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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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[Poll]
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How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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| Pre-Trib |
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| Post-trib |
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| Mid-trib |
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Total Votes : 173
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(last vote on : 11/18/2009 2:31:20 PM)
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 8/30/2009 12:40:05 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdodsworth
I used to not care about the time of the rapture, because no matter what when it happens we will know.
But then one Sunday my pastor brought up a great point, he went thru the bible and explained how before every major judgment in the Old Testament, ok im not sure ALL but like the flood, Sodom and Gomorra, God brought his people OUT OF THE SITUATION before the judgment. Noah and his family escaped wrath, and so did Lot. I am still reading NT so I can’t say I know much more than that. Input anyone...?
Greetings
quote:
God brought his people OUT OF THE SITUATION before the judgment. Noah and his family escaped wrath, and so did Lot. I am still reading NT so i cant say i know much more than that. input anyone...?
Look at these principals for a moment...
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father ... therefore while He is sitting at that right hand OF POWER...we the church are commissioned and are to be His mouth piece on earth...
Col 3:1 - Show Context
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, ….where Christ is , =sitting ...at ....the right hand of God.
Now when He gets up from that right hand of power and comes again= for the Church... an opposite occurs ......whereby during this time, when and if we were raised with Christ = we were to seek those things which are above, where Christ is, = ...sitting at the right hand of God.
In principal ....when He comes again to receives us to Himself ... He is no longer in that place ...sitting at the right hand of God.... therefore we no longer seek those things which are above, where Christ is,
He will leave His place at the right hand of power as He has promised … therefore.... He has to leave that place to receive us to Himself;
These in principal are the opposites….being raised with Christ, is when we seek those things which are above ... and is an opposite...to when He leaves His place to come again and receive us to Himself.... it is not the same as when we seek those things which are above … it’s the opposite.
Therefore....because He leaves that place to come again and receive us to Himself =
He leaves that place… to come again =
=3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; ….that where I am, = (sitting at the right hand of God).... there.... “You may be” …also.
Now here is the flip side...
Isa 26:21 - Show Context
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth… “for their iniquity:”…. the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Here… we have 2 very different prophecies…
1 ….is the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth…
And the 2nd is….
Jesus saying I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where… “I am”, = (is not on the earth) = (AND IS)....there = (Sitting at the right hand of God) = “you will be” …also.
If one can see these opposites, then we know what Paul is speaking of here...
1Th 5:9 - Show Context
For God hath not appointed us to wrath , but to obtain salvation ...by our Lord Jesus Christ,
…..Not through … our Lord Jesus Christ BUT …. by our Lord Jesus Christ… = Himself
So….when Jesus comes to receive us.. to “Himself” …BECAUSE= God hath not appointed us to wrath ………, that salvation has come BY our Lord Jesus Christ... and is of what is written in John 14:1-3
Therefore = when Jesus comes to receive us to Himself …
In like manner… by its opposite...
God comes “out of his” place…. to punish the inhabitants of the earth
= because God hath not appointed us to wrath ,
Can one see those opposites?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 8/30/2009 2:29:32 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
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Makes perfect sense to me LG...from what you say, Messiah must return for the Church about the same time he comes to punish the earth. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 8/30/2009 7:55:04 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
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Shalom (or should I say, "Chaire?"), Robertblog.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robertblog
I believe, as I am studying ;End of the world, which actually is a translation error. There are 3 Greek names for world ; Aion,kosmos, and oikoumene. In Matthew ; Christ spoke of the Greek word ; Aion, meaning in Greek; End of Age. God's Covenant with Noah was never to completely wipe out life on the face of the earth again. I believe G-d's wrath is coming to the world[including the U.S.], but as He led Lot , and his family from Sodom and Gommorrah, so will He remove the Gentile Church, and seal the foreheads of the 144,000 Jews from His wrath. God's signature becomes new from old, but never changes! In the Peace Of Yehoshua; Jesus Christ, Robert; Check out Jews for Jesus Forum!I believe though we will see some judgement, as the righteous sometimes suffer with the unrighteous!
The Greek word "aioon" (I use two O's {oo} to represent an omega to differentiate it from the omicron {o}) just simply means "age," not "end of age." "Kosmos" means "world-system" (a.k.a. political systems), and "oikoumenee" (again, two E's {ee} for eta, one E {e} for epsilon) means The "Occupation," as in the "occupied land" of the Roman Empire. When Yeshua` (Yehoshua`), haSar Shalom, spoke of the "end of the age," in Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; and 28:20, He was speaking about a single age, either the present age (as in Matthew 28:20) or the future age, the Millennium (as in the parables of Matthew 13). In any case, you're right about the mistranslation. "World" was NOT a good word to use in these verses.
I do appreciate Jews for Jesus; however, we should take careful note that Jews are not grafted into the Church; instead, we all--Jew and Gentile--are grafted into the OLIVE TREE, the Messiah's Isra'el, the same Isra'el that was the Kingdom for His ancestor-kings, Daviyd, Shlomo, R'chav`am, etc. (Rom. 11) That's why (although I don't believe in everything they say and do) I believe that Messianic Congregations are more what God had in mind.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 8/30/2009 10:43:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
I believe G-d's wrath is coming to the world
Hi Robert...I understand you have broken you arm and the pain is great so maybe you are unable to answer this question...I'll ask anyway in case you can answer.
You see the wrath of God coming but at what stage of the last week does it appear in your opinion? And I guess I'll ask also...what does it entail?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/2/2009 7:22:16 PM
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Chip442
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I think too many people take things way out of context on their use of scriptures,,, I believe that every scripture in its original language is writen by God Himself using man as Hi pen,,, and that every scripture is true,,, the key for me is not always in what is said but is also what is not said,,, every scripture will be fulfilled but I think it more than likely to be a surprise in its fulfillment just as it was the last time Jesus came and died on the cross for us,,, Most of the scholars and religious people at that time rejected Jesus because He did not look like their theories and that is still the danger today,,, We must be very careful as to what we teach and preach and must not teach theory but cling to the truth that we know ,,, We must know Jesus loves us and came to save us us by way of the cross ,,, this is a truth that any real Christian cannot deny or they are not Christians in proper salvation within Christ,,, a truth is greater than just temporal facts they must be eternal and without the confines of time space and matter,,, where mere facts are relegated to be within time space and matter So to me when we look at when Jesus coming we must not go beyond the scripture and think of it as a truth,,, while I belive it is ok to have a theory on the subject you must not be married or limit your mind to just your theory,,, The main thing is stay close to Jesus in a One on one relationship, so close to Him thet when He stops you will run into Him then you can never miss Him no matter if He comes pre, mid or post,,,, Now that being said I will post my "Theory" which is that when He comes we will meet him in the air as in old times when the people would meet the king outside the gates of the city and usher him into the city with much parade and fanfare, then after meeting Him in the air He will rule a 1000yrs,,, I say all this because I do not see in scripture where His people are completely removed from any situation but they go though it but they are greatly protected by God in the middle of trials, tribulation and trouble,,, as like in Egypt they we protected but not taken away,,,, then when the 1000yrs are fulfilled ( the Sabbath of the earth) then we will be taken away with Christ and the earth is either completely destroyed or it is melted and reformed into a New Earth and a New Heaven then New Jerusalem will descend to the earth and we dwell with our God But as I said before one must not be married to a theory,,, I would much rather see a pre-trib taking away if I had a vote on the subject but God will fulfill every scripture and we will be with Him no matter which theory will happen so I am content with knowing He is in-charge
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/2/2009 7:35:46 PM
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yohannan
Posts: 265
Joined: 2/23/2009
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And Amen, for how would we mere peoples here among the earth be considered more worthy when not standing a similar trial which was faced by Elijah where the King where He was born among as a Tishbite had ordered the Prophets to be killed?
If one would stand with these in a similar situation, would they not receive a similar reward for the ones that are not against are for us?
Therefore there will come a time of the trial of the mark of the delusion of the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet who implements this restricted worship commerce form to himself along with a confirmed covenant with ten worldwide leaders who had not previously held Leadership in the Empire(s) which will last for 1335 days and then the feasts of the trumpets will be issued out upon those who take the mark as written in Revelation fulfillment desolation decree.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chip442
I think too many people take things way out of context on their use of scriptures,,, I believe that every scripture in its original language is writen by God Himself using man as Hi pen,,, and that every scripture is true,,, the key for me is not always in what is said but is also what is not said,,, every scripture will be fulfilled but I think it more than likely to be a surprise in its fulfillment just as it was the last time Jesus came and died on the cross for us,,, Most of the scholars and religious people at that time rejected Jesus because He did not look like their theories and that is still the danger today,,, We must be very careful as to what we teach and preach and must not teach theory but cling to the truth that we know ,,, We must know Jesus loves us and came to save us us by way of the cross ,,, this is a truth that any real Christian cannot deny or they are not Christians in proper salvation within Christ,,, a truth is greater than just temporal facts they must be eternal and without the confines of time space and matter,,, where mere facts are relegated to be within time space and matter So to me when we look at when Jesus coming we must not go beyond the scripture and think of it as a truth,,, while I belive it is ok to have a theory on the subject you must not be married or limit your mind to just your theory,,, The main thing is stay close to Jesus in a One on one relationship, so close to Him thet when He stops you will run into Him then you can never miss Him no matter if He comes pre, mid or post,,,, Now that being said I will post my "Theory" which is that when He comes we will meet him in the air as in old times when the people would meet the king outside the gates of the city and usher him into the city with much parade and fanfare, then after meeting Him in the air He will rule a 1000yrs,,, I say all this because I do not see in scripture where His people are completely removed from any situation but they go though it but they are greatly protected by God in the middle of trials, tribulation and trouble,,, as like in Egypt they we protected but not taken away,,,, then when the 1000yrs are fulfilled ( the Sabbath of the earth) then we will be taken away with Christ and the earth is either completely destroyed or it is melted and reformed into a New Earth and a New Heaven then New Jerusalem will descend to the earth and we dwell with our God But as I said before one must not be married to a theory,,, I would much rather see a pre-trib taking away if I had a vote on the subject but God will fulfill every scripture and we will be with Him no matter which theory will happen so I am content with knowing He is in-charge
< Message edited by yohannan -- 9/2/2009 7:42:54 PM >
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/12/2009 8:34:18 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 663
Joined: 11/13/2007
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Won't the Holy Spirit be removed from the earth before the Great Tribulation? If so, how could believers remain on the earth since the Holy Spirit lives in them? This may have been discussed before but I haven't seen it or else I don't remember it.
Also, why does it matter what other believers or prophets have suffered in the past? In the Book of John, Jesus told the Apostles that it shouldn't matter to them what each other's future would be, whether some would be martyrs and others would remain until His return. That is His decision and He apparently has different purposes for different times.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/14/2009 12:40:01 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Milliecat.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Won't the Holy Spirit be removed from the earth before the Great Tribulation? If so, how could believers remain on the earth since the Holy Spirit lives in them? This may have been discussed before but I haven't seen it or else I don't remember it.
Also, why does it matter what other believers or prophets have suffered in the past? In the Book of John, Jesus told the Apostles that it shouldn't matter to them what each other's future would be, whether some would be martyrs and others would remain until His return. That is His decision and He apparently has different purposes for different times.
Sorry, but that is an INTERPRETATION of a rather obscure passage:
2 Thess 2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV
It is ASSUMED by premillennialists, particularly the pretribulation rapturists, that the "he" in this verse refers to the Holy Spirit....
HOWEVER, there are other interpretations of this verse! The first thing a believer should do is check out the Greek of the passage and its context. The context shows that this is all about a man who actively resists the Torah, the Instruction of God. Secondly, this is not about WHO will prevent him from being revealed but WHAT will prevent him from being revealed. Look at verse 6:
Verse 6 contains the same word translated as "letteth" or "prevents" in the word "withholdeth" or "holds back":
2 Thess 2:6
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
KJV
What holds him back is that the standing-away has to come first:
2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV
(Note also that in verse 3 the word "sin" above is that word "anomos" that means "against-Torah.")
Therefore, the Holy Spirit does NOT have to be taken out of the way first, as some teach. Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit is God who is omnipresent, how is that possible anyway?
I hope this has given you some food for thought and will help you as you grow.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/14/2009 11:03:49 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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The bible is quite clear...the gathering of the saints will occur in conjunction with the sign of the Day of the Lord;
Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is supported in Revelation 6:12-14 at the sign of the Day of the Lord, and then in 7:9 where the elect are gathered before the throne. This all occurs before the opening of the 7th seal.
Both of these descriptions are given by Christ. I for one am going to believe what He says.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/18/2009 8:06:42 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 663
Joined: 11/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Milliecat.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Won't the Holy Spirit be removed from the earth before the Great Tribulation? If so, how could believers remain on the earth since the Holy Spirit lives in them? This may have been discussed before but I haven't seen it or else I don't remember it.
Also, why does it matter what other believers or prophets have suffered in the past? In the Book of John, Jesus told the Apostles that it shouldn't matter to them what each other's future would be, whether some would be martyrs and others would remain until His return. That is His decision and He apparently has different purposes for different times.
Sorry, but that is an INTERPRETATION of a rather obscure passage:
2 Thess 2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV
It is ASSUMED by premillennialists, particularly the pretribulation rapturists, that the "he" in this verse refers to the Holy Spirit....
HOWEVER, there are other interpretations of this verse! The first thing a believer should do is check out the Greek of the passage and its context. The context shows that this is all about a man who actively resists the Torah, the Instruction of God. Secondly, this is not about WHO will prevent him from being revealed but WHAT will prevent him from being revealed. Look at verse 6:
Verse 6 contains the same word translated as "letteth" or "prevents" in the word "withholdeth" or "holds back":
2 Thess 2:6
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
KJV
What holds him back is that the standing-away has to come first:
2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV
(Note also that in verse 3 the word "sin" above is that word "anomos" that means "against-Torah.")
Therefore, the Holy Spirit does NOT have to be taken out of the way first, as some teach. Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit is God who is omnipresent, how is that possible anyway?
I hope this has given you some food for thought and will help you as you grow.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Thank you for your thoughts, Roy. I will study further.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/21/2009 1:27:19 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
The bible is quite clear...the gathering of the saints will occur in conjunction with the sign of the Day of the Lord;
Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is supported in Revelation 6:12-14 at the sign of the Day of the Lord, and then in 7:9 where the elect are gathered before the throne. This all occurs before the opening of the 7th seal.
Both of these descriptions are given by Christ. I for one am going to believe what He says.
Bob
Ditto...............
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/21/2009 2:03:36 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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There is another truth that people tend to ignore...Christ does not come back in secret, He returns visible to the whole world and then the Saints are gathered;
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:29 (KJV)
What tribulation are we talking about here? It's the tribulation brought upon the world by the Antichrist beginning at the middle of the week.
What is the meaning of the dark sun and the moon not giving light? It's the sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord...Gods wrath upon the wicked of the world.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
Christ returns for His Saints in view of the whole world and everyone sees Him. This is supported in Rev 6;
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)
How can anyone not understand the words of Jesus Christ...He wrote Matthew and Revelation both...these are His words. The gathering of the Church occurs at the Sign of the Son of Man, at the beginning of the Great Day of Gods wrath.
In Messiah...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/21/2009 3:06:36 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 671
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Mid-trib for me.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/21/2009 3:41:24 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 671
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crossbearer777
also what scriptural reasons do you have to believe what you believe about the rapture?
Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation
6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, F6 when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Edit to add: I don't believe the first 3-1/2 years of the seven-year countdown will be much worse than our world is right now. I believe the Rapture will occur simultaneously with 6:12, the great earthquake.
< Message edited by Pat-rebel_lady -- 9/21/2009 3:53:11 PM >
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/29/2009 8:04:36 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 153
Joined: 7/31/2009
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With the pre -tribs holding a pluarity of 43% on the vote, I can see this thread isn't stacked with five point Amillennialist Calvinists!
I know of some discussion boards that are. In fact if you announce you are Pre trib they will jump on you like flies on honey and chew you up from belly to brisket!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/29/2009 8:13:09 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 153
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
There is another truth that people tend to ignore...Christ does not come back in secret, He returns visible to the whole world and then the Saints are gathered;
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:29 (KJV)
What tribulation are we talking about here? It's the tribulation brought upon the world by the Antichrist beginning at the middle of the week.
What is the meaning of the dark sun and the moon not giving light? It's the sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord...Gods wrath upon the wicked of the world.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
Christ returns for His Saints in view of the whole world and everyone sees Him. This is supported in Rev 6;
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)
How can anyone not understand the words of Jesus Christ...He wrote Matthew and Revelation both...these are His words. The gathering of the Church occurs at the Sign of the Son of Man, at the beginning of the Great Day of Gods wrath.
In Messiah...
Bob
Bob,
The classical Pre Trib will tell you Christ never talked about a secret Rapture for He was dealing with Jews and ONLY talked about His 2nd coming in Glory (at the end of the Tribulation). The 2nd Coming is for Jews, whereas Paul talked to the Church about the Rapture for the church or snatching. I've heard the Post Trib arguments such as Eldon Ladd (The Blessed Hope) and Robert Gundry (post mill), however I am still Pre Trib and I suppose you will tell me I haven't seen the light on this subject. Now for the Amill it is completely different as the church has been in tribulation for 2000 years, however they say Jesus came in Judgement in 70AD on Jerusalem, using the Romans as His instruments. A good Amill theologian is Sam Storms. He says the 70th week of Daniel ended with the stoning of St. Stephen.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/29/2009 8:28:49 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 153
Joined: 7/31/2009
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I just got on Sam Storm's website. I stand corrected as seen from the quote, however some Amills do believe the 70th week ended with the stoning of Stephen.
Here is the link: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/91-27/
According to the conclusions reached above, the first half of Daniel's 70th week runs from the baptism of Jesus to 70 a.d. The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 a.d. is the middle of the week, and the present church age is its latter half. Kline concurs and summarizes as follows:
'When we survey the fulfillment of Gabriel's prophecy from our vantage point, it appears that the last half of the 70th week is the age of the community of the new covenant, disengaged from the old covenant order with whose closing days its own beginnings overlapped for a generation. In the imagery of the NT Apocalypse, the last half week is the age of the church in the wilderness of the nations for a time, and times, and half a time (Rev. 12:14). Since the 70 weeks are 10 jubilee eras that issue in the last jubilee, the 70th week closes with the angelic trumpeting of the earth's redemption and the glorious liberty of the children of God. The acceptable year of the Lord which came with Christ will then have fully come."
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 9/29/2009 9:28:50 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
I am still Pre Trib and I suppose you will tell me I haven't seen the light on this subject.
That's good William...now I don't have to tell you that! 
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/16/2009 2:18:19 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, WilliamtheConqueror.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamtheConqueror
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
There is another truth that people tend to ignore...Christ does not come back in secret, He returns visible to the whole world and then the Saints are gathered;
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Matthew 24:29 (KJV)
What tribulation are we talking about here? It's the tribulation brought upon the world by the Antichrist beginning at the middle of the week.
What is the meaning of the dark sun and the moon not giving light? It's the sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord...Gods wrath upon the wicked of the world.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
Christ returns for His Saints in view of the whole world and everyone sees Him. This is supported in Rev 6;
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)
How can anyone not understand the words of Jesus Christ...He wrote Matthew and Revelation both...these are His words. The gathering of the Church occurs at the Sign of the Son of Man, at the beginning of the Great Day of Gods wrath.
In Messiah...
Bob
Bob,
The classical Pre Trib will tell you Christ never talked about a secret Rapture for He was dealing with Jews and ONLY talked about His 2nd coming in Glory (at the end of the Tribulation). The 2nd Coming is for Jews, whereas Paul talked to the Church about the Rapture for the church or snatching. I've heard the Post Trib arguments such as Eldon Ladd (The Blessed Hope) and Robert Gundry (post mill), however I am still Pre Trib and I suppose you will tell me I haven't seen the light on this subject. Now for the Amill it is completely different as the church has been in tribulation for 2000 years, however they say Jesus came in Judgement in 70AD on Jerusalem, using the Romans as His instruments. A good Amill theologian is Sam Storms. He says the 70th week of Daniel ended with the stoning of St. Stephen.
I know this is kind of a "late hit," so to speak, but just want you to know that there's nothing wrong with being pre-trib. I was a pre-trib person from the time I was saved at the age of 6 to a few years after my Bible college days. However, my studies lead me to a different conclusion after a time. How and when the Holy Spirit works with you is in His hands, not ours. All we can do is give you our testimonies how God has lead us in our studies and let you make up your own Spirit-lead mind. It's all a matter of His timing.
What made the change in my studies was when I discovered that the word "heaven" is NEVER used for the concept of an "ethereal, non-physical, supernatural place" as many Christians believe "Heaven" to be. Instead, I have learned that the word "heaven" is most often translated from the Greek word "ouranos" which means "the sky," with only a very few being from the word "epouranios" meaning "from above the sky." When I locked those simple definitions in my thinking, my reading of the passages I always had used for proof texts of the pre-trib position changed, and my arguments for pre-trib became more and more dependent on my theological stance and less and less dependent of Scripture!
That really bothered me until I had to make a change in what I believed. The irony is that I found out so many things about the Scriptures in my study that NONE of the current stances were right on every point! I really don't consider myself pre-trib, post-trib, pre-Wrath, partial rapturist, or anything! They ALL made mistakes in their basic formulation. Preterism has its own set of errors. Amillennialism is FAR too allegorical for my tastes, and Postmillennialism is just wishful thinking. The biggest mistake all of the Premillennialists made, IMO, is that we have "seven years of tribulation" coming. However, preterism is also wrong, thinking that they somehow ended at the stoning of Stephen!
No, Yeshua` (Jesus) made it quite clear in Matthew 23:37-39 that the count was indeed postponed until the Jews, particularly those of Jerusalem, say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," which was translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." I took some Hebrew at a Messianic Synagogue and have studied it on my own for a number of years, and I can tell you that the phrase "Baruwk haba'" is still commonly used today in a less formal setting. These are the words that a Jew will use in Isra'el to welcome someone into his or her home. Therefore, the intent of the phrase is "Welcome to one who comes on the authority of YHWH," "YHWH" being the actual NAME of the God of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`acov. This is what the children and the disciples sang as He entered Yerushalayim on a donkey's foal. But, the leaders of the people were a stubborn, jealous, and self-righteous lot. They rejected Him then, and through traditions and fear, they continue to reject Him to this day! However, through a number of contextual clues, I've come to believe that the first half of the last "week" of Dani'el was fulfilled in the 3-1/2 years of Yeshua`s ministry during His first advent. The last 3-1/2 years will be fulfilled with His second advent.
I am definitely premillennial and consider myself a literalist. So, what does that make me? I guess I'll have to settle for an "independent" title. Maybe that makes me a little like John McCain; although I'm a "maverick" of an entirely different breed. (LOL!)
I do not believe that God has to "take us out of this world" to keep us from Wrath. He has the ability to protect us THROUGH His Wrath, just as He did for the children of Isra'el in the land of Goshen in Egypt. They were supernaturally protected from the plagues, even to the point of starting a new holiday, Pesach or Passover.
Posttrib is pretty close to what I believe except that they, too, believe that for a very short time they will go to "Heaven." I cannot accept that because it doesn't mesh with Scripture entirely (for instance, the seven plagues come AFTER or at least DURING the Second Coming) nor does it explain why there would be such a "Rapture" at all! But, all in all, that's okay. I'm learning and growing in a constant state of flux, sifting things through the sifter of God's previous training in my life.
So, wherever you are on the spectrum of God's teaching, enjoy where you are and stay in the Scriptures! "Let God be true and every man a liar."
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/17/2009 10:04:42 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
You said: Posttrib is pretty close to what I believe except that they, too, believe that for a very short time they will go to "Heaven." I cannot accept that because it doesn't mesh with Scripture entirely (for instance, the seven plagues come AFTER or at least DURING the Second Coming) nor does it explain why there would be such a "Rapture" at all! But, all in all, that's okay. I'm learning and growing in a constant state of flux, sifting things through the sifter of God's previous training in my life.
Hope this helps: A post trib view shouldn't dogmatically insist on going to heaven for a short time. Some indeed say this, citing the great multitude in Rev.7. Grant you it is possible for God to do this in an instant of time, but more likely we should consider the following.
If you treat that scenario as a separate vision, it is simply looking forward to that Great Day like we see spoken of earlier when every creature in heaven, on earth, in the sea, under the earth etc. (Rev. 5:13) gives glory to God. The same day Paul spoke of saying "every knee shall bow, every tongue swear that Jesus Christ is Lord..."
"Explain why there would be a rapture at all..."??? The scriptures say so for a short answer. We must be transformed to be in His Kingdom. It simultaneously requires a resurrection too. We wouldn't want to just leave folks in the grave now.
Lastly, I see I see the 7plagues as concurrent with the seals and trumpets.
God (will) bless you!
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/21/2009 11:44:45 AM
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raysnchrist
Posts: 12
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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I subscribe to the possibility of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church.
I understand that certain prohetic instances must first take place before the coming of the day of the Lord.
I do not beleive that Christ's second coming will be at the begining of the 7 year period.
It is clear that the abomination of desolation must first take place.
This will occur at the mid week of the 7 year period.
Thus, after this shall be great tribulation.
Then the last of the trumpets shall sound before the bowls are unleashed , that is, before the wrath of God upon the ungodly, where no believer will have to go through.
"We are not appointed unto wrath..."
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/21/2009 2:55:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Ray how did you come about your understanding of a pre wrath rapture of the Church? Is this from your own studies or something taught from another?
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/21/2009 3:52:59 PM
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raysnchrist
Posts: 12
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
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I have held this view for quite some time. I did read a book regarding this topic. I have read many books regarding the topic of the rapture. My studies in the books of the bible with Mathew, Revelation and Daniel at the pinnacle along with much prayers seem to coincide with that of Pre-Wrath.
Lord Bless
Keep Sight for the Son.
< Message edited by raysnchrist -- 10/21/2009 3:59:44 PM >
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/21/2009 8:02:19 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raysnchrist
I have held this view for quite some time. I did read a book regarding this topic. I have read many books regarding the topic of the rapture. My studies in the books of the bible with Mathew, Revelation and Daniel at the pinnacle along with much prayers seem to coincide with that of Pre-Wrath.
Lord Bless
Keep Sight for the Son.
Greetings,
quote:
My studies in the books of the bible with Mathew, Revelation and Daniel at the pinnacle along with much prayers seem to coincide with that of Pre-Wrath.
Dan 9:27
he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring “an end to” sacrifice ….
…….What sacrifice means here is we give up our flesh for the things of the Sprit = for the revelation of the Father or the promise of God
The falling away that occurs before the middle of the week are those =2 Peter 3 >that are abandoning those things that are hard to understand…=which means giving up revealed truth
Part 2
he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring “an end to” sacrifice “and offering”
Sacrifice and offering means… “all things ” that pertain to Christ, (not just giving up revealed truth)
AND….that .....shall continue.... “Even until the consummation”, which is determined, ......is poured out on the desolate."
......This is not pre-trib rapture 
Pre-trib revelation is what occurs before the falling a way or BEFORE the covenant is confirmed with MANY...
In the Spirit... Pre-trib is written in patterns that occure beforehand... for example
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from FALLING, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now ...and... forever. Amen.
If one is not presented faultless Before the presence of His glory, BEFORE the covenant is confirmed =(with the devil)... it will not be with exceeding joy that they will suffer through tribulation.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 10/21/2009 8:25:19 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 10/23/2009 3:44:22 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 153
Joined: 7/31/2009
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Robert Gundry in The Church and the Tribulation (1974), espouses the Post Tribulational viewpoint. He allegedly solves the dilemma of who will enter the millennium in their natural bodies by claiming that "they shall look upon Him whom they pierced.." (I believe that is in Ezekiel but I could be wrong) will repent when they see Christ coming in the clouds and thus will not be destroyed with the rest of the world. He says these will make up the 144,000 who enter the millennium in natural bodies. Ryrie wrote a rebuttal to this in Bib Sac in 1974.
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