. That is a form of discrimination that could affect anyone of any skin color.
2. I am not real sure what the original poster is really expecting. I see a lot of accusations made towards white people. Because of these accusations, and broad general comments I am beginning to wonder if there is not some racism going on regarding Gayle's part in this so called great divide.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/3/2007 12:48:45 AM
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Acts29
Posts: 355
Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Matt Smith
I've got some personal experiences and also there's a ton of relevant research... on how race affects one's chances of being hired for a job, how it affects pay, access to housing, etc etc. I'm going to focus on the statistics, because that's what reveals just how prevalent this problem is.
In the other thread, I shared a report about inequalities in access to housing. The US Dept of Housing and Urban Development found that race was a factor in approx. 20% of all cases. This included telling people "no vacancy" in an apartment house based on their race, or offering less assistance when people of color were looking at mortgage options so they'd be able to buy a home.
There's also a study by professors of economics at the U of Chicago and MIT, where they sent in job applications with equivalent qualifications, differentiated only by names that sounded either Anglo or Black. The resumes with Anglo names were 50% more likely to get an interview. link to article They found the same even in businesses with a commitment to equal opportunity. So much for reverse racism. Interestingly, the businesses located in Black communities were more likely to judge fairly based on qualifications.
So at this one initial stage of the employment process, racism can already have a significant effect. Of course, it will rarely be clear to any individual job applicant whether race was a factor or not. All they know is, for some reason they didn't get called for an interview.
Because the individual cases of racism are so hard to pin down -- and because we know they're happening, because of all the research -- a reactive approach is not sufficient. What will truly promote healing, IMHO, is a commitment from people to be proactive about fighting racism, the same way we'd be concerned about any other injustice.
I also want to point out: Racism is not always conscious or overt. It can be subtle. It can be unintentional. This is another reason I don't think it's sufficient to wait around for some obvious example to address on an individual level -- but to be proactive in educating people about the problem and taking a stand.
Matt
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
I think inequalities really do exist because of racism.
Could you be more specific? What inequalities? Any personal experiences? How often does this happen?
Are these people who are rude...or are these people keeping your from a job, or advancement, or entry to a business or social event?
Is this more of an issue of insensitivity...or can these instances be demonstrated as actual cases of illegal activities?
Can you say from experience that racism is something that makes you uncomfortable...or is it something that keeps your income down, your advancement retarded, your relationships hindered?
What are your personal experiences?
quote:
So much for reverse racism. That comment was not needed in a "How can we promote healing among christians, black and white" thread. I do not believe it helps promote healing of any sort. The statistic you used said 50% of whites were more likely to get an interview. What happened to the other 50 whites who did not get an interview. Also that statistics could just as easily stated 50 % blacks got an interview. In other words it was 50 - 50 which appears to me its equal.
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/3/2007 8:18:57 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3621
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Lets say the ration of blacks to whites in the USA is 20% black and 80% white...
why would a 50/50 situation be racist...against blacks? It would seem it is racist against the majority, whites....eh?
We cannot promote healing between blacks and whites in or out of the church until this victimhood status dies away.
IF you have been truly desciminated against, sue. It IS your responsibility to your race to do so IF you have been descriminated against. There is no doubt...people will try to get away with all kinds of stuff if we do not stand up to them.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: How Can We Promote Healing Among Christians, Black ... - 11/3/2007 10:16:53 AM
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Acts29
Posts: 355
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
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The example he gave was from a statistic with a select number of people. I am replying to the example he used. Basically according to his example the glass is half empty but it could be half full.
SonInMe1 If the ration blacks to whites is 20 % black to 80 % white then are you saying the hiring should be 50 - 50 or should it reflect the USA ration of 20 - 80. I am trying to understand your logic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Lets say the ration of blacks to whites in the USA is 20% black and 80% white...
why would a 50/50 situation be racist...against blacks? It would seem it is racist against the majority, whites....eh?
We cannot promote healing between blacks and whites in or out of the church until this victimhood status dies away.
IF you have been truly desciminated against, sue. It IS your responsibility to your race to do so IF you have been descriminated against. There is no doubt...people will try to get away with all kinds of stuff if we do not stand up to them.
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