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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2009 3:43:43 PM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
As long as some folks keep looking at the past they will keep stumbling over the present and the future.
RCjames,
So far you have brought up the past, in this way, more than anyone else. I seriously question why it is, when I or anyone else posts about current events, you resort to this tired line?
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2009 3:58:30 PM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I've reached a decision that some of you will surely be happy about. I've discussed this thread and the issues it reflects with a number of my Native and non-Native friends and relations. A strong consensus came forth:
We don't need you (supposedly sympathetic Christians who want us to stop thinking about the past and get over being victims). Really we don't.
We already are doing this. We already are rebuilding our lives and communities. We already are finding ways to do without promised government support. We already are finding ways to step over the evangelism caltrips many churches and denominations throw at us. We're introducing-and meeting-the real Jesus. Not the one wrapped up in American Evangelicalism with all it's attendant cultural baggage. Cultural baggage which is not only reflective of everything Native peoples have come to fear in white society, but which is also questionable in the light of Scripture.
You see, when some of us approach you (Christians Who Are Supposed to Care) about conditions in Indian Country, it's not because we are feeling like victims and wanting your help. It's because we assume, based on the Bible, that you want to work with us to deal with issues, instead of standing back and watching us-and the government-do what the Church should be doing. We think that Christians genuinely want to be partners in restoring the lives of Native Americans, regardless of their socio-economic status, into right standing with Creator.
I have it on abundantly experienced and reputable authority that we are wrong in our thinking.
So, some of you can keep on with your delusion about how we poor, destitute injuns are coming to you hat in hand seeking ways to milk you, to sustain our victimization. Some of you can hold fast to your stereotypes, your inaccurate views, your limited experiences concerning Natives. Some of you: feel free to continue to believe that Natives (or any other minority) who express dissatisfaction with how the Church treats us do so because we are godless liberals out to bash conservative Christians.
We have realized something about those who do so hold onto such attitudes: it keeps you from realizing that perhaps we are coming to you to give you a chance to be freed from the attitudes too many of you have.
Perhaps we're trying to offer you the opportunity to stop "being so heavenly-minded that your no earthly good."?
Perhaps we offer a chance for some of you to learn there is more to being Christian than being an American Evangelical who thinks the rest of the world is both spiritually ignorant and out to get you?
Perhaps we are offering our hand, as the true hosts we have already been, in working together to address the many problems plaguing our nation?
But alas, those I truly respect tell me I'm wasting my time. So, I offer some of you this link to appease your notion of what a good, no-longer-the-victim Indian should be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cigar_store_indian.jpg
< Message edited by c_h_b -- 5/25/2009 4:07:30 PM >
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2009 4:26:18 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
RCjames,
So far you have brought up the past, in this way, more than anyone else. I seriously question why it is, when I or anyone else posts about current events, you resort to this tired line?
Well let me see; ah, because it is Scripture, given to Believes to help in this life and to prepare them for the next?
(Mat 6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
and
(Php 3:13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
(Php 3:14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
And
(Mat 18:33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(Mat 18:34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(Mat 18:35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
So when I see folks wallowing in the misery of self-pity and unforgiveness, and not forgeting the past and looking forward to the future and our relationship with Christ; I see them being turned over to the tormentors as promised in Scripture. And it is such a simple think to remedy; forgive and forget as Scripture instructs us.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2009 9:42:55 PM
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DancingWarrior
Posts: 4
Joined: 5/25/2009
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'Emsit Nougama! All my Relations!
Kwe Nidup! Hello Friend! Kwe C_H_B,
You take a lot of hits on this forum for the People. Welalin! Thank you! I have been reading these posts and it seems those who are responding to you haven't even heard your words.
I meet many good intentioned Christians who practice hit and run religion. They come to the Reservation with a flash in the pan programs and then they leave. They never love the people enough to stay. They don't want to stay cause their teeth will start rotting out of their heads. Why? No fluoride in the water on the Rez. They love their smiles more than Indians.
They pray from afar for the poor Indians that still live on the Rez. They tell my cousins that they should leave the Rez and all will be well. Many already did that in the 50's, 60's, and 70's with government relocation programs. Instead of experiencing racism from afar, they were relocated to city slums to experience first hand that racism and then have to put up with it separated from their family and friends.
I am confused by these churches. They are the richest people on the planet and they pray for more and more and more material blessings. On the Rez my relations pray to be more generous.
One pastor left the Rez cause his health and wealth sermons were not getting through to his congregation. His complaint. They were not Greedy enough. They were at peace with what they had. They were thankful for what they had, and they gave what they had to others in need. Often the Christian Natives that I know are also the "poorest" in terms of material wealth because of the generosity of their spirit.
C_H_B, you are talking to a people who do not know your culture or mine. When was the last time you went into a church and were given gifts?
I went to one powwow where my wife and I camped for free. They fed us our meals, salmon, moose, lobster, venison. They gave us gifts in a give-a-way, and then gave me $80 and filled my RV gas tank as a thank you for dancing our prayers with them.
As a matter of fact, the Rez fed all the guests at the powwow 5,000 twin lobster dinners. Most of the guests were White people from the neighboring towns. 90% of them came on the last day for the lobster. They didn't come to celebrate with the people, just to get a free meal. One of the Indian lobster boats broke down and did not make it in for the boil. The lobster ran out and the Town people complained they didn't get their lobster.
These people were told that the Elders, Drummers, and Dancers would be fed first as is the custom of the tribe, but the people ignored the directions of the MC and cut in front of the Elderly Natives. Out right pushing the Elders. It was incredible. They were guests, and they were pushing their hosts aside to get their meal first. It was truly a test of patience and love that the Natives showed that day. Those serving the lobster had to bag the meals and walk down the line to feed the Elders of the Native community and the Elders of the White community.
This Rez has had several churches come to help Save the Indians. My good friend, a Chief of his clan was told he needed to cut his braids and wear a suit, and sign a doctrinal statement that said he would not do any Indian Ceremonies. He asked what ceremonies they were talking about? Wedding Ceremonies? Morning Prayers? Prayer before meals? He told these good Christians, He loved Jesus, He Forgave them, He didn't need a peace treaty with their Church, cause he had a peace treaty already with Jesus.
I hope C_H_B that you will continue your good words. Some do listen. Some will learn. Some will understand that 400 years of good words from Christians on this continent are empty good words until there are actions of sacrificial love behind their words.
Maybe there will be a person on this forum brave enough to face the continued systemic racism in the church and come and sit with Native Christians who have lost all, but still love and give.
Shalom C_H_B OP Na Mol Tes! See You Later!
"Mimajuinu'g ugjita'taq ugjipenug aq tg'snug, aq elg ugiita'taq oqwatnug aq tp'te'snug. Na nat pisgwita'taq Gjinisgaml wiguaq aq pmgopita'taq ulatalultinew ta'n Gjinisgam ilgwenaji mimajuinu'!" Lu'g 13:29 (Mi'kmaq)
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Lk 13:29)
Rev. Niskam Ekwilk (God I seek)
_____________________________
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
... In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind."
Job 12:7-10
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2009 11:09:05 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1890
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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My point still stands...why is it we only hear from liberal minorities when racism is discussed?
quote:
They don't want to stay cause their teeth will start rotting out of their heads. Why? No fluoride in the water on the Rez. They love their smiles more than Indians.
Really? I mean, toothpaste isn't sold on the reservation?
quote:
Many already did that in the 50's, 60's, and 70's with government relocation programs.
Why do you need a government program to leave the reservation? If they ended up in slums...just maybe, it was the prgram that was the problem.
Do it yourself.
quote:
They are the richest people on the planet and they pray for more and more and more material blessings. On the Rez my relations pray to be more generous.
So, you have read Karl Marx?
quote:
When was the last time you went into a church and were given gifts?
Our church does this every weekend. In many different ways.
quote:
the continued systemic racism in the church
I would wager, my church is much more diverse than your's.
Yes, christians are stupid humans too. They mess up and do stupid things....and its not always racist.
No many do not understand your culture...and to be hionest, I could care less about your culture...or the guy's down the street's culture, or the guy across the ocean's culture.
Worshipping culture is the problem. An idol.
You wanna do christianity in your fashion? Fine...I don't have a problem with that...just don't make it a race issue when others do.
Humans do not like change. They may see somethign different..and flinch....and there is always the possibility....some forms of worship....are not biblical or from God. No matter the church.
Don't lump all of us christians ( evil white man ) together and maybe..we will do the same.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 1:19:15 AM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So when I see folks wallowing in the misery of self-pity and unforgiveness, and not forgeting the past and looking forward to the future and our relationship with Christ...
rcjames, for the last few posts I have made a point of not mentioning the past, but present problems among Native Americans. My last post I even pointed out that we are, in fact, working quite diligently at solving our problems. Yet again, you, not I try to make the issue one of dwelling on the past.
Why is that? Is it because it's the only "argument" you think you can win?
Nah, I think it's simpler than that.
You simply are not paying attention to what I'm saying. You, as is the case with so many self-possessed people, decide that you will respond not to what I actually say, but rather to what you need me to say, in order for you to make your point.
I say "Here is what is happening now" including things we are doing to overcome obstacles laid before us by your society, both past and current. You respond, every time, as though I'm talking about the past, including pretty insulting and inaccurate assessment of the attitudes Native have.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 1:25:12 AM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
My point still stands...why is it we only hear from liberal minorities when racism is discussed?
There's no other way to respond to this line than to laugh myself sick.
If you haven't noticed, the people working the hardest at manipulating this thread of late appear to be conservative majority people, what with the above statement coupled with accusations that we are wallowing in the past, playing the victim etc.
In other words, because we aren't speaking words that conservative majority Christians demand of us, we are liberal (and therefore automatically wrong) minorities?
Such wonderful circular logic: if a minority doesn't agree with the conservative majority opinion on racism, then he/she is dismissed as being liberal, and therefore his/her opinion is without merit.
I gotta do this again...
The rest of your responses...
Why is it we have just enough people responding out of ignorance of history, culture and current events to make it soooo entertaining?
Anyway...
A little education in history would do you well. You could start with a some research about why Indians mostly stayed on reservations up until the Indian Relocation program that started in the 60's. Well adult Indians anyway. Most of the children were forceably removed and placed in Residential Schools where they were tortured into becoming Good White Christians.
Here I'll give you the first step. Go watch this video:
http://www.pbs.org/video/video/1120420245
It includes an account of the Relocation efforts and why they did more harm than good. Also includes a section on Residential Schools, including interviews with some who survived the ordeal.
quote:
I could care less about your culture...
This one line, so rich in arrogance and patronizing attitude, sums it all up. It appears you are so intent on pleasing your god (small 'g' is intentional) that you feel it gives you permission to disrespect others. Don't deny it. That is exactly what this sentence is: as sign of disrespect to anyone who has a culture different from yours and who holds to that culture.
Is it that your heart and mind are so filled with things you are against that there is no room for things you really should be for?
And yet, I'm certain you will have Scripture at hand to justify your display of disrespect and indifference toward men, who are made in God's image. Does the font of bitter water actually taste sweet to you?
< Message edited by c_h_b -- 5/26/2009 1:57:31 AM >
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 1:56:24 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
One meaning is this: instead of telling people who are expressing grievances that they need to stop playing the victim and get over it, you listen. Really just listen. Keep your mouth shut until the aggrieved is done speaking. Listen without trying to think of a rebuttal while the other is still making a point. Listen without getting defensive as soon as you think you are being attacked.
I'd ask "Is that so hard?" but some responses on this thread show that for certain people, it's not hard: it's impossible.
For crying out loud Charles. You have been heard. Myself and others have listened. We have asked questions and made comments in reply to what you have to say. It seems, however, that we are not listening until we capitulate. You don't seem interested in dialogue, only in stating what you believe and denigrating anyone who does not fall in line with your thinking. Take a look in the mirror, Charles, when hurling comments about not listening. and responding only with rebuttal in mind or being defensive as soon as you think you are being attacked. Yes, Charles, Jesus is good medicine!
_____________________________
Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 10:15:36 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6728
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
quote:
My point still stands...why is it we only hear from liberal minorities when racism is discussed?
There's no other way to respond to this line than to laugh myself sick.
If you haven't noticed, the people working the hardest at manipulating this thread of late appear to be conservative majority people, what with the above statement coupled with accusations that we are wallowing in the past, playing the victim etc.
In other words, because we aren't speaking words that conservative majority Christians demand of us, we are liberal (and therefore automatically wrong) minorities?
Such wonderful circular logic: if a minority doesn't agree with the conservative majority opinion on racism, then he/she is dismissed as being liberal, and therefore his/her opinion is without merit.
I gotta do this again...
The rest of your responses...
Why is it we have just enough people responding out of ignorance of history, culture and current events to make it soooo entertaining?
Anyway...
A little education in history would do you well. You could start with a some research about why Indians mostly stayed on reservations up until the Indian Relocation program that started in the 60's. Well adult Indians anyway. Most of the children were forceably removed and placed in Residential Schools where they were tortured into becoming Good White Christians.
Here I'll give you the first step. Go watch this video:
http://www.pbs.org/video/video/1120420245
It includes an account of the Relocation efforts and why they did more harm than good. Also includes a section on Residential Schools, including interviews with some who survived the ordeal.
quote:
I could care less about your culture...
This one line, so rich in arrogance and patronizing attitude, sums it all up. It appears you are so intent on pleasing your god (small 'g' is intentional) that you feel it gives you permission to disrespect others. Don't deny it. That is exactly what this sentence is: as sign of disrespect to anyone who has a culture different from yours and who holds to that culture.
Is it that your heart and mind are so filled with things you are against that there is no room for things you really should be for?
And yet, I'm certain you will have Scripture at hand to justify your display of disrespect and indifference toward men, who are made in God's image. Does the font of bitter water actually taste sweet to you?
Oh chb, you are really a trip. in your post before this one you chastise me for talking about the past, and then in your very next post (the one above) you bring up the things of the past as being the reason (excuse) for the problems of the present.
Since you repeat your complaints, I will repeat God's answer to the percieved problem;
(Php 3:13,14) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Just applying this God given principle to the problem you espouse would eliminate the excuse for the problem and then folks can go on to the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.
But as long as one keeps looking at the past (as you constantly do), then one will surely stumble over the present.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 5:40:01 PM
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rockitd
Posts: 1020
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockitd
1)Christians need to take the lead in the fight like we have in the past. Stop ignoring the fact of it or saying "let's be color blind". There are real issues to be addressed and it won't be solved by holding hands and singing "Kum Ba Yah".
2) Once reconciliation is in place, the world will see we are Christians by our love. Jesus said that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself.
Well when we become Christians there should be no racism; either black on white or white on black.
(Col 3:11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
(Col 3:12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
(Col 3:13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And the past needs to be just that the past and we need to go forward in Christ.
(Php 3:13, 14) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
As long as some folks keep looking at the past they will keep stumbling over the present and the future.
Thanks
RC
Absolutely, but for those who say there is no problem also fail to be "in the world". Christians were the people at the forefront of the Abolitionist and Civil Rights movements. The problem is too many have failed to take it to the next level.
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
www.myccm.org/rockitd
www.myspace.com/rockitd
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 5:59:54 PM
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rockitd
Posts: 1020
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
2) Once reconciliation is in place, the world will see we are Christians by our love. Jesus said that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself.
What's reconciliation mean? All too often it seems that there the meaning of the word differs from one person to the next.
Reconciliation is forgetting about the four walls and reaching out to those who are "the least of these". Stepping out of one's comfort zone and attempting to understand other people and "become all things to all men, that we by all means win some." The cause of Christ will never be established if we stay with "our own". When I was in school, they call it "cross-cultural ministries". But all to often, we go on missionary trips to Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America, but not to our neighbor here in the States.
I went to an Assemblies of God college where I discovered that the denomination broke off from what became the Church of God in Christ because the leader of the Pentecostal movement was a Black man. Now my best friend's dad - who is African American - is an AG pastor in Compton, CA. That's attempts at reconciliation, but there's so much more to do because Blacks in that denomination are rare...at least here in So Cali....
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
www.myccm.org/rockitd
www.myspace.com/rockitd
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 6:09:42 PM
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rockitd
Posts: 1020
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
There are many definitions to racial peace...
I know reconciliation does not mean that we have a one-flavor church.
There is richness in the culture of each race. I have dear friends of other races, but we don't have to like the same style of music, books or even worship. But we do worship the same God.
I have an appreciation for other worship styles, but I don't have to exchange my style for "anothers" in the name of racial peace. God's people are diverse in worship, in music, in many household ways. I'm not talking about stereotypes, but real people worshipping the same God in a manner that honors Him through their upbringing and culture. I see nothing wrong or unbiblical with that.
We can have racial peace without having a Stepford type body of believers.
AMEN!!!! I agree wholeheartedly. We need more revelation and illumination of that to the Body of Christ. That's the only way WE will lift up Christ for a world that is hungry for Him.
I've been fortunate to have been brought up in a "Black" Bapti-costal church (where I serve as Youth Pastor) in inner city L.A. When I was a kid, it was very "traditional", but has evolved with a younger pastor. When I really got saved, I learned alot of Biblical study from the Calvary Chapels. In college, I went to an Assemblies of God school in Orange County. I've been in "mixed" from 4th grade to college, so I'm very grateful to have been around all races of people from different walks of life.
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
www.myccm.org/rockitd
www.myspace.com/rockitd
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 8:27:50 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
SonInMe1: Worshipping culture is the problem. An idol.
Seriously needs to be repeated... and heard. Culture, heritage, and color should never be put above the Kingdom, ever.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 8:27:56 PM
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DancingWarrior
Posts: 4
Joined: 5/25/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
why is it we only hear from liberal minorities when racism is discussed?
Kwe SonInMe1,
Maydullane? How are You?
Thank you for your words in response to my post. It is very funny that you have labeled me as a liberal. I have been voting as a Republican since the Reagan years. I'm a Republican Evangelical. Check your prophet batteries. Your assumption missed the mark on that one. Thank you for the laugh though. The very first post I make on this forum, and I am quickly labeled a liberal. It didn't take long for me to discover first hand the negativity on this forum that other natives have told me about.
I relayed some personal experiences in my post, and that makes me a liberal. My Pastor colleges will smile at that.
quote:
Really? I mean, toothpaste isn't sold on the reservation?
Toothpaste? How about just water. There are 70,000 Navajo Indians whose water is pumped off of the Rez to water the golf courses in Santa Fe, NM. These are 70,000 US citizens whose water is taken from them to keep White neighborhood lawns green. THIS IS A CURRENT ISSUE. TODAY! You can watch the documentary about this at this link. http://www.knme.org/water/video.php This is a TODAY ISSUE. ONGOING INJUSTICE!
Now that you good Christian people know about this CURRENT DAY INJUSTICE, I hope to see your Churches rallying "To loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?" (Is 58:6)
It is so easy for Non-natives to say just move off the land. It is funny that tribes have been left with the worse land. In reality according to treaty, tribes only own the few inches of topsoil to live on and grow food on. The Water, Minerals and everything beneath the surface to the center of the earth belongs to the Feds.
Business interests, and government policy still put pressure on Natives to move off the last of their land. Why? Why do they still want the last of the Land? "Englishman! You Know God!!! Do you Steal?" It is still happening today!
The Campo Indians outside San Diego faced the same water shortage when San Diego started to water the highway medians to have green grass in a dessert area. With the water gone, all their crops failed. Then the state of California needed a place to put a new landfill. Where did they choose? Hey the Campo's are only Indians. Lets put our landfill on their Rez. Go visit their Rez. It is about 20 miles outside of San Diego. You'll find lots of garbage from good Christians dumped on Indian land.
I hope some of the people on this forum have the guts to really see what is happening in their own country. Where is the CURRENT OUTCRY FOR THE NATIVE PEOPLE by Christians?
Do you know, as a White person, that you can walk onto the Rez, rape an Indian women in the Rez courtroom in front of Judge and Jury, and only be charged with a misdemeanor? That is because of current Treaty Law. States can fill jails with NDN's, but Whites will walk away with a fine for Rape, Murder, and other capital crimes.
THAT IS CURRENT ISSUES. 2009 A.D. That is why Rape tourism is so popular in the darker places of the Internet. If you're caught, you walk. Pretty good deal.
Why am I hard on Christians, cause Christians Vote the government people into power so that this abuse continues. Then they hide on forums and call Indians liberals to justify not doing anything.
I have a feeling that C_H_B has said this stuff before.
It is so Easy for Christians to tell Indians to just leave the land. Without a land base, Indians are then classified as Non-Indian. Not one Non-Native person on this forum looses their Identity by marrying someone from another state. When Indians from 2 different tribes marry each other, their children are considered only 50% Native cause they can only register federally with one tribe. Their Children marry off the Rez, now the kids are only 1/4 Native. It is called Paper Annihilation. The Abuse and Forced Assimilation continues.
Now with all that garbage of everyone around you telling you, just stop being Indian, blend in, disappear, go away, Natives come into the church and they hear words like this....
quote:
to be hionest, I could care less about your culture...or the guy's down the street's culture, or the guy across the ocean's culture.
I sure can feel the love here on this forum already.
Jesus cares about culture. He left the Culture of Heaven and took on the Hebrew culture of his time, and communicated his love for the people with cultural symbols that the people would understand in the vernacular.
I've sent my Native brothers to churches. If culture is not important, why oh why does the church make sure it suppresses anything Native? A couple of friends and I went into a church. They had drums, keyboards, tambourines, Maracas, guitars, etc., etc. When my Mohawk friend took out his rattle to play along, he was told to put it away, cut his braids, take out his earring, become Invisible.
quote:
I would wager, my church is much more diverse than your's.
At another church where I was the Missions director, I was told to hang the flags of the people we were ministering to. I hung up 8 flags. 7 countries where we had projects ongoing, and 1 Indian Nation flag where I as the Missions Director worked. The Native flag was taken down within 17 hours.
This diverse urban church whose pastor is from Ghana, Music Director from Indonesia, Pastor's Wife: Barbadian, Assistant Pastor:Cherokee, Children's Choir Director: Wampanoag, Men's Ministry Elder: Jamaican, Men's Bible Study Leader: Irish. I think this church is very diverse. Too bad that the Systemic racism is so rampant that the Wampanoag, and Cherokee hid their culture, while everyone else celebrated theirs.
I left that place. The Wampanoag did also. There was room for everyone but Indians. The Cherokee Minister still hides his culture and hasn't left yet. He believes he can still teach the church about its racism. Don't know how if he has to be invisible.
Why in a racially diverse church was Indian culture suppressed? That is simply 400 years of bad theology were everything Native is still demonized. Churches don't want people to go Injun on them.
I prayed a prayer in Lakota, and I was accused of calling Indian spirits down to destroy the church. That is the same church were sermons are said in English, Spanish, Ga, Creole, and Indonesian. I said one sentence in Lakota, and they were ready to call in the Exorcists.
Well this is just my and my friends personal experience. I go to Powwows, and I come away with my belly, wallet, and gas tank full. I go to church and I come away with an empty wallet, and not much feeling of love unless I assimilate into their Western culture. Poor Jesus won't be able to wear his sandals when he comes back for the church. He might be confused for one of those liberals.
Thank you for listening. Be at peace! Celebrate Life in Se'soo (Jesus). May Niskam, (God) bless you today.
Dancing Warrior!
_____________________________
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
... In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind."
Job 12:7-10
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 8:36:33 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4170
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DancingWarrior
Toothpaste? How about just water. There are 70,000 Navajo Indians whose water is pumped off of the Rez to water the golf courses in Santa Fe, NM. These are 70,000 US citizens whose water is taken from them to keep White neighborhood lawns green. THIS IS A CURRENT ISSUE. TODAY! You can watch the documentary about this at this link. http://www.knme.org/water/video.php This is a TODAY ISSUE. ONGOING INJUSTICE!
It is so easy for Non-natives to say just move off the land. It is funny that tribes have been left with the worse land. In reality according to treaty, tribes only own the few inches of topsoil to live on and grow food on. The Water, Minerals and everything beneath the surface to the center of the earth belongs to the Feds.
I hate to break it to you, but this isn't a native people problem. That is happening everywhere and there are plenty of lawsuits being fought to stop it.
quote:
Now that you good Christian people know about this CURRENT DAY INJUSTICE, I hope to see your Churches rallying "To loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?" (Is 58:6)
I hope some of the people on this forum have the guts to really see what is happening in their own country. Where is the CURRENT OUTCRY FOR THE NATIVE PEOPLE by Christians?
I think you'll find our local churches busy with our local problems. Yes, there is always more that can be done about any social problem, but personally, I expect local churches to minister in their neighborhoods. I don't really believe in mission trips either for the most part, which is something that gets me shredded by most Christians I know. <shrug>
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 8:42:39 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
DancingWarrior: Why am I hard on Christians, cause Christians Vote the government people into power so that this abuse continues. Then they hide on forums and call Indians liberals to justify not doing anything.
Here are your choices:
1. Continue to rely on the government and/or stay on a reservation.
2. Be responsible for yourself. If you don't have a college degree, work towards one. Go where there are jobs, and work towards a goal. Buy a nice house in a nice neighborhood if you like.
Your choice, and no one is stopping you. Every person in this country who has wanted a better life has had to make a decision and an effort to be responsible for themselves and DO something about it. You are no different.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 5/26/2009 8:57:20 PM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 9:23:01 PM
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DancingWarrior
Posts: 4
Joined: 5/25/2009
Status: offline
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Kwe Iw9,
quote:
Here are your choices:
1. Continue to rely on the government.
UMMMM? Excuse me? Let me see. Non-Native people rely on their government for what? Hospitals, Schools, Fire, Police, Colleges, Housing? Welfare, military, Water, Sewer, Justice System?, etc. etc. etc. Wow you sure are relying on a lot of government programs. And Americans are screaming for more and more programs to take care of them.
As a matter of Fact the Government borrowed $100 Billion from Indians to bail out Your Government. Check the Records of the Department of the Interior. You Needed Indian Money to take care of You!!!!
Who is relying on who? Take Indian water, take Indian land. And now take Indian Money to bail out your government.
quote:
Get an education
Hmmmm? Let's see. Oh ya, I have my Master's degree. My good Indian Pastor Friend Just got her Doctorate. Oh ya there are 37 Indian Owned and Run Colleges. Pretty good for 3 million drunken welfare bums.
As a matter of fact Native Americans out of every ethnic group are more likely, per capita, to finish high school and have college degrees than any other minority group. You should look at your schools and ask why a bunch of helpless Indians are getting college educations above every other ethnic group. Why would an Indian want to leave the Rez to go to public schools that have such large drop out rates?
Sorry if I am seeming a little harsh. But so far all I am hearing are the same old stereotypical arguments.
I am responsible for myself. So aren't my friends. What does that have to do with the injustices I mentioned, and racism in the church?
Do I go to the battered woman's shelter and tell them to stop whining? If they want to have a better life they have to make a decision and an effort to be responsible for themselves? Where is the action to stop the abuser?
You are getting mad at the abused, and letting the abuser go.
To Stellaluna about stolen water.
If you look at the video, these Navajo have been without water since the 1950's.
I am sure you took a shower this morning, and had a good flush on the toilet, and had no problem making a cup of coffee.
No one is pumping your water out of your cisterns to water grass on the side of a highway or golf course. You wouldn't allow it. But Americans are allowing these Navajo to wash their teeth, body, and socks in a cup of water. Watch the Video so you know what I'm talking about.
Peace.
_____________________________
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
... In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind."
Job 12:7-10
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 10:12:15 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1890
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
This one line,
Please read the rest of what I said concerning culture. I do not place culture over Jesus Christ. It...seems...some do.
quote:
ignorance of history
Which is worse...ignorance.....or wallowing in past hurts?
quote:
as sign of disrespect to anyone who has a culture different from yours and who holds to that culture.
Please read what I said and not what you think I said. It seems prejudice...is not from me here. Please re-read what I said...
"Yes, christians are stupid humans too. They mess up and do stupid things....and its not always racist.
No many do not understand your culture...and to be hionest, I could care less about your culture...or the guy's down the street's culture, or the guy across the ocean's culture.
Worshipping culture is the problem. An idol.
You wanna do christianity in your fashion? Fine...I don't have a problem with that...just don't make it a race issue when others do.
Humans do not like change. They may see somethign different..and flinch....and there is always the possibility....some forms of worship....are not biblical or from God. No matter the church.
Don't lump all of us christians ( evil white man ) together and maybe..we will do the same. "
quote:
There are 70,000 Navajo Indians whose water is pumped off of the Rez to water the golf courses in Santa Fe, NM.
Fight it....and by the way, injustices happen to white people too.
quote:
In reality according to treaty, tribes only own the few inches of topsoil to live on and grow food on. The Water, Minerals and everything beneath the surface to the center of the earth belongs to the Feds.
It may surprise you that no one owns land. We rent it from the government via taxation and the government can take it at any time it deems neccesary, for a price.
quote:
Then the state of California needed a place to put a new landfill.
My state decided to put a three county landfill in my town. 6 million dollars was spent to fight it...and now, the landfill is the biggest employer of the town..and our taxes have gone down, without much impact on the enviroment.
Nice try.
quote:
THAT IS CURRENT ISSUES. 2009 A.D.
Do something about it.
quote:
It is so Easy for Christians to tell Indians to just leave the land. Without a land base, Indians are then classified as Non-Indian. Not one Non-Native person on this forum looses their Identity by marrying someone from another state. When Indians from 2 different tribes marry each other, their children are considered only 50% Native cause they can only register federally with one tribe. Their Children marry off the Rez, now the kids are only 1/4 Native. It is called Paper Annihilation. The Abuse and Forced Assimilation continues.
Why do you let the government decide who you are? RC said somethign a while ago about government handouts to native americans....is this why you let the government define your heritage?
By the way, voting republican does not make you conservative.
quote:
just stop being Indian
I never suggested this. I said..get off the government dole that has controlled you, make your own life and do it as you please, without government mandate.
quote:
He left the Culture of Heaven and took on the Hebrew culture of his time, and communicated his love for the people with cultural symbols that the people would understand in the vernacular.
?? This makes no statement..or sence. Jesus talked to a samaratan woman who was promiscious...completely outside of jewish culture. Paul certainly went outside of culture...in fact he embraced the culture of the people he was with to spread the gospel.....culture is not as important as the gospel.
quote:
I've sent my Native brothers to churches. If culture is not important, why oh why does the church make sure it suppresses anything Native? A couple of friends and I went into a church. They had drums, keyboards, tambourines, Maracas, guitars, etc., etc. When my Mohawk friend took out his rattle to play along, he was told to put it away, cut his braids, take out his earring, become Invisible.
People worship in different ways. Forcing your ways upon them...is as bad as them forcing their ways on you. Its called respect...and its a double edged sword.
I was saved in a charismatic church. When we moved I eventually went to a baptist church. I did not go into the church expecting them to accept the ways I worship. I learned their's. Now, if what they did was not biblical or something I could not take, I would have left. I didn't because...
its not about me, or my culture, or my ancestory. Its about Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2009 11:12:26 PM
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rcudawg
Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Southeastern Nebraska.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight.
[Welcome to the One Stop thread for all things related to racial issues.
Do they exist?
Yes, they do. To some extent or another, all of us are prejudice in some form or fassion.
quote:
Why do they exist?
Becase we are all sinners and are plagued with a 'self focus.' Because of our sinful nature, we will do what we can do 'put self first.'
quote:
How can they be overcome?
To some extent, we can oversome our sinful nature. But, even as Christians, we will still have some 'residue' of our sinful nature.
quote:
What should be done about past offenses?
Outside of appologizing for past offenses and making it a point to learn from past experiences/mistakes, not a whole lot. As I've already mentioned, because of our sinful nature, we are predisposed to act in sinful ways, with being racial being one of the symptoms of our nature. There are limits we can put on it, but it can't be 100% overcome.
And, I'll be upfront with one of the things that I"m very 'prejudicial' on. I really, really dislike stupid people. That is, people who choose not to learn from their mistakes, constantly only look out for themselves, and live off of putting others down. Whether it's my work in the ministry and with the deparment of corrections, poeple being stupid gets others hurt or killed. And, every day at work, I'm around some people who make stupid choices and are paying the consequences, and around people who choose to live foolish lives. It's the latter that I really dislike.
RC
_____________________________
Everybody dies. Not everyone really lives. Braveheart
Yahoo 360
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 3:14:48 AM
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DancingWarrior
Posts: 4
Joined: 5/25/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
It may surprise you that no one owns land. We rent it from the government via taxation and the government can take it at any time it deems neccesary, for a price.
SonInMe1: Difference between you owning a piece of land and keeping it by paying taxes, and an Indian living on his land by treaty with the USA government is this. You discover oil or gold or anything below the surface on the land you own and keep by paying taxes, that oil or gold or other mineral is yours. You can choose to dig it up and profit from it.
An Indian finds the same things on treaty land and the USA Government owns it and takes it. The Indians own nothing. My relations in Canada on the Rez can't even cut a tree to build a shelter for a homeless Indian cause all the trees are owned by the Crown. You own a piece of land, and those trees on it is yours.
The difference between Indians who have treaties with the USA government and those who don't are this. The Seminoles in Florida do not have a treaty with the USA government. They were never conquered. 3 wars were fought against them. It was costing the military 1 million dollars to kill each Indian. The last war lasted 7 years. The Government gave up. The Seminoles are technically still at war with the government. There is no treaty to starve out the Seminoles, therefore they kept their resources.
What is the difference between being a prisoner of war in the USA and being a free Indian? The Seminoles were able to keep their resources. They have land and water and resources that they own. They have cattle ranches, and Citrus groves, and own most of the hotels in Miami, and own the entire Hard Rock Cafe Chain, and fly around in private jets.
The Seminoles from Georgia who surrendered to the Government and were relocated to Oklahoma have nothing but a welfare program. That is the difference. Treaty Indians still loose all to the USA and are thrown bones. You don't live as a prisoner of war on the land you were born on. The deck is not stacked against you. You move freely from church to church.
Hey did you hear about the Lakota family that had a contract to grow industrial hemp on the Rez to a mason company for their cinder blocks? Each year the Lakota family grew the hemp, the Government came in at harvest time and took the full grown harvest. The Government doesn't like Indians competing for profits. They had their own contracts and arrangements with Canada. You can't have Indians growing hemp and having their own money, they might hire lawyers and go after the corruption around them.
quote:
People worship in different ways. Forcing your ways upon them...is as bad as them forcing their ways on you. Its called respect.
Hey I agree with you here totally my Nidup (Friend). My Indian friend who took out a gourd rattle to play during worship wasn't forcing anything on anyone. He didn't tell anyone they had to play his rattle. And it wasn't anything different that the congregation wasn't already doing. The congregation had plastic Maracas they were playing. So what was the big deal? The rattle was made by an Indian, the plastic Maracas were made by the Chinese. But it was the Indian instrument that was told to be put away.
Who was forcing their culture on who? The Indian didn't tell people to grow their hair and put it in braids or wear beads and feathers. But the church told him to cut his hair and become like them. Who was forcing who? He was still being told to assimilate to the Majority culture. Jump through this hoop if you want to worship Jesus.
If it is only about Jesus, then let the Indian be an Indian who worships Jesus. Stop trying to fit everyone into a suit. There are over 300 churches in my area. I haven't found one yet where an Indian can be themselves. The imposing is from the majority culture church, not from my lone Mohawk friend.
_____________________________
“But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;
or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
... In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind."
Job 12:7-10
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 4:55:22 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockitd
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
2) Once reconciliation is in place, the world will see we are Christians by our love. Jesus said that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself.
What's reconciliation mean? All too often it seems that there the meaning of the word differs from one person to the next.
Reconciliation is forgetting about the four walls and reaching out to those who are "the least of these". Stepping out of one's comfort zone and attempting to understand other people and "become all things to all men, that we by all means win some." The cause of Christ will never be established if we stay with "our own". When I was in school, they call it "cross-cultural ministries". But all to often, we go on missionary trips to Africa, Europe, Asia, and South America, but not to our neighbor here in the States.
I went to an Assemblies of God college where I discovered that the denomination broke off from what became the Church of God in Christ because the leader of the Pentecostal movement was a Black man. Now my best friend's dad - who is African American - is an AG pastor in Compton, CA. That's attempts at reconciliation, but there's so much more to do because Blacks in that denomination are rare...at least here in So Cali....
Rockit, I agree with you. In Steven Covey's 7 Habit's of Highly Effective People, one of the habits was seek first to understand, then be understood. It seems, when it comes to the discussion of race, that far too many people want to be heard but are not interested in what others have to say. The discussion with our native brothers seems to have taken this tone. Anyone who is not in lockstep with their perspective is accused of not listening while all comments in reply are dismissed outright. It seems more like a shouting contest in a world of words without volume.
We all come at this from our own perspective which is built on our experience. All too often it seems that we dismiss the experience of others without trying to understand them. Or, portraying our own experience as more valuable than another. As a white male, all too often, it seems as if there is no way I can relate to, understand, empathize, or wrap my mind around the issue of race because I am a white man. Yet, when I try to relate what I've learned, based on my experience, it is shot down as irrelevant and/or condescending. It, all too often, feels like a no win situation.
As I write this to you, it is not directed at you. You have been one of the cooler heads on this thread. Seeing as you are from LA, I can attribute some of my perception to the laid back attitude of LA and the multicultural influence of Southern Cal. Having grown up there, lived in Alaska and MN, having served in the Army and lived among every creed, color and preference, I have witnessed that some people make their race their passion and turn off those who don't tune into the same channel.
Unfortunately it seems that we haven't made much progress in terms of reconciliation because some individuals refuse to old wounds heal. It also seems unlikely that we will make any progress toward reconciliation as a result of the constant reopening of old wounds.
_____________________________
Never make someone else a priority while you remain an option!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 8:37:37 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1890
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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There are churches that practice prejudice.
Not all of them are white.
The few, hopefully, do not define the majority. Trying to make the few define the majority...is victimhood or outright prejudice.
I lived on the land my ancestors lived on for about 200 years. One family essentially. We had been in this country since the 1600's.
I left. Went to another state to prosper. Wasn't the easiest thing, going from rural to suburban, pretty much all white to very diverse, but, it can be done.
Prosperity isn't easy. Having the good life takes effort and commitment and sacrifice and you have to fight for it everyday. My skin color did not get me a job, does not keep my job ( in fact it hinders me in my job ).
Are there successful minorities in this country? Yep. A lot? Well, I don't know the figures but I bet there are few. Why? Because, there are few successful people. Limit that number to only minorities and it gets smaller.
Why are there few successful people?
Its hard.
It may not be worth it.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 12:34:42 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1399
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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WHITES ONLY PROM ARTICLE.
It is interesting to note it is the older parents who have the issue with an integrated prom and not the kids...
____________________________________
From the article:
What saddened me most when I read about Montgomery County High School was the fact that somehow the white and black kids feel powerless to change the racial situation they face.
I don't know what U.S. high school students are learning in civics classes these days, but if they don't recognize the fundamental power they have in shaping the destiny of our country, then our democratic future is very gloomy.
____________________________________
Why do the youth feel powerless to override and change the past viewpoints?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 1:57:59 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5592
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Why do the youth feel powerless to override and change the past viewpoints?
Matthew
I dunno...the high school I attended was historically an all black school and then in 1970, they bussed all us kids from the air force base in. So, now it was a racially diverse school. Us kids had no issues and it was a great school.
Some parents, otoh, were not as happy. But we were where the "powers that be" wanted us. And we loved it.
A few years back we had an all-year reunion since the school has since closed and it was over 500 people from all walks of life, culture, race, whatever...coming together to remember the great times we had during high school. Color was simply not the issue. We were drawn together as the Youth of a Nation rather than black, white, yellow or brown kids.
Looking back then, we didn't feel powerless or was it we had more energy to make a change rather than sitting back and taking it? I dunno. But the younger generation coming up now does not value the same things we did. IU'm not even sure if they have anything to value.
The answer might be in that thought.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2009 3:02:17 PM
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rockitd
Posts: 1020
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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@zamdad...thanks for the kind response. Change begins individually and when we reach across the aisle, that's all we can do. Those who are of a similar mindset will accept the friendship and start the ball rolling. Others will remain in their mindset and either be an aggressor or stay a victim.
@iron...the South tries to keep its old ways and not progress. Every revival starts with young people, so it will be them to have to reeducate their families and rebel against the status quo.
@Son...success isn't about skin color...its about taking advantage of the Free Enterprise system. A lot of people who come to this country become successful because they understand it. Most of us born here, don't.
@doinkdom...amen!!! That's how we make change. 
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
www.myccm.org/rockitd
www.myspace.com/rockitd
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