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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 12:19:53 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 329
Joined: 7/14/2005
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Thanks, Peter. You cannot imagine how many times I have had to pray over this and still feel guilty because I cannot feel forgiveness no matter how often I voice it before the Lord.
I do wish I could stop feeling the fear and other negative things, tho. Intellectually I can reason that most white men are not like the 2 who brutalized me, but I can't get my heart to reason that. I can control it to the point that you would not know I felt any fear or anxiety but it is still there. The way someone smells can really set it off, and I have an exceptionally keen sense of smell. I know it isn't PC to say so but groups of people have similar kinds of scents and there's something about that which triggers those memories in me. To this day I can remember how they smelled- their clothes, their skin, their aftershave or cologne. The faintest whiff of something similar and my whole system goes into fight-or-flight alert.
It's the nightmares that are the worst, tho, as when I am asleep I cannot control my responses. I know I'm dreaming but I can't wake myself up. And when I do I am in full fear response so I have gotten no rest. This is common when people have been traumatized, especially children. I've heard it called night terrors, too.
Like I said, the experience has colored my views and I will be the first to admit that it has in some ways made me racist towards white men (not white women, tho). I do not feel the same anxiety or negativity towards men of other ethnic groups. I'm married and have kids, and my husband- who is Native- and I have a very satisfying sex life. I have friends of all kinds, except for white men. I don't know how to reconcile this thing or overcome it. It bothers me, to be sure, and I wish things were different.
John, I hope you do not lump all of us Native people in with the one who raped your child, any more than you wouldn't want me lumping you in with the men who raped me. Regardless of how we look, we are all made in God's image and we are all decended from Adam and Eve, which means we are supposed to be brothers and sisters. Unfortunately, we are all human which seems to make that impossible.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 12:21:23 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 329
Joined: 7/14/2005
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Lexie, I think your kids are beautiful. I hope your MIL does too.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 12:57:12 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I agree John that there is NO EXCUSE for anyone committing sexual assault and it has long been my position that pedophiles should be put away for life. Personally, I wouldn't have cared if the guy who attacked you child had been my own brother, I probably would have killed him myself for what he did to a child. I am sorry for what your child and family have been going through- it wasn't right.
I believe you....
quote:
You did not say whether the man's tribe simply paid for his attorney(which in itself is not immoral or illegal) or whether they engaged in trying to harass your family(which would be both immoral and illegal) but if all they did was to pay for his attorney that wouldn't be any different from some rich family paying for their son's attorney. That's how the legal system works-if you have the money you can buy a good attorney and up your chances of getting off.
It wasn't his tribe... My nephew the pedophile is Cherokee and the locals are Pomo... To support a pedophlie in any form in my opinion is immoral. The lawyer was a paid liar who without cause and not held to any standards lied about my children in defense of a pedophile... Who later attempted to apologize for it...
quote:
At least the DA was willing to work with you. I was told by the police and the DA up in Idaho that no white man was going to be arrested or prosecuted for raping me despite the fact I knew my attackers(customers at the diner I was working at) and that they intended to kill me, not just rape me. As the cops put it, "No white man will ever be arrested for raping a squaw. That's how it is around here." The cops refused to take a report, and the DA said that if the police saw no reason to persue it neither did he. He also told me not to persue it any further or I might end up in the morgue.
Heh... The DA only was willing to work with me because I went to the State.. I was told to watch myself by the DA because I did so... 
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I had been severely injured and had to be stitched up inside, was bruised, choked, and had numerous fractures. I had been tortured and terrorized, even urinated on. I did nothing to warrant the attack, was not flirting with any of the customers, did not dress provocatively, nothing except that I was Native(per the comments made by the men who raped me). My pastor at the time even went to try to talk to these men and get them to see that what they had done was wrong and to at least apologize to me. They laughed and told him to tell me that the next time they'd finish what they started. I left Idaho soon after that.
I am truly sorry... I was raped by my friends older brother and his two buddies when I was about 10. They were black but I don't think the fact that I was white matter all that much, but I do know how you feel... Knowing that my parents would end up in jail if I spoke up I kept this to myself till my children were made victimes 30 years later...
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To this day I cannot be alone in a room with a white adult male without experiencing fear and anxiety, and my attackers have never seen a day in jail. That experience has colored a lot of my views, and made me very mistrustful of the so-called justice system as well. I could not bring myself to explain to people I went to church with(mostly white folks) why I would not go out with so-and-so or attend "singles" events. So-and-so may have been a fine Christian man, but the thought of a white man touching me made my skin crawl and my stomach knot up painfully- all I could see was those 2 who had raped and brutalized me.
I can understand why...
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Nor could I even begin to explain the shame, hatred, and rage I felt at being so brutally betrayed like that. It took years before I could even get past wanting to hunt those men down and kill them in the worst ways I could imagine. Sometimes I still have nightmares about it. Sometimes I'm not sure I wouldn't kill them or at least do them severe bodily harm if I ever crossed paths with them again.
You really need to let those thoughts go... You are letting those men continue to harm you and in some context in a even more worse way. Those thoughts while understandable are no less a barrier between you and what is right and that cannot be a good thing... I stood outside my parents house trying to push out the thoughts of ripping my nephew apart, something I could phyiscally do even under normal conditions... Yet... As I have so many times posted and talked about... God could have struck me down many times for my deeds... It's not my right to take HIS law into my hands and be the minister of His wrath... And of course... It's only His grace that I am not like my nephew... Have faith in God that He will deal with things. That's not a promise of a white man, that's His truth...
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Forgive them? I've asked the Lord to forgive them, but I do not feel it in my heart. I want justice of some kind, something to make things right. I would accept an apology from them, an admission that what they did to me was wrong, but I ain't holding my breath.
Forgive them and trust in the Lord to deal with those do such things... I know you have read this and probably been told to you many times, but it's true... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Forgive them in order that God who will have justice for the deeds done to you will be glorfied in that even though you were treated with no regard beyond words you stand for what is right in the sight of God. Remember, you have and do suffer for His sake, and I believe with all my heart that there is no greater sign that one is truly a child of the King. Rejoice in that fact and give thanks that God hasn't lifted His hand and allowed you to seek revenge and I pray He never will because it will not sooth what pains you...
John
Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/15/2008 7:53:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4478
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
John, I hope you do not lump all of us Native people in with the one who raped your child, any more than you wouldn't want me lumping you in with the men who raped me. Regardless of how we look, we are all made in God's image and we are all decended from Adam and Eve, which means we are supposed to be brothers and sisters. Unfortunately, we are all human which seems to make that impossible.
Nope...
John
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:12:47 PM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Is anyone going to attempt to answer my questions in post #491?
The answer is this: there is no recognition of the fact that all people experience racism. It has to be white belittling black or white belittling another "race". There is no realization that racism goes in all directions. Very sad that people cannot do a part without condemning society even though society in general has moved on.
I wonder what kind of thinking this is exactly. How is it that someone who has not met even half of the global populace can honestly say that "there is no recognition of the fact that all people experience racism"? Of course, there is so-called racism to be found in all ethnic groups against those who are different (and sometimes even those who are the same!). Discrimination rears its ugly head practically everywhere you go. Who are you to say that no one else has recognized this simple truth? It sounds to me that you don't like the idea of the white man being classified as the villain by blacks and other "races," when in fact there are bad apples in every single bunch you can think of.
Two scriptures come to mind here, though I don't recall the exact chapter and verse of each.
1.) God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man seweth, that shall he also reap.
2.) Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Not saying that it's right when a white person experiences what is sometimes referred to as "reverse discrimination," but isn't it more than a little ironic that the African people who were enslaved were themselves innocent of any wrongdoing to their captors, and likewise those who experienced segregation, hate crimes, etc., and now all these years later... there are those who are just as innocent of wrongdoings from the opposite side of the coin, but are nevertheless being wronged?
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:19:35 PM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
To add a new topic, I keep on thinking but afraid to bring it up, because this thread by its very nature is a very touchy subject, but what about reverse discrimination as well?
Good luck! I've tried to get some here to touch on that and they won't.
See previous post...
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:31:21 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
I wonder what kind of thinking this is exactly. How is it that someone who has not met even half of the global populace can honestly say that "there is no recognition of the fact that all people experience racism"?
It is a generality based upon the actions of society in legislation, etc. in recent years. Sorry I did not provide a certain percentage.
quote:
Of course, there is so-called racism to be found in all ethnic groups against those who are different (and sometimes even those who are the same!). Discrimination rears its ugly head practically everywhere you go. Who are you to say that no one else has recognized this simple truth?
I am THA MAN!!! 
quote:
It sounds to me that you don't like the idea of the white man being classified as the villain by blacks and other "races," when in fact there are bad apples in every single bunch you can think of.
That’s correct. I am a poor lil’ picked on white man. 
quote:
Two scriptures come to mind here, though I don't recall the exact chapter and verse of each.
1.) God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man seweth, that shall he also reap.
2.) Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
I am not sure why these are coming to your mind unless you are accusing me of oppressing some people.
quote:
Not saying that it's right when a white person experiences what is sometimes referred to as "reverse discrimination," but isn't it more than a little ironic that the African people who were enslaved were themselves innocent of any wrongdoing to their captors, and likewise those who experienced segregation, hate crimes, etc., and now all these years later... there are those who are just as innocent of wrongdoings from the opposite side of the coin, but are nevertheless being wronged?
It is not ironic. It is life. You yourself posted above that racism exists everywhere. A bit inconsistent aren’t you?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:46:44 PM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I am THA MAN!!!
Nice to meet you, MAN. I guess I'm the Man sitting next to THA MAN!!!
quote:
Two scriptures come to mind here, though I don't recall the exact chapter and verse of each.
1.) God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man seweth, that shall he also reap.
2.) Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
I am not sure why these are coming to your mind unless you are accusing me of oppressing some people.
I am likewise unsure as to why you felt compelled to speculate that I may have insinuated anything about you in particular. Have I met you before? How would I be able to accuse you of oppressing anyone? This isn't a case of guilty conscience, is it? I hope not. Anyway, the scriptures I quoted were meant to cover all aspects, scenarios and situations... not just one person.
quote:
Not saying that it's right when a white person experiences what is sometimes referred to as "reverse discrimination," but isn't it more than a little ironic that the African people who were enslaved were themselves innocent of any wrongdoing to their captors, and likewise those who experienced segregation, hate crimes, etc., and now all these years later... there are those who are just as innocent of wrongdoings from the opposite side of the coin, but are nevertheless being wronged?
quote:
It is not ironic. It is life. You yourself posted above that racism exists everywhere. A bit inconsistent aren’t you?
How is that being inconsistent? And yes it is ironic. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong does have a tendency to occur as a result of the first. I agree that it's life, but it's also ironic at the same time, like I said. Seems consistent enough to me.
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:57:14 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
How is that being inconsistent? And yes it is ironic. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong does have a tendency to occur as a result of the first. I agree that it's life, but it's also ironic at the same time, like I said. Seems consistent enough to me.
It is inconsistent because of the ubiquity of racism. It is not relegated to one race, creed, etc. It is not necessarily a result of turnabout. It is a result of a fallen world. I was never a racist, so why should I be discriminated against? I have been (without justification). I enjoy a heritage from the Cherokee, Ireland, England, etc. Am I part of the first wrong? Part of my family was discriminated against before slavery began here in the states. What say you?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 4:37:31 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10650
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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I may get jumped on here but there is no such thing as reverse discrimination. I hate that term. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Reverse Discrimination would be the opisite of discrimination.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 4:51:29 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6313
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I may get jumped on here but there is no such thing as reverse discrimination. I hate that term. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Reverse Discrimination would be the opisite of discrimination.
AMEN!!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 4:54:16 PM
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ConstantReader
Posts: 158
Joined: 1/28/2008
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+2
_____________________________
Long days and pleasant nights.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:59:47 AM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
How is that being inconsistent? And yes it is ironic. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong does have a tendency to occur as a result of the first. I agree that it's life, but it's also ironic at the same time, like I said. Seems consistent enough to me.
It is inconsistent because of the ubiquity of racism. It is not relegated to one race, creed, etc. It is not necessarily a result of turnabout. It is a result of a fallen world. I was never a racist, so why should I be discriminated against? I have been (without justification). I enjoy a heritage from the Cherokee, Ireland, England, etc. Am I part of the first wrong? Part of my family was discriminated against before slavery began here in the states. What say you?
Again I say it is indeed ironic, as irony happens to be just as much a part of life as racism itself. The two do coincide, both being very real factors in our daily lives practically every which way we turn, and no matter how or from what angle you look at it. You say that it's not necessarily a result of turnabout, but I say that something along those lines was bound to happen sooner or later.
Moreover, I fail to see why you insist on personalizing the matter by bringing yourself into the equation as far as our current discourse is concerned. As to your questions, however, I cannot honestly say whether you are part of the first wrong or not. My statements were aimed at the evils of slavery and "racism" in general, which covers all parties involved, both directly and by association. Part of your family was discriminated against. I take it they were innocent of having participated in the same kind of activity, if you will forgive my presumptuousness on this issue. What say I?
I was not referring to you in the first place. That's what say I.
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:01:41 AM
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Leo71
Posts: 43
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I may get jumped on here but there is no such thing as reverse discrimination. I hate that term. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Reverse Discrimination would be the opisite of discrimination.
Very well said, Qtman. All these labels that society pounds into our brains from generation to generation. I refuse to accept them as my own.
_____________________________
What you did yesterday is your reputation.
What you do today is your future.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2008 5:02:48 PM
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lexie
Posts: 3180
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Lexie, I think your kids are beautiful. I hope your MIL does too.
Thank you PaleHawkWoman.
quote:
Why is it OK to say white for Caucasian but not OK to refer to other races by color?
To me, that comes down to the person. My husband would like to referred to as black.
When we were in the US, I was in a store with my daughter and the man in front of me asked if her father is "African-American" (as this man was.) I responded "he's black." The man looked at me confused and said "African-American?" I said "no, Jamaican-Canadian." The man, still confused, "African American?" Me: "Black." Then my husband walked in the store, said hello to the man and the man said "Oh. African-American."
My point was to say that yes her father is what this man thinks he is (African-American) but that not all black people accept that term applied to them. My husband is neither African nor American. He is Jamaican by birth and childhood, Canadian by citizenship and adulthood. I wasn't trying to be rude to the man, but the concept of race and the application of it differs from person to person, country to country.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2008 1:31:02 PM
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