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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 8:45:51 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Stephanos:
quote:
Is it wrong for IHOP to pay them so they can eat, live, ect? I should hope not.
What does that have to do with the 'Transfer of wealth of the world into our hands' teaching?
quote:
I personally think that the Joseph analogy is a good one. For truly God DID use Joseph to set aside food and supplies for the upcoming famine that ravaged the Holy Land.
How exactly does that support God transferring the wealth of the world into the hands of an end times prayer movement? I can find no valid support in the scriptures for such an idea.
quote:
Need I remind you all that IHOP is NOT WOF or Prosperity Gospel?
Do you understand that WOF is simply another offshoot of Dominionism? Which is worse... a group that teaches God wants you to be rich, or a group that teaches God wants them to be rich and exalts themselves as an end times prayer movement who will usher in the Second Coming? I certainly can't decide.
quote:
Finally, even if IHOP's eschatology is wrong in this instance, that God will send them finances, how is this a primary theological issue. How does this ruin the gospel any more than things like pedobaptism, transubstantiation, ect?
We're back to Dominionism, which is at the heart of the 'transfer of wealth' teaching. It's a dangerous theology, and I strongly suggest you study up on it. I can't force you to do some research and learn about what it really entails. You either want to dig deeper, or you don't.
quote:
So why all the hate? And YES it IS hate!
Hatred of false teaching? Absolutely. Hatred of the people. No. Does pointing out blatant error now equal hatred for people in your eyes?? If so, you've certainly come a long way since page 1 of this thread.
I guess you might have to help me here because in looking into Dominionism, I found NO traces of links to WOF or "transfer of wealth" theologies. From what I have seen Dominionism is the POLITICAL idea that governments should be governed by the laws of God and the Bible. Strictly speaking, from what I have seen, dominionism is a new form of theocracy. But I see nothing about WOF, or "transfer of wealth".
Furthermore, most traces of Dominionism looks like it is postmillinial in nature, in that by creating a Christian government, we will eventually pave the way for Christ to return when the whole world is Christian. I could tell you that this is something that IHOP, as pre-millenial, post-tribunal, would not agree with. For I too am pre-mil, post-trib just as IHOP is. If this is what you get out of IHOP's teachings, then you dont understand eschatology at all. For there is a BIG difference between the postmillenial idea of creating a Christian government, and the pre-millenial idea of teaching the church to prepare for the upcoming tribulation (that is to say pre-mil post-trib as many pre-mil believers are pre-trib and dont believe that the Church will be around for the tribulation).
What IHOP teaches in terms of eschatology, is that believers now, today, must prepare themselves for the tribulation, the events that will occur then, and also to try to reach the lost, to warn them of the upcoming tribulation, in hopes they see the light before it is too late. In this manner I greatly agree with what they teach. If not in methods, but in over all intentions. This is NOT Dominionism in any way, shape or form. Again, if you think it is, then you REALLY need to study your eschatology a little more. For again, there is a FAST difference between trying to warn people of the coming tribulation, which must happen before the Second Coming, and creating a Christian government which will lead to the Second Coming.
So, we have at IHOP a group of people trying to train, and warn others about the coming tribulation. What is wrong with that? And if this is their stated goal, what is wrong with asking for, and praying for God to send them money so they can fulfill this mission?
As for claims on "who is getting the money" do you guys realize how big of a ministry IHOP has? It is not one small building in Kansas City. IHOP is as big as many other Christian non-for-profit organizations. Yet I dont see anyone claiming THOSE ministries, when they ask for donations, are doing so for the wrong reasons. Hypocrisy anyone?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:08:03 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Stephanos:
quote:
I guess you might have to help me here because in looking into Dominionism, I found NO traces of links to WOF or "transfer of wealth" theologies. From what I have seen Dominionism is the POLITICAL idea that governments should be governed by the laws of God and the Bible. Strictly speaking, from what I have seen, dominionism is a new form of theocracy. But I see nothing about WOF, or "transfer of wealth".
Okay... let me try to organize the info as logically as I can because it's a very big subject. The basic beliefs of Dominionism [aka Kingdom Theology, Latter Rain] are as follows:
1. Dominion
- The Kingdom was lost at the fall of Adam and Eve. Man lost dominion over the earth and God lost control. God has been looking for a ‘covenant people’ who will take dominion back from Satan and restore the earth to Him.
2. Restoration
- Christ cannot return until the Church perfects itself & makes itself righteous on earth.
- Once man regains dominion and overcomes through their own righteous efforts, God will establish the Church's position beside the Lord.
3. Reconstruction
- The Church will put down all rebellion and establish righteousness on earth.
- Government, finances, art, science, education, etc. to be put under Biblical law and work towards a Biblical theocratic republic [Government guided by ‘divine individuals’].
- Wealth: the Church must be prosperous and take control of all the material wealth of the earth.
4. Divine authority
- To accomplish Restoration and Reconstruction, divinely appointed leaders [apostles and prophets] claim all authority to take over the Church. Members must submit to them or face the consequences.
5. Great Revival
- Prior to Christ’s return there will be a golden age of global spiritual revival – a Christianized earth brought about by the actions of man [allegedly 'the Church'].
6. Men become divine/gods/christs
While this concept isn't always taught outright, it's implied when the logic is followed to it's end:
- Since all authority has been given to Christ and believers are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit that indwelt Christ, they also have all authority in heaven and on earth. Man is put in the place of Christ in bringing about the Kingdom, and through their actions they become righteous and perfected. Christ is lowered, man is elevated.
7. Signs & Wonders
False mystical experiences are taught as being direct communications from God. 'Supernatural help’ can include:
- New revelations: Considered God’s new word or new movements of God, new ‘revelations’ are accepted even when proven contradictory to the Bible.
- ‘Gifts’ of the Holy Spirit: Can include unbiblical manifestations such as holy laughter, drunk in the spirit, slain in the spirit, animal manifestations, etc. Some groups look for a progression of power to eventually culminate in immortalization of believers & raising of the dead.
- Visions, dreams, apparitions
- Necromancy: Communication with the dead to guide the Church. Occurs especially through the apostles & prophets.
Think of Dominionism as an umbrella. Under the umbrella falls various offshoot movements that have spun out of Dominionism. Some of the offshoots would be Word of Faith and the New Apostolic Reformation [NAR}. Each movement has some beliefs that are specific and unique to themselves, yet they in general still adhere to at least some of the basic concepts of Dominionism. God lost... they need to restore. It's how they go about 'restoring' God's Kingdom on earth that makes each group different.
The 'Transfer of Wealth' teaching comes mostly out of the NAR, so along with Dominionism, that's the group I would study if you're interested. Most, if not all, of the people on the Elijah List are NAR, and strangely enough Bickle can be found there as well. I don't think it's mere coincidence that he's teaching the transfer of wealth. I will try to post some helpful links as soon as I can... might be tomorrow, though.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 1/23/2008 9:20:54 PM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:16:30 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Great lw9, but you fail to realize that IHOP...DOES NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THAT FILTH! My goodness are you this dense.
Let me say it again.
IHOP believes in a PRE-MILLENIAL, POST-TRIBUNAL view of Eschatology. This view of eschatology does NOT teach that there will be a "golden age" of the church. It does NOT teach that the church will bring about the Second Coming. It does NOT teach that the Church will overcome all evil on the earth.
IT TEACHES NO SUCH THING!
So unless you say that IHOP is lying when it says it is pre-mil, post-trib. I dont give a hoot about Dominonism or Latter Rain, or any of that other filth. It has NOTHING to do with IHOP. PERIOD.
As for finances, here is something from IHOP
So unless you think they are lying when they say this, you better start watching your tongues when you suggest that Bickle and others are just using IHOP to get rich.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:29:29 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Stephanos:
The proof is in Bickle's own words on the videos. I've heard it for myself, and it's already been pointed out to you. There's nothing more I can do.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:44:46 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Greetings Stephanos! The financial statement sounds nothing like some are saying here. I would like to apologize for getting carried away by rumors instead of examining things for myself.
I would love to be part of a group that dedicates itself to prayer and worship for The Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Great lw9, but you fail to realize that IHOP...DOES NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THAT FILTH! My goodness are you this dense.
Let me say it again.
IHOP believes in a PRE-MILLENIAL, POST-TRIBUNAL view of Eschatology. This view of eschatology does NOT teach that there will be a "golden age" of the church. It does NOT teach that the church will bring about the Second Coming. It does NOT teach that the Church will overcome all evil on the earth.
IT TEACHES NO SUCH THING!
So unless you say that IHOP is lying when it says it is pre-mil, post-trib. I dont give a hoot about Dominonism or Latter Rain, or any of that other filth. It has NOTHING to do with IHOP. PERIOD.
As for finances, here is something from IHOP
So unless you think they are lying when they say this, you better start watching your tongues when you suggest that Bickle and others are just using IHOP to get rich.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:45:14 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Stephanos:
The proof is in Bickle's own words on the videos. I've heard it for myself, and it's already been pointed out to you. There's nothing more I can do.
His words today? Since the formation of IHOP? I find that hard to believe.
Now if you are using his words from 20 years ago, that is just pathetic. Can not someone change their views on things? I use to believe in evolution, before I saw it was wrong. I use to believe in tongues as practiced by modern pentacostals, before I saw it was wrong. I use to believe in women pastors, before I saw I was wrong. Would you, now, today, take my words from several years ago when I believed in these things, and try to argue that I still do? You would be a fool if you did.
This is what IHOP teaches NOW TODAY THIS PRESENT MOMENT!
Lets review
Manifest God Theology...
WE DENY that we will experience the fullness of our inheritance as sons of God before Jesus returns.
Latter Rain....
WE DENY the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.
Dominion Theology
WE DENY the Church will take over all the governments of the Earth before the return of Christ.
Joel's Army
WE DENY Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time church.
The use of prophecy
WE DENY subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.
------
So...Are you saying, that what Mike Bickle may have believed in the past, forever taints him in your eyes, and nothing he says can ever convince you that he no longer believes those things? If that is the case, I guess you also condemn former alcoholics when they give their testamonies about their former life in sin. Or even better. What about the people you prop up as commming out of IHOP. They ONCE believed those things but changed. Why do you believe their change, and not any changes that Mike Bickle might have made to his theology?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 9:54:48 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings Stephanos! The financial statement sounds nothing like some are saying here. I would like to apologize for getting carried away by rumors instead of examining things for myself.
I would love to be part of a group that dedicates itself to prayer and worship for The Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Great lw9, but you fail to realize that IHOP...DOES NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THAT FILTH! My goodness are you this dense.
Let me say it again.
IHOP believes in a PRE-MILLENIAL, POST-TRIBUNAL view of Eschatology. This view of eschatology does NOT teach that there will be a "golden age" of the church. It does NOT teach that the church will bring about the Second Coming. It does NOT teach that the Church will overcome all evil on the earth.
IT TEACHES NO SUCH THING!
So unless you say that IHOP is lying when it says it is pre-mil, post-trib. I dont give a hoot about Dominonism or Latter Rain, or any of that other filth. It has NOTHING to do with IHOP. PERIOD.
As for finances, here is something from IHOP
So unless you think they are lying when they say this, you better start watching your tongues when you suggest that Bickle and others are just using IHOP to get rich.
no problems proph....
Just a note on these finances. See that 1700 a day for building operations (you know, lights, heat, water) comes out to 620500 a year. Add to that other expences, such as their own record and publishing groups, what they give to other IHOP churches across the globe, plus their dedication to giving to the poor. Yea..that costs A LOT! Most average sized churches budgets only go to about 2 million. And that is with full time, fully paid pastorial staffs. So yea, IHOP spends ALOT of money, and I DO believe them when they say they use 100% of it for IHOP reasons (not selfish ones like some have slanderously accused IHOP of doing).
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/23/2008 11:08:20 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Stephanos:
quote:
lw9: The proof is in Bickle's own words on the videos. I've heard it for myself, and it's already been pointed out to you. There's nothing more I can do
quote:
stephanos: His words today? Since the formation of IHOP? I find that hard to believe.
Now if you are using his words from 20 years ago, that is just pathetic.
Ummm... are ya joking?
You've been here for the last 3 pages. What have people been pointing out to you but his statements from IHOP Onething - which obviously are recent. See posts #481, 492, 500, 502, 503, 505, 506, 508, 510, 512, 515, 519. I have no idea where you're suddenly coming up with the idea that we're talking about his words from 20 years ago. 
So yes, obviously... his words TODAY.
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:09:31 AM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
So I suppose you reject and ignore what IHOP says HERE...
That's a great page! Thank you, Stephanos for sharing it. I believe they are true followers of Jesus, too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Bickle has made his own denial of Dominionism statements null and void because the 'Transfer of wealth' teaching IS Dominionism.
quote:
the 'transfer of wealth' teaching is from a very specific source, which is Dominionism, and not the Bible.
It's not from the bible? Really? I believe you are mistaken on that thought. God transfered the wealth of the Egyptians to the Israelites when they left Egypt because He wanted them provided for. I believe He will do the same in these end days to provide for His work to get done. It's already started. I have a christian friend who left a company that was run by very godless people and started his own. Without ever telling any of the previous customers attached to his old work place that he was starting it, eventually God, one way or another, got the word out and all the customers of the old business left and turned to my friend's new business. He's very wealthy now because of it. What did God do? He transfered the wealth that was coming into the hands of that very ungodly business owner and plopped into the hands of a godly man who uses the wealth righteously. That just happened in the last 5 years. Those kinds of stories are happening everywhere more and more.
God will provide for His work to be done and is raising up many wealthy Josephs in the land to do it. That's not Dominionism, unless it was Dominionism that the Israelites believed in when they left Egypt. God does, has done, and will do again whenever He pleases a transfering of wealth into the hands of the godly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wintery
....however, the issue is establishing prayer houses with 24/7 prayer actually doing something vital which we must if we "ever want to see Jesus return". I do not agree that we must do anything to facilitate the return of Christ.
You can believe that if you wish, but there are many like myself who believe that Christ said He's returning for a spotless bride. Are we spotless yet? I don't think so. Will prayer and fasting help us? I think so. Is it vital for Christ's return? Definately.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
The "transfer of wealth" that Mike Bickle was referring to was basically into IHOP, not to the poor of the world
No it wasn't. It was to ALL houses of 24/7 prayer and worship worldwide.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
and this house of prayer will be raised up in all the ends of the earth,
LOL...he's speaking about the entire movement of prayer, worship, and fasting that is happening around the globe, not about just IHOP. And he's correct.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:14:50 AM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
So, yes, I expect to see scripture used in context when one is claiming that God wants to transfer the wealth of the WHOLE WORLD into a prayer movement as part of the end times plan and they point to the Bible to support it.
I so have to laugh at you guys!  You are so consistent in your inconsistencies and contradictions. You demand that people use scripture to back up what they believe and then, when they do, you negate the scripture and say, "oh, you can't use that scripture for this." You do the same thing over and over throughout these threads. Whether it be interpreting dreams or whatever.
God really does speak through scripture to people today, you know. And He really does say things like, "I will transfer the wealth of these nations into your hand just as I transfered the wealth of Egypt into the hands of my children, Israel." God does use scripture to guide us to take stands of faith and have expectancy.
With you guys there's no point in discussing anything. You don't like it when scripture is used and you don't like it when scripture isn't used. You will only use scripture when it supports your conclusions to things. That's so strange to me.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:35:17 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
Status: offline
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Greetings SD456! For it is written: it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today. And The LORD sends poverty and wealth.
Although the following Scriptures may speak of the new earth or paradise:
Isaiah 10:14
As one reaches into a nest, so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations; as men gather abandoned eggs, so I gathered all the countries; not one flapped a wing, or opened its mouth to chirp.' "
Isaiah 60:5
Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy; the wealth on the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come.
Isaiah 60:11
Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations— their kings led in triumphal procession.
Isaiah 61:6
And you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God. You will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast.
Isaiah 66:12
For this is what the LORD says: "I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees.
For Jesus said: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
And yet God also says: to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
We know that God is Good and what He desires for us is better than what we have ever even dreamed of.
In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
These things are true wealth. Wealth that lasts.
What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
So, yes, I expect to see scripture used in context when one is claiming that God wants to transfer the wealth of the WHOLE WORLD into a prayer movement as part of the end times plan and they point to the Bible to support it.
I so have to laugh at you guys! You are so consistent in your inconsistencies and contradictions. You demand that people use scripture to back up what they believe and then, when they do, you negate the scripture and say, "oh, you can't use that scripture for this." You do the same thing over and over throughout these threads. Whether it be interpreting dreams or whatever.
God really does speak through scripture to people today, you know. And He really does say things like, "I will transfer the wealth of these nations into your hand just as I transfered the wealth of Egypt into the hands of my children, Israel." God does use scripture to guide us to take stands of faith and have expectancy.
With you guys there's no point in discussing anything. You don't like it when scripture is used and you don't like it when scripture isn't used. You will only use scripture when it supports your conclusions to things. That's so strange to me.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/24/2008 2:56:45 AM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 6:37:11 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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Okay, I got some time and decided to catch up a little bit. Pardon the legnth...
quote:
Fur, it's rather disconcerting to see you quote the writer of Hebrews and then proceed to correct him. I really don't get it. ++I'm not "correcting" the writer of Hebrews. Rather, I used to words of the writer of Hebrews to argue with a point you made, and then changed the subject of the argument. Hence, without faith it is impossible to please God... But once you are a Christian, why strive to please Him if He is already the happiest being in the universe?quote:
God is not needy. That is hardly the whole of what "God desires" for us. ++who said anything about Him being needy? The difference between "needing" and "Desiring" is that you can live without one, but you can't live without the other. God doesn't need us or anything we do... but He wants us.
quote:
The real answer is that we are no more told to set up a building as a twenty-four hour prayer center than we are anything else that we're told to do. How about 1 Timothy 2:11?
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. "The 24 hour house of the woman learning in silence with all subjection" would not be nearly as popular. So it's not based on Scripture but on someone's construing of the meaning. ++Before this rockets off into the "Women in Ministry" debate, let me ask why you feel this is a valid argument? The verse is talking about being in church, and we are talking about praying 24/7. Since prayer is the single most important link between the human spirit and God, doesn't it make sense to spend a lot of time doing it?quote:
I do not have fights with you with other people. ++then you will have no problem if I ask why you made the referrence to "being devoid of sound doctrine" in post 476? Unless you have a reason to believe that someone here or the subject of a debate is devoid of sound doctrine, I will politely ask you to recant this accusation.quote:
The pledge referring to calling for the blood of Jesus to cover national sin is indeed an abstract usage. The blood of Jesus covers the sin of the individual believer. I see no reason to think that something supernatural will be accomplished by calling for the blood of Jesus to cover national sin. Anointing oil in the New Testament is used on an individual believer
in James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and not on houses and microphones. I have actually seen someone oil a microphone. He called it a trumpet. ++you're free to think what you like. There is no forgiveness of sins outside of the Blood of Christ, so either we plead His blood over our corporate sins, or we are still in them.
As a sound tech, I'm not thrilled by the idea of putting anointing oil on microphones either simply because it would be bad for the equipment. As for the spiritual reality, it's not like the microphone is going to be possessed by a demon because anointing oil was put on it. So really, there isn't anything worth getting worked up over except the possible damage to the electronic equipment.quote:
What you are saying is that you believe that you are doing something important-and are concerned about the results that will happen if you don't. Who told you this? Others preach/prophesy blessings and a bright future while still others think it's too late to avert a judgment. I would say that to do something because somebody had a "word" or a "prophesy" is a little abstract. It would be a pretty pitiful discussion and belief if I didn't believe it was important, wouldn't it? The Bible told me it's important. Take a look at the examples I posted earlier. There is a plethora of information on God judging nations because of their sins (Amos takes three chapters to declare judgements on National sins). So either abortion is a sin that needs to be repented of, or we are due for judgement. The main problem I see is that if the Jews had used the same kind of "logic" with Jeremiah, they still would have been judged for their apathy (Revelation 3 talks about the same happening to one of the 7 churches).quote:
I've ignored most of these attempts to paint an attitude or emotion onto my posts. ++I didn't paint anything... your words, sir.... "Have you actually thought about these things or have you been sloganeering for politics alone?" note: have you actually thought about these things or... My paint was gladly left in the can.quote:
I've purposely avoided writing pages on politics. Congratulations... Mentioning the "sloaganeering" was a nice "apolitical" touch, wasn't it?quote:
Actually you certainly could have discussed this anonymously rather than identyfying yourself as a staffer. ++which is dodging the issue I raised. Which is fine, because I'm the one who seems to be on trial. I mentioned myself as a staffer because (A) it means I have personal experience with the group in question and (B) it means that I am a resource of somewhat more direct information. Why on God's green earth would I hide that I am a staffer? Because I don't like confrontation? Because I should be feeling guilt and condemnation for being a part of IHOP-KC? There is no sensible reason for me to post a generic support post because I know that I would get asked why I was "blindly supporting such an anti-biblical organization". Eventually it was going to come out that I am Staff, so I put it up front.quote:
Attack the attacker, right? It would be more interesting if you addressed their evaluations of Mike Bickle and Bob Jones. ++Amazing how the source doesn't matter when the content agrees with you, eh? How is my noting of skunky doctrine in your source any different than you criticizing IHOP-KC because of Mike's teaching on prophecy?quote:
Not at all. I made the connection with what you put forth about the vital and heroic prayer efforts to let you know how you sounded So this is now personal... which means we are officially done debating and into a character study. I'll keep my megalomania to myself, thank you very much. quote:
Oh, sorry. I thought I was in the real world. Earlier you referenced RPG's...I'm not playing one. Some logic...everything you say is the way you say it, and everything I say is the way you say it, so you win. This is no contest. However, I may cause just one person in the grip of manipulation to think, to question, and to recognize high-sounding ideas are no substitute for a simple trust in the Saviour. First off, the RPG comment was an attempt at humor for those of us who do play RPG's from time to time. Secondly, I am not trying to change your words around. That is why I make sure to quote your words from your post and not just spout an opinion and hope you get it. Thirdly, you once again have brought up the ideas of "manipulation... high-sounding ideas". Everyone here is here by choice. Not by trick, not by coercion, but because we believe this is right. But what is wrong with high-sounding ideas? God has vested in us the authority to shape the future through intercession. If you don't like high-sounding ideas, I suggest you avoid reading about the New Jerusalem in the Old Testament... there's a lot in there about the saints ruling and reigning with Christ. Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't get much higher than that.quote:
Amen, as if the Judgments the Prophets spoke on mean that God is constantly pleased by humans on earth! Or is fur just being sarcastic? ++Prophetica, I didn't say God is always pleased with humans. I said God is always happy. That's the cool part of His transcendence. His emotions are not reactionary like ours because He knows what's going down before it happens. God delights in mercy, and God loves justice. So actually, God is pleased with either outcome. That is a gross over-simplification, but because we are using language it is of necessity.
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But isn't that pretty much a classic example of what Bickle/IHop does with Scripture...they always have a better idea than the Word of God... ++actually, that is a misrepresentation of what we do. It's using the Bible and then making the logical inference. For exapmle, that verse that states that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous. The inference being that there will be a great transference of wealth to the hands of the righteous. Make sense?quote:
Bickle echoes 'Apostle' C. Peter Wagner [head of the New Apostolic Reformation] quite nicely there. Not a surprise. The 'Transfer of wealth' teaching falls under Dominionism [Kingdom Theology, Latter Rain] where the 'Church' allegedly takes over and brings about the Kingdom of God on earth, and power, wealth, government, etc. is transferred to them. actualy not. Dominionism talks about the church taking over the world. The IHOP teaching is that God will raise up and stregnthen the church in the midst of the Antichrist raising up his kingdom and taking over the earth. The culmination of this is the return of Christ when Christ and the Church will rule the earth. That is thoroughly Biblical doctrine.quote:
My gosh...I am defending IHOP? Wow...lol...someone check to see if the sky is falling! well... the sky is still up. But after three near-identical posts, it gets a little old, don't it? I'm trying so hard to keep my feist to myself.quote:
To Adam. Since you are on staff with IHOP, it would be great is you could invite Mr Bickle to join us on this thread. Soxfan, you're not the first to suggest it, but Mike is extremely busy. Besides with 22 pages of accusations and arguments to wade through, I don't see what it would accomplish. Also on that note, I can guarantee that most of you would be highly bored if you had a discussion with Mike because he wouldn't get defensive and dogmatic.quote:
"Gullible" is the key word there. If any young Christian knew the Word, and used discernment, they would realize that they would be joining a heretical movement that has been denounced by numerous groups as rehashed Latter Rain/Kingdom Now/Manifest Sons of God theology. If I am gullible, I don't want to be "wise". Thank you for the slap, and I forgive you. As for the "heretical" call... I will quote one of the faculty for the Bible School... "doctrine falls into four catagories: Truth, error, deception, heresy. Truth means you got it right, error is what we all have, deception is extremely risky and needs to be repented of, Heresy means you go to hell for it." So, feel free to make this personal, should you wish, but I'm not going there.quote:
Here is an earlier post of mine that quotes and ex-IHop member who speaks of parental alienation, Stephanos. I know you don't believe I-Hop has some of the characteristics of a cult, but now we have two testimonies that say they do. If IHop is practicing these things, then they certainly aren't going to scream it from the roof tops, are they? That's how cults thrive....secrecy. Perhaps Adam's been taken in and is no longer able to recognize what is happening there or is not in a high enough position to be privy to these goings-on. ++And here we see the true premise in the objection. "He must be taken in... He must be decieved... He must be closed to truth!" Please. Once again, a personal attack is a surrender of the point. IHOP is not a secret society. Our doctrines, meetings, and prayer rooms are open to any and all to come visit. If you don't believe me, you can get a referral off the IHOP-KC website to local hotels so that you can come visit the prayer room. Show me a cult that ever tried to make it easier for people to come visit them. What I find really funny is that you are touting two testimonies even though I can produce ten blogs of people who love IHOP-KC, some staff and some not.quote:
Do you expect people who have been "hurt by IHOP" or any other ministry to just be silent? Why not "believe" that both are telling the truth as they know it? ++ Let me put it this way... I have been hurt in past churches (I have since recieved prayer and forgiven the people involved), but you don't see me running around telling anyone and everyone who will listen that those people were evil, satanic, heretical, decieved, or anything else. What did God tell Laban when he was going to meet Jacob? "See that you do not say anything good OR bad to Jacob." Why is this a difficult proposition? Meekness, it would seem, is clearly counter-intuitive.quote:
Tripping to Heaven, visits from angels, "prophetic" direction, and quotes that contradict Scripture - this doesn't separate IHOP from other churches in your mind? first off, would you care to prove hallucinogenic drugs are involved? Secondly, if you would care to begin discussing doctrines of various denominations, you will find all kinds of bugs under the rocks. Some denominations believe all the gifts of the Spirit have ceased to function. Some believe that the Church has replaced Israel in the heart of God. Every single denomination has doctrines that flat out go against scripture, some error in extrapolation. So really, error doesn't seperate one denomination of church as "that much worse". What seperates churches as being "that much worse" is when they start preaching ACTUAL heresy such as Arianism.quote:
- Latter Rain theology is NOT orthodox Christianity (It was deemed heresy by the Assemblies of God in the 1940's).
- Kingdom Now theology is NOT orthodox Christianity
- Dominionist Theology is NOT orthodox Christianity
These movements are supported by Mike Bickle as evidenced in this quote:
"I believe we're in a time of history where the Lord wants there to be a significant transfer of wealth...I don't mean millions, I mean billions of dollars, being transfered into the hands of the end time worship and prayer movement on a global level. Much more than billions. We're talking about the whole world, and we need to posture ourselves from a biblical point of view to be part of that. And its something that I'm not content that maybe a few of us understand it; it's bigger than this. I want us as a spiritual family to understand what hour we're living in and what is on the Lord's heart related to the end time worship movement and related to supernatural finances."
Those abberant theologies do not teach the true Jesus Christ. I respectfully suggest you do a little more research on what they do teach. ++and I would suggest you turn your microscope on yourself as quickly as you turn it on someone else. IHOP-KC does NOT preach Latter Rain theology, Kingdom Now, or Dominionism. Do your research. Mike preached on a dream God gave him saying that there would be a transferrence of wealth in the coming days, and the scriptures supporting the same idea.quote:
And how about pedobaptism, transubstantiation, Full Pre-Terism, ect. I consider all these to contradict scripture grossly but I do not condemn people who believe in these as anything but Christians who differ theologically from me. ++ding! +1quote:
I am not saying dont debate theology. What I am saying is dont start condemning people because they have a different theology then you. ++Ding! +2quote:
Could it be, that I am knowledgeable on the subject, and I came to a different conclusion than you did? Oh the humanity of it all! ++Ding! +1quote:
Words on a website mean NOTHING to me. Mike Bickle has a history of being a proponent of this theology and shares the stage with many others that also support it. It is well documented. ++Problem... Dominion theology states that the Church will take over the Governments of the earth prior to the second coming of Christ. IHOP specifically denies that, and your quote does not countermand that denial.quote:
So what happens to my first statement? It's null and void. Likewise, Bickle has made his own denial of Dominionism statements null and void because the 'Transfer of wealth' teaching IS Dominionism. ++Except that you are saying we are full of dominionist tripe because we don't fully disagree with them on one point? Dominionism is not Dominionism unless it includes a takeover of the Governments.quote:
I wonder if you looked at the CBN report on youtube I posted earlier. "...he says it's absolutely necessary if Christians ever want to see Jesus return." The link is in post #461. As you say they do not say it's the sole reason, however, the issue is, is establishing prayer houses with 24/7 prayer actually doing something vital which we must if we "ever want to see Jesus return". I do not agree that we must do anything to facilitate the return of Christ. ++Which denies the words of Christ to the City of Jerusalem in Matthew... The quote from the CBN report said that the Prayer Movement is vital to the second coming... Not IHOP-KC. If something happened so that IHOP-KC was made illegal, we would disperse to IHOP-Atlanta, Zadok House of Prayer in North Carolina, IHOP-Hattiesburg, Justice House of Prayer in DC, the Prayer Furnace in Chicago, or any other of the multitudes of Houses of Prayer that are springing up around the country. Once again, IHOP-KC has no delusions about being the "IT" of the second coming. The "IT" is the global prayer movement. The same Global Prayer movement that is taking off world-wide.quote:
Therefore, it important to understand that while God means to release the wealth, satan is releasing His strategies to keep the wealth "locked" that we are working to "unlock." God wants to open locked gates in '08. In order to possess the gate of wealth to, among other things, develop plans to eradicate systemic poverty, we need to develop new structures of intercession to do the spiritual warfare necessary to transfer wealth.
Among other things, here are some forms that need to take place:
1. New prayer movements with a focus on marketplace intercession.
2. More businesses hiring intercessors to pray for their workplace.
3. Focused intercession and training for specific targeted sectors of wealth and business. Intercessors need to be trained to understand business so that they can pray intelligently. ++Once again, notice that we are talking about being blessed to be a blessing here. Hence God releasing wealth so that we can eradicate systemic poverty. What is wrong with raising up intercessors to pray for God to release his provision? Not a single thing.quote:
If you don't know anything about Dominionism, it would be helpful to read up on it so you can understand the concepts at work here. ++The thing that really makes me laugh is that this is the same argument you guys were throwing at SD456 earlier for claiming that disagreement equates non-comprehension. The pot has officially called the kettle black, if you ask me.quote:
lw9, it looks like the only defense for Bickle is to say that he doesn't believe what he says he does. I read the jazz about the "joseph company" on IHOP's site last week--it seems the idea is that they have a "calling" to facilitate this transfer of wealth. ++Cyrus and Joseph being the typological keys. Cyrus gave a huge amount of money for the building of the temple after the Babylonian captivity and Joseph was in a position of business and political power to the point that it continued the Nation of Israel. The idea is asking God to give people enlightenment in the area of business, that they may be blessed to be a blessing. Is that wrong? Not a bit. The question to be asked... Does God call people into the market place? yes. Does God give us money so that we can bless others? Absolutely. Is it wrong to ask for God to raise people up who have this call? That would see to be where the division lies. So really this argument is about the merits of Intercession as a whole.quote:
We're back to Dominionism, which is at the heart of the 'transfer of wealth' teaching. It's a dangerous theology, and I strongly suggest you study up on it. I can't force you to do some research and learn about what it really entails. You either want to dig deeper, or you don't. ++No... You are back to Dominionism. The end-times scenario we see painted is that while the Antichrist is raising up his economic and political machine to rule the earth for his time, God is maturing and providing for the church. Once again, this is solidly Biblical (especially in light of the wheat and the tares).quote:
What do alleged statements made about you in another thread have to do with this topic? If you are referring to someone here [such as myself] because of another thread, then at least have the courage and maturity to address that person or persons in the proper thread or in a PM rather than take your personal grudge out here. Courage and maturity? Because of a drive-by? Really, the personal attacks are getting to be too much.quote:
But, they don't pay them so they can eat and live. As I said earlier in this thread, their staff has to raise their own support from private donors and then they have to pay a substantial amount of money to take specific IHOP classes and schools in order to even be considered to be unpaid staff. Oh, and then they are encouraged to rent their apartments from Mrs. Bickle and Son's real estate company. Come on, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that someone's making money on this deal...and it isn't hard to figure who that is! Okay, I will say this again in case we all missed it... Prior to the GodTV webcast equipment coming, IHOP-KC had a $20,000 a WEEK pricetag just for operating the prayer room. All of the funds that come from the classes at the school get put back into the school (the faculty take the federally required minimum salary, and there's paying for facilities, equipment, materials, and a host of other things), the funds from the internships get put back into the internships (including paying for housing, food, materials, room costs, outreach overheads, etc.) GladHeart realty gives a tremendous portion of their profits to IHOP-KC who also sends money to other houses of prayer around the world, has a work-scholarship set up for people having trouble raising support, and has to pay for conferences. The staff raise their own support because we are missionaries. I know several people who are supported by their home churches as full-time missionaries, as well as recieving funds from individual donors. All donations are voluntary and bear no obligations. If they are made through IHOP-KC they are tax deductible, of you can give support directly to the staff members. There is no scam, there is no under-the-carpet payments, and there is no hush-money. Essentially, this is delving into the realm of conspiracy theory. And we all know that the problem of with conspiracy theories is that there is no way to conclusively disprove them. I would put up for example that Mike lives in a Duplex and drives a beat-up '89 Honda. If the man is pocketing millions of dollars, he is doing a tremendous job of hiding it... like, he must be burying it in the back yard kind of tremendous job.quote:
The proof is in Bickle's own words on the videos. I've heard it for myself, and it's already been pointed out to you. There's nothing more I can do ++I guess you "love" isn't as strong as you think... you are giving up. While I appreciate Stephanos taking the bullet, he is quite right. IHOP does not believe in Dominionism as it has just been defined. If you are going to get nit-picky about complete disagreement on some issues, we can't believe that Jesus died and rose again three days later because the WoF crowd teaches that. It's really a bad argument.quote:
Now if you are using his words from 20 years ago, that is just pathetic. Can not someone change their views on things? I use to believe in evolution, before I saw it was wrong. **Ding!** +1
Adam
< Message edited by FurGodWurLivin -- 1/24/2008 6:48:46 AM >
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 9:18:21 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Mike preached on a dream God gave him saying that there would be a transferrence of wealth in the coming days,
Lets try this again....That belief is a main tenet of Dominionism theology. How much more clear do we have to make that? lw9 has provided detailed descriptions of the beliefs of this movement. Descriptions that you have obviously chosen to ignore.
And BTW, Dominionists like Bickle have been predicting this massive transfer of wealth for 20 years now.
I had some friends get involved in this movement about 5 years ago. I heard the "transferring of wealth tripe then.
Guess what? It ain't happenin'! Why, cause it's not part of God's plan. Rather it's the Dominionists plan for lining their wallets!
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 9:56:44 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1582
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Here's a fundamental question I am now considering:
Does God actually want thousands of "intercessory missionaries" - people who are focused only on intercessory prayer? And for the rest of the church to make a priority of supporting these people?
Is that a priority for us as the body of Christ?
Is there evidence that Jesus taught that this was a priority?
Other evidence in scripture, that this was some kind of mandate for today, not something simply intended for a particular point in time in the OT? Does a historical description translate into a mandate we should follow today?
Or is it simply that God wants all of us followers in Christ to be in prayer frequently, as part of our daily lives?
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 1/24/2008 10:03:40 AM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 10:11:58 AM
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lw9
Posts: 879
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JimboFletch:
This is the last time I'm going to address this.
I addressed you PERSONALLY in post #520. There was nothing veiled about that response to YOU. I then addressed crankius and gave a quick explanation in post #524 because crankius had addressed me.
quote:
JimboFletch: Makes me wonder about self-proclaimed know it alls and their FACTS...
For the record, that is what I was talking about. If you want to call someone, such as myself, a self-proclaimed know it all because you're angry from another thread - and clearly that was what was behind your remark - then take it to the appropriate thread and face them properly. I strongly suggest you drop the subject because it's way off-topic and WAY out of line.
Truly sorry, folks! Edited one last time cause I felt like I needed to clear up the confusion on this mind-bogglingly absurd matter after seeing post #544, and I didn't want to add yet another off-topic post.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 1/24/2008 12:38:17 PM >
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 10:20:03 AM
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lw9
Posts: 879
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quote:
stateofgrace: Does God actually want thousands of "intercessory missionaries" - people who are focused only on intercessory prayer? And for the rest of the church to make a priority of supporting these people?
Is that a priority for us as the body of Christ?
Is there evidence that Jesus taught that this was a priority?
Other evidence in scripture, that this was some kind of mandate for today, not something simply intended for a particular point in time in the OT? Does a historical description translate into a mandate we should follow today?
Now those are the million dollar questions. I will be interested in seeing the Biblically supported answers that come back on these.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:30:35 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
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Hi prophetica!
Absolutely no arguments here that prayer is a good and a powerful thing! I think what we are distinguishing between is people praying fervently [as we should] vs. setting up an 'official' prayer movement organization. I just can't find a directive for that in the Bible.
I guess I liken this to someone deciding to build an ornate Cathedral and then expecting the congregation to support it and cough up the funds to keep the roof plated in gold. The real question is: Did God tell anyone to do that?? 
God hears our prayers where we stand so there is no need to set up a special prayer organization. I can guarantee they have no better 'access' to God and are in no higher position than the humble Christian on their knees and alone in their room.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:31:51 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
stateofgrace: Does God actually want thousands of "intercessory missionaries" - people who are focused only on intercessory prayer? And for the rest of the church to make a priority of supporting these people?
Is that a priority for us as the body of Christ?
Is there evidence that Jesus taught that this was a priority?
Other evidence in scripture, that this was some kind of mandate for today, not something simply intended for a particular point in time in the OT? Does a historical description translate into a mandate we should follow today?
Now those are the million dollar questions. I will be interested in seeing the Biblically supported answers that come back on these.
Oh, please, come now. The church for 2000 years has supported people in prayer lives. Look at all the monks, nuns, Moravian prayer movements, it goes on and on and on. God has ALWAYS raised up people who spend most of their time in prayer and fasting while others support them in it. This is nothing new, as Prophetica said. This is as old as christianity.
You are so intent on being negative that you can't see how ridiculous some of your questions are getting....find a bible verse that says it's ok to support someone who wants to spend their time in prayer? Good grief. Just look at church history.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
I can guarantee they have no better 'access' to God and are in no higher position than the humble Christian on their knees and alone in their room.
Of course as opposed to the arrogant, self-righteous christians who like to gather together to worship and pray in a prayer room. No one has ever said that God doesn't listen to the person alone in their prayer closet. But God has always raised up prayer movements. The moravian 24/7 prayer movement in Hernhut, Germany lasted 100 years around the clock. God raised it up for a purpose, do you care to argue with God about that? Or do you really believe that God doesn't ever call a people to do something very specific for a purpose in His Kingdom? That's a shaky leg to stand on if you do.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 1/24/2008 2:39:34 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:41:18 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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My gosh, first I am supporting IHOP, now I am agreeing with SD456?? Hell MUST be frozen over.
Anyway, lw9 would like you to look up Luke 2:36-38. Seems there was this woman at the temple who never left and was ALWAYS praying and fasting to the Lord. So, here we have one case of 24 hour prayer and fasting. Now, say God calls several more people to do this (for you would agree that God DID call Anna to this life right). Is it wrong for those people to join together to support each other? Now of course one person rarely is called to personally pray and fast for 24 hours. So, here with a larger group, you can have at least one person praying at all times. Tell me is that not a good thing?
You see, of all my problems with IHOP teachings, the 24 hour prayer part one of the things that I have the least problems with, and one of the ones with the MOST scriptural support in my eyes. I say this even though, personally I am not called to long prayers. My prayers are often short, to the point, and done in less than a few minutes. But some people CAN pray for hours at a time. And I have NO problems with a organization gearing itself towards supporting those people.
The question is, why do you?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/24/2008 2:43:28 PM
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LaurainAL
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Rats! I was hoping this thread was about pancakes.
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