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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 3/30/2008 6:53:26 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1409
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From: Toronto the Good
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kjvthumper
doer, with all do respect, I do not need a commentary I have a bible AND I can read too. I do not need to read a man's opinion to twist what I can clearly read for myself.
kjvthumper, with all due respect, you need either a commentary or you need to read the OT in Hebrew.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 3/30/2008 11:22:03 PM
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zamdad
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Welcome. I see you are another first time poster. What drew you to this particular thread to post your response here?
quote:
terry.culp
What a pity when well-meaning American Christians take dogmatic positions on subjects of which they know so little.
Interesting that you begin your first post with this and then follow with your assumptions that all American Christians oppose alcohol. If you'd read through the many other threads on that subject, you'd see that most of us here as not as dogmatic as you assume.
You speak about your cultural experiences in other lands and situations. While clothing varies from one place to another as do sexual more's and many other things, the discussion here is about nudist resports. Places that cater to to those who prefer to go about unclothed. Perhaps this is a strictly American phenomenon. It does seem to be discussed in that context as most posters here are American and view the world through their American lens.
Nudism, as addressed in the OP is something far different than the cultural experiences you may have witnessed. Many of the proponents of nudism speak about its innocense, that it's not about sex. Yet, what got most of them interested in the first place? Getting involved in any type of "lifestyle" is like being a frog in a pot of water and not feeling the heat being turned up as you begin to cook.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 3/31/2008 8:54:16 PM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kjvthumper
Le 20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
Hey, Thumper,
First of all, I remind you that the Scriptures were not written in KJV, they were written (primarily) in Hebrew and Greek. Therefore, the Hebrew and Greek are the authority, not the KJV, NASB, NIV, or any other translation. They are ALL to be assessed on how well they render the original language in English. This presupposition is the basis of the post that follows.
Do you know what the word "take" in that passage means? Compare it to how that Hebrew word is translated and used elsewhere in the OT. It means "marries." That's how it's used elsewhere in the KJV, even. And it is translated "marries" in newer translations.
In other words, the text here is talking about what happens when a man marries his sister, and she "sees" him and he "sees" her. Obviously, it's a big problem.
Yet, surely it is not the "seeing" that is the problem, because a husband and wife are allowed to see each other, are they not? Is it not permissible for a man to "uncover the nakedness" of his own wife? Yet, that is what is implied here if you take the words "sees his/her nakedness" and "uncover nakedness of" absolutely literally... it is the "seeing" of his wife that is wrong...
So, either this verse means that a husband is NOT allowed to see his wife naked, or else this concept of "seeing his/her nakedness" and "uncovering nakedness" actually is a euphemism for something else.
It's clear that the meaning is about sexual intercourse, or more specifically, INCEST (Even if you take it absolutely literally, you still have to conclude that the problem is incest, not the nakedness).
There is no Hebrew word for "incest." Yet, God made it abundantly clear what it was, and that it was forbidden. He used the phrase "uncover the nakedness of" to represent "incest." In Lev. 18 & 20 God defines it and forbids it. Interestingly, it is ONLY in the context of defining incest that God ever uses that phrase, or makes any sort of supposed prohibition of nakedness.
So, Lev. 18 & 20 are not about nakedness, they're about incest.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kjvthumper
1Ti 2:9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (your point was one of modest behaviour but the scriptures talk of modest apparel, which means clothing should be worn. )
The word translated "adorn" (kosmeo) is the verb form of the noun "kosmos" which means "order" and is generally translated "world"
The word translated "modest" (kosmios) is the adjectival form of the same noun, "kosmos." How then can it mean "modest" as in "covered so that none can see the lustful parts of your body"? Furthermore, in just the next chapter, 1 Tim 3:2, it is translated "of good behaviour" The NASB translates the same word as "proper" and "respectable."
In other words, in the very same book, less than 10 verses apart, Paul used the same word twice, and the two best translations I know of used a total of 4 different words to translate it.
So, I ask again, how can it mean "keep yourself adequately covered"?
Clearly, it doesn't mean that. Its meaning is tied to the Greek word "kosmos" which really means "order." It has to do with order and design, not with the extent of covering.
Furthermore, the word translated "apparel" (Greek: "katastole") is not a word used for clothing anywhere in the Bible. In fact, this is the only time it is used at all in the NT. It is the noun form of the Greek word "katastello" (check your Strong's). "katastello" shows up twice in the NT, both in the same context: Acts 19:35-36.
There, "katastello" is translated "had appeased" in verse 35 and "to be quiet" in verse 36 (KJV) ("quieting" and "keep calm" in the NASB). How then can the verb which means something like "calming down" refer to a garment when changed to noun form?
What's more, evidently, Paul considered "good works" as adequate fulfillment of his command to "adorn" themselves with "modest apparel." In fact, that's the only sign he gives that we may know that a woman is complying.
I suggest that "apparel" is a mistranslation, and that the Greek word has much more to do with how a woman carries herself (calm and quiet, not loud and boisterous) , not with what she wears. And isn't that exactly what the entire context is talking about, from v.9 all the way to v.15?
We may not have a good equivalent in English, but it sure seems that "apparel" is very misleading.
Feel free to double-check my research.
-- A I D
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 11:05:08 AM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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The OT Hebrew has at least 7 and up to 9 different words that can be translated "naked", "nakedness", or to become or be made naked. It is essential one understands which word is being and the context it is being used in before addressing what is being said in English. Even the two references to nudity in Genesis 2:25 ("they were naked and not ashamed") and Genesis 3:7 ("their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked") uses two different Hebrew words which have fairly significantly different meanings.
The Leviticus 18 phrases use yet another Hebrew word for naked and, in the case of using it with "uncovered", it is a Hebrew idiom for defilement, shame, or inappropriate sexual contact. It all revolves around sex, not the innocent state of having one's clothes off.
There were many situations in the bible where public, or at least semi-public, nudity was acceptable. Isaiah was commanded by God to go prophesie naked for three years. Peter was fishing naked when Jesus appeared after the resurection. And many scholars contend that baptisms in that time were performed naked, meaning there is every chance that Jesus' own baptism was done sans clothing.
I have had many conversations with Christian naturists and they assure me they do not engage in the practice for sexual reasons. Since they are for the most part all "family values" type people, I have no reason to doubt them, (but no illusions about my own faults which would prompt me to "check it out"). In fact, the communities are pretty strict in regard to any overt sexualized behavior. One must understand the difference between naturist communities and "swinger" type nudist colonies. They are very different.
I personally could not handle going to a nude beach without being tremendously tempted to sexualize what I am seeing. So, I stay away. But that doesn't mean that the people who innocently participate in those communities are inherently sinning.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/11/2008 11:13:09 AM >
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 11:55:36 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 25500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
I have had many conversations with Christian naturists and they assure me they do not engage in the practice for sexual reasons. Since they are for the most part all "family values" type people, I have no reason to doubt them, (but no illusions about my own faults which would prompt me to "check it out"). In fact, the communities are pretty strict in regard to any overt sexualized behavior. One must understand the difference between naturist communities and "swinger" type nudist colonies. They are very different. I know someone who says he is a Christian.
Additionally, he is not married and he regularly goes to 2 different nudist resorts; both of them "family-oriented".
I asked him if his pastor knew and he told me "no" and that additionally, he did not want his pastor to know about it because he didn't think his pastor would approve or understand. My response to that was that there shouldn't be anything about a person's life that they should have to make sure that their pastor wouldn't find out about; especially regarding how one currently lives. That's not to say that a pastor (or anyone else) has to know everything and it's not to say that we have to have our pastor's permission to do whatever it is we want to do . . . but when someone actively strives to keep a specific aspect of their lifestyle such a secret, that is a indication that something is seriously not right . . . it's hypocritical; it outwardly portrays someone as not who they actually are.
To continue . . . a couple of times, he told me about some events that happened at the resort that were turned into private jokes between him and his friends from the resort. I found the stories to be vulgar and quite crude (although, admittedly, it took me a couple of months to actually tell him that).
I questioned this person one time about whether everyone behaved themselves at the resorts, and his reply to me was that sometimes, no, people didn't; but as long as it wasn't hurting anyone, everyone pretty much minded their own business.
This man also participates in different levels of porn. I know this because Our Lord's Holy Spirit prompted me to question him about this.
< Message edited by WhiteRoseBlessings -- 4/11/2008 12:08:47 PM >
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 12:06:38 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I know someone who says he is a Christian.
Additionally, he is not married and he regularly goes to 2 different nudist resorts; both of them "family-oriented".
I asked him if his pastor knew and he told me "no" and that additionally, he did not want his pastor to know about it because he didn't think his pastor would approve or understand. My response to that was that there shouldn't be anything about a person's life that they should have to make sure that their pastor wouldn't find out about. (That's not to say that a pastor has to know everything and it's not to say that we have to have our pastor's permission to do whatever it is we want to do . . . but when someone actively strives to keep a specific aspect of their lifestyle such a secret, that is a indication that something is seriously not right . . . it's hypocritical; it outwardly portrays someone as not who they actually are).
To continue . . . a couple of times, he told me about some events that happened at the resort that were turned into private jokes between him and his friends from the resort. I found the stories to be vulgar and quite crude (although, admittedly, it took me a couple of months to actually tell him that).
I questioned this person one time about whether everyone behaved themselves at the resorts, and his reply to me was that sometimes, no, people didn't; but as long as it wasn't hurting anyone, everyone pretty much minded their own business.
This man also participates in different levels of porn. I know this because Our Lord's Holy Spirit prompted me to question him about this.
Fair enough - I would categorize him as a swinger based on his own actions and words. The people I have talked with display neither those actions or words. Please understand that I am not claiming that everyone who proclaims innocence is in fact innocent. I think it is pretty dicey territory to go wandering into. As I said, I know myself and therefore know that I would not be able to keep a pure thought life if I engaged this community. But that doesn't mean it is inherently and invariably sinful.
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 12:17:48 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 25500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Fair enough - I would categorize him as a swinger based on his own actions and words. The people I have talked with display neither those actions or words. Please understand that I am not claiming that everyone who proclaims innocence is in fact innocent. I think it is pretty dicey territory to go wandering into. As I said, I know myself and therefore know that I would not be able to keep a pure thought life if I engaged this community. But that doesn't mean it is inherently and invariably sinful.
My point was the fact that this person, for all "outwardly" purposes seems like a safe, decent person . . . he himself also said that he wasn't a swinger. He also said that his motives were pure.
However, other things that he told me about his lifestyles indicate quite the opposite.
I don't know your friends, so I can't dispute what they say; nor will I. However, I do know this man. If there's one, like him, that puts on such a good farce, then there are also others doing the very same thing.
That's what people need to understand and be aware of. Not everything that "seems" ok, is
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 12:46:53 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1075
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quote:
I have had many conversations with Christian naturists and they assure me they do not engage in the practice for sexual reasons.
Of course they assure you that everything is above board. All the naturists who have posted on these threads in favor of their "lifestyle" have commented about how the sexual aspect of this lifestyle is minimized.
quote:
Since they are for the most part all "family values" type people, I have no reason to doubt them, (but no illusions about my own faults which would prompt me to "check it out").
How do you know the motives of these folk? Thing is, our culture is a surface level culture. We talk to each other on the surface and, being good Christians, don't want to assume bad things or pry into the lives of others. I'm glaad you are aware enough to recognize your own faults. UNfortunately, there are far too many who deny their own faults and justify their behavior by disguising it as something else.
WShiteroseblessings is spot on in her post about her friend who does not want his pastor to know. Sin thrives in secret. If we are engaging in a lifestyle we're not 100% cdertain God would approve of, we're lying to ourselves, others and God.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 12:57:34 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Of course they assure you that everything is above board. All the naturists who have posted on these threads in favor of their "lifestyle" have commented about how the sexual aspect of this lifestyle is minimized.
How do you know the motives of these folk? Thing is, our culture is a surface level culture. We talk to each other on the surface and, being good Christians, don't want to assume bad things or pry into the lives of others. I'm glaad you are aware enough to recognize your own faults. UNfortunately, there are far too many who deny their own faults and justify their behavior by disguising it as something else.
WShiteroseblessings is spot on in her post about her friend who does not want his pastor to know. Sin thrives in secret. If we are engaging in a lifestyle we're not 100% cdertain God would approve of, we're lying to ourselves, others and God.
I simply assume that there are some (I dare say, most) who are sincere. I think that is a reasonable assumption. I certainly don't have any evidence that they are lying to me, nor do I sense any motivation for them to lie. You seem to assume that none can be sincere, despite their testimony and all other evidence to the contrary.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/11/2008 1:07:44 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
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thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 1:17:42 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
I simply assume that there are some (I dare say, most) who are sincere. I think that is a reasonable assumption. I certainly don't have any evidence that they are lying to me, nor do I sense any motivation for them to lie. You seem to assume that none can be sincere, despite their testimony and all other evidence to the contrary.
Perhaps my perspective is a bit warped. I spent my early adulthood living a very promiscuous life. My introduction to nudism was from a man whose life revolved around sexual conquest. The majority of the people I knew during those years lived lives that revolved around sex, drugs and rock and roll. Since coming to Christ, I have worked in corrections for 16 years. Nine of those years as a probation officer, five years of which was supervising sex offenders. I have heard nearly every excuse, justification, rationalization, etc. When I listen to people tell me that they are inlvolved in some type of "lifestyle" that seems to contradict their reported faith in Christ, my well trained ear tends to get rather skeptical. When a "lifestyle" becomes more important than Christ alone, it becomes idol worship.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 1:37:47 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 25500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
When a "lifestyle" becomes more important than Christ alone, it becomes idol worship.
Very true.
This person that I mentioned earlier . . . he told me that nudism was so important to him that he absolutely would not ever give it up.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 2:24:06 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
When a "lifestyle" becomes more important than Christ alone, it becomes idol worship.
Very true.
This person that I mentioned earlier . . . he told me that nudism was so important to him that he absolutely would not ever give it up.
See, I really do believe that we are talking about two distinct groups of people here, even if both groups call themselves Christians and claim an innocent motivation. Believe me, the truly sincere naturists are well aware and wary of the predatory "nudists".
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 2:30:01 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 25500
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
When a "lifestyle" becomes more important than Christ alone, it becomes idol worship.
Very true.
This person that I mentioned earlier . . . he told me that nudism was so important to him that he absolutely would not ever give it up.
See, I really do believe that we are talking about two distinct groups of people here, even if both groups call themselves Christians and claim an innocent motivation. Believe me, the truly sincere naturists are well aware and wary of the predatory "nudists".
Then why would this person, an unmarried man, be welcomed into "family resorts"?
He's very proud of that particular point. Going by memory, he told me he was the only single man allowed there. (Or he may have been one of only a small few; I'm a bit fuzzy on that particular detail).
He goes to family resorts where there are mothers, fathers and children.
And apparently, at this very same resort are people who "discreetly misbehave with each other", laugh at vulgar things and indulge in porn.
Seems to me that even naturists can be duped . . . and by their own, at that.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 2:54:10 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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From: MN
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quote:
Then why would this person, an unmarried man, be welcomed into "family resorts"?
He's very proud of that particular point. Going by memory, he told me he was the only single man allowed there. (Or he may have been one of only a small few; I'm a bit fuzzy on that particular detail).
He goes to family resorts where there are mothers, fathers and children.
And apparently, at this very same resort are people who "discreetly misbehave with each other", laugh at vulgar things and indulge in porn.
Seems to me that even naturists can be duped . . . and by their own, at that.
All I can say is that he is precisely the type of person the people I have talked to are on the look out for. But they do acknowledge that occassionally, some "undesireables" drift in under the radar. That, of course, is true in any community.
Specifically, if the people here discreetly misbehave with each other and indulge approvingly in porn, this is not the type of family oriented Christian naturist resort I am familiar with. It sounds like a swingers club.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/11/2008 3:00:53 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 3:12:51 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1075
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quote:
See, I really do believe that we are talking about two distinct groups of people here, even if both groups call themselves Christians and claim an innocent motivation. Believe me, the truly sincere naturists are well aware and wary of the predatory "nudists".
No we're not. How can anyone be sure that any person who claims to be a truly sincere naturist is truly sincere? We all have personal motivations for the things we do. What is the motivating factor for most people to hang out with others in the nude? What is the motivating factor for many to look at porn? We have this ability to rationalize and justify all sorts of things to make ourselves feel better about going against what we know to be right.
quote:
All I can say is that he is precisely the type of person the people I have talked to are on the look out for. But they do acknowledge that occassionally, some "undesireables" drift in under the radar. That, of course, is true in any community. Specifically, if the people here discreetly misbehave with each other and indulge approvingly in porn, this is not the type of family oriented Christian naturist resort I am familiar with. It sounds like a swingers club.
It sounds, Gengwall, like you are seeing what you want to see in this matter. IN your mind, it seems, you have divided naturists into two camps: sincere naturists and swingers. If you have any further conversations with naturists who claim to be Christian, do some probing and ask why. Especially those who would expose their families and children to camps where "predators and undesirables" may get in under the radar.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 3:18:47 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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"Bonafide" swinger's resorts would probably not want nor allow children to be present. I'd imagine it would put a big damper on such swinging. I'd also imagine that it would be highly illegal to have children at such a place.
I do need to add a piece of information that I failed to do so earlier: the two resorts that this person visits are not labeled as "Christian" resort. But they are "family resorts", with children present.
Also, for preciseness' sake, I did not say the people at the resort were participating in porn; I said I knew that this one person does.
However, based on what he told me, yes, there are people at the resorts who don't seem to know how to properly behave with and among each other.
But again, my point in this is that here we have a person claiming to be a Christian to everyone around him. Yet he is actively living a lifestyle that is contradicting that statement AND he is trying to keep it a secret from everyone who isn't a nudist.
And yes, hypocrisy happens everywhere from bowling groups to nudist resorts. The insidiousness factor elevates highly when it's someone walking around naked in front of and among other people; regardless of whether those other people believe or disbelieves that not everyone is who they purport theirselves to be.
And again, you said it yourself, you would find it very hard to not be sexually-tempted if visiting a nudist resort. The people who do attend such places . . . being human, they're prone to temptations just like you and just like me.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 3:27:21 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 213
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
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