|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 12:09:10 AM
|
|
|
Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
|
quote:
Maybe if I get an itch someday I will follow up to your question, Kat.
That's okay, it isn't necessary...if it starts bothering you again, just put some Calamine on it!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 3:31:08 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 2559
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
Haha! I got the image of Eric Cartman in a bathtub filled with Calamine lotion.
I know, South Park is evil. I don't watch it anymore, but I can't.... stop... the flashbacks!
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 8:13:26 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
One of the commentaries I read on Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
...said that one possible meaning was the way in which angels worship. I don't know that we are made in such a way as to be able to duplicate this worship or that we are actually commanded to. Not that I buy into that meaning, but it's interesting to see it in this context. Quite honestly, I don't buy that interpretation either (obviously). The main reason would be because then you are questioning the veracity of the translation, and that starts down a whole muck of a path that really isn't the right place to go in this thread. The Bible actually says "worship of angels", so I'm going to go full steam ahead and assume that it means "worshipping angels"... big stretch, I know, but that's where my head would go.quote:
There's more to it than that. Please explain how you can ask for the blood of Jesus to cover our national sins. Personal sins brought to God through Jesus Christ, yes. Yet this is in the pledge and we turn around and are told judgment is prophesied. This sounds very confused. Daniel, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos all repented for the sins of their Nation... Jonah, Joel and Malachi all called the people of a nation to repent for the sins of the nation. Since the Old Testament is New Testament theology in real life, it would seem to be more than doable. The difference, once again, is salvation vs. justice. Personal salvation is obtained through the shed blood of Jesus Christ... mercy on a Nation for the sins of that nation is also obtained through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Justice is what comes when the nation refuses to repent of their sins. What it means to be an intercessor is to identify with the longing of God's heart for certain things to be accomplished on the earth, and pray for those things to come to pass... This is why prayer for salvation and mercy is so important. "This is what the High and lofty One says, 'Shall I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?'" Isaiah 40-41. However, in the midst of God's displeasure over the death of the wicked, He also has an insatiable desire for justice and Righteousness. It is the paradox of these two extremes that makes intercession so important. Through repentence and intercession, God can spare a nation from Judgement and be fully justified in doing so... without them, He must pass judgement. That isn't because His hands are tied, it is because that is what His own nature demands of Him. It is this fact... the fact of His nature... that makes intercession and prayer the single most important thing you can do in your Christian walk. Why? Because God extends to us the offer of helping to shape our World, by praying the desires of His heart back to Him. Maybe someday I will find time to talk about the paradox of desire that is found in God, but it will be a while coming.quote:
I commend your conscience, but I wouldn't teach taking a vow (with no apologies to Robert "Bobby T." Tilton). Hypothetically I don't know _what_ choices there may be to vote for, so in the future it could be a matter of asking God to forgive the vow/pledge, or not voting, as God guides. Robert Tilton teaches what he does, and I'm not sure that he has all four wheels on the road. However, this isn't about Tilton. I will say it again... I will never knowingly vote for a "pro-choice" candidate in my lifetime. If that means not voting, so be it. I still get to vote in Heaven... through intercession of course. "God, may your will be done, and may the candidate YOU endorse be elected." I keep praying that God will give wisdom and revelation to the electorate, because I believe that we are in a "Joshua 24:15" type hour in our history... Choose this day whom you will serve.quote:
But the reason to ask the question is to explore the thinking behind believing these meetings are of God. I tend toward "not" because I would have to accept that these guys are prophetically gifted and that there would be a valid reason for God to call such a series of meetings and that these would be the messengers. Not really. You don't have to accept anything about Mike and Lou. They organized it, and that is an inescapable fact. But, once again, if there is such a problem with them that we can't even repent of our sins, encourage one another, and worship God in their prescence, you might as well petition to have them excommunicated. Considering that there are over 15,000 different Christian denominations in the world today (I wonder how many are Baptist), I find it interesting that we are only talking about Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and the application of Prophecy. I keep wondering if it is because of discussions like this happening amongst people without very much humility or love that there are so many splintered denominations. I mean, once again... are you really so irked by the thought of Mike Bickle that you won't appreciate a prayer meeting that is connected to the man? Okay... a few simple reasons I believe that these meetings are a "God thing".
1. It is truly interdenominational. At the Call-KC (both in 03 and 07) and The Call-Dallas (in 04), I saw Pentecostals standing right next to AoG people praying for a greater Revelation of God and Revival (in KC), and Racial reconciliation and abortion (in Dallas). There were Southern Baptists praying with Lutherans... There were Charismatics dancing next to Methodists. If brought people together for a common purpose... to worship and pray to God.
2. There is prayer. Repentence for personal sin, including freedom from addictions. Vicarious repentance for the sins of the nation. Intercession for revival and mercy. If these things are sinful, then I hope to be the chief among sinners.
3. 12 hours of Worship to God. If nothing else, 20,000 people spent New Year's Eve sitting in the presence of God instead of getting drunk. Sitting in the presence of God will change your life, and 20,000+ did it for 12 hours on December 31st.quote:
What I see is Christians that are already against abortion meeting under the guidance of Bickle and Engle who think they are prophets or gifted and are leading people in some prophetic way. That's a different idea than what's being presented here. To me the end result is Engle being accepted as a prophet and Bickle finding increased acceptance. That's why I say the good Christian kids are buying the whole package. To me, the end result is that people prayed for the ending of a gross, national sin... and quite possibly some recieved a life vision for spending long hours in prayer before the one who holds all life in his hands. I do believe that Mike Bickle and Lou Engle have prophetic gifting... but neither are full-fledged prophets. So yes, we are looking at two very different outcomes... one is focused on Mike Bickle, the other is focused on the other 20,000 people in the room. It's really a matter of not seeing the forrest for the trees... all men are weak, broken individuals who might manage to grasp a hold of something true in their lifetime. However, God loves these weak, broken individuals, so He gave us each other that we might compliment one another and truly BE the body of Christ... the body that is intended to be "perfect, as your father in Heaven is perfect."quote:
You always discount the Bickle track record and seem to indicate that you're not 100 percent endorsing him. I don't endorse the man 100% because I do disagree with him on some doctrinal issues. I don't endorse anyone 100% because nobody is 100% correct... that is the simple rule of being human. As for his "track record", I'm saying merely that I am not what I was in the 1990's, so I can only imagine what kind of change happens to someone in almost more than twenty years. Sure, people change slowly, but geeze... we aren't talking about geological time.quote:
Yet the defenses here seem sometimes like an old tobacco p.r. guy "there's no proof it's harmful, it's a personal choice, even if it's a harmful personal choice you can't say anything about it". So there's no discussion. How about "I enjoy sitting with one Scripture verse all night to see if I get a supernatural revelation, etc." I've downloaded several of IHOP's .pdf files, so I could discuss the prayer room, "meditation", etc., but no one talks about that. Feel free to take this discussion anywhere you so choose... I may not follow for the argument because I honestly might lose interest in sitting under a microscope, but feel free to speak in whatever way you wish. My defenses of IHOP-KC, OneThing, and The Call are all based out of personal experience with all three. I'm not saying "there's no evidence its harmful." I'm saying "I have seen much good come from them." There is a big difference. To reference what "patharris" mentioned earlier, I have used the Bible in many of my defenses... choose to like it or not, it doesn't matter to me. In Orientation for School today, I was again reminded of the difference between head knowledge and revelation... head knowledge is something you have and give mental assent to, whereas revelation is something you know in the core of yourself and actually changes the way you act, and interact with the world.quote:
And what kinds of prayer are effective and appropriate should be up for discussion. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much... I honestly don't see anything "inappropriate" in the debated example... no exaltation of man, no prideful rambling for minutes on end with long words. It was short, to the point, and said many times. That doesn't seem out of line to me.quote:
Engle and Bickle are OT prophets? Or KC prophets? Neither, actually. I didn't say they were OT prophets. They are messengers... tools in the hand of God. That title has been handed to some very interesting characters in world history... Assyria being one, Cyrus being another... but the most intriguing to me is when God referrs to Babylon as his tool in one book, then turns around in another and says that Babylon will be struck down for mishandling the people of God.quote:
Yes, my failure to accept these prophets shows weakness. That was actually not my point. My point was that you are claiming that Mike and Lou showed up and basically were claiming to hear God for all the poor, lonely, spiritually deaf people. The fact is that Lou Engle and Che Ahn (original founders of "The Call") had recieved revelation in Joel 2 about gathering the people, proclaiming a fast, and repenting for the sins of the nation. Out of that revelation, they said "we are going to have a meeting for repenting of sin, worshipping God, and praying for God to shift our nation back to Him... will you come with us?" True, the dreams and visions circulated around, but the point was that God told Lou and Che Ahn to hold prayer meetings for the sins of the nation, and they did. So no, they aren't claiming to hear God for the rest of the world, they are reporting what God told them, which led to their actions, which led to 20,000 people showing up to a prayer meeting.quote:
A minute ago they were OT prophets. Now they're demoted to messengers. Next you'll be calling them voice mail machines. No, they are not OT prophets. Yes, God told them to call people to repent... and they are doing it... and guess what? People are repenting.quote:
Yes it is, Fur, and I don't like that either.
If these guys are so unimportant, it's out of line for them to call these meetings then--but they don't say that, they say they're bringing a prophetic word and there's no dodge around it. So it's a catch-22... if they are important, they aren't right because of their "questionable doctrines", but if they aren't important they shouldn't be calling meetings? So in reality, you are just out to prove Mike Bickle is wrong? Feel free to get rid of your voicemail contraption if you wish, but at some point you have to ask yourself... If most of the people at church complain about how they wish they had more time for "quiet time" with God, why this frenzy over a man who spends his life in "quiet time"?
quote:
Hay now...as in "straw", man. It was actually a quite honest question. Why seek to destroy people who do, even if you won't? Once again, there are 15,000+ denominations in the Christian Church today... are you willing to pick ONE as the only one that is actually right? In the overall sense, does it really matter that much if someone puts duct tape over their mouth and communicates with the Holy Spirit on the inside of them?quote:
I've been reading you for months and I still don't know how you come up with this stuff. I thought at first you were just trying to muddy the waters by painting this onto my posts, but I'm starting to think you really believe I'm doing this. You can't have a discussion without an opposing view. That's all there is to it--I think Bickle's brand is to be avoided. That's not an insult to you. I'm not referrencing an opposing view. I'm referrencing words and tactics that oft follow the opposing view... words such as "duped", "decieved", "misled", "ignorant"... all of which have made appearances in this thread. Which is why I try my darndest to avoid these words at all costs. Rather than civility, how about we shoot for respect? quote:
No one has shown it, but are you? After all, Bickle is pals with Joyner and there's the whole city-church concept which necessitates getting everybody on the same page and ready to accept an "apostle" over the area. But maybe not, maybe this meeting was just about Engle and Bickle. (A) No, this meeting was not about Lou Engle or Mike Bickle... it was about coming together to pray. (B) Yes, Mike is friends with Rick Joyner... so? (C) is the "city-church" model and "apostleship" really that offensive, or is it just a dislike of authority? We know beyond shadow of a doubt that there were at least 13 apostles in the "NT-era"... not all of them wrote things that ended up in the Bible, and certainly not all of them were as spiritually "up" as Paul. So why the kick-back against the idea of apostles?
quote:
the land being cleansed by the shedding of human blood? Let's face it, it is in the Bible...quote:
the excessive repetition of prayers in the belief that God will act because of the repetition or length of time spend in prayer? Once again, this is not the argument being made. The argument being made is that we are attempting to mobilize a large number of people to pray and repent. The whole legnth thing is that we want to be able to spend 40+ years in the state of prayer. How do you pray without ceasing AND without repeating yourself in the process? Get a load of Luke 18... "Shall not God avenge his elect speedily who cry out to Him day and night?" That is what we are going for. Persistence in prayer is not exactly common in Western Society... because we have forgotten what Monasticism looked like. Hope that helps.quote:
Don't get me wrong - you've presented lengthy arguments to try and address my objections. But overwheleming reasoning and biblical arguments? I'll agree, overwhelming is a very subjective term, depending largely on whose side you are on. However, my arguments were Biblically based, and were (relatively) doctrinally sound.quote:
"He didn't mean it that way", "you mistunderstood", and "the angels repeat themselves" are far from overwhelming! At some point we gotta ask ourselves what we are expecting to hear and if it is reasonable to expect to hear it. If you ask me if Mike has claimed to be a Prophet when I've spent four pages arguing about the differences in Prophesy... are you really going to expect me to tell you that Mike claims to be a Prophet? (For the record, he doesn't) When you ask me if I think it is okay to repeat yourself in prayer... and I'm part of a place that does it... do you really expect me to roll over and call you "grand master"? If you ask me if repetition is okay in prayer, it goes into my head where "prayer=form of worship", "angels in heaven repeat not only words, but actions as well... for all of eternity", then those types of answers are going to come out. So, when you ask a question... check to see what you are expecting to hear back, and then ask yourself if it is reasonable to expect to hear it.quote:
I sent a PM several days ago to Adam retracting the comment about his logic. For any who doubt, this is quite true. I took no personal offense to what was written, and I forgave it. It is quite safe to close the book on that issue.quote:
My feathers just don't get ruffled by minor disagreements like they used to when I was younger and thought I had to be right about everything. Once again for those in the cheap seats......... "Ain't the Sermon on the Mount grand..."
Recently I was at a youth group... and this group had a small group prayer time where everyone was supposed to come up with three things that they wanted prayer for. This being something of an upper-middle class neighborhood, all five in the group asked for the same three things... "help with spending time with God on a consistent basis," "Help finding ways to spend more time reading my bible," and "greater spiritual authority." The fun part is that out in Kansas City there is a group that is doing it, and here we are arguing about the merits of it. It would seem that there is this perfect window of what is considered "normal"... if you are too far below what is "normal" you are lazy and in need of help... if you are to far beyond what is "normal" you are a cultish, overly-religious sadsack. Irony, thy name is Christian.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 9:54:48 AM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Maybe if I get an itch someday I will follow up to your question, Kat. But I refuse to make mountains out of molehills like many here have done.
So, no one can explain why the pledge is very incorrectly calling for the "blood of Jesus", precious to each Christian, to cover national sins ?
Is this a molehill? No it is error. If you're pledging this unscripturally and praying this unscripturally, whoa, where's that prophetic leadership? This is shakey ground.
Whose has really "passed judgment and will stubbornly not change their mind"?
Now that I think about it, the confusion is becoming more clear. Are you IHOPers saying these guys prophesy judgment, then intercede and repent on behalf of the sinners, thereby averting the prophesied judgment? What a neat package that is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 12:03:41 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
|
Greetings Wintery! Please notice John the Baptists Testimony:
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Also Daniel the Prophet daily and contiually:
4 I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:
"O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with all who love him and obey his commands, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7 "Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the men of Judah and people of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 O LORD, we and our kings, our princes and our fathers are covered with shame because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14 The LORD did not hesitate to bring the disaster upon us, for the LORD our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
Daniel 9:20
While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill-
We see that Daniel intercedes for His people regarding the Judgments of God, and also Prophesied about the coming kingdoms of the times of the gentiles that would rule with particular regard the city of Jerusalem.
Please see:
Judgment (Decisions) 'weighings out' or Choices regarding the definitions involved in sins piling up until they reach their full measure and are Adjudicated upon in God's court.
We see that Jesus said:
Matthew 23:32
Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! and then the decision of God as recorded in Daniel:
Matthew 24:2
"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Mark 13:2
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
Luke 21:6
"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [ Or off and will have no one ; or off, but not for himself ] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
I am glad to hear that someone is trying to intercede for America and other countries in this day. I wish that every Chruch had continual-type prayer meetings to ask God to help them and their neighborhoods with wisdom so the people who inhabit it in the future, and at this present time can be helped by Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Maybe if I get an itch someday I will follow up to your question, Kat. But I refuse to make mountains out of molehills like many here have done.
So, no one can explain why the pledge is very incorrectly calling for the "blood of Jesus", precious to each Christian, to cover national sins ?
Is this a molehill? No it is error. If you're pledging this unscripturally and praying this unscripturally, whoa, where's that prophetic leadership? This is shakey ground.
Whose has really "passed judgment and will stubbornly not change their mind"?
Now that I think about it, the confusion is becoming more clear. Are you IHOPers saying these guys prophesy judgment, then intercede and repent on behalf of the sinners, thereby averting the prophesied judgment? What a neat package that is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 12:54:50 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings Wintery! Please notice John the Baptists Testimony:
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Yes, but nations don't get saved. We evangelize individual people. The blood of Christ does cover sins that are placed under the blood by the confessing individual. What was referenced was a charismatesque way of praying and speaking. I don't get zonked by drama and emotionalism such as "Give us the nations!" and I see the error in the pledge they are causing people to take. These guys purport to be God's messengers and some Christians don't care if what is taught is biblical "if the cause is right" - or if they're twenty years old and know virtually everything and _can't_ be deceived because they're Christians.
I was trying (apparently poorly) to point out that the emotional atmosphere of a stadium, the fact that other Christians are there and that all are in agreement on the subject of that particular horrible sin does _not_ mean you have to endorse the men leading these meetings or accept their particular concepts of how to reach God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
I am glad to hear that someone is trying to intercede for America and other countries in this day. I wish that every Chruch had continual-type prayer meetings to ask God to help them and their neighborhoods with wisdom so the people who inhabit it in the future, and at this present time can be helped by Him.
I wish that people would accept God's word in which He said
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:20
...instead of bawling and begging for Him to come where the word says He already is, I wish that people would stop seeking a revelation with a mystical approach and understand that God enlightening the Scriptures to you is itself supernatural.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 1:10:33 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
BTW don't bother posting that my reference to "twenty-year-olds" is some kind of insult. I watched a youtube video where the "worldwide" head of Onething said that it is aimed at 18-25 year-olds, and I've worked as a manager of this age group for years. One of my friends was at the Call-Nashville and she's forty-ish--how's that for balance? So just take it for what's it's worth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 1:21:01 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1554
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
...instead of bawling and begging for Him to come where the word says He already is, I wish that people would stop seeking a revelation with a mystical approach and understand that God enlightening the Scriptures to you is itself supernatural.
That drives me nuts! Especially during a time of worship or prayer when someone "invites" the Holy Spirit to come and "dwell in this place". As if He needs permission!
Guess what? If there are believers present, the HS is already there.
Of course the "invite" is nothing more than charismatic-speak to commence with the tounges, flopping around, and yelling and screaming!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 3:08:53 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
24/7 prayer is "absolutely necessary if Christians ever want to see Jesus return"!?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WDBRgZP7ul8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 3:46:53 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
|
Matthew 7:11
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
John 16:24
Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Acts 19:2
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 6:20
Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
We see that we are to be blessed if we are spirit beggars as it is written, and that we need to keep asking him for the Great Gift that He promised of the Holy Spirit to indwell us to produce fruits in keeping with the righteousness that comes by faith.
How can one say that they do not like to ask God of these things?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
...instead of bawling and begging for Him to come where the word says He already is, I wish that people would stop seeking a revelation with a mystical approach and understand that God enlightening the Scriptures to you is itself supernatural.
That drives me nuts! Especially during a time of worship or prayer when someone "invites" the Holy Spirit to come and "dwell in this place". As if He needs permission!
Guess what? If there are believers present, the HS is already there.
Of course the "invite" is nothing more than charismatic-speak to commence with the tounges, flopping around, and yelling and screaming!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 3:48:15 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
|
revelation 22
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
We are to ask and seek the Lords return and also His presence among Us as it is written:
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Mark 1:15
"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
Luke 10:9
Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
Luke 21:31
Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
Matthew 19:13
Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
Mark 10:13
People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them.
Luke 18:15
People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.
Mark 9:38
"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
We see that the disciples made these same mistakes in telling people who were not of their group to stop ministering. For whoever is not against us, is for us is the teaching of Jesus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
24/7 prayer is "absolutely necessary if Christians ever want to see Jesus return"!?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WDBRgZP7ul8
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/11/2008 4:00:54 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 4:21:58 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
We see that the disciples made these same mistakes in telling people who were not of their group to stop ministering. For whoever is not against us, is for us is the teaching of Jesus.
Not hardly the whole story. You missed the Sceva report.
Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
You've got to be actually of God to act in His name effectively. Our will in His name is not enough. The train's been off the track a long time with these guys. When you listen to those who are prophesying from their own imaginations you're at a minimum wasting your time.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 4:54:28 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
|
Greetings wintery! I was unaware that they were only faking prophecy and did not have the gift. I don't remember anyone reporting that they were attacked by anyone who had an unclean spirit and beating anyone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
You've got to be actually of God to act in His name effectively. Our will in His name is not enough. The train's been off the track a long time with these guys. When you listen to those who are prophesying from their own imaginations you're at a minimum wasting your time.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 5:17:31 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings wintery! I was unaware that they were only faking prophecy and did not have the gift. I don't remember anyone reporting that they were attacked by anyone who had an unclean spirit and beating anyone.
Ha. Moving along, try the link to youtube I posted. Then read this:
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
How can anyone compare Mike Bickle's words on the video to these verses and not understand that he is adding to Scripture --at least?--If not outright contradicting the plain understanding.
You would think IHOP would _love_ these verses--angels, prophecy, right there.
Plainly, he will "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven", period.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 5:44:01 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
|
Greetings! If the Lord is among His people with His Kingdom, shouldn't we invite Him more and more today so the Kingdom can be manifested among us more?
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Mark 11:10
"Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!" "Hosanna in the highest!"
Luke 17:20
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within or among you."
We see that the Kingdom of God is coming among His people today with the Gift of Salvation and every kind of Good Spiritual gift as it is written in Paul:
9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.
We know that the Jews were taught to make this same error, to look for the coming Reign of Jesus Christ in the Millennium only and not for His Spiritual Kingdom Reign among them as they wait in earnest expectation of the Day to be revealed. We see that Paul is constantly praying for the Saints of the Most High that they would not be found lacking any Good Spiritual Gift in Christ in the encouragement of each others faith..
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings wintery! I was unaware that they were only faking prophecy and did not have the gift. I don't remember anyone reporting that they were attacked by anyone who had an unclean spirit and beating anyone.
Ha. Moving along, try the link to youtube I posted. Then read this:
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
How can anyone compare Mike Bickle's words on the video to these verses and not understand that he is adding to Scripture --at least?--If not outright contradicting the plain understanding.
You would think IHOP would _love_ these verses--angels, prophecy, right there.
Plainly, he will "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven", period.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/13/2008 4:33:26 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/11/2008 10:32:11 PM
|
|
|
stimulus
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
the land being cleansed by the shedding of human blood? Let's face it, it is in the Bible...
Well, there you have it. You believe that human blood atones for sin. To say human blood, after the sacrifice of Jesus' blood, has any standing or merit before God to cleanse from sin... well, that's a little close to the essentials of Christianity for me to swallow.
quote:
quote:
the excessive repetition of prayers in the belief that God will act because of the repetition or length of time spend in prayer?
Once again, this is not the argument being made. The argument being made is that we are attempting to mobilize a large number of people to pray and repent. The whole legnth thing is that we want to be able to spend 40+ years in the state of prayer. How do you pray without ceasing AND without repeating yourself in the process? Get a load of Luke 18... "Shall not God avenge his elect speedily who cry out to Him day and night?" That is what we are going for. Persistence in prayer is not exactly common in Western Society... because we have forgotten what Monasticism looked like. Hope that helps.
I understand that IHOP wants to mobilize lots of people to pray for long periods of time. The idea, however, is that praying for long periods of time makes the prayers more effective (otherwise, why keep praying?) I think that's a distortion of "pray without ceasing", "ask, seek, knock", and the parable of the persistent widow. You want to take those passages literally, which then means you have to take what Jesus said in Matthew 6 figuratively. I don't know what the right balance is between "praying without ceasing" and "babbling on like pagans", but I think IHOP's practices need to reevaluated in the light of the entirety of the Bible's teachings on prayer, as I think repeating the same prayer many times in rapid succession in the belief that the length of time spent in prayer, number of repetitions, or emotion put into the prayer will move the heart of God more than a single, sincere, humble prayer ignores what Jesus said in Matthew 6.
I'm all for lengthy times of prayer. I've felt for some time that the American church, during our services, spend way too little time in prayer. His house is to be a house of prayer for all nations, yet there is little prayer that happens in many churches. When our songs turn into true worship and not just singing, it's akin to prayer, but almost every church I've ever attended spend little corporate time in prayer. Announcements often seem to get a larger slice of the church service than prayer, particularly if you don't "count" the time individuals may spend praying while someone leads singing. I do admire IHOP's desire to spend considerable time in prayer, but I don't think ignoring what Jesus said about repetition justifies the ends. I don't think a prayer becomes more effective the more times you say it.
And yes, it is possible to pray for extended periods of time without repeating the same word over and over and over again for 30 minutes. This week for me has been a God-send after the Call last week. As I mentioned, I work for a pentecostal denomination. They set aside a day every year for fasting and praying in their churches, and our staff participates. We prayed for about six hours together one day this week - about the same length of time I was at the Call. The leaders planned the day well, and we spent hour after hour in prayer without the need to pray the same words endlessly. We could have prayed for 12 hours without 30 minute life chants. There is plenty to pray for - and plenty of Scripture to provide new words for prayers, plenty of guidance by the Holy Spirit, and plenty of diversity in people - to not have to pray the same words for 30 minutes.
At the same time, my church had prayer meetings every night this week, as we start a new year and begin searching for a new pastor. Just an hour a night for four nights, but again, no need to tell everyone "pray these 22 words 7 times fast and God will hear you" or anything of the sort. So I don't buy the idea that IHOP's methods are the only way to pray without ceasing.
quote:
quote:
Don't get me wrong - you've presented lengthy arguments to try and address my objections. But overwheleming reasoning and biblical arguments?
I'll agree, overwhelming is a very subjective term, depending largely on whose side you are on. However, my arguments were Biblically based, and were (relatively) doctrinally sound.
quote:
"He didn't mean it that way", "you mistunderstood", and "the angels repeat themselves" are far from overwhelming!
At some point we gotta ask ourselves what we are expecting to hear and if it is reasonable to expect to hear it. If you ask me if Mike has claimed to be a Prophet when I've spent four pages arguing about the differences in Prophesy... are you really going to expect me to tell you that Mike claims to be a Prophet? (For the record, he doesn't) When you ask me if I think it is okay to repeat yourself in prayer... and I'm part of a place that does it... do you really expect me to roll over and call you "grand master"? If you ask me if repetition is okay in prayer, it goes into my head where "prayer=form of worship", "angels in heaven repeat not only words, but actions as well... for all of eternity", then those types of answers are going to come out. So, when you ask a question... check to see what you are expecting to hear back, and then ask yourself if it is reasonable to expect to hear it.
I'm not at all surprised that you defend your church\movement. That is entirely normal.
Mike may not claim to be a prophet, but Lou does. Or at least he's okay with Mike claiming it on his behalf before 20,000 people and a TV audience for roughly an hour.
Angels repeat themselves in heaven, but again, we're not angels. So the so-called Biblical argument is lacking.
I realize that we aren't going to get anywhere with this. None of us are really even debating these points any more. Our conversations sum up pretty easily, and they are just arguments at this point where we keep repeating ourselves. I think it's really clear that Jesus said not to pray with vain repetitions, and I think that teachings was ignored at the Call. You think I don't really understand what Jesus meant or what happened at the Call. I think what was taught concerning the power of human blood to cleanse from sin is dangerous theology, but you apparently think it's truth. We can go back and forth about this for all eternity, but I don't see any potential of us ever agreeing.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/12/2008 12:03:13 PM
|
|
|
Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
|
There is a thread in the Faithwalk folder on Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Chruch. Someone rightly called this "church" a cult and un-Christian and Adam responded:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Myself, I'm not willing to go that far. I think they have very very little Love within their hearts for the outside world, but I'm not willing to say they arne't true Christians... simply because I don't know. Based on their website, they had much the same problem as Jerry Falwell... Half-correct opinions and less then half as much love. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and false religions... the people of other races thing is purely imagination.
When I noted in an earlier post in this thread that I felt that Mike Bickle/IHop displayed many of the characteristics of a cult/cult leader, Adam, of course said I was pretty much out of my mind. After reading his viewpoint on Westboro, one has to wonder if Adam would qualify any church a cult. Westboro could serve as a model for anyone wanting to put a cult together, and everything they are and everything they do is in complete opposition to everything Christianity should be.
Anyone who would view Westboro/Phelps and his group of terrorists (yes, I'd classify them as terrorists) as just having "very little love in their hearts" loses all credibility as far as I'm concerned.
ETA: Spelling and incomplete sentence correction.
< Message edited by Kat_D -- 1/12/2008 12:24:43 PM >
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/13/2008 11:19:34 AM
|
|
|
hvt
Posts: 20
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
|
1/13/08
Hello brethren,
I am new to this forum. I began reading this thread one month after it began, and have eagerly followed it ever since. There have been few discussions online that have captivated me as this one has. You see, I have, throughout my nearly thirty years of knowing Christ, been involved in one way or another with the prophetic, albeit as a bystander mostly.
At one point, during this thread, I thought, “Here is the making of an interesting play.” I felt myself able to, in some degree, project myself into each submission presented from both sides of the argument, and even sense the tones, inflections and motives (good and bad) being given. It was quite exhilarating. Some brilliant debating from booth corners for sure!
That being said, I would like to challenge each of you to read this introduction to a book entitled “The Prophetic Call.” The whole book can be freely downloaded, if you so wish to read more, from the following website: www.benisrael.org (online book link). For insight into the life of the author (Art Katz), I highly recommend “Ben Israel—Odyssey of a Modern Jew.”
Thank you all for a most challenging and informative debate. God bless each of you
hvt
The Prophetic Call
Introduction
________________________________________
There are two great words that I guard with a fierce jealousy, namely, prophetic and apostolic. The church is "...built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets...(Eph. 2:20b)", and if those two words are ruined, cheapened, made merchandise of, lose their meaning or are made to stand for something that God did not intend, then we have lost our foundation. If there is something flaky about our apostles and prophets, then what will the superstructure be if it is based on that foundation? The superstructure cannot exceed the foundation, and therefore the foundation deserves the most exceeding attention. This has been my long-standing passion and jealousy, and in a certain sense, a kind of a watchdog over these words, that they should not be used indiscriminately nor lightly, which in fact is exactly what is happening today.
Even if we cannot articulate or explain them, we need to intuit what they represent and the importance of what they represent, or we will indeed lose them. I would go further to say that the greatest threat of our contemporary, charismatic and evangelical Christianity is the cheap and light allusions to, and use of, these words. We throw them about with great carelessness and there are ministers taking for themselves their title, or allowing themselves to be so described, who are not in that office or may be false expressions of it.
There is a present phenomenon taking place worldwide of a sudden attention to the prophetic calling. One of the interesting things to note is the popularity now of that calling, with people gleefully tripping off to pack out churches in order to hear men who are being called 'prophets' and 'oracles'. It is a phenomenon that we need to attend with great care. We are told that in the last days that there will be false prophets, false apostles and false anointings. In the book of Revelation, the church in Ephesus is congratulated by the Lord for discerning the false apostles, "those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false (Rev 2:2b)."
I am continually amazed at the naiveté and the ignorance with which these great words are being used. It has become so bad that people cannot even distinguish between the gift of prophecy and the office of prophet. I cannot think of a more fundamental confusion that would destroy the foundation of the church than this one thing alone. It is like a brush that is painting everything in the same color. The office of prophet is so holy, "the holy prophets of old." The gift of prophecy is something else and can be exercised through any believer as the Spirit wills. That does not make them a prophet and we need to make that distinction.
The most formidable character of deception in the last days is not going to be something so bizarre that it can be instantly identified as being out of the bowels of Hell, but rather it is going to be couched in the most conventional, orthodox and biblical language. The persecution of the remnant church of the last days is not so much the threat that comes to us from the world, but from a religious dimension that think that they are doing God a service. It will be more difficult to discern the good than the evil. Evil is apparent, but good is subtle. Good has much going for it and much to commend it, but if the good is not from God and just emanates from a kind of altruistic, humanistic personality, then good will be just as destructive to the interests of God as evil. That which appears as good will keep us from the particular and perfect will of God, and it is, therefore, more deadly than evil as it is not recognized as evil, because it purports to be good.
How, therefore, will we discern? We have got to hate that which is good—the false good; that which purports to be good; that which appears to be good; that which will appeal humanistically to us as being nice, pleasant or right. We need to hate good in that sense, to hate sentimentality and to hate that which gives a nice feeling. The false prophet is the one who says, "Peace, peace, where there is no peace." He 'makes nice', and which of us does not like 'nice' and to be 'made nice'. There is something that yearns for it, and therefore they have a ready market, large audiences, great responses and mass mailing lists, because we want that which is nice, good and pleasant to the ear.
There are two parallel tracks, the fictitious and assumed, presumptuous nonsense of men and the authentic thing, now in process of restoration from God. One will flatter you and make nice with entreaties to your flesh and the other will call you to the cross, and by that you can know who are the true prophets and the false.
The false prophets of Baal with whom Elijah was in contest actually thought that there would be a god to answer. They thought that there was going to be a fire from heaven. They were not cynical men who were religiously posturing because they were connivers, but they really thought that God was going to see them dancing and jumping and cutting themselves in the frenzy. They were deluded and deceived themselves. The false prophets of the last days are well-meaning men with sincere intentions, fully persuaded that they are right and that the other man is the person who is in error. What distinguishes, therefore, the one from the other? This question is not only valid for those who call themselves prophets but also for each and every individual in the church. This issue of true or false is a critical issue and it is the issue of the cross in authentic appropriation and not just in credal acknowledgment. Merely to credally acknowledge something as true is itself the heart of deception and apostasy. We have been seduced and induced to think that if we just passively acknowledge something as being doctrinally true, then that is the statement of its truth. It falls short, however, of the existential reality that God is after.
If we ourselves are satisfied with mere credal affirmations of the truth of the faith, and have not pressed in and wrestled to get the existential power of it, then we will not be able to communicate it to anyone. What we are seeing in the new crop of 'prophets' is a testimony of a failed Christianity that has not pressed in, has not wrestled, but has been satisfied with mere creedal affirmation, sufficient for us to get by, but insufficient for His glory. Everthing rests in the existential appropriation of the faith.
There is something about the seductive power of the approval and acceptance of man that works in us as a leaven for disaster. There is something that men covet to be approved by their fellows, to receive their appreciation and to be honored by them. To be indifferent to that honor and approval and to speak the necessary word however much you will bring painful rejection can only be borne by someone who has no life unto himself. It is all the same to him as to whether he is accepted or rejected, misunderstood or approved, all of that is to say, that the issue between the true prophet and the false is the issue of the cross. Flattery is an antichrist mode of winning and influencing men. It is so beguiling, for who does not love to be flattered or to be acknowledged and recognized?
We need, therefore, to grow up in the ability to discern and sense the truth in general, and especially truth about this calling. It may well be that certain practitioners are so artful and so appearing to be prophetic that crowds will run after them, and the true man, who does not cut any impression and is a 'wallflower', so to speak, is altogether ignored, and yet he is the bearer of God's word. Thus is there a premium on the church to come of age, and the very coming of age is, in fact, also at the same time, part of the prophetic process. That is to say, we come of age because we hear the word of God, the prophetic word, that requires of us to grow up, and in growing up we are able to discern the realities of the last days.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/13/2008 1:56:57 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5282
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
|
How can anyone NOT see Westboro as a cult?
WOW.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/13/2008 10:30:24 PM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, no one can explain why the pledge is very incorrectly calling for the "blood of Jesus", precious to each Christian, to cover national sins ? Can you think of a better way to repent for sin? I'm sure that if the "blood of Jesus" was not used, we would be arguing about why IHOP believes that forgiveness of sins can be found apart from Jesus(which they don't).quote:
Now that I think about it, the confusion is becoming more clear. Are you IHOPers saying these guys prophesy judgment, then intercede and repent on behalf of the sinners, thereby averting the prophesied judgment? What a neat package that is. Uhm... Amos did... The reality is that without forgiveness, Judgement is the only other option. Or would you really be happier if Mike and Lou just said "You sinners are doomed! Muh-hah-hah-hah! We're going to dance on your graves!" Considering all the ire about the Westboro people, I would think this would be a breath of fresh air.quote:
I hope these links will be useful.
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/the-prophetic-shell-game/
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/bridal-mysticism/ In case you missed it, I will say again that I put absolutely no stock in the words of the Sign of Jonah people. Why? Because they ascribe to High-Calvinism, they are very combative in their speech, and they seem to have no love for the people who disagree with them.quote:
Yes, but nations don't get saved. We evangelize individual people. The blood of Christ does cover sins that are placed under the blood by the confessing individual. What was referenced was a charismatesque way of praying and speaking. I never said Nations get saved. IHOP has never said that nations get saved. What we are asking is for God to forgive the current sins of the nation so we don't get judged. If you would much rather we just sit back and watch the country get plastered because we didn't pray, that isn't going to happen. I would suggest looking for the "Transformations" videos by George Otis Jr. It has several amazing examples of people repenting for national and regional sins, then God breaks in and the Gospel goes forth in power.quote:
These guys purport to be God's messengers and some Christians don't care if what is taught is biblical "if the cause is right" - or if they're twenty years old and know virtually everything and _can't_ be deceived because they're Christians. Speaking of logical errors........... Isn't there something about judging something to be right by it's age? Also, I never claimed to know everything. Calling me a know-it-all really doesn't add credence to your argument... it just means you are frustrated that I'm not bowing to your mental prowess. I also never said that I couldn't be decieved... it your judgement that I am decieved, and that also does nothing for your argument.quote:
I was trying (apparently poorly) to point out that the emotional atmosphere of a stadium, the fact that other Christians are there and that all are in agreement on the subject of that particular horrible sin does _not_ mean you have to endorse the men leading these meetings or accept their particular concepts of how to reach God.
Quite true. Stimulus proved that much. I will say that emotions are not evil... I say so because even God has them (ie, he delights in giving mercy, my hatred will burn forever... that kind of thing)quote:
I wish that people would accept God's word in which He said
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:20
...instead of bawling and begging for Him to come where the word says He already is, I wish that people would stop seeking a revelation with a mystical approach and understand that God enlightening the Scriptures to you is itself supernatural. Quite true on both counts... that is what I do every night in the Prayer Room is ask for revelation in the Bible. The problem, as I said earlier, is that God is a mystical God. He speaks and the earth is created. Can you read the biography of Billy Graham and KNOW Billy Graham? Of course not. That is why prayer is so important at IHOP-KC.quote:
24/7 prayer is "absolutely necessary if Christians ever want to see Jesus return"!?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WDBRgZP7ul8 Absolutely. Revelation 22... "The Spirit and the Bride say come!" Question, who is the Bride? If you said "The Church" you are absolutely correct! Matthew 23... "for I sat to you, you shall see me no more till you say, 'blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord'" Who is this talking about? Israel! So, Israel will be praying to Jesus, the Church will be praying to Jesus... sounds pretty conclusive to me. When Jesus returns, the Church and the Messianic Jews will be praying.quote:
You've got to be actually of God to act in His name effectively. Our will in His name is not enough. The train's been off the track a long time with these guys. When you listen to those who are prophesying from their own imaginations you're at a minimum wasting your time. Wintery... would you care to level an actual accusation, or will you continue to rant? First, the seven sons of Sceva did not have relationship with Christ. They prayed "in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches". I have yet to see anybody doing anything similar at IHOP-KC. Second, with how fast the prayer movement is growing, it is either a move of God, or it is the feared "falling away"... because it shows no evidence of slowing down. Are you really willing to say that IHOP-KC is full of apostate/misinformed/formely saved Christians?quote:
How can anyone compare Mike Bickle's words on the video to these verses and not understand that he is adding to Scripture --at least?--If not outright contradicting the plain understanding.
You would think IHOP would _love_ these verses--angels, prophecy, right there.
Plainly, he will "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven", period. And He will return in the same manner. He will descend on the clouds, in communion with his disciples. So, until Jesus returns, how do you maintain communion with Jesus? Prayer.quote:
Well, there you have it. You believe that human blood atones for sin. To say human blood, after the sacrifice of Jesus' blood, has any standing or merit before God to cleanse from sin... well, that's a little close to the essentials of Christianity for me to swallow. Not what I said. I said that the land is cleansed by the shedding of Blood. Jesus was a human... fully God, yes, but fully man as well. So, either we recieve forgiveness for our sins by the shed blood of Jesus, or there will be justice for the shedding of blood... and the OT describes what that is.quote:
At the same time, my church had prayer meetings every night this week, as we start a new year and begin searching for a new pastor. Just an hour a night for four nights, but again, no need to tell everyone "pray these 22 words 7 times fast and God will hear you" or anything of the sort. So I don't buy the idea that IHOP's methods are the only way to pray without ceasing. Never said they were. Our methods are what we use... considering that we have been operating 24/7 for 8+ years now, it seems that the model works for allowing extended prayer.quote:
Mike may not claim to be a prophet, but Lou does. Or at least he's okay with Mike claiming it on his behalf before 20,000 people and a TV audience for roughly an hour. And this conclusion was exactly why Mike was very specific about saying that that was NOT about honoring Lou Engle. He said that Lou was a "prophet to the nation concerning the issue of abortion". Once again, not claiming to be a full "Office of a Prophet" but to have revelation in a certain area.quote:
Angels repeat themselves in heaven, but again, we're not angels. So the so-called Biblical argument is lacking. Except that you are having to explain away a biblical proof by using an argument as weak as the ones you claim I used that were weak. So really, this is a difference of opinion, and not biblicality. At least I used scripture to defend myself.quote:
When I noted in an earlier post in this thread that I felt that Mike Bickle/IHop displayed many of the characteristics of a cult/cult leader, Adam, of course said I was pretty much out of my mind. After reading his viewpoint on Westboro, one has to wonder if Adam would qualify any church a cult. Westboro could serve as a model for anyone wanting to put a cult together, and everything they are and everything they do is in complete opposition to everything Christianity should be.
Anyone who would view Westboro/Phelps and his group of terrorists (yes, I'd classify them as terrorists) as just having "very little love in their hearts" loses all credibility as far as I'm concerned. Then I feel very sorry for you. First, I never said you were out of your mind... I explained why IHOP does not have characteristics of a cult. Westboro is ultra-conservative, true... but they aren't the only ones. I think I will see many people in heaven who attended Westboro Baptist, and I think they will be weeping before the throne when they see just how little love they had. They follow Christ, they are dogmatic about doctrine, and they have no love or meekness to follow it up. For example, it is true that God hates homosexuality... however, because of the lack of love exhibited by the speakers, it comes across as vile tripe. And, between you and me, I lost all credibility in your eyes the second I said I was associated with IHOP-KC... so I lose very little in the long run.quote:
How can anyone NOT see Westboro as a cult?
WOW. Are you really suprised? You were convinced that IHOP-KC is a cult. So once again, I lose very little in the long run. I'm praying for WBC that they would recieve a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ... but until they begin seperating themselves from the rest of the world in a very intentional way, I'm going to hold my fire. Maybe I'm just too merciful, but better to err on the side of mercy, yes? I wonder how many people here, when faced with the decision of stoning the woman caught in fornication would have immediately started throwing rocks, and not defending the opressed. Just a thought to chew on.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 9:09:17 AM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
I have to return to say this. How ANYONE can compare WBC to IHOP, is beyond me. While I do disagree with Adam, and I do believe that WBC is a unchristian cult, they are FAR different than IHOP. As much as I disagree with some of what IHOP teaches, to say that it is a cult, or even close to similar to WBC, offends even me! If people can not see the difference, then I pity that person. For all their faults (like we all have), the people at IHOP are driven by a desire to share the love of Christ Jesus. They LOVE others, and that is why they pray for them, and why they want to warn them of what they believe to be the coming earthly judgment of God. WBC, does not love anyone but themselves. They spread hate, vile filth, condemning others happy that God is going to judge them. So how anyone can even think of putting these two groups in the same box is sad.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 11:10:54 AM
|
|
|
Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have to return to say this. How ANYONE can compare WBC to IHOP, is beyond me. While I do disagree with Adam, and I do believe that WBC is a unchristian cult, they are FAR different than IHOP. As much as I disagree with some of what IHOP teaches, to say that it is a cult, or even close to similar to WBC, offends even me! If people can not see the difference, then I pity that person. For all their faults (like we all have), the people at IHOP are driven by a desire to share the love of Christ Jesus. They LOVE others, and that is why they pray for them, and why they want to warn them of what they believe to be the coming earthly judgment of God. WBC, does not love anyone but themselves. They spread hate, vile filth, condemning others happy that God is going to judge them. So how anyone can even think of putting these two groups in the same box is sad.
Please don't misquote me. I did not compare IHop to WBC...go back and re-read my post. While I do believe IHop has cult like characteristics, I in no way compared it to WBC. My point was that if Adam can't see WBC for what it really is (a hate mongering cult), how can he make a proper judgment call about IHop?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 11:29:59 AM
|
|
|
stateofgrace
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Just as an example of how widespread the IHOP influence is becoming...a wonderful young woman who is involved with the youth at church, and who is a mentor to my younger daughter and a number of other teenage girls, just gave them a whole bunch of material from IHOP.
Turns out that she went to one of the recent conferences and was really coming on strong about her experience. I love this young lady and am greatly sorrowed that she is not being very discerning about this situation.
I had a conversation with my daughter last night about some of the doctrine, especially prophets/false prophets and the bridal thing. It's really challenging to discuss this with a not-yet-15 yo. I suggested she go look at the bridal illustrations in the NT and then determine for herself if God is referring to us individually marrying Christ or the church universal as Christ's bride.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
