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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 5:14:28 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat
Your church description is..."a company of dreamers, pursuing the dream of His Kingdom and will, on earth as it is in heaven. We are a community of believers on a journey discovering the heart of God for His Church; a gathering of friends that have decided that Worship is our priority and Living in Community is our privilege. We are a people called to transform the culture around us, not reflect it; destined to determine its history, not display it."
And which part of this do you believe contradicts scripture? Perhaps pursuing God's will on earth as it is in heaven? Or the mention that we are on a journey? Or that we are discovering God's heart? Is worshipping God not to be a priority? And are we not to transform our culture? It's interesting that this is the text you've chosen to somehow 'prove' that a certain church is off course.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. Though it is off the topic, I know that NO church is safe from heretic-hunters. (don't want to be rude here, but it's amusing how quickly you jump from attacking one church to attacking another church.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat
I also see that your leader calls himself a Prophet and "has written several books, Approaching the Heart of Prophecy, Prophecy and Responsibility, A Divine Confrontation... Birth Pangs of the New Church and Developing Your Prophetic Gifting, and eight interactive journals, Beholding and Becoming, Towards a Powerful Inner Life, The Language of Promise, The Nature of God, Hiddenness and Manifestation, Crafted Prayer, God's Keeping Power, and Living in Dependency and Wonder."
Actually Graham isn't the leader, he's simply a minister on staff. And I love him to pieces. You should read some of his books that you've carefully listed. Thank you for that. They will inspire you to love Jesus with a pure child-like devotion. They would definately be healthier material than what you read on these forums (and much truer, also)  Graham loves the Father with more of a child-like trust and dependency than I've ever heard anyone teach. Jesus really loves this boy of His very, VERY much. I only strive to attain the kind of intimacy that he has with our Lord.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/27/2007 5:22:45 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 5:24:25 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Thanks Adam for taking the time to post your knowledge and experiences. I still have many doubts and hesitations about IHOP, but you have indeed calmed some fears. I still question, or rather concerns, on things like the aforementioned children's prophecy focus, and of course a school with out accreditation; but by and large while I do not agree with many things about the church, I can honestly say I no longer consider it (not sure if I truly ever did) a extreme "out" there sect. Honestly a lot of my concerns probably are rooted from how rudely I was treated by a AG church, and while I know IHOP and AG are not related, the whole experience I had with that previous church has put me off of the charismatic movement as a whole. Plus add the aforementioned feelings of uneasiness that I do believe is a gift from God for me, and well thats where it lies. Thanks again for sharing and take heart that you have at least one less anti-IHOP'er. Again not that I think I WAS, I just has questions and concerns.
Thanks, Stephanos, for your honesty. I understand how a bad church experience can make it difficult to receive things that might look the same. I've had those experiences myself. 
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 2:58:04 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 162
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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Wow this thread is moving fast.... Forgive me for the long posts, but I'm only on once every two days or so...quote:
"...After the death of Branham in the early fifties and the demise of the Latter Rain movement, Cain apparently went into self-imposed exile for years. In recent years he reappeared, linking himself to the Kansas City prophets with Mike Bickle and Bob Jones as the leading resident prophets. Among these self-designated prophets, Cain was given a special place of recognition because of his nearly always-accurate clairvoyant ability to see things that no one else could." As I said, MIKE does not identify HIMSELF as a prophet. I can't account for accusations or lables being placed by other websites. Mike has never called himself a prophet.. from the pulpit during my internship he literally said "All should desire to prophesy, but not all, myself included, are prophets." That is a direct contradiction from the man's own mouth to any accusation or citation you can drag up.quote:
Defnition of MSOG:
- "IMMORTALIZATION" (a state of perfection or sinlessness)
- "RESTORATION" of the offices of "APOSTLES AND PROPHETS," who are not to be questioned in any way.
- Absolute Authoritarianism - It is imperative that the people do not judge teachers, regardless of doctrine.
- "MANIFEST SONS OF GOD" - Attainment of "godhood."
- Sonship comes through "HIGHER REVELATION"
- Extreme fear and guilt for those who do not move forward to perfection in order that the Kingdom of God be established. Compare that to what the Bible and IHOP actually teach. There will be a generation that does not die (1st Corinthians 15 is pretty clear on that one). IHOP teaches that Christians shouldn't be judging each other the way they are (per Matthew 5-7... otherwise known as the Sermon on the Mount). Mike and other teachers at IHOP-KC do not believe under any circumstances or forms that men will achieve Godhood. The only man to be God is Jesus Christ himself. What fear and guilt? What is Mike's message about the millenium? Be faithful, and God will reward your faithfulness (Jesus himself told several parables with the same meaning). I'm telling you this as someone who isn't searching frantically for websites accusing the man of being one thing or another, but I am telling you this from having sat in more than several of his meetings. What does this mean practically? It means that I can be a source for other people who are researching the same topic......... oh yeah, but I forget that I'm "on the inside" so I "must be tainted"....quote:
Wow, Sox. That's some scary stuff. It sounds a little like some of the stuff some of the leaders in my old church thought of themselves. The regular people often just smiled at that. Covaan, you are quite right that that is disturbing... however, it is not a doctrine ascribed to by the International House of Prayer. So, feel free to be shocked, but don't make the mistake of tying IHOP-KC to it.quote:
Here is some of what I have found so far:
There was one speaker who was bragging that they were “teaching 6 y/o children how to have the gift of Prophesy.” (YOU CANNOT TEACH A GIFT.) Actually that is a misquote... Lenny LaGuardia was actually saying that they are teaching 6 year olds how to USE the gift of prophecy (the man makes roughly the same speech at every conference).quote:
Mike Bickle teaches that the Kingdom is already here. (Jehovah’s Witness. I have yet to see mention of a literal Heaven. It’s all about the 1000 year reign here on earth.) This is a misuderstanding of IHOP's endtimes message. Mike preaches that the idea of the endtimes is "Now, but not yet". So, the kingdom is here spiritually in that God heals people, and pours out the spirit as he sees fit, but there is the physical kingdom still to come at the end of the Tribulation (please remember that I mentioned this when I said that IHOP's eschatology was post-trib rapture, pre-mil return of Christ). So, is the kingdom here now? Yes and no. The Kingdom of God exists spiritually within the church, but the Physical Kingdom of the New Jerusalem is still to come.quote:
At Jesus’s return, He will NOT appear across the earth simultaneously. Instead, His return will be a global procession that will take time. Remember, Jesus is a man and will be a man forever. He is also God, but he took on flesh, and still had the same when he ascended to Heaven. That is what we call the mystery of the Hypostatic Union. It breaks all kinds of rules to have God take on flesh, live 33 years in Human time, and then DIE. The thing that Mike takes is that "every eye will see Him", and if he is still 100% God and 100% man, then there must be some legnth of time involved for every eye to see Him. Simple enough.quote:
God will not release His authority without their night and day prayer room. Not true in the slightest. IHOP-KC is part of a prayer movement. We are not isolated, unique, the first, or the last to be in the prayer movement. Need I remind anyone of the 24/7 movement in the late 90's? I can think of 6 other full-time houses of Prayer in the United States alone, not to mention Prayer Mountain in South Korea and a host of other prayer ministries in the earth. IHOP does not believe itself to hold all the chips, but merely to be a single cog in a rather large gear. Now, we do believe that God is raising up the prayer movement to partner with His spirit to bring forth revival and prepare the earth for the return of Christ (by preaching the gospel, healing the sick, feeding the poor, what have you...)quote:
They believe Jesus is God incarnated. But, they also believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities. This is not a contradiction, rather, this is trinitarian doctrine. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three seperate entities, but are also one identity. IHOP is not polytheistic or Unitarian... rather, we believe in the Trinity, that Jesus is just as much "God" and the Holy Spirit. All three are equal, and the three are one. Take a look at 1st John 5 to see the apostle's take on it.quote:
They do seem to be targeting the young people. It does seem to be nothing short of intellectual brain-washing. IHOP isn't actually targeting anyone. Rather, we are attracting a certain crowd. Big deal, churches do the same. We don't come down on certain churches for having a predominantly black congregation. We don't come down on certain churches for having congregations that are mostly older people. Better yet, we don't come down on boxing for attracting mostly Male viewers. IHOP has a very "matter-of-fact" attitude about itself, and I prefer it that way. If you spend much time here, you will hear several times that IHOP is part of a larger movement. If someone would rather go to IHOP-Atlanta (no actual affiliation), Zadok House of Prayer (in Charlotte), Justice House of Prayer (in D.C.), the Prayer Furnace (in Chicago), IHOP-Cleveland (same as Atlanta), then it's fine. The point is not growing the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (though I can guarantee that will happen), the point is not sucking people dry of their money, the point is getting Christians to pray. If that happens, then we have succeeded. Mike has said many times, "even if all of the staff members leave IHOP and go to other stuff, I will still be here in Kansas City, because it is where God has called me to be and to pray."quote:
My research does continue, my 20 y/o son wants to go to KC and do their internship. Yes, it is personal. Pray for my research, for me and for my son. I will be spreading the word. We need to unveil this cult. Allow me to say, sir, that I turn 20 next month. I am one that is your son's age, I have been through both tracks of the NightWatch internship. As a result of having been in said internship, I read my Bible in six weeks of my own volition... rather than go out partying with co-workers, I stay awake and pray all night six nights a week. I'm growing in living the Sermon on the Mount, I'm learning more about eschatology, and I'm developing my talents for writing, drawing, and sound design. If that isn't positive fruit considering the condition of most 18-25 year olds today, then nothing is. Judge by the fruit, my friend.
quote:
Another great article on that same page is 'The Harp and Bowl - Some questions' which might be very useful since it explores the whole premise behind IHOP's 24-hour intercessory prayer warfare and addresses IHOP specifically. Anyway, I hope this helps. I looked at the link...... I was unimpressed. The idea of the harp and bowl model is that it makes prayer easier, more enjoyable, and gives the hope for endurance in the place of intercession. It is the combining of skilled musicianship and prayer that makes prayer easier. Someone is praying while the band is playing a relatively simple chord progression, then the singers sing back what the intercessor prayed. It isn't more anointed then just praying by yourself, but it is more corporate, which means more people are praying for the same thing. It doesn't merit additional favor with God, it doesn't make your prayers more "weighty", but it is a way to (A) give structure to a prayer meeting (B) keep the whole room engaged with the prayer and (C) make it possible to pray for 20+ years without running through your prayer list every 3 minutes. Harp-and-Bowl is merely a model of running a prayer meeting... just like small groups, bible studies, and church meetings themselves.quote:
I still question, or rather concerns, on things like the aforementioned children's prophecy focus, and of course a school with out accreditation; but by and large while I do not agree with many things about the church, I can honestly say I no longer consider it (not sure if I truly ever did) a extreme "out" there sect. Understood, and I appreciate the affirmation. It is difficult to warm up to something if you think or thought at some time it wasn't/isn't right. My understanding of the accreditation process is that it isn't about proving the quality of your material as much as it is proving how you are teaching your material. Last time I checked (a couple months ago) it is just a matter of FSM teaching enough credit class hours a semester and they should get their accreditation. The real point of IHOP is not our doctrine, our teachers, our Bible School, or anything else. The beating heart of the International House of Prayer is the Prayer Room itself. If you can pray and you're praying to the God of the Bible, you are more than welcome to participate at IHOP. And other than music preferences, there isn't really much to argue with at the heart of it. The teachings, internships, church services, and Bible school are all peripherals to the central ministry which is the prayer room.quote:
Honestly a lot of my concerns probably are rooted from how rudely I was treated by a AG church, and while I know IHOP and AG are not related, the whole experience I had with that previous church has put me off of the charismatic movement as a whole. Plus add the aforementioned feelings of uneasiness that I do believe is a gift from God for me, and well thats where it lies. Thanks again for sharing and take heart that you have at least one less anti-IHOP'er. Again not that I think I WAS, I just has questions and concerns. Understandable, and I greatly appreciate your honesty on this topic. IHOP kind of breaks molds in that we aren't geared to be "non-denominational" (which is, in and of itself, a denomination), but rather, to be "inter-denominational". I guess really what it comes down to, is that prayer is supposed to be universal for the Church, and that is what our main ministry is... but it is easy to get hung up in the doctrines at times... Hopefully the church at large (IHOP included) can learn to be meeker.... fast.quote:
Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. Mike Bickle was and until he denounces this movement, will always be associated with the Latter Rain/Kingdom Now/MSOG movement. Last I checked, Mike was a man capable of thinking for himself.... and, as explained earlier, has much to say against Latter Rain doctrine..... I won't bring it up again.... not in this post anyway.quote:
and his cohorts ......... well that's less than flattering...........
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 11:24:52 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The real point of IHOP is not our doctrine, our teachers, our Bible School, or anything else. The beating heart of the International House of Prayer is the Prayer Room itself. If you can pray and you're praying to the God of the Bible, you are more than welcome to participate at IHOP. And other than music preferences, there isn't really much to argue with at the heart of it. The teachings, internships, church services, and Bible school are all peripherals to the central ministry which is the prayer room
A sincere and credit-worthy p.r. paragraph, well done--however--as you see the "real point" and the results, others see it differently. An inside view may be a view from the bottom. What does it look like at the top? To present a picture of a guy monking away in a prayer closet doesn't cover everything. Is there or is there not an assertion that God is sponsoring or endorsing or leading a "movement" to have people set up physical locations wherein there is continuous prayer? _There_ is something to agree or disagree on. Then you can't, though you seem to indicate the contrary, separate the "prayer" side from the teaching side.
Did IHOP begin when an "angel" spoke to Bob Jones, or did Bob Jones "prophesy" it, or was it that Paul Cain looked at the pancake house and prophesied a prayer house? If any of those or all of those is true then it's not really leaving the KC prophets behind...it's continuing their debatable prophecies.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I guess really what it comes down to, is that prayer is supposed to be universal for the Church, and that is what our main ministry is... but it is easy to get hung up in the doctrines at times...
Adam
The "doctrines" is how we tell if what is going on is in line with Scripture. Personalities, friendships or personal enjoyment do not determine truth or the will of God.
Have a nice day, or night, brother.
--wintery.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 11:46:39 AM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fuquote:
rGod
As I said, MIKE does not identify HIMSELF as a prophet. I can't account for accusations or lables being placed by other websites. Mike has never called himself a prophet.. from the pulpit during my internship he literally said "All should desire to prophesy, but not all, myself included, are prophets." That is a direct contradiction from the man's own mouth to any accusation or citation you can drag up.
Thank you, FurGod! It's good to hear what the truth is that Mike Bickle ACTUALLY speaks out of his mouth rather than the silly stuff that people drag out of obscure websites.
Your answers are very informative (not to mention first hand, which is VERY refreshing)...love reading your posts! Wow, I think the one thing that stands out to me on this post more than any other is how a couple people on this site have pulled out ridiculous accusations about IHOP, completely out of context, and how quickly others on this site believe those accusations and say, "gosh, that's scary, these guys are definately people we should stay away from."
Everyone of your refutes were done with wisdom and blew those false accusations out of the water, not to mention showed how they were scripturally off base with their accusations. And it shed light on how people are getting from point A to B in showing how others are 'heretics' in their eyes by making statements that are completely out of context and giving their OWN meaning to a statement contrary to its original intent.
Eye opening.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/28/2007 12:09:27 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:11:24 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
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This is from an obscure website
http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000000381
If you click on Blueprint Prophecy this is what you get.
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
(edited) March 26, 1984
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
God shall confirm in your spirit; and do not proceed until He does. Upon the
confirmation you should begin to act immediately to take the bride to the city; to
the city of Kansas City, rather than having the city come to Him.
Therefore there should be another…on the north side and on the east side and on
the west side, even as it is on the south side. Therefore there shall be four…. I
have shown you My grace. My grace is sufficient. My grace is Me in you and in
this shall be the 5-fold ministry.In days past, I have said…You are a Garden Center…of My choice says the Lord.
In My Garden Center…I shall raise up…plants of renown… it shall be known, and
the ways shall be renown. I will bring and place...those that will be the caretakers
of My (Garden Center…). You shall be a dresser of My vineyard, says the Lord,
and the vineyard shall be these people that I shall bring unto you and out of you.
Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said
there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall
raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters. They shall be known
and renowned. Even as the children of the renowned – shall they be. These
children shall flow out of…My Spirit. They shall be spiritual children and they
shall inhabit the uttermost parts of the earth. They shall inhabit the place that I
have called for you to settle and to raise up other ministries and to send out.
You shall set in order…as I call the signals—you shall only be acting as I send in
the signals to you. As I give you the word of My messengers, you shall hear and it
shall be confirmed as a truth in your heart and you shall act upon it.
Upon the acting of this, I will place within you and within your hands the 5-fold
ministry. The ministry shall flow and rotate...You shall set in as I will call and
place in your hands to anoint with the Holy Oil - the significance of My acceptance
of those whom I shall confirm by My Holy Spirit….that I would…prepare for Me
a bride in this area. The people shall flow then into the tabernacles of habitation.
They shall flow from the North, the East, the South and the West. They shall come
and they shall be dandled by their sides… You shall be ministers of light and
ministers of truth of Me, says the Lord. Even this shall be a people that shall be
known of Me and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. Their
responsibility lies within Me and their safety lies within drawing close together.
Yes, I would have them draw real close together. I say unto you again, that their
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
2
safety lies in drawing real close together. There shall be unity of the Spirit and of
the doctrine. Your doctrine shall be My doctrine - byMy Spirit.
I will prepare a place for My people. You shall go forth and lead My people to a
place of habitation. I will show you and I will guide you. I will be your purse
bearer. I will hand the checks and the money as the time is prepared for this.
There shall be a time and a season and a place for My people to go. Even as I shall
call them forth before the cities become desolate. You shall raise up…other
cities that shall be the permanent place. There shall be schools of ministry. They
shall flow out of the city into the country--into the country, into the City of
Habitation; says the Lord.
This load shall be too heavy for you. You shall not be able to bear the burden
alone. I shall raise up helpmates, yes, even many help-mates both male and
female. I will set them and call them to stand by your side. You shall go forth and
lead a people even as Moses led a people and there shall be those that shall lift up
your hands. You shall consecrate this people…and assign and delegate. I would
have you to delegate the authority, duty, and responsibility, because you cannot
carry this load yourself. The burden is too heavy and the journey is too far.
I will send wise men even as I sent wise men to behold My Son's birth, so shall I
send wise men to teach you, help you, guide, you and to be a strength and a source
of supply to you. I shall be your purse bearer. I shall raise up ministers of
finance in this area. To those that will hear My voice, yield, become obedient and
truly do as My word says by setting the Kingdom first in their heart - I shall bless
them. I shall cause them to prosper and they will be prospering because it is. They
will remember and know that of a truth that it is their Lord and their God that
gives them power to get wealth (Deut. 8:18). They shall prosper when there is
no prosperity and bear fruit when others are barren. Your land and your habitation
shall be a place of a forerunner - you shall go before hand. Even as I sent Joseph
before hand, so shall you go before....you shall send forth the Joseph out of My
bride and My congregation to prepare--even to make ready a time and a place that I
shall choose, it shall be of My choosing and of My calling, says the Lord.
I shall visit you. There shall be many that shall raise up out of you and you shall be
known in your ministries. From out of you, shall come forth the 5-fold ministry.
This ministry shall be known and established…I shall move quickly. I will do a
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
3
quick work in teaching and in bringing up these people that must be brought up.
Yes, this must be a “do-work,” and a new work. As I open My hand--even out of
the clouds, even as I have shown you and I shall show you that - as My hand opens
and pulsates so shall the children grow mightily and quickly.
I shall bring them up, teach them and lead them by the right way that they might go
and prepare a City for Habitation - they will plant their vineyards and sow their
fields. Their cattle shall give their increase, says the Lord. For even as I have sent
My messengers and many have heard the voice…I have, shot the arrow of My
deliverance for My people. The arrow is the flaming arrow of My deliverance of
My gospel and of My power.
The Out-Pouring of the Latter Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city.It shall be noised abroad even world-wide. They will stand in awe and will return
unto the Holy reverence of My Name and of My people. They shall flourish. The
way of My teachings shall be by My Spirit and MyWord. I will do a new thing.
I will visit them in the night season with dreams and visions as I have said in My
Word. I will even send My angels. I will take people in the Spirit and catch
them away in the Spirit…it shall be by Me and I shall teach them in new ways.
My Word shall not return unto me void but that thing which I have said is absolute,
My Word is absolute. My Word is sovereign. My Word is established. My Word
shall be. If there be those that are stubborn, rebellious and obstinate, I shall
remove the Royal Diadem and the Crown of Glory and I shall give it to another,
says the Lord. This is the day of My visitation unto you. I shall call the recording
angels of Heaven and earth to record to you, this day that it is sealed upon you and
it cannot be removed, in Jesus' mighty name.
For you shall not build unto Me or unto yourself buildings of places to in-gather.
You shall continue with the plan as I have given you in the beginning. For it is My
plan. It shall be by My design, and shall not be by groping as in the dark - for My
people that have been sitting in the valley and shadow of darkness have seen the
light.
Even as Paul had seen the light, but his fellow-laborers saw not the light, but he
became the reflection of that light even as John bore witness of that light. For it is
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
4
given unto you, to know and to see the Just One (Acts 22:12-14). For I have many
people that must yet come to the light. My light is understanding.
For out of the center of the Hub – it shall grow forth from the House of Prayer.
For I have said My House shall be called a "House of Prayer". For this is of Me.
The fifth shall be My grace. For out of My grace shall flow forth grace and favor
to all that are willing and obedient. For have I not said the first shall be last and
the last shall be first. Thus it shall be as the fifth place of ministry is to be readied-
-then it shall be built by My design.
For into this place shall flow the outreach ministries and from these in-gathering
meetings shall flow the fullness of Christ…the workings of the fullness of the gifts
of the Holy Ghost. For when you have the nine gifts come together, then shall be
fulfilled the scripture, “these works and even greater works shall you do.”
There are the many that shall be raised up at the appointed time for the world to
see. This is a part of the ministry of the End-Time Church. For even as I have
called John to make ready a people for the Lord, even so this will…bear the
forerunner spirit that was upon John. This shall be a spirit of preparation and of
preparedness, for this is the separation work. For I have called for My people to
come out and be separate--even unto Me. For I will not have a piece of a people:
but it shall be all or none. For, I place in your hands the final decision and you
shall go forth by faith. Faith is by My grace and in My grace is My tolerance and
contingency for flesh.
For the government shall be by the voice of twelve. For disciples shall be sent
out... They shall go as servants into the out-of-the-way places to compel them to
come in to My House that it may be full. For this shall move to the outer borders
of the city for the final phases of the building of My "House of Prayer".
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:20:32 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
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Dear IHOPers,
Why is it recommended that when studying your Bible that you use commentaries and not concordances?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:26:25 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wintery
Is there or is there not an assertion that God is sponsoring or endorsing or leading a "movement" to have people set up physical locations wherein there is continuous prayer?
Wintery, if you don't believe that God has in the past, does now, and will in the future command people to start things that are important to Him then you would have to forget the past 2000 years of christian history.
During the reformation God commanded Count Zinzendorf to start a prayer community on his property. He did just that. People from many denominations joined him and they prayed around the clock for 100 years. They sent out hundreds of missionaries from that base.
This is no different. God is commanding people all over the earth today to start up 24/7 prayer places. There are about 6 in England that I know of that do this for a week at a time and move the venue around to different locations. In fact it was the first place I'd learned of something like this. And that was years ago. God is strategically setting HIS church up for these end-times and prayer is very, very important to what is happening right now. Mike Bickle is fully capable of obeying God and he doesn't need to answer to people about what he believes Jesus is commanding him to do. The fruit of it will show itself and has shown itself already in all the awesome young people who are learning to pray and learning to grow their self-discipline to be in one place for hours at a time seeking God. That takes a lot of self discipline that most people don't have. I commend Mike Bickle for his obedience to our Lord.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:34:38 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yasou_ray
This is from an obscure website
http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000000381
If you click on Blueprint Prophecy this is what you get.
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
(edited) March 26, 1984
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
God shall confirm in your spirit; and do not proceed until He does. Upon the
confirmation you should begin to act immediately to take the bride to the city; to
the city of Kansas City, rather than having the city come to Him.
Therefore there should be another…on the north side and on the east side and on
the west side, even as it is on the south side. Therefore there shall be four…. I
have shown you My grace. My grace is sufficient. My grace is Me in you and in
this shall be the 5-fold ministry.In days past, I have said…You are a Garden Center…of My choice says the Lord.
In My Garden Center…I shall raise up…plants of renown… it shall be known, and
the ways shall be renown. I will bring and place...those that will be the caretakers
of My (Garden Center…). You shall be a dresser of My vineyard, says the Lord,
and the vineyard shall be these people that I shall bring unto you and out of you.
Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said
there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall
raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters. They shall be known
and renowned. Even as the children of the renowned – shall they be. These
children shall flow out of…My Spirit. They shall be spiritual children and they
shall inhabit the uttermost parts of the earth. They shall inhabit the place that I
have called for you to settle and to raise up other ministries and to send out.
You shall set in order…as I call the signals—you shall only be acting as I send in
the signals to you. As I give you the word of My messengers, you shall hear and it
shall be confirmed as a truth in your heart and you shall act upon it.
Upon the acting of this, I will place within you and within your hands the 5-fold
ministry. The ministry shall flow and rotate...You shall set in as I will call and
place in your hands to anoint with the Holy Oil - the significance of My acceptance
of those whom I shall confirm by My Holy Spirit….that I would…prepare for Me
a bride in this area. The people shall flow then into the tabernacles of habitation.
They shall flow from the North, the East, the South and the West. They shall come
and they shall be dandled by their sides… You shall be ministers of light and
ministers of truth of Me, says the Lord. Even this shall be a people that shall be
known of Me and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. Their
responsibility lies within Me and their safety lies within drawing close together.
Yes, I would have them draw real close together. I say unto you again, that their
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
2
safety lies in drawing real close together. There shall be unity of the Spirit and of
the doctrine. Your doctrine shall be My doctrine - byMy Spirit.
I will prepare a place for My people. You shall go forth and lead My people to a
place of habitation. I will show you and I will guide you. I will be your purse
bearer. I will hand the checks and the money as the time is prepared for this.
There shall be a time and a season and a place for My people to go. Even as I shall
call them forth before the cities become desolate. You shall raise up…other
cities that shall be the permanent place. There shall be schools of ministry. They
shall flow out of the city into the country--into the country, into the City of
Habitation; says the Lord.
This load shall be too heavy for you. You shall not be able to bear the burden
alone. I shall raise up helpmates, yes, even many help-mates both male and
female. I will set them and call them to stand by your side. You shall go forth and
lead a people even as Moses led a people and there shall be those that shall lift up
your hands. You shall consecrate this people…and assign and delegate. I would
have you to delegate the authority, duty, and responsibility, because you cannot
carry this load yourself. The burden is too heavy and the journey is too far.
I will send wise men even as I sent wise men to behold My Son's birth, so shall I
send wise men to teach you, help you, guide, you and to be a strength and a source
of supply to you. I shall be your purse bearer. I shall raise up ministers of
finance in this area. To those that will hear My voice, yield, become obedient and
truly do as My word says by setting the Kingdom first in their heart - I shall bless
them. I shall cause them to prosper and they will be prospering because it is. They
will remember and know that of a truth that it is their Lord and their God that
gives them power to get wealth (Deut. 8:18). They shall prosper when there is
no prosperity and bear fruit when others are barren. Your land and your habitation
shall be a place of a forerunner - you shall go before hand. Even as I sent Joseph
before hand, so shall you go before....you shall send forth the Joseph out of My
bride and My congregation to prepare--even to make ready a time and a place that I
shall choose, it shall be of My choosing and of My calling, says the Lord.
I shall visit you. There shall be many that shall raise up out of you and you shall be
known in your ministries. From out of you, shall come forth the 5-fold ministry.
This ministry shall be known and established…I shall move quickly. I will do a
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
3
quick work in teaching and in bringing up these people that must be brought up.
Yes, this must be a “do-work,” and a new work. As I open My hand--even out of
the clouds, even as I have shown you and I shall show you that - as My hand opens
and pulsates so shall the children grow mightily and quickly.
I shall bring them up, teach them and lead them by the right way that they might go
and prepare a City for Habitation - they will plant their vineyards and sow their
fields. Their cattle shall give their increase, says the Lord. For even as I have sent
My messengers and many have heard the voice…I have, shot the arrow of My
deliverance for My people. The arrow is the flaming arrow of My deliverance of
My gospel and of My power.
The Out-Pouring of the Latter Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city.It shall be noised abroad even world-wide. They will stand in awe and will return
unto the Holy reverence of My Name and of My people. They shall flourish. The
way of My teachings shall be by My Spirit and MyWord. I will do a new thing.
I will visit them in the night season with dreams and visions as I have said in My
Word. I will even send My angels. I will take people in the Spirit and catch
them away in the Spirit…it shall be by Me and I shall teach them in new ways.
My Word shall not return unto me void but that thing which I have said is absolute,
My Word is absolute. My Word is sovereign. My Word is established. My Word
shall be. If there be those that are stubborn, rebellious and obstinate, I shall
remove the Royal Diadem and the Crown of Glory and I shall give it to another,
says the Lord. This is the day of My visitation unto you. I shall call the recording
angels of Heaven and earth to record to you, this day that it is sealed upon you and
it cannot be removed, in Jesus' mighty name.
For you shall not build unto Me or unto yourself buildings of places to in-gather.
You shall continue with the plan as I have given you in the beginning. For it is My
plan. It shall be by My design, and shall not be by groping as in the dark - for My
people that have been sitting in the valley and shadow of darkness have seen the
light.
Even as Paul had seen the light, but his fellow-laborers saw not the light, but he
became the reflection of that light even as John bore witness of that light. For it is
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
4
given unto you, to know and to see the Just One (Acts 22:12-14). For I have many
people that must yet come to the light. My light is understanding.
For out of the center of the Hub – it shall grow forth from the House of Prayer.
For I have said My House shall be called a "House of Prayer". For this is of Me.
The fifth shall be My grace. For out of My grace shall flow forth grace and favor
to all that are willing and obedient. For have I not said the first shall be last and
the last shall be first. Thus it shall be as the fifth place of ministry is to be readied-
-then it shall be built by My design.
For into this place shall flow the outreach ministries and from these in-gathering
meetings shall flow the fullness of Christ…the workings of the fullness of the gifts
of the Holy Ghost. For when you have the nine gifts come together, then shall be
fulfilled the scripture, “these works and even greater works shall you do.”
There are the many that shall be raised up at the appointed time for the world to
see. This is a part of the ministry of the End-Time Church. For even as I have
called John to make ready a people for the Lord, even so this will…bear the
forerunner spirit that was upon John. This shall be a spirit of preparation and of
preparedness, for this is the separation work. For I have called for My people to
come out and be separate--even unto Me. For I will not have a piece of a people:
but it shall be all or none. For, I place in your hands the final decision and you
shall go forth by faith. Faith is by My grace and in My grace is My tolerance and
contingency for flesh.
For the government shall be by the voice of twelve. For disciples shall be sent
out... They shall go as servants into the out-of-the-way places to compel them to
come in to My House that it may be full. For this shall move to the outer borders
of the city for the final phases of the building of My "House of Prayer".
Awesome prophecies, Yasou! Thank you for sharing these. God is such a good God. Did you share them because you see something that contradicts scripture or contradicts God's character and nature? I don't see anything in them. If you do a word search in the bible you will see that God Himself uses the term "latter rain" many times, so using that term to denote the end-time raining down of the Spirit is not contrary to scripture. And of course the 5-fold ministry is talked about in the NT, so that doesn't contradict scripture either.
I love these prophecies! I haven't seen them before. They show how God is such a good provider to us. He gives us exactly what we need when He calls us to do something. He promised Mike that He would provide both financially and with people to help. And He encouraged Mike that people would leave that prayer house and have influence on other places in the world. How sweet is God to choose to bless His children in this way. Cool!
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:45:01 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
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Actually I was wondering who gave the prophecy.? Do you know?
And I only highlighted those sections because I keep hearing denials of Latter Rain being part of IHOP.
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
Blessings
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 1:10:01 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yasou_ray
Actually I was wondering who gave the prophecy.? Do you know?
And I only highlighted those sections because I keep hearing denials of Latter Rain being part of IHOP.
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
Blessings
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 2:52:00 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1558
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
Hope this helps:
Items in red are unbiblical beliefs
Beliefs of the Latter Rain Movement
Considered to be one of today's most dangerous false teachings in the church, the movement's doctrines are taught and supported by a wide range of controversial teachers. They include Rick Joyner, C. Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, Mike Bickle, Bill Hamon, and countless others.
The Latter Rain Revival was characterized by healings, the laying on of hands, emphasis on spiritual gifts, fasting, prayer, prophecy, allegiance to the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11), importance of the Jewish feast of Pentecost and Tabernacles, distrust of denominations, manifestations of the sons of God, and the returning of Jesus Christ in accordance with the outpouring of Gods spirit.
Splitting from the Assemblies of God, the Latter Rain Revival became increasingly anti-denominational (Melton, 418). They considered their beliefs to be a continuation or addition of the pentecostal movements (Melton, 418). Now all the churches have independent and autonomous congregations (Melton, 418)
The Latter Rain movement was Pentecostal in nature, yet it was contrasting the old Pentecostalism. NOLR (New Order of the Latter Rain) was more emotional and vibrant in comparison. Also, NOLR believed that spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands in contrast to "tarrying" for the Holy Spirit as the old Pentecostals did (Melton, 532).
William Branham has occasionaly been referred to as the founder of the Latter Rain revival due to his influential role in the revival's spread. Branham and Oral Roberts encouraged the spread of NOLR with their healing ministry (Melton, 84). Branham was also seen as the prophet (Elijah) of the movement. Franklin Hall was a healing evangelist and his emphasis on fasting and prayer were also instrumental in the development of the Latter Rain revival (Melton, 532).
Stemming from Ephesians 4:11 of the Bible, the Latter Rain followers believe in the restoration of the five-fold ministry. This ministry consists of apostles, prophets, missionaries, evangelists, pastors and teachers with the addition of apostles and prophets being the most controversial (Melton, 418).
The doctrine of Manifest Sons of God holds that "anointed" ones can enter into sonship and hence become divine. The belief that humans can become gods is highly controversial because it blurs the line between creator and created (Melton, 420). Latter Rain supporters think the doctrine of sonship is aligned with Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:45-47 and Romans 8:19) so that "sonship is an actual gaining of the image and likeness of Christ" (Melton, 420).
Joel's Army is another doctrine of the Latter Rain faith. This claims that the Latter Rain advocates must conquer and dominate the world in order for the new millenium and Christ to come .
Another common theme in NOLR is the "new thing" of Isaiah 43:19 and Acts 17:18-21. This belief is similar to gnosticism in that they are always seeking a "new thing" or revelation to escape the material world .
The Latter Rain movement believed it was important to understand the history of their movement. As they saw it, Christianity was slowly disintegrating throughout history and the church was becoming less and less "pristine" (Melton, 418). God began his restoration of the church beginning with Luther, then the process was continued by John Wesley and the Methodists, and then the Pentecostals and now the Latter Rain (Melton, 418).
From the beginning, the NOLR was opposed by the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal Assemblies of God. Later, in the 1980's, it was targeted by the Christian counter-cult organizations due to the Latter Rain doctrine of Manifest Sons of God. This belief claims that humans who believe in the Latter Rain can actually become divine themselves (Melton, 419-420).
The Latter Rain revival was a catalyst for later Pentecostal movements such as the Brownsville/Pensacola Revival and the Toronto Blessing/Laughing Phenomenon. These more recent movements differ from NOLR in that their beliefs are accepted by the Assemblies of God while the Latter Rain doctrines were considered heretical. The beliefs of both Brownsville and the Toronto Blessing are aligned exactly with those of the Latter Rain revival. There is an emphasis on the imparting of spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands and emotion filled "manifestations of gifts of the Holy Spirit." The Brownsville Revival began with a visiting evangelical speaker, Steve Hill, in June 1995.
Latter Rain or Dominion teaching can be summed up this way:
- The Church must be restored and equipped to rule by the five-fold ministries.
- It must come to perfection and complete visible UNITY.
- Out of the purified church will come a spiritual elite corps, a Corporate Christ who possess the
Spirit without measure.
- They will purge the earth of all wickedness and rebellion
- They will judge the apostate Church
- They will redeem all creation, and restore the earth
- They will eventually overcome death itself in a counterfeit of the Rapture
- The Church will thus inherit the earth, and rule over it from the Throne of Christ.
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 11/28/2007 2:58:27 PM >
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 7:45:27 PM
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Digrieze
Posts: 90
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
SOXFAN has posted a good summary of Latter Rain (Reign) basic tenants, but it's a mistake to treat it a a checklist. The "latter rain" heresy is not a "movement" that you can identify with a particular group as you can say The Vineyard or (previously) the Calvary Church movements. Instead, when people talk about the "latter rain" it's a group of heretical beliefs that may be held in whole or in part inside ANY church. The truth is these beliefs have been harming the church since Marcion and have had to be put addressed as the heresy they are in almost every generation. The current groups that consider the "latter rain" a "new thing God is doing" trace their history back to E.W. Kenan (also spelled Kenyan) in the 1940's. the Manifest Sons Of God part of his teaching has fallen out of favor with many of the "latter rain" groups after Kenyan's death (I guess he didn't get his immortal heavenly body on earth like he thought), although there are still groups in the Northwest U.S. and Southwest Canada that think he's hiding in the mountains of Washington state until it's time for him to come out and lead Joel's Army (a striking similarity to the Sunni Islam Mahdi). Most adhearants of the MSOG belief now state it as they will receive the fullness of their heavenly power (and authority) on earth, but don't claim the immortality part, and they run away from the MSOG terminology publically.
I suggest you do some research on the web and find out what the "latter rain" heresies consist of in substance so you can recognize them as you're likely to find them in almost any group, although you're more likely in charasmatic/pentacostal/nondenominational groups. One key is the elevation of "experience and personal prophecy" to a place where it modifies and interprets the written Scripture. This is a base necessity for other beliefs that would be contradicted by Scripture, such as the restoration of the five offices (especially the emphasis on the position of "apostle"). If scripture were given its' proper place in the christians' life then the requirement to be present during Jesus' earthly life to be an apostle would deny the leaders of these groups the ultimate authority over people they seem to want in having people "submit" to them (as opposed to Christ).
The truth is that "Bible-lite" is almost always "heresy-heavy". Sad.
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 10:25:52 PM
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lw9
Posts: 899
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Hi yasou_ray!
The 'prophecy' you posted from IHOP was nothing a person couldn't have gotten from a psychic. Ah... the ever popular 'God's gonna raise you up because you're extra-special and make you prosper' message. As usual, it's a no-details generic rambling that bears no resemblance to Biblical prophecy.
quote:
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
There is a stomping ground for Latter Rain 'prophets' and 'apostles' called the Elijah List. While the Elijah List promotes false prophets and teachers mostly of the very whacked and very dangerous New Apostolic Reformation persuasion, it's a good resource to study firsthand what they are actually claiming and teaching through their 'prophecies' and messages. Not surprisingly, Mike Bickle is there.
Here are a few key points in Mr. Bickles messages on the Elijah List:
- LINK: Announcing Facedown 40. In this message, Bickle affirms false WOF teacher Kenneth Hagin as a man of God and a prophet. The reality is that Kenneth Hagin preaches a false Christ. Hagin rejects the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible through his denial of Christ's atonement on the cross, and claims that Christ spiritually died, was tortured by demons, and atoned for sin in hell. For this message, Bickle teams up with and affirms documented false prophet Dutch Sheets, a leader in the New Apostolic Reformation.
- LINK: The Free Gift of Our Greatness.What Jesus apparently "came to establish for us at the Cross in the atonement" is our greatness. It's a typical Latter Rain theme of lifting man up... way, way up.
From everything I'm seeing of Mike Bickles' associations and theology, it seems that he's now part of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is a Latter Rain offshoot. If I run across anything else, I will let you know.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 12:12:49 AM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
Hope this helps:
Items in red are unbiblical beliefs
Beliefs of the Latter Rain Movement
Considered to be one of today's most dangerous false teachings in the church, the movement's doctrines are taught and supported by a wide range of controversial teachers. They include Rick Joyner, C. Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, Mike Bickle, Bill Hamon, and countless others.
The Latter Rain Revival was characterized by healings, the laying on of hands, emphasis on spiritual gifts, fasting, prayer, prophecy, allegiance to the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11), importance of the Jewish feast of Pentecost and Tabernacles, distrust of denominations, manifestations of the sons of God, and the returning of Jesus Christ in accordance with the outpouring of Gods spirit.
Splitting from the Assemblies of God, the Latter Rain Revival became increasingly anti-denominational (Melton, 418). They considered their beliefs to be a continuation or addition of the pentecostal movements (Melton, 418). Now all the churches have independent and autonomous congregations (Melton, 418)
The Latter Rain movement was Pentecostal in nature, yet it was contrasting the old Pentecostalism. NOLR (New Order of the Latter Rain) was more emotional and vibrant in comparison. Also, NOLR believed that spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands in contrast to "tarrying" for the Holy Spirit as the old Pentecostals did (Melton, 532).
William Branham has occasionaly been referred to as the founder of the Latter Rain revival due to his influential role in the revival's spread. Branham and Oral Roberts encouraged the spread of NOLR with their healing ministry (Melton, 84). Branham was also seen as the prophet (Elijah) of the movement. Franklin Hall was a healing evangelist and his emphasis on fasting and prayer were also instrumental in the development of the Latter Rain revival (Melton, 532).
Stemming from Ephesians 4:11 of the Bible, the Latter Rain followers believe in the restoration of the five-fold ministry. This ministry consists of apostles, prophets, missionaries, evangelists, pastors and teachers with the addition of apostles and prophets being the most controversial (Melton, 418).
The doctrine of Manifest Sons of God holds that "anointed" ones can enter into sonship and hence become divine. The belief that humans can become gods is highly controversial because it blurs the line between creator and created (Melton, 420). Latter Rain supporters think the doctrine of sonship is aligned with Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:45-47 and Romans 8:19) so that "sonship is an actual gaining of the image and likeness of Christ" (Melton, 420).
Joel's Army is another doctrine of the Latter Rain faith. This claims that the Latter Rain advocates must conquer and dominate the world in order for the new millenium and Christ to come .
Another common theme in NOLR is the "new thing" of Isaiah 43:19 and Acts 17:18-21. This belief is similar to gnosticism in that they are always seeking a "new thing" or revelation to escape the material world .
The Latter Rain movement believed it was important to understand the history of their movement. As they saw it, Christianity was slowly disintegrating throughout history and the church was becoming less and less "pristine" (Melton, 418). God began his restoration of the church beginning with Luther, then the process was continued by John Wesley and the Methodists, and then the Pentecostals and now the Latter Rain (Melton, 418).
From the beginning, the NOLR was opposed by the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal Assemblies of God. Later, in the 1980's, it was targeted by the Christian counter-cult organizations due to the Latter Rain doctrine of Manifest Sons of God. This belief claims that humans who believe in the Latter Rain can actually become divine themselves (Melton, 419-420).
The Latter Rain revival was a catalyst for later Pentecostal movements such as the Brownsville/Pensacola Revival and the Toronto Blessing/Laughing Phenomenon. These more recent movements differ from NOLR in that their beliefs are accepted by the Assemblies of God while the Latter Rain doctrines were considered heretical. The beliefs of both Brownsville and the Toronto Blessing are aligned exactly with those of the Latter Rain revival. There is an emphasis on the imparting of spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands and emotion filled "manifestations of gifts of the Holy Spirit." The Brownsville Revival began with a visiting evangelical speaker, Steve Hill, in June 1995.
Latter Rain or Dominion teaching can be summed up this way:
- The Church must be restored and equipped to rule by the five-fold ministries.
- It must come to perfection and complete visible UNITY.
- Out of the purified church will come a spiritual elite corps, a Corporate Christ who possess the
Spirit without measure.
- They will purge the earth of all wickedness and rebellion
- They will judge the apostate Church
- They will redeem all creation, and restore the earth
- They will eventually overcome death itself in a counterfeit of the Rapture
- The Church will thus inherit the earth, and rule over it from the Throne of Christ.
Thanks Sox, but I understand scripture well enough and have an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit enough to come to my own conclusions. I don't listen to second hand gossip on various teachings out there. I've discovered that they get very, very exaggerated and twisted through the many mouths they are passed down through. Kind of like playing the game telephone.
I also don't believe that just because someone was part of something 10 or 12 years ago, doesn't mean they can't change and grow and come to other conclusions about it. I believe that 'love' believes all things good about a person, unless that person tells me themselves that they believe a doctrine that I think is incorrect. Even then, that doesn't make them heretics. It simply means that a non-essential doctrine, or secondary doctrine, is understood differently than how I understand it.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 12:16:47 AM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Hi yasou_ray!
The 'prophecy' you posted from IHOP was nothing a person couldn't have gotten from a psychic. Ah... the ever popular 'God's gonna raise you up because you're extra-special and make you prosper' message. As usual, it's a no-details generic rambling that bears no resemblance to Biblical prophecy.
quote:
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
There is a stomping ground for Latter Rain 'prophets' and 'apostles' called the Elijah List. While the Elijah List promotes false prophets and teachers mostly of the very whacked and very dangerous New Apostolic Reformation persuasion, it's a good resource to study firsthand what they are actually claiming and teaching through their 'prophecies' and messages. Not surprisingly, Mike Bickle is there.
Here are a few key points in Mr. Bickles messages on the Elijah List:
- LINK: Announcing Facedown 40. In this message, Bickle affirms false WOF teacher Kenneth Hagin as a man of God and a prophet. The reality is that Kenneth Hagin preaches a false Christ. Hagin rejects the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible through his denial of Christ's atonement on the cross, and claims that Christ spiritually died, was tortured by demons, and atoned for sin in hell. For this message, Bickle teams up with and affirms documented false prophet Dutch Sheets, a leader in the New Apostolic Reformation.
- LINK: The Free Gift of Our Greatness.What Jesus apparently "came to establish for us at the Cross in the atonement" is our greatness. It's a typical Latter Rain theme of lifting man up... way, way up.
From everything I'm seeing of Mike Bickles' associations and theology, it seems that he's now part of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is a Latter Rain offshoot. If I run across anything else, I will let you know.
Again, all of this stuff is simply second hand hog-wash. I would need to read a book by Mike Bickle where he specifically speaks on these subjects or speak to him personally and ask him exactly where he stands on any of these issues before I could ever dare to judge him or judge his heart. That's completely against the heart of Christ and goes against the law of love to condemn someone when they are not here to defend themselves. It's also very, very, very cowardly. People are very brave when the person they are condemning is not standing right in front of them. But then there are always exceptions to the rule - the inquisitors of the great inquisition had no problem standing in front of the supposed 'heretics' of their time and shouting in their faces and denouncing them all in the guise of "protecting the faith!" All the while the ones being accused remain silent, never defending themselves, entrusting their hearts and lives to Christ. Mike Bickle is just such a one who would be silent and not lift a word to defend himself, just like Jesus did. Nothing is new under the sun I guess.
I wonder which ones you would be if that happened again? Would you be the inquisitors or would you be the meek, loving followers of Jesus led to slaughter? We can only guess by what we see and hear on this forum.....
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/29/2007 12:32:11 AM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 12:53:19 AM
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lw9
Posts: 899
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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SD456:
quote:
Again, all of this stuff is simply second hand hog-wash.
You do understand that the Elijah List is FOR the people they publish, not against?? The Elijah List [and many other pro-Bickle sites] clearly state Mike Bickle as the author and posts his website and his e-mail address. The Elijah List supports Bickle and SELLS his books. If Bickle didn't write these things, don't ya think he would have heard about it by now and complained to one of his booksellers??
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 1:04:57 AM
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stephanos
Posts: 809
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
SD456:
quote:
Again, all of this stuff is simply second hand hog-wash.
You do understand that the Elijah List is FOR the people they publish, not against?? The Elijah List [and many other pro-Bickle sites] clearly state Mike Bickle as the author and posts his website and his e-mail address. The Elijah List supports Bickle and SELLS his books. If Bickle didn't write these things, don't ya think he would have heard about it by now and complained to one of his booksellers??
lw9, now you know that you are speaking logically. You cant do that. Its not fair to everyone else.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 3:52:06 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 162
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
A sincere and credit-worthy p.r. paragraph, well done--however--as you see the "real point" and the results, others see it differently. An inside view may be a view from the bottom. What does it look like at the top? To present a picture of a guy monking away in a prayer closet doesn't cover everything. Is there or is there not an assertion that God is sponsoring or endorsing or leading a "movement" to have people set up physical locations wherein there is continuous prayer? _There_ is something to agree or disagree on. Then you can't, though you seem to indicate the contrary, separate the "prayer" side from the teaching side What the heck? P.R. worthy? I'm actually trying to be brutally honest and give you the rundown of what we do. If what you want is for me to spew all the dirt on IHOP, you will be waiting a seriously long time. Unlike many that I talk to, I don't enjoy decrying people as heretical, dangerous, decieved, wolves-in-sheep's-clothing types. Yes, there is an assertion that God is raising up a movement of people who will make intercession and fasting their full-time occupation..... So? Your local church will tell you that God is raising up people to become pastors and spread the Gospel. Perhaps what you are seeing in my posts is that there is a lack of ire and disrespect for the rest of the church? I think that local churches are a highly valid expression of the body of Christ, and it is highly unfortunate that some think that sitting in a room to pray and worship God as your primary occupation is less than the same.quote:
Did IHOP begin when an "angel" spoke to Bob Jones... No, IHOP began on May 7th, 1999, when we opened the doors of the prayer room. The groundwork for the Harp-and-Bowl model, the prayer room itself, and the stregnth to implement both was layed buring the 25 or so years of nightly prayer meetings in the sanctuary of Metro Christian Fellowship in Kansas City.quote:
....or did Bob Jones "prophesy" it, or was it that Paul Cain looked at the pancake house and prophesied a prayer house? Well, you got me.... both are true.... I guess we really are a bunch of misguided heretics trying to fleece the flock and promote the goals of satan and his false prophets......... come on. If you listen to all of the "Encountering Jesus" cds that Mike made and hear the prophetic words that were fulfilled prior to IHOP, it is staggering. Consider this, Paul Cain did prophecy that there would be a house of prayer in Kansas City.... and guess what.... there is one..... The International House of Prayer. Call it less than coincidence if you like, but the prophecy was true.quote:
If any of those or all of those is true then it's not really leaving the KC prophets behind...it's continuing their debatable prophecies. Once again, I must ask.... why is it so important that we make a 100% clean break with the KCP? Look at what is happening in IHOP itself. You have a group of 500 people who are in Kansas City for no other reason than to pray. Of those 500 people, the average age is somewhere in the 20-24 year old range. These five hundred people are devoting a MAJOR portion of their lives to prayer, fasting, and Bible study. Now, go to a young adults group in one of your local churched and see what you find. This is a group of people that have a passion for God that is unmatched by any other group of people I have seen in a long time. To quote a song one of the worship leaders on the NightWatch wrote, "You can have this whole world, just give me Jesus."quote:
The "doctrines" is how we tell if what is going on is in line with Scripture. Personalities, friendships or personal enjoyment do not determine truth or the will of Pardon the intrusion into you self-justification, but didn't Jesus say something about knowing them "by their fruit"? If this seems to be hard hitting, I do sincerely apologize... however, I haven't mentioned anything about personal enjoyment, relationships, or friendships... I'm saddened that you are willing to write off my words in that way. I am telling you what is going on, as a staff member, and what it looks like through my eyes. Feel free to criticize me or my position if you must, but as someone who is here watching what is going on, please, PLEASE don't make the mistake of assuming I have forgone my mental or scriptural capacities.
quote:
This is from an obscure website
http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000000381
If you click on Blueprint Prophecy this is what you get. Your point is? The Five Fold ministry is another topic for another time (although I'm sure I wouldn't like the "consensus" decision there either). Now, "latter rain", believe it or not, is actually a Biblical term (Joel 2:23, Zechariah 10:1, and James 5:7). "Latter Rain" is a term that referred to the last rains before harvest that were thought to be a sign of God's favor and blessing on their harvest. Correct or not, the term is no being used within the prophetic community to mean God's blessing on the church in the last days (which we have been in since Pentencost). The answer to this is found in Joel 2 "23 Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the LORD your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, And He will cause the rain to come down for you-The former rain, And the latter rain in the first month.
24 The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.
25 "So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, The crawling locust, The consuming locust, And the chewing locust, My great army which I sent among you.
26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, And praise the name of the LORD your God, Who has dealt wondrously with you; And My people shall never be put to shame.
27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame.
28 ¶ "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD." The focus really being verses 28-31, the acutal term "latter rain" is being used to simply convey the idea of God pouring out His spirit on all flesh. The blueprint prophecy is referring to IHOP, but it is also referring to the larger global prayer movement... so again I must ask, your point was?quote:
Dear IHOPers,
Why is it recommended that when studying your Bible that you use commentaries and not concordances? Because it gives you an idea of what several professional (hopefully Biblical) minds believe about the scriptures. Commentators have spent years studying the passages they comment on, meaning that they hopefully have some amount of revelation on that particular verse. To be noted, we are not discouraged to use concordences, but we are ENcouraged to use commentaries as well.quote:
YOU CAN PROPHESY!!!!!!! Look no further, IHOP teaches you how.
Question: Is not a person who prophesies (sp) a Prophet Grammatically, yes... Actuality, no. 1st Corinthians 14:1-5..... "1 ¶ Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification."
A Prophet (in Biblical terms, anyway) is one who hears the "in season" Word of the Lord for Nations and the Church. One who prophesies is someone who comes up to you in a prayer line and says "I just feel like God wanted me to tell you......."quote:
Actually I was wondering who gave the prophecy.? Do you know?
And I only highlighted those sections because I keep hearing denials of Latter Rain being part of IHOP.
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches I do not know off the top of my head, but I can find out. Based on the accuracy of the prophesy thus far (.... the 300+ Full Time staff members are living on missionary support and work-scholarships), it doesn't really seem to matter. As I said earlier, the term latter rain is being used as a simplification of the pouring out of the Spirit on "all flesh" (Joel 2:28,29). The actual doctrine of the Latter Rain movement has several conflicts with the actual doctrines of the IHOP world.quote:
, and the returning of Jesus Christ in accordance with the outpouring of Gods spirit. ..... I'm quite interested to hear your justification for marking this in red.... especially since Jesus is returning, and the millenial kingdom will follow that event.... and squaring it up with Joel 2's "pouring out of the spirit on ALL flesh. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, and on my menservants and on my maidservants I will pour out my spirit in those days." The setting for Joel 2 is the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord... the day we casually refer to as Armageddon. Seems somewhat biblical to me.quote:
Also, NOLR believed that spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands in contrast to "tarrying" for the Holy Spirit as the old Pentecostals did (Melton, Again, I submit scripture for your reading pleasure....." Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
1Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
2Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
Hebrews 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."quote:
The doctrine of Manifest Sons of God holds that "anointed" ones can enter into sonship and hence become divine. The belief that humans can become gods is highly controversial because it blurs the line between creator and created (Melton, 420). Latter Rain supporters think the doctrine of sonship is aligned with Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:45-47 and Romans 8:19) so that "sonship is an actual gaining of the image and likeness of Christ" (Melton, 420).
Joel's Army is another doctrine of the Latter Rain faith. This claims that the Latter Rain advocates must conquer and dominate the world in order for the new millenium and Christ to come .
Another common theme in NOLR is the "new thing" of Isaiah 43:19 and Acts 17:18-21. This belief is similar to gnosticism in that they are always seeking a "new thing" or revelation to escape the material world . And, need I mention, that these are not the beliefs of IHOP. In fact, this is where any similarity between the Latter Rain movement and the International House of Prayer stop. IHOP has never taught that humans have the capability to become divine, that there will be a hostile takeover of the world by Christians prior to Christ's return, and we are not attempting to escape the physical world. So, other than the use of a single source (according to your own footnotes, anyway), I won't complain too much about your post BECAUSE IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THE INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF PRAYER.quote:
If scripture were given its' proper place in the christians' life then the requirement to be present during Jesus' earthly life to be an apostle would deny the leaders of these groups the ultimate authority over people they seem to want in having people "submit" to them (as opposed to Christ So that is what all of this is about....... you are pointing to the selection of Matthias as the qualifcation of being an Apostle...... problem.... they selected Matthias to replace Judas because he was with them the entire time Jesus preached...... so wouldn't that also exclude Paul? He himself said that he was "least of the apostles" and "one born out of due time". Paul considered himself an apostle, so I guess the selection of Matthias isn't the universal rules for selecting apostles....quote:
LINK: Announcing Facedown 40. In this message, Bickle affirms false WOF teacher Kenneth Hagin as a man of God and a prophet. The reality is that Kenneth Hagin preaches a false Christ. Hagin rejects the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible through his denial of Christ's atonement on the cross, and claims that Christ spiritually died, was tortured by demons, and atoned for sin in hell. For this message, Bickle teams up with and affirms documented false prophet Dutch Sheets, a leader in the New Apostolic Reformation. Correction.... That article says that Hagin declared prophetically..... not that the man was a prophet. I find it interesting that you didn't really argue with anything inside of the column, but rather felt more inclined to attack Kenneth Hagin (who gets a passing mention at best) and Dutch Sheets (who collaborated with Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and Francis Frangipane). To me, this is not seeing the forrest because of the trees. To be sure, picking apart minutia rather than actually attacking the structure. In an actual debate, that would be called "surrender of the point".quote:
LINK: The Free Gift of Our Greatness.What Jesus apparently "came to establish for us at the Cross in the atonement" is our greatness. It's a typical Latter Rain theme of lifting man up... way, way Once again, you are missing the point. The point is not the greatness of man, but rather is the identity of the Believer that is found in Christ alone. No man is greater than Jesus, or even comes close, but God has crowned us with glory and honor (Hebrews 2). This article is not the glorification of man, but rather is the recognition of what God has actually done.
God is Love... 1st John 4 tells us that (twice)... But God only tells one thing other than Himself that He loves it..... and that is the human race. Imagine it... the infinite God of the universe, the head honcho, the guy holding all the chips, has set His infinite love and desire on ONE thing.... mankind. Out of all the stars, the angels, the planets, the demons, Satan, whatever aliens there might or might not be, God has chose humanity as the greatest outside source of His pleasure and object of his affection. This does not contradict the Bible in any way. Once again, we miss the point because we didn't read it.
And that's the bottom line........ cause "Stone Cold" said so! (pardon my pop-culture referrence)
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 11:14:10 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Yes, there is an assertion that God is raising up a movement of people who will make intercession and fasting their full-time occupation..... So?
Thank you for your responses. As I was pointing out, this is debatable. And it still doesn't cover everything. As you seem to believe intercessory prayer and fasting is merely a Biblical expression...follow the flow of occurrences here. Discredited KC Prophets prophesy IHOP...their associate Mr. Bickle follows through...young Christians participate and enjoy what they're doing--which is by no means proof that it is ordained by God...and what's next? By allowing themselves to believe that God is doing the first thing and the next thing they're all getting on the same page for whatever is being taught--and "prophesied" to come next. Let's be honest and say what it is--either God is doing this or He is not.
What is the grip that the Third Wave/New Apostolic and related teachings has on people that the slightest hint of disagreement incites them to fury so often? I think it is because it's a house built on the sand of dubious sources.
quote:
....or did Bob Jones "prophesy" it, or was it that Paul Cain looked at the pancake house and prophesied a prayer house?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Well, you got me.... both are true....
The above-mentioned discredited KC Prophets. When these "prophets" have appeared on the cover a Christian magazine as such, and put themselves forth as being those who hear from God and as such should be listened to, how can anyone object to their failures being brought up?
quote:
If any of those or all of those is true then it's not really leaving the KC prophets behind...it's continuing their debatable prophecies.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Once again, I must ask.... why is it so important that we make a 100% clean break with the KCP?
Probably because of the reasons that, to quote an IHOP staffer, that "Mike and several others have distanced themselves from the KCP".
You can't have it both ways.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I would love for someone to tell me what Mike's big error or evil sin are. Everytime I ask, all I get is people pointing back to the Kansas City Prophets thing (even though Mike says he is no prophet), or the doctrinal errors of the Mystics (which errors Mike doesn't promote anyway). Mike would tell you the same thing he tells anybody about reading a theology book... read it with a grain of salt. Considering that Mike and several others have distanced themselves from the KCP, I think it is really just a vain repetition to keep dragging it up.
There's the quote from page one of this thread. Fulfilling the KCP prophecies, yet distancing, yet not making a clean break, but no one should associate IHOP with KCP. Seems mighty sandy to me.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 12:09:29 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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After reading Adam's latest response to those who have presented page after page of information that should, at the very least, cause him to pause and question his leader's teaching, he continues to blindly defend him at every turn. My heart grows heavy as I see before me living proof of just how deceived one can become under the spell of a false teacher. This is devastating because I recognize that this teacher has been successful in his endoctrination of his follower(s) and to continue to present information to open his eyes is likely futile.
I leave this thread with one final warning, repeating this Scripture because I know that God's Word is a double edged sword that can remove the scales from one's eyes. He who has ears let him hear:
"1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber." -II Peter 2
Adam, I pray "The Lord will bless you and keep you; The Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; 26 The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace."...and lead you to the Truth.
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/29/2007 5:59:41 PM
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SD456
Posts: 387
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Adam
Correction.... That article says that Hagin declared prophetically..... not that the man was a prophet. I find it interesting that you didn't really argue with anything inside of the column, but rather felt more inclined to attack Kenneth Hagin (who gets a passing mention at best) and Dutch Sheets (who collaborated with Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and Francis Frangipane). To me, this is not seeing the forrest because of the trees. To be sure, picking apart minutia rather than actually attacking the structure. In an actual debate, that would be called "surrender of the point".
OOoh! 1 point for Adam! Or maybe that's at least 5 points since he has thus far wisely, and with correct information, debated each of the grievances that said 'heretic-hunters' have brought up.
quote:
God is Love... 1st John 4 tells us that (twice)... But God only tells one thing other than Himself that He loves it..... and that is the human race. Imagine it... the infinite God of the universe, the head honcho, the guy holding all the chips, has set His infinite love and desire on ONE thing.... mankind. Out of all the stars, the angels, the planets, the demons, Satan, whatever aliens there might or might not be, God has chose humanity as the greatest outside source of His pleasure and object of his affection. This does not contradict the Bible in any way. Once again, we miss the point because we didn't read it.
I'm not sure if they get that 'love' concept on these forums. I think, Adam, they have a very hard time wrapping their minds around it. Works, religion, the law, obedience, sinners, God's wrath - they get these things real good, but I'm not too sure about the 'love' thing.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/29/2007 6:07:25 PM >
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