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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 5:14:28 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat
Your church description is..."a company of dreamers, pursuing the dream of His Kingdom and will, on earth as it is in heaven. We are a community of believers on a journey discovering the heart of God for His Church; a gathering of friends that have decided that Worship is our priority and Living in Community is our privilege. We are a people called to transform the culture around us, not reflect it; destined to determine its history, not display it."
And which part of this do you believe contradicts scripture? Perhaps pursuing God's will on earth as it is in heaven? Or the mention that we are on a journey? Or that we are discovering God's heart? Is worshipping God not to be a priority? And are we not to transform our culture? It's interesting that this is the text you've chosen to somehow 'prove' that a certain church is off course.
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. Though it is off the topic, I know that NO church is safe from heretic-hunters. (don't want to be rude here, but it's amusing how quickly you jump from attacking one church to attacking another church.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat
I also see that your leader calls himself a Prophet and "has written several books, Approaching the Heart of Prophecy, Prophecy and Responsibility, A Divine Confrontation... Birth Pangs of the New Church and Developing Your Prophetic Gifting, and eight interactive journals, Beholding and Becoming, Towards a Powerful Inner Life, The Language of Promise, The Nature of God, Hiddenness and Manifestation, Crafted Prayer, God's Keeping Power, and Living in Dependency and Wonder."
Actually Graham isn't the leader, he's simply a minister on staff. And I love him to pieces. You should read some of his books that you've carefully listed. Thank you for that. They will inspire you to love Jesus with a pure child-like devotion. They would definately be healthier material than what you read on these forums (and much truer, also)  Graham loves the Father with more of a child-like trust and dependency than I've ever heard anyone teach. Jesus really loves this boy of His very, VERY much. I only strive to attain the kind of intimacy that he has with our Lord.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/27/2007 5:22:45 PM >
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 5:24:25 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Thanks Adam for taking the time to post your knowledge and experiences. I still have many doubts and hesitations about IHOP, but you have indeed calmed some fears. I still question, or rather concerns, on things like the aforementioned children's prophecy focus, and of course a school with out accreditation; but by and large while I do not agree with many things about the church, I can honestly say I no longer consider it (not sure if I truly ever did) a extreme "out" there sect. Honestly a lot of my concerns probably are rooted from how rudely I was treated by a AG church, and while I know IHOP and AG are not related, the whole experience I had with that previous church has put me off of the charismatic movement as a whole. Plus add the aforementioned feelings of uneasiness that I do believe is a gift from God for me, and well thats where it lies. Thanks again for sharing and take heart that you have at least one less anti-IHOP'er. Again not that I think I WAS, I just has questions and concerns.
Thanks, Stephanos, for your honesty. I understand how a bad church experience can make it difficult to receive things that might look the same. I've had those experiences myself. 
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 2:58:04 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1162
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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Wow this thread is moving fast.... Forgive me for the long posts, but I'm only on once every two days or so...quote:
"...After the death of Branham in the early fifties and the demise of the Latter Rain movement, Cain apparently went into self-imposed exile for years. In recent years he reappeared, linking himself to the Kansas City prophets with Mike Bickle and Bob Jones as the leading resident prophets. Among these self-designated prophets, Cain was given a special place of recognition because of his nearly always-accurate clairvoyant ability to see things that no one else could." As I said, MIKE does not identify HIMSELF as a prophet. I can't account for accusations or lables being placed by other websites. Mike has never called himself a prophet.. from the pulpit during my internship he literally said "All should desire to prophesy, but not all, myself included, are prophets." That is a direct contradiction from the man's own mouth to any accusation or citation you can drag up.quote:
Defnition of MSOG:
- "IMMORTALIZATION" (a state of perfection or sinlessness)
- "RESTORATION" of the offices of "APOSTLES AND PROPHETS," who are not to be questioned in any way.
- Absolute Authoritarianism - It is imperative that the people do not judge teachers, regardless of doctrine.
- "MANIFEST SONS OF GOD" - Attainment of "godhood."
- Sonship comes through "HIGHER REVELATION"
- Extreme fear and guilt for those who do not move forward to perfection in order that the Kingdom of God be established. Compare that to what the Bible and IHOP actually teach. There will be a generation that does not die (1st Corinthians 15 is pretty clear on that one). IHOP teaches that Christians shouldn't be judging each other the way they are (per Matthew 5-7... otherwise known as the Sermon on the Mount). Mike and other teachers at IHOP-KC do not believe under any circumstances or forms that men will achieve Godhood. The only man to be God is Jesus Christ himself. What fear and guilt? What is Mike's message about the millenium? Be faithful, and God will reward your faithfulness (Jesus himself told several parables with the same meaning). I'm telling you this as someone who isn't searching frantically for websites accusing the man of being one thing or another, but I am telling you this from having sat in more than several of his meetings. What does this mean practically? It means that I can be a source for other people who are researching the same topic......... oh yeah, but I forget that I'm "on the inside" so I "must be tainted"....quote:
Wow, Sox. That's some scary stuff. It sounds a little like some of the stuff some of the leaders in my old church thought of themselves. The regular people often just smiled at that. Covaan, you are quite right that that is disturbing... however, it is not a doctrine ascribed to by the International House of Prayer. So, feel free to be shocked, but don't make the mistake of tying IHOP-KC to it.quote:
Here is some of what I have found so far:
There was one speaker who was bragging that they were “teaching 6 y/o children how to have the gift of Prophesy.” (YOU CANNOT TEACH A GIFT.) Actually that is a misquote... Lenny LaGuardia was actually saying that they are teaching 6 year olds how to USE the gift of prophecy (the man makes roughly the same speech at every conference).quote:
Mike Bickle teaches that the Kingdom is already here. (Jehovah’s Witness. I have yet to see mention of a literal Heaven. It’s all about the 1000 year reign here on earth.) This is a misuderstanding of IHOP's endtimes message. Mike preaches that the idea of the endtimes is "Now, but not yet". So, the kingdom is here spiritually in that God heals people, and pours out the spirit as he sees fit, but there is the physical kingdom still to come at the end of the Tribulation (please remember that I mentioned this when I said that IHOP's eschatology was post-trib rapture, pre-mil return of Christ). So, is the kingdom here now? Yes and no. The Kingdom of God exists spiritually within the church, but the Physical Kingdom of the New Jerusalem is still to come.quote:
At Jesus’s return, He will NOT appear across the earth simultaneously. Instead, His return will be a global procession that will take time. Remember, Jesus is a man and will be a man forever. He is also God, but he took on flesh, and still had the same when he ascended to Heaven. That is what we call the mystery of the Hypostatic Union. It breaks all kinds of rules to have God take on flesh, live 33 years in Human time, and then DIE. The thing that Mike takes is that "every eye will see Him", and if he is still 100% God and 100% man, then there must be some legnth of time involved for every eye to see Him. Simple enough.quote:
God will not release His authority without their night and day prayer room. Not true in the slightest. IHOP-KC is part of a prayer movement. We are not isolated, unique, the first, or the last to be in the prayer movement. Need I remind anyone of the 24/7 movement in the late 90's? I can think of 6 other full-time houses of Prayer in the United States alone, not to mention Prayer Mountain in South Korea and a host of other prayer ministries in the earth. IHOP does not believe itself to hold all the chips, but merely to be a single cog in a rather large gear. Now, we do believe that God is raising up the prayer movement to partner with His spirit to bring forth revival and prepare the earth for the return of Christ (by preaching the gospel, healing the sick, feeding the poor, what have you...)quote:
They believe Jesus is God incarnated. But, they also believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities. This is not a contradiction, rather, this is trinitarian doctrine. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three seperate entities, but are also one identity. IHOP is not polytheistic or Unitarian... rather, we believe in the Trinity, that Jesus is just as much "God" and the Holy Spirit. All three are equal, and the three are one. Take a look at 1st John 5 to see the apostle's take on it.quote:
They do seem to be targeting the young people. It does seem to be nothing short of intellectual brain-washing. IHOP isn't actually targeting anyone. Rather, we are attracting a certain crowd. Big deal, churches do the same. We don't come down on certain churches for having a predominantly black congregation. We don't come down on certain churches for having congregations that are mostly older people. Better yet, we don't come down on boxing for attracting mostly Male viewers. IHOP has a very "matter-of-fact" attitude about itself, and I prefer it that way. If you spend much time here, you will hear several times that IHOP is part of a larger movement. If someone would rather go to IHOP-Atlanta (no actual affiliation), Zadok House of Prayer (in Charlotte), Justice House of Prayer (in D.C.), the Prayer Furnace (in Chicago), IHOP-Cleveland (same as Atlanta), then it's fine. The point is not growing the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (though I can guarantee that will happen), the point is not sucking people dry of their money, the point is getting Christians to pray. If that happens, then we have succeeded. Mike has said many times, "even if all of the staff members leave IHOP and go to other stuff, I will still be here in Kansas City, because it is where God has called me to be and to pray."quote:
My research does continue, my 20 y/o son wants to go to KC and do their internship. Yes, it is personal. Pray for my research, for me and for my son. I will be spreading the word. We need to unveil this cult. Allow me to say, sir, that I turn 20 next month. I am one that is your son's age, I have been through both tracks of the NightWatch internship. As a result of having been in said internship, I read my Bible in six weeks of my own volition... rather than go out partying with co-workers, I stay awake and pray all night six nights a week. I'm growing in living the Sermon on the Mount, I'm learning more about eschatology, and I'm developing my talents for writing, drawing, and sound design. If that isn't positive fruit considering the condition of most 18-25 year olds today, then nothing is. Judge by the fruit, my friend.
quote:
Another great article on that same page is 'The Harp and Bowl - Some questions' which might be very useful since it explores the whole premise behind IHOP's 24-hour intercessory prayer warfare and addresses IHOP specifically. Anyway, I hope this helps. I looked at the link...... I was unimpressed. The idea of the harp and bowl model is that it makes prayer easier, more enjoyable, and gives the hope for endurance in the place of intercession. It is the combining of skilled musicianship and prayer that makes prayer easier. Someone is praying while the band is playing a relatively simple chord progression, then the singers sing back what the intercessor prayed. It isn't more anointed then just praying by yourself, but it is more corporate, which means more people are praying for the same thing. It doesn't merit additional favor with God, it doesn't make your prayers more "weighty", but it is a way to (A) give structure to a prayer meeting (B) keep the whole room engaged with the prayer and (C) make it possible to pray for 20+ years without running through your prayer list every 3 minutes. Harp-and-Bowl is merely a model of running a prayer meeting... just like small groups, bible studies, and church meetings themselves.quote:
I still question, or rather concerns, on things like the aforementioned children's prophecy focus, and of course a school with out accreditation; but by and large while I do not agree with many things about the church, I can honestly say I no longer consider it (not sure if I truly ever did) a extreme "out" there sect. Understood, and I appreciate the affirmation. It is difficult to warm up to something if you think or thought at some time it wasn't/isn't right. My understanding of the accreditation process is that it isn't about proving the quality of your material as much as it is proving how you are teaching your material. Last time I checked (a couple months ago) it is just a matter of FSM teaching enough credit class hours a semester and they should get their accreditation. The real point of IHOP is not our doctrine, our teachers, our Bible School, or anything else. The beating heart of the International House of Prayer is the Prayer Room itself. If you can pray and you're praying to the God of the Bible, you are more than welcome to participate at IHOP. And other than music preferences, there isn't really much to argue with at the heart of it. The teachings, internships, church services, and Bible school are all peripherals to the central ministry which is the prayer room.quote:
Honestly a lot of my concerns probably are rooted from how rudely I was treated by a AG church, and while I know IHOP and AG are not related, the whole experience I had with that previous church has put me off of the charismatic movement as a whole. Plus add the aforementioned feelings of uneasiness that I do believe is a gift from God for me, and well thats where it lies. Thanks again for sharing and take heart that you have at least one less anti-IHOP'er. Again not that I think I WAS, I just has questions and concerns. Understandable, and I greatly appreciate your honesty on this topic. IHOP kind of breaks molds in that we aren't geared to be "non-denominational" (which is, in and of itself, a denomination), but rather, to be "inter-denominational". I guess really what it comes down to, is that prayer is supposed to be universal for the Church, and that is what our main ministry is... but it is easy to get hung up in the doctrines at times... Hopefully the church at large (IHOP included) can learn to be meeker.... fast.quote:
Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. Mike Bickle was and until he denounces this movement, will always be associated with the Latter Rain/Kingdom Now/MSOG movement. Last I checked, Mike was a man capable of thinking for himself.... and, as explained earlier, has much to say against Latter Rain doctrine..... I won't bring it up again.... not in this post anyway.quote:
and his cohorts ......... well that's less than flattering...........
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 11:24:52 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The real point of IHOP is not our doctrine, our teachers, our Bible School, or anything else. The beating heart of the International House of Prayer is the Prayer Room itself. If you can pray and you're praying to the God of the Bible, you are more than welcome to participate at IHOP. And other than music preferences, there isn't really much to argue with at the heart of it. The teachings, internships, church services, and Bible school are all peripherals to the central ministry which is the prayer room
A sincere and credit-worthy p.r. paragraph, well done--however--as you see the "real point" and the results, others see it differently. An inside view may be a view from the bottom. What does it look like at the top? To present a picture of a guy monking away in a prayer closet doesn't cover everything. Is there or is there not an assertion that God is sponsoring or endorsing or leading a "movement" to have people set up physical locations wherein there is continuous prayer? _There_ is something to agree or disagree on. Then you can't, though you seem to indicate the contrary, separate the "prayer" side from the teaching side.
Did IHOP begin when an "angel" spoke to Bob Jones, or did Bob Jones "prophesy" it, or was it that Paul Cain looked at the pancake house and prophesied a prayer house? If any of those or all of those is true then it's not really leaving the KC prophets behind...it's continuing their debatable prophecies.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I guess really what it comes down to, is that prayer is supposed to be universal for the Church, and that is what our main ministry is... but it is easy to get hung up in the doctrines at times...
Adam
The "doctrines" is how we tell if what is going on is in line with Scripture. Personalities, friendships or personal enjoyment do not determine truth or the will of God.
Have a nice day, or night, brother.
--wintery.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 11:46:39 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fuquote:
rGod
As I said, MIKE does not identify HIMSELF as a prophet. I can't account for accusations or lables being placed by other websites. Mike has never called himself a prophet.. from the pulpit during my internship he literally said "All should desire to prophesy, but not all, myself included, are prophets." That is a direct contradiction from the man's own mouth to any accusation or citation you can drag up.
Thank you, FurGod! It's good to hear what the truth is that Mike Bickle ACTUALLY speaks out of his mouth rather than the silly stuff that people drag out of obscure websites.
Your answers are very informative (not to mention first hand, which is VERY refreshing)...love reading your posts! Wow, I think the one thing that stands out to me on this post more than any other is how a couple people on this site have pulled out ridiculous accusations about IHOP, completely out of context, and how quickly others on this site believe those accusations and say, "gosh, that's scary, these guys are definately people we should stay away from."
Everyone of your refutes were done with wisdom and blew those false accusations out of the water, not to mention showed how they were scripturally off base with their accusations. And it shed light on how people are getting from point A to B in showing how others are 'heretics' in their eyes by making statements that are completely out of context and giving their OWN meaning to a statement contrary to its original intent.
Eye opening.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/28/2007 12:09:27 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:11:24 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
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This is from an obscure website
http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000000381
If you click on Blueprint Prophecy this is what you get.
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
(edited) March 26, 1984
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
God shall confirm in your spirit; and do not proceed until He does. Upon the
confirmation you should begin to act immediately to take the bride to the city; to
the city of Kansas City, rather than having the city come to Him.
Therefore there should be another…on the north side and on the east side and on
the west side, even as it is on the south side. Therefore there shall be four…. I
have shown you My grace. My grace is sufficient. My grace is Me in you and in
this shall be the 5-fold ministry.In days past, I have said…You are a Garden Center…of My choice says the Lord.
In My Garden Center…I shall raise up…plants of renown… it shall be known, and
the ways shall be renown. I will bring and place...those that will be the caretakers
of My (Garden Center…). You shall be a dresser of My vineyard, says the Lord,
and the vineyard shall be these people that I shall bring unto you and out of you.
Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said
there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall
raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters. They shall be known
and renowned. Even as the children of the renowned – shall they be. These
children shall flow out of…My Spirit. They shall be spiritual children and they
shall inhabit the uttermost parts of the earth. They shall inhabit the place that I
have called for you to settle and to raise up other ministries and to send out.
You shall set in order…as I call the signals—you shall only be acting as I send in
the signals to you. As I give you the word of My messengers, you shall hear and it
shall be confirmed as a truth in your heart and you shall act upon it.
Upon the acting of this, I will place within you and within your hands the 5-fold
ministry. The ministry shall flow and rotate...You shall set in as I will call and
place in your hands to anoint with the Holy Oil - the significance of My acceptance
of those whom I shall confirm by My Holy Spirit….that I would…prepare for Me
a bride in this area. The people shall flow then into the tabernacles of habitation.
They shall flow from the North, the East, the South and the West. They shall come
and they shall be dandled by their sides… You shall be ministers of light and
ministers of truth of Me, says the Lord. Even this shall be a people that shall be
known of Me and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. Their
responsibility lies within Me and their safety lies within drawing close together.
Yes, I would have them draw real close together. I say unto you again, that their
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
2
safety lies in drawing real close together. There shall be unity of the Spirit and of
the doctrine. Your doctrine shall be My doctrine - byMy Spirit.
I will prepare a place for My people. You shall go forth and lead My people to a
place of habitation. I will show you and I will guide you. I will be your purse
bearer. I will hand the checks and the money as the time is prepared for this.
There shall be a time and a season and a place for My people to go. Even as I shall
call them forth before the cities become desolate. You shall raise up…other
cities that shall be the permanent place. There shall be schools of ministry. They
shall flow out of the city into the country--into the country, into the City of
Habitation; says the Lord.
This load shall be too heavy for you. You shall not be able to bear the burden
alone. I shall raise up helpmates, yes, even many help-mates both male and
female. I will set them and call them to stand by your side. You shall go forth and
lead a people even as Moses led a people and there shall be those that shall lift up
your hands. You shall consecrate this people…and assign and delegate. I would
have you to delegate the authority, duty, and responsibility, because you cannot
carry this load yourself. The burden is too heavy and the journey is too far.
I will send wise men even as I sent wise men to behold My Son's birth, so shall I
send wise men to teach you, help you, guide, you and to be a strength and a source
of supply to you. I shall be your purse bearer. I shall raise up ministers of
finance in this area. To those that will hear My voice, yield, become obedient and
truly do as My word says by setting the Kingdom first in their heart - I shall bless
them. I shall cause them to prosper and they will be prospering because it is. They
will remember and know that of a truth that it is their Lord and their God that
gives them power to get wealth (Deut. 8:18). They shall prosper when there is
no prosperity and bear fruit when others are barren. Your land and your habitation
shall be a place of a forerunner - you shall go before hand. Even as I sent Joseph
before hand, so shall you go before....you shall send forth the Joseph out of My
bride and My congregation to prepare--even to make ready a time and a place that I
shall choose, it shall be of My choosing and of My calling, says the Lord.
I shall visit you. There shall be many that shall raise up out of you and you shall be
known in your ministries. From out of you, shall come forth the 5-fold ministry.
This ministry shall be known and established…I shall move quickly. I will do a
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
3
quick work in teaching and in bringing up these people that must be brought up.
Yes, this must be a “do-work,” and a new work. As I open My hand--even out of
the clouds, even as I have shown you and I shall show you that - as My hand opens
and pulsates so shall the children grow mightily and quickly.
I shall bring them up, teach them and lead them by the right way that they might go
and prepare a City for Habitation - they will plant their vineyards and sow their
fields. Their cattle shall give their increase, says the Lord. For even as I have sent
My messengers and many have heard the voice…I have, shot the arrow of My
deliverance for My people. The arrow is the flaming arrow of My deliverance of
My gospel and of My power.
The Out-Pouring of the Latter Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city.It shall be noised abroad even world-wide. They will stand in awe and will return
unto the Holy reverence of My Name and of My people. They shall flourish. The
way of My teachings shall be by My Spirit and MyWord. I will do a new thing.
I will visit them in the night season with dreams and visions as I have said in My
Word. I will even send My angels. I will take people in the Spirit and catch
them away in the Spirit…it shall be by Me and I shall teach them in new ways.
My Word shall not return unto me void but that thing which I have said is absolute,
My Word is absolute. My Word is sovereign. My Word is established. My Word
shall be. If there be those that are stubborn, rebellious and obstinate, I shall
remove the Royal Diadem and the Crown of Glory and I shall give it to another,
says the Lord. This is the day of My visitation unto you. I shall call the recording
angels of Heaven and earth to record to you, this day that it is sealed upon you and
it cannot be removed, in Jesus' mighty name.
For you shall not build unto Me or unto yourself buildings of places to in-gather.
You shall continue with the plan as I have given you in the beginning. For it is My
plan. It shall be by My design, and shall not be by groping as in the dark - for My
people that have been sitting in the valley and shadow of darkness have seen the
light.
Even as Paul had seen the light, but his fellow-laborers saw not the light, but he
became the reflection of that light even as John bore witness of that light. For it is
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
4
given unto you, to know and to see the Just One (Acts 22:12-14). For I have many
people that must yet come to the light. My light is understanding.
For out of the center of the Hub – it shall grow forth from the House of Prayer.
For I have said My House shall be called a "House of Prayer". For this is of Me.
The fifth shall be My grace. For out of My grace shall flow forth grace and favor
to all that are willing and obedient. For have I not said the first shall be last and
the last shall be first. Thus it shall be as the fifth place of ministry is to be readied-
-then it shall be built by My design.
For into this place shall flow the outreach ministries and from these in-gathering
meetings shall flow the fullness of Christ…the workings of the fullness of the gifts
of the Holy Ghost. For when you have the nine gifts come together, then shall be
fulfilled the scripture, “these works and even greater works shall you do.”
There are the many that shall be raised up at the appointed time for the world to
see. This is a part of the ministry of the End-Time Church. For even as I have
called John to make ready a people for the Lord, even so this will…bear the
forerunner spirit that was upon John. This shall be a spirit of preparation and of
preparedness, for this is the separation work. For I have called for My people to
come out and be separate--even unto Me. For I will not have a piece of a people:
but it shall be all or none. For, I place in your hands the final decision and you
shall go forth by faith. Faith is by My grace and in My grace is My tolerance and
contingency for flesh.
For the government shall be by the voice of twelve. For disciples shall be sent
out... They shall go as servants into the out-of-the-way places to compel them to
come in to My House that it may be full. For this shall move to the outer borders
of the city for the final phases of the building of My "House of Prayer".
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:20:32 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
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Dear IHOPers,
Why is it recommended that when studying your Bible that you use commentaries and not concordances?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:26:25 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wintery
Is there or is there not an assertion that God is sponsoring or endorsing or leading a "movement" to have people set up physical locations wherein there is continuous prayer?
Wintery, if you don't believe that God has in the past, does now, and will in the future command people to start things that are important to Him then you would have to forget the past 2000 years of christian history.
During the reformation God commanded Count Zinzendorf to start a prayer community on his property. He did just that. People from many denominations joined him and they prayed around the clock for 100 years. They sent out hundreds of missionaries from that base.
This is no different. God is commanding people all over the earth today to start up 24/7 prayer places. There are about 6 in England that I know of that do this for a week at a time and move the venue around to different locations. In fact it was the first place I'd learned of something like this. And that was years ago. God is strategically setting HIS church up for these end-times and prayer is very, very important to what is happening right now. Mike Bickle is fully capable of obeying God and he doesn't need to answer to people about what he believes Jesus is commanding him to do. The fruit of it will show itself and has shown itself already in all the awesome young people who are learning to pray and learning to grow their self-discipline to be in one place for hours at a time seeking God. That takes a lot of self discipline that most people don't have. I commend Mike Bickle for his obedience to our Lord.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:34:38 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yasou_ray
This is from an obscure website
http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000000381
If you click on Blueprint Prophecy this is what you get.
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
(edited) March 26, 1984
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
God shall confirm in your spirit; and do not proceed until He does. Upon the
confirmation you should begin to act immediately to take the bride to the city; to
the city of Kansas City, rather than having the city come to Him.
Therefore there should be another…on the north side and on the east side and on
the west side, even as it is on the south side. Therefore there shall be four…. I
have shown you My grace. My grace is sufficient. My grace is Me in you and in
this shall be the 5-fold ministry.In days past, I have said…You are a Garden Center…of My choice says the Lord.
In My Garden Center…I shall raise up…plants of renown… it shall be known, and
the ways shall be renown. I will bring and place...those that will be the caretakers
of My (Garden Center…). You shall be a dresser of My vineyard, says the Lord,
and the vineyard shall be these people that I shall bring unto you and out of you.
Even out of the loins of the blood line of the flesh of Abraham--even as I said
there would be many seeds and many nations, kindred, and tongues… I shall
raise up and there shall flow forth many sons and daughters. They shall be known
and renowned. Even as the children of the renowned – shall they be. These
children shall flow out of…My Spirit. They shall be spiritual children and they
shall inhabit the uttermost parts of the earth. They shall inhabit the place that I
have called for you to settle and to raise up other ministries and to send out.
You shall set in order…as I call the signals—you shall only be acting as I send in
the signals to you. As I give you the word of My messengers, you shall hear and it
shall be confirmed as a truth in your heart and you shall act upon it.
Upon the acting of this, I will place within you and within your hands the 5-fold
ministry. The ministry shall flow and rotate...You shall set in as I will call and
place in your hands to anoint with the Holy Oil - the significance of My acceptance
of those whom I shall confirm by My Holy Spirit….that I would…prepare for Me
a bride in this area. The people shall flow then into the tabernacles of habitation.
They shall flow from the North, the East, the South and the West. They shall come
and they shall be dandled by their sides… You shall be ministers of light and
ministers of truth of Me, says the Lord. Even this shall be a people that shall be
known of Me and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. Their
responsibility lies within Me and their safety lies within drawing close together.
Yes, I would have them draw real close together. I say unto you again, that their
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
2
safety lies in drawing real close together. There shall be unity of the Spirit and of
the doctrine. Your doctrine shall be My doctrine - byMy Spirit.
I will prepare a place for My people. You shall go forth and lead My people to a
place of habitation. I will show you and I will guide you. I will be your purse
bearer. I will hand the checks and the money as the time is prepared for this.
There shall be a time and a season and a place for My people to go. Even as I shall
call them forth before the cities become desolate. You shall raise up…other
cities that shall be the permanent place. There shall be schools of ministry. They
shall flow out of the city into the country--into the country, into the City of
Habitation; says the Lord.
This load shall be too heavy for you. You shall not be able to bear the burden
alone. I shall raise up helpmates, yes, even many help-mates both male and
female. I will set them and call them to stand by your side. You shall go forth and
lead a people even as Moses led a people and there shall be those that shall lift up
your hands. You shall consecrate this people…and assign and delegate. I would
have you to delegate the authority, duty, and responsibility, because you cannot
carry this load yourself. The burden is too heavy and the journey is too far.
I will send wise men even as I sent wise men to behold My Son's birth, so shall I
send wise men to teach you, help you, guide, you and to be a strength and a source
of supply to you. I shall be your purse bearer. I shall raise up ministers of
finance in this area. To those that will hear My voice, yield, become obedient and
truly do as My word says by setting the Kingdom first in their heart - I shall bless
them. I shall cause them to prosper and they will be prospering because it is. They
will remember and know that of a truth that it is their Lord and their God that
gives them power to get wealth (Deut. 8:18). They shall prosper when there is
no prosperity and bear fruit when others are barren. Your land and your habitation
shall be a place of a forerunner - you shall go before hand. Even as I sent Joseph
before hand, so shall you go before....you shall send forth the Joseph out of My
bride and My congregation to prepare--even to make ready a time and a place that I
shall choose, it shall be of My choosing and of My calling, says the Lord.
I shall visit you. There shall be many that shall raise up out of you and you shall be
known in your ministries. From out of you, shall come forth the 5-fold ministry.
This ministry shall be known and established…I shall move quickly. I will do a
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
3
quick work in teaching and in bringing up these people that must be brought up.
Yes, this must be a “do-work,” and a new work. As I open My hand--even out of
the clouds, even as I have shown you and I shall show you that - as My hand opens
and pulsates so shall the children grow mightily and quickly.
I shall bring them up, teach them and lead them by the right way that they might go
and prepare a City for Habitation - they will plant their vineyards and sow their
fields. Their cattle shall give their increase, says the Lord. For even as I have sent
My messengers and many have heard the voice…I have, shot the arrow of My
deliverance for My people. The arrow is the flaming arrow of My deliverance of
My gospel and of My power.
The Out-Pouring of the Latter Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city.It shall be noised abroad even world-wide. They will stand in awe and will return
unto the Holy reverence of My Name and of My people. They shall flourish. The
way of My teachings shall be by My Spirit and MyWord. I will do a new thing.
I will visit them in the night season with dreams and visions as I have said in My
Word. I will even send My angels. I will take people in the Spirit and catch
them away in the Spirit…it shall be by Me and I shall teach them in new ways.
My Word shall not return unto me void but that thing which I have said is absolute,
My Word is absolute. My Word is sovereign. My Word is established. My Word
shall be. If there be those that are stubborn, rebellious and obstinate, I shall
remove the Royal Diadem and the Crown of Glory and I shall give it to another,
says the Lord. This is the day of My visitation unto you. I shall call the recording
angels of Heaven and earth to record to you, this day that it is sealed upon you and
it cannot be removed, in Jesus' mighty name.
For you shall not build unto Me or unto yourself buildings of places to in-gather.
You shall continue with the plan as I have given you in the beginning. For it is My
plan. It shall be by My design, and shall not be by groping as in the dark - for My
people that have been sitting in the valley and shadow of darkness have seen the
light.
Even as Paul had seen the light, but his fellow-laborers saw not the light, but he
became the reflection of that light even as John bore witness of that light. For it is
BLUEPRINT PROPHECY
Friends of the Bridegroom
www.fotb.com
4
given unto you, to know and to see the Just One (Acts 22:12-14). For I have many
people that must yet come to the light. My light is understanding.
For out of the center of the Hub – it shall grow forth from the House of Prayer.
For I have said My House shall be called a "House of Prayer". For this is of Me.
The fifth shall be My grace. For out of My grace shall flow forth grace and favor
to all that are willing and obedient. For have I not said the first shall be last and
the last shall be first. Thus it shall be as the fifth place of ministry is to be readied-
-then it shall be built by My design.
For into this place shall flow the outreach ministries and from these in-gathering
meetings shall flow the fullness of Christ…the workings of the fullness of the gifts
of the Holy Ghost. For when you have the nine gifts come together, then shall be
fulfilled the scripture, “these works and even greater works shall you do.”
There are the many that shall be raised up at the appointed time for the world to
see. This is a part of the ministry of the End-Time Church. For even as I have
called John to make ready a people for the Lord, even so this will…bear the
forerunner spirit that was upon John. This shall be a spirit of preparation and of
preparedness, for this is the separation work. For I have called for My people to
come out and be separate--even unto Me. For I will not have a piece of a people:
but it shall be all or none. For, I place in your hands the final decision and you
shall go forth by faith. Faith is by My grace and in My grace is My tolerance and
contingency for flesh.
For the government shall be by the voice of twelve. For disciples shall be sent
out... They shall go as servants into the out-of-the-way places to compel them to
come in to My House that it may be full. For this shall move to the outer borders
of the city for the final phases of the building of My "House of Prayer".
Awesome prophecies, Yasou! Thank you for sharing these. God is such a good God. Did you share them because you see something that contradicts scripture or contradicts God's character and nature? I don't see anything in them. If you do a word search in the bible you will see that God Himself uses the term "latter rain" many times, so using that term to denote the end-time raining down of the Spirit is not contrary to scripture. And of course the 5-fold ministry is talked about in the NT, so that doesn't contradict scripture either.
I love these prophecies! I haven't seen them before. They show how God is such a good provider to us. He gives us exactly what we need when He calls us to do something. He promised Mike that He would provide both financially and with people to help. And He encouraged Mike that people would leave that prayer house and have influence on other places in the world. How sweet is God to choose to bless His children in this way. Cool!
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 12:45:01 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
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Actually I was wondering who gave the prophecy.? Do you know?
And I only highlighted those sections because I keep hearing denials of Latter Rain being part of IHOP.
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
Blessings
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 1:10:01 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1495
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yasou_ray
Actually I was wondering who gave the prophecy.? Do you know?
And I only highlighted those sections because I keep hearing denials of Latter Rain being part of IHOP.
As I said previously, I don't want a debate on theology. I know what I believe. I'm only trying to get FACTS as to what IHOP teaches.
Blessings
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/28/2007 2:52:00 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I would think that using a term that's in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that that person is part of some cult. I use that term all the time to mean the latter raining down of God's Spirit in the end times. And I've never heard the teachings about Manifest Sons of God before. It's new to me since I've been on these forums. And I participated in some Toronto Renewal stuff and never heard anyone there teach on or talk about MSOG or Latter Rain things that you guys keep bringing up. So that's new to me, but I still have always used the term 'latter rain' in my own conversations to mean what God is pouring out during these end times to His people.
So, for the record, because the term is in a prophecy doesn't mean anything one way or another I would think.
Hope this helps:
Items in red are unbiblical beliefs
Beliefs of the Latter Rain Movement
Considered to be one of today's most dangerous false teachings in the church, the movement's doctrines are taught and supported by a wide range of controversial teachers. They include Rick Joyner, C. Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, Mike Bickle, Bill Hamon, and countless others.
The Latter Rain Revival was characterized by healings, the laying on of hands, emphasis on spiritual gifts, fasting, prayer, prophecy, allegiance to the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11), importance of the Jewish feast of Pentecost and Tabernacles, distrust of denominations, manifestations of the sons of God, and the returning of Jesus Christ in accordance with the outpouring of Gods spirit.
Splitting from the Assemblies of God, the Latter Rain Revival became increasingly anti-denominational (Melton, 418). They considered their beliefs to be a continuation or addition of the pentecostal movements (Melton, 418). Now all the churches have independent and autonomous congregations (Melton, 418)
The Latter Rain movement was Pentecostal in nature, yet it was contrasting the old Pentecostalism. NOLR (New Order of the Latter Rain) was more emotional and vibrant in comparison. Also, NOLR believed that spiritual gifts were received by the laying on of hands in contrast to "tarrying" for the Holy Spirit as the old Pentecostals did (Melton, 532).
William Branham has occasionaly been referred to as the founder of the Latter Rain revival due to his influential role in the revival's spread. Branham and Oral Roberts encouraged the spread of NOLR with their healing ministry (Melton, 84). Branham was also seen as the prophet (Elijah) of the movement. Franklin Hall was a healing evangelist and his emphasis on fasting and prayer were also instrumental in the development of the Latter Rain revival (Melton, 532).
Stemming from Ephesians 4:11 of the Bible, the Latter Rain followers believe in the restoration of the five-fold ministry. This ministry consists of apostles, prophets, missionaries, evangelists, pastors and teachers with the addition of apostles and prophets being the most controversial (Melton, 418).
The doctrine of Manifest Sons of God holds that "anointed" ones can enter into sonship and hence become divine. The belief that humans can become gods is highly controversial because it blurs the line between creator and created (Melton, 420). Latter Rain supporters think the doctrine of sonship is aligned with Scripture (1 Corinthians 15:45-47 and Romans 8:19) so that "sonship is an actual gaining of the image and likeness of Christ" (Melton, 420).
Joel's Army is another doctrine of the Latter Rain faith. This claims that the Latter Rain advocates must conquer and dominate the world in order for the new millenium and Christ to come .
Another common theme in NOLR is the "new thing" of Isaiah 43:19 and Acts 17:18-21. This belief is similar to gnosticism in that they are always seeking a "new thing" or revelation to escape the material world .
The Latter Rain movement believed it was important to understand the history of their movement. As they saw it, Christianity was slowly disintegrating throughout history and the church was becoming less and less "pristine" (Melton, 418). God began his restoration of the church beginning with Luther, then the process was continued by John Wesley and the Methodists, and then the Pentecostals and now the Latter Rain (Melton, 418).
From the beginning, the NOLR was opposed by the Assemblies of God and Pentecostal Assemblies of God. Later, in the 1980's, it was targeted by the Christian counter-cult organizations due to the Latter Rain doctrine of Manifest Sons of God. This belief claims that humans who believe in the Latter Rain can actually become divine themselves (Melton, 419-420).
The Latter Rain revival was a catalyst for later Pentecostal movements such as the Brownsville/Pensacola Revival and the Toronto Blessing/Laughing Phenomenon. These more recent movements differ from NOLR in that their beliefs are accepted by the Assemblies of God while the Latter Rain doctrines were considered heretical. The beliefs of both Brownsville and the Toronto Blessing are aligned exactly with those of the Latter Rain revival. There is an emphasis on the imparting of spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands and emotion filled "manifestations of gifts of the Holy Spirit." The Brownsville Revival began with a visiting evangelical speaker, Steve Hill, in June 1995.
Latter Rain or Dominion teaching can be summed up this way:
- The Church must be restored and equipped to rule by the five-fold ministries.
- It must come to perfection and complete visible UNITY.
- Out of the purified church will come a spiritual elite corps, a Corporate Christ who possess the
Spirit without measure.
- They will purge the earth of all wickedness and rebellion
- They will judge the apostate Church
- They will redeem all creation, and restore the earth
- They will eventually overcome death itself in a counterfeit of the Rapture
- The Church will thus inherit the earth, and rule over it from the Throne of Christ.
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 11/28/2007 2:58:27 PM >
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