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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 12:07:23 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! If the Lord is among His people with His Kingdom, shouldn't we invite Him more and more today so the Kingdom can be manifested among us more?
Yes and no. Can you understand the difference in seeking to please God in personal accountability rather than trying to grab hold of a "manifestation" or trying to become a part of a movement? I take it you're referring to the 24 hour prayer place concept as inviting Him more and more? The earth rotates and the sun goes up and down from our viewpoint in our position on the globe. It is quite likely that someone, somewhere is praying and praising God every moment. There is no need to line up behind every pied piper who is giving the impression that there's more of God over here than there is over there. Reference?
Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
When someone is telling you they have the prophetic word it it building them up, they, themselves. The ear of the audience turns to hear what they think might be a word from God. Despite all the talk about how Scriptural this is, there is simply no mechanism for shutting down those who say they are prophets, but they are not. There's a big market for the product that is religion, and I've never seen a time when I thought there were more "itching ears".
2nd Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Is that time now? And if you're listening, devoid of sound doctrine, to those purporting to be prophets, how will you be seeking the truth or adhering to the simplicity in Christ?
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3
While I'm not calling this the be-all, end-all fulfillment of this verse,
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Matthew 24:26
I do see some elements of truth to be applied.
Psalms 139:7-12
(7) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
(8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
(9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
(10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
(11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
(12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
God is everywhere and is there for you 24/7/365.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 12:38:49 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have to return to say this. How ANYONE can compare WBC to IHOP, is beyond me. While I do disagree with Adam, and I do believe that WBC is a unchristian cult, they are FAR different than IHOP. As much as I disagree with some of what IHOP teaches, to say that it is a cult, or even close to similar to WBC, offends even me! If people can not see the difference, then I pity that person. For all their faults (like we all have), the people at IHOP are driven by a desire to share the love of Christ Jesus. They LOVE others, and that is why they pray for them, and why they want to warn them of what they believe to be the coming earthly judgment of God. WBC, does not love anyone but themselves. They spread hate, vile filth, condemning others happy that God is going to judge them. So how anyone can even think of putting these two groups in the same box is sad.
Please don't misquote me. I did not compare IHop to WBC...go back and re-read my post. While I do believe IHop has cult like characteristics, I in no way compared it to WBC. My point was that if Adam can't see WBC for what it really is (a hate mongering cult), how can he make a proper judgment call about IHop?
Dont take this as a defence of WBC, but the reverse is true. If you can not see where IHOP is different than WBC, then how can you make a judgment call on WBC itself? If even in small areas you are lumping IHOP and WBC, then you dont now what either is about.
I will say it again, I disagree with alot of what IHOP teaches. But in my eyes, they are NO DIFFERENT than my disagreements with what traditional AoG churches (tongues), or Presbyterians churches teach (pedobaptism).
You may call IHOP a "cult" but that does not make it so. And strictly speaking, by so loosely throwing cult around, you can call many Christian groups a cult. SBC, AoG, non-denoms, ect.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 1:28:39 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1584
Joined: 4/12/2005
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It also depends on how one is defining a cult - based on beliefs (in other words, deviating from the mainstream of a religion) or based on sociological and psychological aspects. Rick Ross has an article on his site that focuses mainly on the second group of defining factors.
Robert Jay Lifton defined these three characteristics:
- A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.
- A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.
- Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/14/2008 4:05:37 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Can you think of a better way to repent for sin? I'm sure that if the "blood of Jesus" was not used, we would be arguing about why IHOP believes that forgiveness of sins can be found apart from Jesus(which they don't).
This is incorrect. Just as some put anointing oil on houses or microphones
they call for the "blood of Jesus" in an abstract way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Uhm... Amos did... The reality is that without forgiveness, Judgement is the only other option.
The reality is that salvation is of individual souls. I have really wondered if anyone chanting "life" and praying for the end of abortion understood what they were asking for. Since not one word of response was given to my post regarding the woman who, though already saved, repented during prayer with some other women of three abortions. Do you think of her as "dirty"? Would you welcome unwed pregnant teenagers? Would their parents quit the church out of shame? Would you forgive a young man who paid for an abortion who genuinely repented? Have you actually thought about these things or have you been sloganeering for politics alone?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Or would you really be happier if Mike and Lou just said "You sinners are doomed! Muh-hah-hah-hah! We're going to dance on your graves!"
I don't recognize Mike and Lou. They just happen to influence a few people I know.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
In case you missed it, I will say again that I put absolutely no stock in the words of the Sign of Jonah people. Why? Because they ascribe to High-Calvinism, they are very combative in their speech, and they seem to have no love for the people who disagree with them.
I'm not into Calvinism. But the comments people left about IHOP and on the Bob Jones page were interesting. The OP had asked for info. I liked where they pointed out the over-emphasis on the church as the bride. I liked the comment that said something like "wasn't Bob Jones already discredited at IHOP or whatever it's called now?"
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
If you would much rather we just sit back and watch the country get plastered because we didn't pray, that isn't going to happen.
Don't let my "leaven" stand in the way. Maybe IHOP should be in Smallville.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Quite true on both counts... that is what I do every night in the Prayer Room is ask for revelation in the Bible. The problem, as I said earlier, is that God is a mystical God.
One of my friends is a minister in North Carolina. He likes to say that Christianity _is_ an "eastern religion", it came out of the Middle East. I think he's wrong in making that comparison as I think you were on the wrong track in the astral projection thread. The last time I visited the Joyner-Bickle following church I attended for so many years, a woman was virtually bawling that she didn't "understand why (He) won't come here--we're all trying so hard". Of course she was not a leader there, but her comment shows a certain way of thinking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Can you read the biography of Billy Graham and KNOW Billy Graham? Of course not.
I think you wouldn't like his comments on abortion.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/17/2008 2:37:07 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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Due to starting classes this week, my responses are going to be much fewer and farther in between. With that, I hope all will have grace if my response time isn't what you hoped for.
Stateofgrace:
quote:
Just as an example of how widespread the IHOP influence is becoming...a wonderful young woman who is involved with the youth at church, and who is a mentor to my younger daughter and a number of other teenage girls, just gave them a whole bunch of material from IHOP.
Turns out that she went to one of the recent conferences and was really coming on strong about her experience. I love this young lady and am greatly sorrowed that she is not being very discerning about this situation.
I had a conversation with my daughter last night about some of the doctrine, especially prophets/false prophets and the bridal thing. It's really challenging to discuss this with a not-yet-15 yo. I suggested she go look at the bridal illustrations in the NT and then determine for herself if God is referring to us individually marrying Christ or the church universal as Christ's bride. So realistically, this is a misunderstanding of the bridal paradigm. We as individuals are not involved in "boyfriend/girlfriend" type relationship with Jesus. I am not individually the Bride of Christ. The church is the Bride of Christ. What the bridal paradigm is, is saying that the way Jesus feels about the Church is the way he feels about me. All that passion for righteousness, wholehearted love, and the sermon on the mount lifestyle Jesus has for the church, Jesus also has for me. It is Jesus love for me that then motivates me to live holier, love others more, love God more, and observe more of the acts of "Christian piety". Now, we will all be at the "wedding supper of the lamb" spelled out by Jesus, but that is because the Church is the Bride.
Wintery:
quote:
Yes and no. Can you understand the difference in seeking to please God in personal accountability rather than trying to grab hold of a "manifestation" or trying to become a part of a movement? I take it you're referring to the 24 hour prayer place concept as inviting Him more and more? The earth rotates and the sun goes up and down from our viewpoint in our position on the globe. It is quite likely that someone, somewhere is praying and praising God every moment. There is no need to line up behind every pied piper who is giving the impression that there's more of God over here than there is over there. Once again, without faith it is impossible to please God. Even better, why try to "please" God when he is already happy? You look through the descriptions of God's character, and you'll find that he is constantly happy.
Why rely on "quite likely" instead of realizing the "quite literally"? It's the same problem as putting burdens on "someone else". The point is that God desires worship and adoration... to the point that Jesus said "if these keep silent, even the rocks will cry out." Realistically, what is the harm of praying, worshipping, and interceding for 24 hours a day? In Luke 18, I find it interesting that Jesus makes the point of crying out night and day, and then immediately connects it with the idea of his return (when the son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?).
quote:
When someone is telling you they have the prophetic word it it building them up, they, themselves. The ear of the audience turns to hear what they think might be a word from God. Despite all the talk about how Scriptural this is, there is simply no mechanism for shutting down those who say they are prophets, but they are not. There's a big market for the product that is religion, and I've never seen a time when I thought there were more "itching ears". Actually, there is. Stop listening to them. It is really that easy. If someone claims to be a prophet and their prophecy is rubbish, don't listen to them. Pray for God to give wisdom and revelation to the followers of said prophet. Don't ask for the destruction of the prophet, because that is God's arena... don't ask for the destruction of the ministry of the Prophet, because that is also God's arena. Asking God to give wisdom to people is highly Biblical and highly beneficial. One man's set of "itching ears" is another man's "led by the spirit". Once again, does something have to be doctrinally perfect before God would lower himself to the point of associating with it? If so, then Jesus had no business becoming a man at all.quote:
Is that time now? And if you're listening, devoid of sound doctrine, to those purporting to be prophets, how will you be seeking the truth or adhering to the simplicity in Christ?
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3
While I'm not calling this the be-all, end-all fulfillment of this verse,
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Matthew 24:26
I do see some elements of truth to be applied.
Psalms 139:7-12
(7) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
(8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
(9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
(10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
(11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
(12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
God is everywhere and is there for you 24/7/365. Before you continue making veiled accusations, are you referring to me? Because if you are, you are making a whale of an assumption. Christ is more than simple... He is the single most simple concept in the human scope, but He is also the most maddeningly complex character in all of history. How do I square this up? He is transcendent.
As for Psalm 139, it is quite true. And this is the same God who took up residence in a man-made temple in 2 Chronicles. How could God take up residence there if (A) He is too big for the heaven of heavens and (B) he is everywhere? We don't know because it is a mystery. How could God reside between the churbim on Mercy Seat... for the same two reasons? We don't know... because it's a mystery. God is everywhere, but where is there a habitation for him on the earth?quote:
This is incorrect. Just as some put anointing oil on houses or microphones
they call for the "blood of Jesus" in an abstract way. Was it abstract to place lamb's blood on the doorposts when the destroyer was in the streets of Egypt? Was it abstract to anoint the right Thumb, Big Toe, and earlobe of Aaron and his sons? We don't call for the blood of Jesus in an abstract way. We are asking for mercy so the country doesn't take a critical blow (for you RPG fans) for its sins. It is anything but abstract. If this is abstract, then asking for forgiveness of personal sins by the blood of Jesus is abstract.quote:
The reality is that salvation is of individual souls. Which I have not argued with... ever...quote:
I have really wondered if anyone chanting "life" and praying for the end of abortion understood what they were asking for. Since not one word of response was given to my post regarding the woman who, though already saved, repented during prayer with some other women of three abortions. Do you think of her as "dirty"? If she repented, she is clean in God's eyes, and thus the same in mine.quote:
Would you welcome unwed pregnant teenagers? Been there aaaaand.... yep... done that.quote:
Would their parents quit the church out of shame? Their shame is their own problem. I wouldn't make them leave, and I don't know anyone else who would either.quote:
Would you forgive a young man who paid for an abortion who genuinely repented? Are you almost done with your straw men? Once again, if they have repented, they are clean by God... and the same by me.quote:
Have you actually thought about these things or have you been sloganeering for politics alone? Before getting condescending, consider that I might actually be concerned about the MORAL issue. I will vote for a pro-life democrat over a pro-choice republican every time... and I can't stand about 90% of the DNC's platform. Please consider your words before spewing them for all to see.quote:
I'm not into Calvinism. But the comments people left about IHOP and on the Bob Jones page were interesting. The OP had asked for info. I liked where they pointed out the over-emphasis on the church as the bride. I liked the comment that said something like "wasn't Bob Jones already discredited at IHOP or whatever it's called now?" So NOW we want to throw it back to the OP... forget about how the focus of the last 17 pages have been a careful interrogation into why I believe IHOP isn't an apostate cult. You posted a referrence link, and I posted criticism of your source. If this is truly about information, check your sources. And for what it's worth, High-Calvinism is a totally different animal than Calvinism... even Calvin would find HighCalvinism funky.quote:
Don't let my "leaven" stand in the way. Maybe IHOP should be in Smallville. I take it from this statement we are done with thoughtful discussion and careful debate... Usually when people use sarcastic semi-witticisms such as this it is because they are otherwise out of things to say.quote:
One of my friends is a minister in North Carolina. He likes to say that Christianity _is_ an "eastern religion", it came out of the Middle East. I think he's wrong in making that comparison as I think you were on the wrong track in the astral projection thread. The last time I visited the Joyner-Bickle following church I attended for so many years, a woman was virtually bawling that she didn't "understand why (He) won't come here--we're all trying so hard". Of course she was not a leader there, but her comment shows a certain way of thinking. Considering that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah... he is pretty correct. Now, it isn't an "eastern religion" in the sense of the far east (such as Taoism, Confusciounism, etc.), but it is based on Judaism. Feel free to think what you like about what I said on another thread, just remember that that was another thread with different circumstances and a different topic. The thing the woman in the church you visited didn't notice is that she answered her own question. "We are TRYING so hard". They are "trying" to bring a revival. If Jesus comes because of our effort, we can take credit for it... If He grants our prayers, all the credit is His, because all we did was ask. Once again, blanket statements are not a responsible use of our faculties.quote:
I think you wouldn't like his comments on abortion. And you made this statement....... why? Basically this is changing the subject of the line of thinking of the context as a way to sidestep the point. In the debate world that is called a Concession of the Point.
Anything else?
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/17/2008 8:39:25 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1584
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Folks, due to the involvement of that young lady in my church and the potential influence on the youth, I am delving deeper into evaluating IHOP's teachings. I encourage anyone who wants to find out more to subscribe to some of the podcasts from IHOP. I think it's important that what is being taught is evaluated and compared to scripture outside of the emotional climate of IHOP, The Call, and OneThing.
I will likely start a series on my blog about this, if offline life doesn't prevent me from doing so.
For just a conversation starter, here are a few excerpts from "Walking in the Light" by Mike Bickle, on the "Best of IHOP-KC and OneThing" podcast.
I believe we're in a time of history where the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth...I don't mean millions, I mean billions of dollars, being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Much more than billions. We're talking about the whole world, and we need to posture ourselves from a biblical point of view to be part of that. And its something that I'm not content that maybe a few of us understand it; it's bigger than this. I want us as a spiritual family to understand what hour we're living in and what is on the Lord's heart related to the end time worship movement and related to supernatural finances.
and another...
The primary conflict just preceeding the second coming of Christ is a conflict between two houses of prayer. It's the Jesus house of prayer, which I won't give you the verses but my favorite is Isaiah chapter 42:10-13...where it talks about the house of prayer being raised up all the parts of the earth....
....and this house of prayer will be raised up in all the ends of the earth, with the prophetic song from heaven being released to it, and this house of prayer will lead to the second coming of Jesus. Jesus is not coming back to earth in a vacuum, He's coming back in response to global concerts of prayer that never end. He's coming back in answer to a worship movement that fills the earth.
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 1/17/2008 10:32:32 AM >
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/17/2008 11:57:52 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, without faith it is impossible to please God. Even better, why try to "please" God when he is already happy? You look through the descriptions of God's character, and you'll find that he is constantly happy.
Fur, it's rather disconcerting to see you quote the writer of Hebrews and then proceed to correct him. I really don't get it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The point is that God desires worship and adoration... to the point that Jesus said "if these keep silent, even the rocks will cry out."
God is not needy. That is hardly the whole of what "God desires" for us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Realistically, what is the harm of praying, worshipping, and interceding for 24 hours a day?
It takes away valuable time we could be spending on internet forums. That's a joke, Fur. The real answer is that we are no more told to set up a building as a twenty-four hour prayer center than we are anything else that we're told to do. How about 1 Timothy 2:11?
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. "The 24 hour house of the woman learning in silence with all subjection" would not be nearly as popular. So it's not based on Scripture but on someone's construing of the meaning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Before you continue making veiled accusations, are you referring to me?
I do not have fights with you with other people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Was it abstract to place lamb's blood on the doorposts when the destroyer was in the streets of Egypt? Was it abstract to anoint the right Thumb, Big Toe, and earlobe of Aaron and his sons? We don't call for the blood of Jesus in an abstract way.
The pledge referring to calling for the blood of Jesus to cover national sin is indeed an abstract usage. The blood of Jesus covers the sin of the individual believer. I see no reason to think that something supernatural will be accomplished by calling for the blood of Jesus to cover national sin. Anointing oil in the New Testament is used on an individual believer
in James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and not on houses and microphones. I have actually seen someone oil a microphone. He called it a trumpet.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
We are asking for mercy so the country doesn't take a critical blow (for you RPG fans) for its sins. It is anything but abstract.
What you are saying is that you believe that you are doing something important-and are concerned about the results that will happen if you don't. Who told you this? Others preach/prophesy blessings and a bright future while still others think it's too late to avert a judgment. I would say that to do something because somebody had a "word" or a "prophesy" is a little abstract.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Before getting condescending,
I've ignored most of these attempts to paint an attitude or emotion onto my posts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
consider that I might actually be concerned about the MORAL issue. I will vote for a pro-life democrat over a pro-choice republican every time... and I can't stand about 90% of the DNC's platform.
I've purposely avoided writing pages on politics.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Please consider your words before spewing them for all to see.
Those were serious questions I asked regarding the thinking of those pledging to stop abortion. It's good to know that you've dealt with some of these issues with real people. So have I. Many haven't.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
So NOW we want to throw it back to the OP... forget about how the focus of the last 17 pages have been a careful interrogation into why I believe IHOP isn't an apostate cult.
Actually you certainly could have discussed this anonymously rather than identyfying yourself as a staffer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
You posted a referrence link, and I posted criticism of your source.
Attack the attacker, right? It would be more interesting if you addressed their evaluations of Mike Bickle and Bob Jones.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I take it from this statement we are done with thoughtful discussion and careful debate... Usually when people use sarcastic semi-witticisms such as this it is because they are otherwise out of things to say.
Not at all. I made the connection with what you put forth about the vital and heroic prayer efforts to let you know how you sounded.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
And you made this statement....... why? Basically this is changing the subject of the line of thinking of the context as a way to sidestep the point. In the debate world that is called a Concession of the Point.
Oh, sorry. I thought I was in the real world. Earlier you referenced RPG's...I'm not playing one. Some logic...everything you say is the way you say it, and everything I say is the way you say it, so you win. This is no contest. However, I may cause just one person in the grip of manipulation to think, to question, and to recognize high-sounding ideas are no substitute for a simple trust in the Saviour.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/17/2008 3:10:46 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, without faith it is impossible to please God. Even better, why try to "please" God when he is already happy? You look through the descriptions of God's character, and you'll find that he is constantly happy.
Fur, it's rather disconcerting to see you quote the writer of Hebrews and then proceed to correct him. I really don't get it.
Amen, as if the Judgments the Prophets spoke on mean that God is constantly pleased by humans on earth! Or is fur just being sarcastic?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The point is that God desires worship and adoration... to the point that Jesus said "if these keep silent, even the rocks will cry out." quote:
God is not needy. That is hardly the whole of what "God desires" for us.
Amen, we are the ones who need the edification of partaking in the worship in Spirit and in Truth as it is written. We need the prayers to be answered as it is written: Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. And "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Prayer, and worship and Judgments are not new ideas to the Church of God; are they?
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/18/2008 12:51:45 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/17/2008 4:18:27 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5282
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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Amen, prophetica!
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/18/2008 2:18:16 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Realistically, what is the harm of praying, worshipping, and interceding for 24 hours a day?
It takes away valuable time we could be spending on internet forums. How about 1 Timothy 2:11?
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. "The 24 hour house of the woman learning in silence with all subjection" would not be nearly as popular. So it's not based on Scripture but on someone's construing of the meaning.
LOL!!!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/18/2008 11:26:10 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, without faith it is impossible to please God. Even better, why try to "please" God when he is already happy? You look through the descriptions of God's character, and you'll find that he is constantly happy.
quote:
Fur, it's rather disconcerting to see you quote the writer of Hebrews and then proceed to correct him. I really don't get it.
But isn't that pretty much a classic example of what Bickle/IHop does with Scripture...they always have a better idea than the Word of God...Even better, I think the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth....being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Even better, 24/7 prayer is absolutely necessary if Christians ever want to see Jesus return. ....and this house of prayer will be raised up in all the ends of the earth, with the prophetic song from heaven Even Better, God requires blood from America because we have shed the blood of so many innocent babies, just as he required blood from nations in the Old Testament mankind will have to sacrifice it's blood to atone for it's sins... etc., etc., etc.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/18/2008 12:47:58 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
But isn't that pretty much a classic example of what Bickle/IHop does with Scripture...they always have a better idea than the Word of God
Yes. If "prayer" means opening the mind in the search for a mystical experience, the word "prayer" appears to make it Biblical when it can be actually dangerous.
The ability to allegorize is not a gift of prophecy.
I wonder how many years of looking for the prophesied "coming revival" and this move of God and that move of God will continue.
Of course if you go there and buy into it and are convinced then that you have the "anna anointing" or are in the "joseph company" then it must seem hurtful when others denounce the concepts. At that point you've taken ownership of the teaching into your beliefs.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/18/2008 3:38:19 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1584
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
But isn't that pretty much a classic example of what Bickle/IHop does with Scripture...they always have a better idea than the Word of God...
There was SO MUCH stuff in that message from Mike Bickle. One could write a book on the issues with just that one message.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/18/2008 4:55:29 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1584
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Why wouldn't a gullible young Christian want to be a part of this? According to Bickle, they're part of the end-times-worship-and-prayer-movement that will be the reason for Christ's return.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 12:00:33 AM
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sadparent
Posts: 3
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline
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I used to be a loving, happy parent. I'm still loving but my name tells you what's changed.
My son, who loves the Lord, went to IHOP. When I told him that I had serious reservations about some of the stuff that IHOP taught, I was cut off. Called ungodly. And, per my son, 'after receiving older and wiser council, I want NO communication for ONE YEAR 'at least''
So, regarding is IHOP a good place? No, it is not. No Christian organization encourages its members to 'cut off' family, or to dishonor their parents.
Yet... I was told be an IHOP staff member that IHOP has a POLICY - NOT to disown family and friends who disagree with them...
Not too many normal, Christian organizations have those kinds of policies in place..
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 12:38:22 AM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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stateofgrace quotes Bickle:
"I believe we're in a time of history where the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth...I don't mean millions, I mean billions of dollars, being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Much more than billions. We're talking about the whole world, and we need to posture ourselves from a biblical point of view to be part of that. And its something that I'm not content that maybe a few of us understand it; it's bigger than this. I want us as a spiritual family to understand what hour we're living in and what is on the Lord's heart related to the end time worship movement and related to supernatural finances."
Bickle echoes 'Apostle' C. Peter Wagner [head of the New Apostolic Reformation] quite nicely there. Not a surprise. The 'Transfer of wealth' teaching falls under Dominionism [Kingdom Theology, Latter Rain] where the 'Church' allegedly takes over and brings about the Kingdom of God on earth, and power, wealth, government, etc. is transferred to them.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 1:03:34 AM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadparent
I used to be a loving, happy parent. I'm still loving but my name tells you what's changed.
My son, who loves the Lord, went to IHOP. When I told him that I had serious reservations about some of the stuff that IHOP taught, I was cut off. Called ungodly. And, per my son, 'after receiving older and wiser council, I want NO communication for ONE YEAR 'at least''
So, regarding is IHOP a good place? No, it is not. No Christian organization encourages its members to 'cut off' family, or to dishonor their parents.
Yet... I was told be an IHOP staff member that IHOP has a POLICY - NOT to disown family and friends who disagree with them...
Not too many normal, Christian organizations have those kinds of policies in place..
Something is up then because Adam, here on this forum, is on staff at IHOP, and he has said several times that no such policy of "cut off" from family exists. Infact, if I am not mistaken, he has said that they greatly DISCOURAGE this idea. So either your son is not telling the truth to you, or there is more to this story than we are being told.
My gosh...I am defending IHOP? Wow...lol...someone check to see if the sky is falling!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:29:30 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1552
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
stateofgrace quotes Bickle:
"I believe we're in a time of history where the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth...I don't mean millions, I mean billions of dollars, being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Much more than billions. We're talking about the whole world, and we need to posture ourselves from a biblical point of view to be part of that. And its something that I'm not content that maybe a few of us understand it; it's bigger than this. I want us as a spiritual family to understand what hour we're living in and what is on the Lord's heart related to the end time worship movement and related to supernatural finances."
Bickle echoes 'Apostle' C. Peter Wagner [head of the New Apostolic Reformation] quite nicely there. Not a surprise. The 'Transfer of wealth' teaching falls under Dominionism [Kingdom Theology, Latter Rain] where the 'Church' allegedly takes over and brings about the Kingdom of God on earth, and power, wealth, government, etc. is transferred to them.
Awesome find lw9!
That is word for word from the Latter Rain/Kingdom Now handbook! Like to see the "Bickle does not promote Latter Rain/Kingdom Now theology" crowd spin that one!
More proof that a Dominionist leopard can't change his spots. That despite what he may claim on his website!
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:33:12 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1552
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Something is up then because Adam, here on this forum, is on staff at IHOP, and he has said several times that no such policy of "cut off" from family exists. Infact, if I am not mistaken, he has said that they greatly DISCOURAGE this idea. So either your son is not telling the truth to you, or there is more to this story than we are being told.
My gosh...I am defending IHOP? Wow...lol...someone check to see if the sky is falling!
I have had friends get caught up in the same Kingdom Now/Latter Rain/Dominionist movement that IHOP is part of, and what happened to sadparent is very similar to what these folks were being brainwashed with.
To Adam. Since you are on staff with IHOP, it would be great is you could invite Mr Bickle to join us on this thread.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:36:08 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1552
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Why wouldn't a gullible young Christian want to be a part of this? According to Bickle, they're part of the end-times-worship-and-prayer-movement that will be the reason for Christ's return.
"Gullible" is the key word there. If any young Christian knew the Word, and used discernment, they would realize that they would be joining a heretical movement that has been denounced by numerous groups as rehashed Latter Rain/Kingdom Now/Manifest Sons of God theology.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 10:48:54 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Something is up then because Adam, here on this forum, is on staff at IHOP, and he has said several times that no such policy of "cut off" from family exists. Infact, if I am not mistaken, he has said that they greatly DISCOURAGE this idea. So either your son is not telling the truth to you, or there is more to this story than we are being told.
Here is an earlier post of mine that quotes and ex-IHop member who speaks of parental alienation, Stephanos. I know you don't believe I-Hop has some of the characteristics of a cult, but now we have two testimonies that say they do. If IHop is practicing these things, then they certainly aren't going to scream it from the roof tops, are they? That's how cults thrive....secrecy. Perhaps Adam's been taken in and is no longer able to recognize what is happening there or is not in a high enough position to be privy to these goings-on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Here is an interesting first-hand account from an ex-IHOP member which confirms much of what has been said in opposition to Bickle/IHOP in this thread and more:
"I'd been attending their school, FSM (FORERUNNER SCHOOL OF MINISTRY) for almost two years, taking everything in, journaling everything, and TESTING everything against scripture. There are so many false doctrines taught there, its not even funny. For example:
1. They uphold teachings of Mystics and false prophets.
2. They teach/practice DELIVERANCE for/on CHRISTIANS frequently (casting out demons).
3. I've seen "CHRISTIANS" manifest demons more times than i can count.
4. I've seen/they teach Odd, unbiblical manifestations that they claim are from the "Holy Spirit."
5. They twist scriptures and take them out of context to fit their wacked-out doctrines and have excuses for everything. The most dangerous being, "The Holy Spirit loves to offend the mind, that's how you know its from God!"
6. Generational curses being the cause of habitual sin and sickness in Born-again Christians (they blame demons for literally everything, even talk to them!)
7. Completely unbiblical veiw/practice of "prophesy" which works much more like spiritist, psychic, medium stuff and not actual prophesy. What's worse is Mike Bickle teaches that its OKAY to falsly prophesy.
But this isn't even why I say it is a cult! (YEAH, IT ACTUALLY GETS WORSE!!!)
As I previously stated, I was a student at FSM, until a series of events left me in a small office with 3 people. At this point I was aware of false prophesies, doctrines, and teachings. I began to warn people, adamently, to "TEST EVERYTHING! Don't believe anything unless u see it, IN CONTEXT, in the Bible. Just because something is real, doesn't mean its from God..." So, leadership obviously got word that I'd been doing this and I was brought into an office.
In this office, they gave me a laundry list of things wrong with me (mostly from my past), and said that I have a problem with authority. Then they began to use smooth words to try and twist the situation and manipulate me by saying, "It's not your fault, you just need help. But we are for you! We love you! And we are going to help you." This is when they proceeded to tell me that I needed healing and deliverance from the authority issues which stem from having a bad relationship with my dad (which isnt even true). So, in order to recieve this "healing and deliverance" they were going to SEND ME AWAY to Toronto, where the Toronto blessing was. They smoothly threatened me not to tell my parents (without them being there) and to recieve this news with "a humble heart" so as not to "speak evil of their authority" to anyone. If this isn't CULT action, then I sure as heck dunno what is!
Mind you, I had just bought a house so that I could help ihop people in need. I had been mentoring a few of my roomies who were brand new christians and came outta bad living situiations. So THEN, after ALL OF THAT nonsense, they call my roommates into their office, completely slander me, tell them to wait until I am gone, move out of my house, and then send me an email to let me know they've left. They commanded that their meeting be completely confidential from everyone."
Link
All it seems this guy was doing was encouraging the other IHop students to test everything and be sure in is in alignment with the Word...why was IHop so threatened by that? Our Pastor tells us to do that with his teaching all the time.
ETA: sentence I left out.
< Message edited by Kat_D -- 1/23/2008 11:08:43 AM >
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 10:59:33 AM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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Hmm...believe Adam, who actually works AT and WITH IHOP, or people who feel hurt by IHOP and may be out to slander it....hmm that is a choice to figure out.
Listen, those of you who have been apart of this thread for a while, know that few have stronger doctorinal problems with what is taught at IHOP. That being said, I also will stand strong against any false, slanderous, malicious, hateful attacks against IHOP. Let us not forget that I personally know and am friends with 2 people who are active members, and have a few more that would attend regularly if they lived in the Kansas City area. While I know that their theology is off on several things, I also KNOW that they are Children of God. And I will NOT have anyone even suggesting otherwise. As I said, for me as a Baptist, IHOP is no different to me then say the Lutheran Church.
The facts are that IHOP DOES teach the true Christ Jesus, they DO teach the core fundementals as every other orthodox Christian deonmination does. It is on the SECONDARY issues that they, as I believe, have problems. And that does NOT warrant the slander and malice that is thrown towards them. Or do you attack other orthodox denominations like you attack IHOP? For if that is also the case, it would be you who are wrong with God, attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ for no reason
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 11:53:10 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Hmm...believe Adam, who actually works AT and WITH IHOP, or people who feel hurt by IHOP and may be out to slander it....hmm that is a choice to figure out.
Do you expect people who have been "hurt by IHOP" or any other ministry to just be silent? Why not "believe" that both are telling the truth as they know it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Listen, those of you who have been apart of this thread for a while, know that few have stronger doctorinal problems with what is taught at IHOP. That being said, I also will stand strong against any false, slanderous, malicious, hateful attacks against IHOP. Let us not forget that I personally know and am friends with 2 people who are active members, and have a few more that would attend regularly if they lived in the Kansas City area. While I know that their theology is off on several things, I also KNOW that they are Children of God. And I will NOT have anyone even suggesting otherwise. As I said, for me as a Baptist, IHOP is no different to me then say the Lutheran Church.
Tripping to Heaven, visits from angels, "prophetic" direction, and quotes that contradict Scripture - this doesn't separate IHOP from other churches in your mind?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
The facts are that IHOP DOES teach the true Christ Jesus, they DO teach the core fundementals as every other orthodox Christian deonmination does. It is on the SECONDARY issues that they, as I believe, have problems. And that does NOT warrant the slander and malice that is thrown towards them. Or do you attack other orthodox denominations like you attack IHOP? For if that is also the case, it would be you who are wrong with God, attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ for no reason
Message board discussions are over pretty fast if everyone has the same point of view. I have and do talk with ministers and others the same way I would discuss here and there is no problem with that. As far as core fundamentals, it's like a friend of mine heard in the Bahamas, "Mahn, evrybohdy lohves Jezus!" Yeah, but then what?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 12:23:20 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1552
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
The facts are that IHOP DOES teach the true Christ Jesus, they DO teach the core fundementals as every other orthodox Christian deonmination does. It is on the SECONDARY issues that they, as I believe, have problems. And that does NOT warrant the slander and malice that is thrown towards them. Or do you attack other orthodox denominations like you attack IHOP? For if that is also the case, it would be you who are wrong with God, attacking your brothers and sisters in Christ for no reason
- Latter Rain theology is NOT orthodox Christianity (It was deemed heresy by the Assemblies of God in the 1940's).
- Kingdom Now theology is NOT orthodox Christianity
- Dominionist Theology is NOT orthodox Christianity
These movements are supported by Mike Bickle as evidenced in this quote:
"I believe we're in a time of history where the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth...I don't mean millions, I mean billions of dollars, being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Much more than billions. We're talking about the whole world, and we need to posture ourselves from a biblical point of view to be part of that. And its something that I'm not content that maybe a few of us understand it; it's bigger than this. I want us as a spiritual family to understand what hour we're living in and what is on the Lord's heart related to the end time worship movement and related to supernatural finances."
Those abberant theologies do not teach the true Jesus Christ. I respectfully suggest you do a little more research on what they do teach.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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