RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Church



Message

gcsmithjr -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/10/2009 5:54:30 PM)

quote:

lw9, I totally agree with you. I have a very close friend who is MASSIVELY in debt and is heavily involved in IHOP. Somehow, without working to pay off debt, he thinks that God is going to supernaturally just send him a blank check to pay off the debt he got through irresponsibility. Jobs are hard to come by, but he rarely even tried to work... but he sees it as a blessing that he doesn't get work, so that he can spend all his time in KC, MO shut up in their 24-7 prayer room. All the while, he sends out mass e-mails for people to send him money to support him. I am very concerned for him, for his mind has been taken over by Bickle and his hounds. Several different times I have shown him pages and pages and pages of documented evidence that the IHOP movement is dangerous (mostly in Bickle's own words), but he flat out refuses to even consider any of it, but only passionately defends the man. We need to pray for EVERY person who has been deceived by this false prophet. I just pray that God will have mercy on them because even He said that He would send strong delusion to those who choose to believe a lie... who refuse to look at and examine the fruit of a "ministry".

Thanks for sharing. Sadly, as a Kansas Citian I'm aware of dozens of similar stories.

I've known Mike and his ministry for more than 20 years (my wife was deeply involved in Mike's previous church, Kansas City Fellowship, when we first met and I was one of the pastors at a church that attracted a large number of people who were broken by what happened at KCF).

On a personal level Mike is a good man, but he doesn't pay nearly enough attention to his doctrine or the teaching at IHOP (which is exactly the same pattern that was exposed at KCF). The Statement of Faith on his website may reflect a level of orthodoxy but the teaching and practice at IHOP don't adhere to that statement of faith.

While I like him personally, I have head and seen too many examples of people whose lives have been demolished by the ministries he leads. I have also personally experienced Mike's tendency to over-spiritualize and to exaggerate what God is doing. When I was in seminary Mike was invited to speak at a conference I attended. I listened to Mike give a sermon about what God was doing in Kansas City and heard him illustrate the power of prayer and faith by telling a story about a small struggling church that God miraculously provided a facility for that God then used to reach "thousands" of people. After the sermon someone asked him which church he was talking about and he gave the name of the church where I worked - I was absolutely stunned, because the story bore no resemblance to the truth.

Sadly, there is much about IHOP that bears resemblance to the errors of Kansas City Fellowship (which are very well documented), yet Mike and the leadership at IHOP have done little to try to avoid repeating those same mistakes again.



ManimalX -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/11/2009 3:44:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

tsnody2001:

Thanks for posting your testimony. We need more people like you to speak up and speak out against this movement. I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. After reading through Bickle's teachings and prophecies, it's easy to see why his followers would feel the way your friend does about finances. Yeah, don't worry about those bills. It will all be taken care of... somehow. Dominionism is a modern day spiritual plague.


That's just it though: more people aren't "speaking up" because that kind of story is completely opposite of what happens at IHOP.

And for every one of these rare second and third-hand anecdotes, I can produce for you hundreds of people who have been to IHOP, associated with Bickle and "his hounds" (LOL!), and have come away with an enriched relationship with Christ and love for God.

I can get a list together for you of Baptists that have climbed into clock towers and started sniping random people, Catholic Priests who have molested children, and various Evangelicals who have embezzled money and swindled supporters. Did they do this because that is what their church teaches? Of course not! And neither does the story of an irresponsible freeloader who doesn't want to be financially responsible have any reflection on the teaching of Bickle or IHOP.

Please don't get me wrong. I am glad you and others out there are keeping a sharp eye out for heresy and bad teaching. However, you are simply wrong about Bickle. There are real enemies of Jesus and His church out there, many who pose an imminent threat, but Bickle and IHOP simply aren't among them.

I don't know what else I can say on the matter except to double-check your presuppositions and beware of second and third-hand gossip!!!!!!.



lw9 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/11/2009 11:00:27 AM)

manimalx:

quote:

That's just it though: more people aren't "speaking up" because that kind of story is completely opposite of what happens at IHOP.


You misunderstand my comment. It's because there are so many testimonies and warnings against Bickle - many from reliable sources - that he has had to come out with denials and hold several community meetings after widespread complaints and concerns from neighbors of the movement. For those who see through the curtain, they need to speak out because those taken in by this movement are clearly unable to do so for themselves. I've seen the blind loyalty to Bickle at work for myself in this thread. All of that aside, the real issue here is doctrine and teachings. Everything else is just a symptom and a result of non-Biblical teaching.

quote:

I don't know what else I can say on the matter except to double-check your presuppositions and beware of second and third-hand gossip!!!!!!.


Everything I've pointed out [such as #723] comes directly from Mike Bickle as found on Mike Bickle's IHOP website, and I listed those sources. That's not presupposition or gossip. That's just pointing out the FACTS of what Bickle himself is teaching.

Simply telling us 'You're wrong about Bickle' does not make your case. Giving your personal opinion and emotional defense of the man does nothing to reconcile his blatantly non-Biblical teachings to scripture. Bringing up a Baptist sniper doesn't make the real issue of Bickle's aberrent teaching go away. Wrong is wrong is wrong, and he's definitely wrong on so many accounts.

Bottom line... again: The jesus Bickle claims to be hearing from does not match the Jesus of the Holy Bible, period. He's a false teacher, false prophet, promotes false gifts, and he teaches aberrant Dominionist theology. That's a very dangerous thing.



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/12/2009 11:11:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Digrieze

The current issue of The Christian Research Journal (vol.32, no.4) has an article on Mike Bickle and his interpretation of Revelation (really makes christians into a bloodthirsty lot, and God rather helpless without us). May be of interest to the readers of this thread, although they tend to skirt around the cult like aspects of his IHOP movement when they mention it.


Digrieze,

Can you please summarize or post some of the article? The magazine requires a subscription and not all of us can afford to line Hank's pockets! Unless there is a place online to read it for free?


Actually, you can purchase single copies of this magazine at some bookstores. In our area, Lifeway carries it, and I've seen it at one of the big chains (Barnes & Noble, Borders, Books-A-Million) but can't remember which one.

I got the issue at Lifeway this weekend. It's a good article, but only focuses on Bickle's teachings regarding End Times. Doesn't even go into the "Bride of Christ" thing (which IMO should have been included in a discussion of Bickle's teachings regarding the End Times). Definitely doesn't address any sociological/psychological/spiritual issues relating to the young people who have joined the group.



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/12/2009 1:47:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

tsnody2001:

Thanks for posting your testimony. We need more people like you to speak up and speak out against this movement. I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. After reading through Bickle's teachings and prophecies, it's easy to see why his followers would feel the way your friend does about finances. Yeah, don't worry about those bills. It will all be taken care of... somehow. Dominionism is a modern day spiritual plague.


That's just it though: more people aren't "speaking up" because that kind of story is completely opposite of what happens at IHOP.

And for every one of these rare second and third-hand anecdotes, I can produce for you hundreds of people who have been to IHOP, associated with Bickle and "his hounds" (LOL!), and have come away with an enriched relationship with Christ and love for God.

I can get a list together for you of Baptists that have climbed into clock towers and started sniping random people, Catholic Priests who have molested children, and various Evangelicals who have embezzled money and swindled supporters. Did they do this because that is what their church teaches? Of course not! And neither does the story of an irresponsible freeloader who doesn't want to be financially responsible have any reflection on the teaching of Bickle or IHOP.

Please don't get me wrong. I am glad you and others out there are keeping a sharp eye out for heresy and bad teaching. However, you are simply wrong about Bickle. There are real enemies of Jesus and His church out there, many who pose an imminent threat, but Bickle and IHOP simply aren't among them.

I don't know what else I can say on the matter except to double-check your presuppositions and beware of second and third-hand gossip!!!!!!.


Looks like post #726 comes from someone that knows him personally



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/26/2009 6:55:59 PM)

ManimalX, very good to see you still hanging around these types of discussions. It's been a while. I guess it is about time somebody else stepped in front of the firing squad, eh?

Since I don't have the time or attention span to re-read this entire thread, I'm just going to add some quick thoughts here.

quote:

As far as "noble" in quotes, come on, praying to a clock by the nature of it implies that something is being done that was not done without IHOP. God is God over the whole world where there is always someone awake and praying, I venture to say.
sirwintery, there is no "praying to a clock". There is praying to God. It is no different than saying "I am going to spend an hour in quiet time every day". If that is fine and biblical, than 24/7 prayer is fine and Biblical. In the Temple, there were those who were commissioned to maintain the fire on the altar all day, every day. Was God helpless to maintain that fire? Of course not. But it was what God said. We are taking the same concept and applying it to prayer and fasting. God is worthy of 24/7 prayer and adoration, so we are trying to do just that... and have been for the last ten years whether you or Kat_D like it. Wish us well or not, 20 years of daily prayer has culminated in 10 years of continuous prayer and worship in the southside of Kansas City.

quote:

I can get a list together for you of Baptists that have climbed into clock towers and started sniping random people, Catholic Priests who have molested children, and various Evangelicals who have embezzled money and swindled supporters. Did they do this because that is what their church teaches? Of course not! And neither does the story of an irresponsible freeloader who doesn't want to be financially responsible have any reflection on the teaching of Bickle or IHOP.
This is the key distinction among Christian theological arguments. If we like the doctrine and the person, a freeloader or "extremist" is just misunderstanding and taking things too far. If we don't like the doctrine and the people, those same individuals are the "logical conclusion" of said doctrine. That is also why most of these arguments are nothing but a string of FAIL's.
quote:

You misunderstand my comment. It's because there are so many testimonies and warnings against Bickle - many from reliable sources - that he has had to come out with denials and hold several community meetings after widespread complaints and concerns from neighbors of the movement. For those who see through the curtain, they need to speak out because those taken in by this movement are clearly unable to do so for themselves.
From someone "on the other side of the curtain", you really don't know what you are talking about in this comment. Those community meetings were not based on denying accusations or a response to "widespread complaints". Here is the chain of events as they actually happened: (A) Jackson County newspaper writes a front page article about IHOP-KC planning the new World Headquarters on the land that was one part of the Truman Farm. (Roughly 18 months ago) (B) The Kansas City Star runs a Front Page article about IHOP-KC's growing community in South KC. Three page spread that was about as accurate as you would expect a secular paper to be with a religious topic. (roughly 6 months ago). (C) IHOP-KC holds two community forums to answer questions and become more acquainted with the neighbors following the two articles. (roughly three months ago). Now... here is the kicker... One of the questions raised was how a massive non-profit organization owning a fair bit of property in an already "downturned" community would affect the municipality of that community. The answer? How many non-profit organizations do you know that voluntarily pay $300,000 a year to the city? That is called honor, integrity, and humility. I don't know of any churches that do that.

Now, please take your condescension elsewhere. I am on the other side of the curtain. I am not helpless. I am not unable to "save myself" from IHOP-KC. At any moment I like, I can walk away. I am laying down what would otherwise be a "normal" life for the sake of the prayer. I have lived in Kansas City for 2 years now... the city is falling apart. There is a reason that the Jackson County paper quoted the mayor of Grandview as welcoming IHOP-KC with open arms. Honestly, please consider what it is that you are saying before saying it.

Please note: Not one sentence in this post started with "Mike says...". Ain't free thought awesome?

Adam



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/27/2009 11:12:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin


quote:

As far as "noble" in quotes, come on, praying to a clock by the nature of it implies that something is being done that was not done without IHOP. God is God over the whole world where there is always someone awake and praying, I venture to say.


sirwintery, there is no "praying to a clock". There is praying to God. It is no different than saying "I am going to spend an hour in quiet time every day". If that is fine and biblical, than 24/7 prayer is fine and Biblical. In the Temple, there were those who were commissioned to maintain the fire on the altar all day, every day. Was God helpless to maintain that fire? Of course not. But it was what God said. We are taking the same concept and applying it to prayer and fasting. God is worthy of 24/7 prayer and adoration, so we are trying to do just that... and have been for the last ten years whether you or Kat_D like it. Wish us well or not, 20 years of daily prayer has culminated in 10 years of continuous prayer and worship in the southside of Kansas City.



It is indeed different. Different because of Bickle's implication that the return of Christ is associated with it--see the CBN video on youtube previously linked in this thread.

It really doesn't matter if anyone comes on here and says something different than what "Mike says" in order to defend him. What _is_ the Bickle-shaped blind spot in his followers remembrance of what he says and has said? I guess it starts with the typical "Kansas City Prophets doesn't count", which is willfully disregarding IHOP's history. Then there's the statement of what he _doesn't_ believe, which is at best atypical of a ministry's belief statement. There's the idea that directing people to do things based on a "God is going in this direction" concept, which implies prophetic, direct revelation and yet the huge dodge that Mike doesn't claim to be a prophet is supposed to be his escape clause.

I watched a Bickle video on youtube that I think was dated December '08 wherein he describes a dream and a vision, as I recall he said he had "once in a lifetime experience" twice...anyway he goes on to describe tanks rolling across the country and lamely puts forth "martial law?" and then says he thinks it was "something more".

Are his followers really going to let him get away with that, throwing out a supposed prophetic dream, which can of course either sit there forever or be co-opted into some other "vision"...I guess they are.

I'm still waiting for all the young black men to come forth as leaders in their movement that was being claimed in a One Thing conference a couple of years ago.

This guy makes prophetic-type statements to listeners with short memories. I guess being "wowed" from meeting to meeting at the latest new thing is good enough for some. Some call it Biblical. "Mike says".

"(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)"--Acts 17:21 (NIV)

There is certainly an element of the above in today's "prophetic", Joyner/Bickle/NAR cross-pollinating gerrymander of a movement.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/27/2009 6:25:50 PM)

quote:

It is indeed different. Different because of Bickle's implication that the return of Christ is associated with it--see the CBN video on youtube previously linked in this thread.
Do you really object to the return of Christ being connected with the global church refocusing on prayer and intercession? The video you are referring to does not do justice to the vision that has been cast. The return of Jesus has nothing to do with IHOP-KC. It does have everything to do with the church returning to the place of prayer. So once again, your accusation makes zero sense because you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It isn't about IHOP-KC, IHOP-Atlanta, JHOP-DC, JHOP-San Francisco, IHOP-Miami, Succat Hallel in Jerusalem, or any other single house of prayer... it is about the larger church body rediscovering the call to pray. In the Kansas City Star article that I referred to earlier, Mike Bickle was actually quoted as saying "We are one instrument in the larger orchestra of the body of Christ. We are one instrument and we want to play it hard." So I don't know where you get this idea that we are all suffering from delusions of grandeur, because nothing we do is seperated from the church in Kansas City.
quote:

It really doesn't matter if anyone comes on here and says something different than what "Mike says" in order to defend him.
And in case you didn't notice, I wasn't actually defending Mike. I was, however, questioning your poor argument technique and abstract claims with no foundation.
quote:

What _is_ the Bickle-shaped blind spot in his followers remembrance of what he says and has said? I guess it starts with the typical "Kansas City Prophets doesn't count", which is willfully disregarding IHOP's history. Then there's the statement of what he _doesn't_ believe, which is at best atypical of a ministry's belief statement. There's the idea that directing people to do things based on a "God is going in this direction" concept, which implies prophetic, direct revelation and yet the huge dodge that Mike doesn't claim to be a prophet is supposed to be his escape clause.
To be clear, I don't agree with everything Mike says or teaches from the platform. I have yet to meet anyone who does. However, my disagreements with him do not invalidate his leadership of that particular ministry, neither do my disagreements mean that he is a heretic. It merely means that we have come to different conclusions about a topic. So there is no blind spot, doctrinally speaking... I agree with him more than I disagree with him, just like I would with a pastor at a "normal" church.

As for prophetic revelation, are you really offended that God would speak to somebody? I know people who have prophetic dreams a couple times a week. Certainly not of the scope of the ones that Mike tells at the Onething conferences, but prophetic nonetheless. The thing that is easy to forget is that when the stories in the prophetic history come out, it is covering some 30 years of time. If you cannot accepts one man receiving visions and prophecies, what will you do with yourself when God goes to "pour out [His] Spirit on all flesh"? Once again, we are freaking out over something that most likely a fair bit more normative in the 1st Century church.
quote:

I watched a Bickle video on youtube that I think was dated December '08 wherein he describes a dream and a vision, as I recall he said he had "once in a lifetime experience" twice...anyway he goes on to describe tanks rolling across the country and lamely puts forth "martial law?" and then says he thinks it was "something more".
I have yet to hear anything stunning or scandalous...... If you read Biblical prophecy, there is another global war coming. The only thing that might lead you to believe America would not be affected by something of that nature would be if we had been destroyed or subjugated already. As for the "once in a lifetime" bit, so? Going into space is a "once in a lifetime" experience, yet there are astronauts who have been up multiple times. For some of us, going skydiving is a "once in a lifetime" experience, and yet there are people who do it for a living. Once again, so? Semantics make for a horrible argument in a non-theological debate.
quote:

I'm still waiting for all the young black men to come forth as leaders in their movement that was being claimed in a One Thing conference a couple of years ago.
You know, time and prophecy are not kissing cousins. I know which prophetic word you are referring to because I was there when it was given. There was no deadline put on it. It wasn't like Mr. Ford declared "By the year 2010 the African American community is going to be leading the church!". When Jesus' disciples are pointing out the buildings of the temple, Jesus declares in Matthew 24 that not one stone will be left on top of another...... that word took almost 50 years to come about. Joseph receives prophetic dreams about his family bowing down before him... that one took about 25 years to happen. God tells Noah to build an ark because He is going to destroy the earth... 100+ years later... there it is. Here is the real kicker... AD94 (roughly) John the Beloved is on the Isle of Patmos and receives a vision about the return of Christ and is told that it is "soon". 1915 years later (by Gregorian reckoning) we are still waiting for the "Soon return of Christ". So the fact that there was a word given 3 years ago and it hasn't happened yet? I'm not really worried about it. So rather than the "prophetic people" have short memories, maybe the larger Evangelical movement has been so taken in by microwave culture that we have no patience anymore?
quote:

"(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)"--Acts 17:21 (NIV)
The funny part about this verse is that it isn't really new ideas that are being put forth. The allegorical application of the Song of Solomon isn't new... rather, it is really old. You can find the exact same application in the Medieval period through guys like Bernard of Clairvaux, Theresa of Avila, John of the Cross, the list goes on. The post-tribulation rapture isn't new either... it dates back to the early Post-Apostolic age. If you want to see actual novelty among the sphere of Christian doctrine, you need to look at the liberal tradition of guys like Tony Campolo, Martin Luther King Jr., and Brian McLaren... Oh yeah, we have threads to attack those guys too......

Once again, I am not interested in defending Mike Bickle. I have my problems with the guy's doctrine too. However, the "errors" you are pulling out do not justify the amount of time, energy, emotion, and server space that are so willingly devoted to him.

Adam



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/28/2009 11:14:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

It is indeed different. Different because of Bickle's implication that the return of Christ is associated with it--see the CBN video on youtube previously linked in this thread.
Do you really object to the return of Christ being connected with the global church refocusing on prayer and intercession? The video you are referring to does not do justice to the vision that has been cast.

Translation: Don't use Mike Bickle to explain Mike Bickle. Who is casting what vision on behalf of whom?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The return of Jesus has nothing to do with IHOP-KC.


Amen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
It does have everything to do with the church returning to the place of prayer. So once again, your accusation makes zero sense because you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It isn't about IHOP-KC, IHOP-Atlanta, JHOP-DC, JHOP-San Francisco, IHOP-Miami, Succat Hallel in Jerusalem, or any other single house of prayer... it is about the larger church body rediscovering the call to pray.


It's about little places that emulate Bickle by having perhaps 14 prayer meetings a week which no one attends or pays attention to. Your examples aren't the only ones. God isn't the focus when Big Ben is. Place to stay, ker-ching, teachings, ker-ching, books and cd's, ker-ching....I hope to get ahold of one of my young friends and ask him how much he's spent out there so far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
In the Kansas City Star article that I referred to earlier, Mike Bickle was actually quoted as saying "We are one instrument in the larger orchestra of the body of Christ. We are one instrument and we want to play it hard." So I don't know where you get this idea that we are all suffering from delusions of grandeur, because nothing we do is seperated from the church in Kansas City.


It would be less parasitical to just be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness. Show me a complete disavowal of Kansas City Prophets _and_ their "prophecies". Come on...that looking at a pancake house and prophesying a prayer house is laughable. When the source is discredited, carrying on under a discredited prophet's prophetic words is something that just should not be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
To be clear, I don't agree with everything Mike says or teaches from the platform. I have yet to meet anyone who does. However, my disagreements with him do not invalidate his leadership of that particular ministry, neither do my disagreements mean that he is a heretic. It merely means that we have come to different conclusions about a topic. So there is no blind spot, doctrinally speaking... I agree with him more than I disagree with him, just like I would with a pastor at a "normal" church.

As for prophetic revelation, are you really offended that God would speak to somebody? I know people who have prophetic dreams a couple times a week. Certainly not of the scope of the ones that Mike tells at the Onething conferences, but prophetic nonetheless. The thing that is easy to forget is that when the stories in the prophetic history come out, it is covering some 30 years of time. If you cannot accepts one man receiving visions and prophecies, what will you do with yourself when God goes to "pour out [His] Spirit on all flesh"? Once again, we are freaking out over something that most likely a fair bit more normative in the 1st Century church.


The view you are describing is Latter Rain teaching. The history shows we should not listen to Bob Jones, Paul Cain and those who esteem their "prophecies" and teachings such as Mr. Bickle. IF I were going to hang out with someone who really had a prophetic gift, I would know that it wouldn't be this crowd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:

I watched a Bickle video on youtube that I think was dated December '08 wherein he describes a dream and a vision, as I recall he said he had "once in a lifetime experience" twice...anyway he goes on to describe tanks rolling across the country and lamely puts forth "martial law?" and then says he thinks it was "something more".
I have yet to hear anything stunning or scandalous...... If you read Biblical prophecy, there is another global war coming. The only thing that might lead you to believe America would not be affected by something of that nature would be if we had been destroyed or subjugated already. As for the "once in a lifetime" bit, so? Going into space is a "once in a lifetime" experience, yet there are astronauts who have been up multiple times. For some of us, going skydiving is a "once in a lifetime" experience, and yet there are people who do it for a living. Once again, so? Semantics make for a horrible argument in a non-theological debate.


The point was not even to whether MB was talking about something that is likely, but that he edges in with "prophetic" nudges which are a little dramatic and are saying to people that God is speaking to him. Who will hold him accountable for this? But...it can't be done...it's one of those things with a permanent shelf life...yet the audience may buy into Bickle because it's implied that he received something from God. Bickle may be sincere in believing this...and why would he singularly receive it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

I'm still waiting for all the young black men to come forth as leaders in their movement that was being claimed in a One Thing conference a couple of years ago.
You know, time and prophecy are not kissing cousins. I know which prophetic word you are referring to because I was there when it was given. There was no deadline put on it. It wasn't like Mr. Ford declared "By the year 2010 the African American community is going to be leading the church!". When Jesus' disciples are pointing out the buildings of the temple, Jesus declares in Matthew 24 that not one stone will be left on top of another...... that word took almost 50 years to come about. Joseph receives prophetic dreams about his family bowing down before him... that one took about 25 years to happen. God tells Noah to build an ark because He is going to destroy the earth... 100+ years later... there it is. Here is the real kicker... AD94 (roughly) John the Beloved is on the Isle of Patmos and receives a vision about the return of Christ and is told that it is "soon". 1915 years later (by Gregorian reckoning) we are still waiting for the "Soon return of Christ". So the fact that there was a word given 3 years ago and it hasn't happened yet? I'm not really worried about it. So rather than the "prophetic people" have short memories, maybe the larger Evangelical movement has been so taken in by microwave culture that we have no patience anymore?


Except that's not it...there'll be more new things to be heard, and more and more...tantalizing, isn't it? It's like a "microwave culture" of the prophecy-hungry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

Once again, I am not interested in defending Mike Bickle. I have my problems with the guy's doctrine too. However, the "errors" you are pulling out do not justify the amount of time, energy, emotion, and server space that are so willingly devoted to him.

Adam


One day someone may look up and say, "Why have I spent so long listening to this guy and compelling myself to try and pray for hours for the sake of praying for hours?"

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." --Jesus, Mattew 6:6



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/28/2009 12:04:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The return of Jesus has nothing to do with IHOP-KC.



To a Dominionist it does. According to their heretical beliefs, Christ cannot return until these self-appointed apostles and prophets restore the church governement here on earth.



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/30/2009 4:04:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
The return of Jesus has nothing to do with IHOP-KC.


To a Dominionist it does. According to their heretical beliefs, Christ cannot return until these self-appointed apostles and prophets restore the church governement here on earth.


I believe the language that would be used would be world-wide end-times prayer movement or something along those lines, just substitute a phrase like that for IHOP-KC itself. But what my substitution would mean, coming from IHOP-KC, would be them, and those groups that have sprung up along with them or through them. LOL, I don't even know if I communicated that the best, since I've got H1N1 right now. But basically, the more generic term in their use means IHOP-KC, spin-offs and groups specifically like-minded to certain IHOP distinctives.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (10/31/2009 12:47:35 AM)

quote:

Translation: Don't use Mike Bickle to explain Mike Bickle. Who is casting what vision on behalf of whom?
Connect the dots, please. Nothing I said in my response implies anything of that nature.

According to how we are understanding our little prayer ministry in Kansas City, we are but one cog in a much bigger gear. We are not the first ones to do 24/7 prayer. Neither are we the last. The vision that Mike has stated for his ministry (IHOP-KC) is that there would be a place of 24/7 prayer and worship until the return of Christ. There is a lot that falls under that, but that is the primary mandate of this ministry. If that is too complex, I'll try to explain it in more depth.

quote:

It's about little places that emulate Bickle by having perhaps 14 prayer meetings a week which no one attends or pays attention to.
(A) if people were "emulating Bickle" they would be some of the saddest individuals around. The man is in the prayer room at 6AM three days a week, is the prayer leader for several sets throughout the week, lives in a DUPLEX, preaches between 3 and 6 times every week, and until he recently had to replace his car drove a beat up 1987 Honda. Of the millions of dollars that pass through the man's hands, very, very little of it stays there.

(B) This argument is based on Democratic Philosophy that whatever draws the most people must be more right. Unless their name happens to be Joel Osteen, Willow Creek, Joyce Meyer... etc. So unless it draws an "average" crowd, it can't be of the spirit? FAIL.
quote:

Your examples aren't the only ones. God isn't the focus when Big Ben is. Place to stay, ker-ching, teachings, ker-ching, books and cd's, ker-ching....I hope to get ahold of one of my young friends and ask him how much he's spent out there so far.
I would love to know what you mean by Big Ben being the focus. So far, all you have is unsubstantiated opinion, and that lowers your intellectual integrity to almost nil.

Place to stay? The vast majority of people live off-campus. Teachings? If you don't want to give, don't give (after all, the speakers who are on staff live on missionary support). Books and cds? you have to cover the cost of publishing, and if someone doesn't want them, they don't have to buy them. Honestly? I would rather some young person be spending their money on good worship music than on most of what the CMI cranks out.

Once again, this is your opinion based on opinion, and has no bearing on doctrinal reality. There is a physical reality and cost to running a ministry based on a 24/7 schedule, and that money has to come from somewhere. Shall we start asking the average American Christian how much money and time they have spent to have their nice upper-middle class existence with the above-average car, Xbox 360, and their movie collection? Honestly, this is a red herring.
quote:

It would be less parasitical to just be a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness.
Except we don't believe the Mormon or Jehovah's Witness doctrine. What you describe as parasitical is an accurate description of almost every church establishment in the United States. The church organization has to pay its pastors, it has to pay for its facilities, and where does that money come from? The hapless pew-sitters. Once again, you are really not making sense.
quote:

Show me a complete disavowal of Kansas City Prophets _and_ their "prophecies".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle
Done and done.
quote:

Come on...that looking at a pancake house and prophesying a prayer house is laughable.
So was marching around Jericho in complete silence. So was King David dancing about in his underwear before the Ark of God. And?
quote:

The view you are describing is Latter Rain teaching.
With two massive discrepancies. Nowhere in my saying did I endorse the idea that the final generation will enter into "God mode" and conquer death of their own righteousness... which is what you are really waiting for me to espouse. Secondly, I was telling of the quite scriptural outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh... I have never believed that the church is going to become the leadership of the earth, because that is Jesus' job and Israel's job. So no, this is not "Latter Rain Heresy", but it is straight up Bible. Joel 2:28-32 is reaffirmed by Acts 2, so even if you think the New Testament somehow supersedes Old Testament prophecy, you cannot escape from the promise of the outpouring of the Spirit.
quote:

The point was not even to whether MB was talking about something that is likely, but that he edges in with "prophetic" nudges which are a little dramatic and are saying to people that God is speaking to him. Who will hold him accountable for this? But...it can't be done...it's one of those things with a permanent shelf life...yet the audience may buy into Bickle because it's implied that he received something from God. Bickle may be sincere in believing this...and why would he singularly receive it?
In an attempt to sort through your rather scattered innuendo......

In the Old Testament, the prophets would begin with a flat out "Thus saith the Lord!" Guess what, so did the false prophets. Implying you got something from God is not new. In fact, if a pastor is getting up to preach a message that he DIDN'T get from God, I'm finding a new church. Why? Because if all I need to hear is the opinion or tradition of men, I'll go to a scholarly debate about the existence of God... it will be more edifying.

Why would John the Beloved by the only one that God Himself commissioned to write a book like that of Revelation? Why would Jesus pick only twelve Jewish guys as His original apostles since the gospel is going to go to the Gentiles and he has whole throngs following Him? Was Mary the only Virgin of David's line that God picked her to bring Jesus to the planet? So you see, the question you end with really makes no sense in view of what God does. Why Mike Bickle? Why Bill Wiese? Shoot, why Charles Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Dwight Moody, Billy Sunday, Smith Wigglesworth, or any other revivalist? At the end of the day, we are all broken human beings with our own sets of imperfection and character flaws. Let you who is without sin cast the first stone.
quote:

Except that's not it...there'll be more new things to be heard, and more and more...tantalizing, isn't it? It's like a "microwave culture" of the prophecy-hungry.
Meaning what, exactly? The old is empirically better than the current? The microwave culture is a reference to instant gratification... the nature of prophecy is the exact opposite. So if you believe in prophecy, you are setting yourself up for a wait. That isn't microwave culture.
quote:

One day someone may look up and say, "Why have I spent so long listening to this guy and compelling myself to try and pray for hours for the sake of praying for hours?"
And here is the fundamental misunderstanding. Earlier you were freaking out about how we said that prayer is unto the return of Christ. Now you are freaking out that we are "try[ing to] pray for the sake of praying for hours." Until you show me that there is a problem with praying, we have no discussion on this topic because your argument is completely ludicrous.
quote:

To a Dominionist it does. According to their heretical beliefs, Christ cannot return until these self-appointed apostles and prophets restore the church governement here on earth.
And that applies how? Unless you are implying that IHOP-KC is dominionist, which it categorically is NOT, this statement means absolutely nothing in judging the validity of IHOP-KC as a ministry. IHOP-KC is praying for Jesus to return so that HE can set up a righteous government... in other words, the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. Nowhere is IHOP-KC endorsing the belief that the church is going to supplant the governments of the world prior to the return of Christ, so this is an air ball of an accusation to foster.
quote:

I believe the language that would be used would be world-wide end-times prayer movement or something along those lines, just substitute a phrase like that for IHOP-KC itself. But what my substitution would mean, coming from IHOP-KC, would be them, and those groups that have sprung up along with them or through them. LOL, I don't even know if I communicated that the best, since I've got H1N1 right now. But basically, the more generic term in their use means IHOP-KC, spin-offs and groups specifically like-minded to certain IHOP distinctives.
FAIL.

The term "Global Prayer Movement" is not a reference to "IHOP-KC, spin-offs and groups specifically like-minded". The "Global Prayer Movement" is a term that is used to make reference to the return to prayer. We pray via the harp-and-bowl model because it makes it easier to spend long hours in prayer and biblical study. Other people have liked that idea. Fault them for it if you must, but if they are giving themselves to prayer in a deliberate and focused way, then they are part of the Global Prayer Movement. Once again, you are making a judgment that is far off-kilter and postulating it as fact. That is a straight betrayal of intellectual discussion.

Adam



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/1/2009 6:29:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

To a Dominionist it does. According to their heretical beliefs, Christ cannot return until these self-appointed apostles and prophets restore the church governement here on earth.

And that applies how? Unless you are implying that IHOP-KC is dominionist, which it categorically is NOT, this statement means absolutely nothing in judging the validity of IHOP-KC as a ministry.

Adam


Actually Adam, I AM implying that they are dominionist, regardless of empty words on a website. I see what they teach, what they espouse, and who they associate with.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/2/2009 12:46:44 AM)

quote:

Actually Adam, I AM implying that they are dominionist, regardless of empty words on a website. I see what they teach, what they espouse, and who they associate with.


Empty words on a website...... At this point, you are completely forgoing the reality of the doctrine being taught and you are arguing against a phantom that you have created in your own imagination. In that regard, you are very right. Dominionism is flat-out wrong from a biblical standpoint. Aren't we all glad that isn't the message that gets taught at IHOP-KC.

The Eschatology espoused from the platform is that there is going to be an epic battle between the spiritual forces of good and evil that is played out on a physical stage as the Antichrist rails his ilk against the saints, and God unleashes His judgment on the Antichrist and his empire. At the very end, Jesus Christ returns to utterly destroy the Antichrist and those who have taken the mark of the Beast once and for all. After that cataclysmic battle (as seen in Revelation 19-20), Jesus Christ sets up His kingdom on the earth for 1000 years. Following that period of tranquility, Satan will be released to deceive the nations one more time and the earth will be cleansed by fire before God the Father comes to the earth to live with mankind forever.

I have yet to see where the Dominionism is in that statement...

Adam



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/2/2009 9:25:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

Show me a complete disavowal of Kansas City Prophets _and_ their "prophecies".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle
Done and done.


When I was reading this post Saturday, I was almost in disbelief at this particular response. Rather than it being "Done" or even near done, there is no disavowal in the link, and there likely never will be.

This is what happens when we have Christian believers who wander into the quagmire of Joyner/Bickle/NAR/Elijah List religion. Criticism only comes from those who are in need of being critiqued themselves, is the mentality.

You have a group that is dedicated to the idea that turning away from what's been shown to be wrong (what they've been caught on) is all that's needed, rather than following the Biblical admonition.

Deuteronomy 18:22

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.



ManimalX -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/2/2009 11:22:27 PM)

Well stated Adam. I used to be a heresy hunter myself, so I understand the misguided zeal of the people arguing with you. They mean well, but they just have some skewed priorities and some discernment issues.

Speaking of IHOP's "cha-ching", the few times I have been there I was hosted FOR FREE in the apartments IHOP owns a few blocks from the prayer center. As you said, Mike has driven his 1987 clunker for 3 decades. He made sure that his salary is the same as that of of IHOP employees, such as the janitor. He is literally the guy who will give you the shirt off of his back if you say you are cold.

The music CDs they sell of Misty Edwards, Mat Gilman, Cory Asbury, and the rest of the worship teams are reasonably priced as any CD in a Christian chain store or Wal Mart, and is great P&W. I am proud of them for being able to support the ministry by selling their great music. The worker is worthy of their wage...

Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/3/2009 9:33:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

Well stated Adam. I used to be a heresy hunter myself, so I understand the misguided zeal of the people arguing with you. They mean well, but they just have some skewed priorities and some discernment issues.

Speaking of IHOP's "cha-ching", the few times I have been there I was hosted FOR FREE in the apartments IHOP owns a few blocks from the prayer center. As you said, Mike has driven his 1987 clunker for 3 decades. He made sure that his salary is the same as that of of IHOP employees, such as the janitor. He is literally the guy who will give you the shirt off of his back if you say you are cold.

The music CDs they sell of Misty Edwards, Mat Gilman, Cory Asbury, and the rest of the worship teams are reasonably priced as any CD in a Christian chain store or Wal Mart, and is great P&W. I am proud of them for being able to support the ministry by selling their great music. The worker is worthy of their wage...

Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.


Who's talking aobut Bickle's finanaces. This thread is about his heretical doctrines



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/3/2009 10:34:46 AM)

"In January 2002, the Word of the Lord came, saying, 'I am raising up a global Bridegroom fast; ask Me to release one hundred million believers worldwide to come before Me in one accord for three days each month until I return.' "

It does not surprise me that this "word" appears unsigned on the IHOP website.

LINK

Here we have the IHOP website telling us that "God" is saying to someone to ask Him to "release one hundred million believers". To "release" them? A vague usage of "binding and loosing", but where are they being held captive? They are believers...so God wants them "in one accord for three days"?

No. This is what happens when we have a Bible-like wording being used to make something sound like "the Word of the Lord".



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/3/2009 1:25:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirwintery

"In January 2002, the Word of the Lord came, saying, 'I am raising up a global Bridegroom fast; ask Me to release one hundred million believers worldwide to come before Me in one accord for three days each month until I return.' "

It does not surprise me that this "word" appears unsigned on the IHOP website.

LINK

Here we have the IHOP website telling us that "God" is saying to someone to ask Him to "release one hundred million believers". To "release" them? A vague usage of "binding and loosing", but where are they being held captive? They are believers...so God wants them "in one accord for three days"?

No. This is what happens when we have a Bible-like wording being used to make something sound like "the Word of the Lord".


It's also blatant Dominionism. You know that little heresy that Bickle and IHOP deny they practice



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/3/2009 2:11:23 PM)

Here's an article with quotes from Bickle and Bob Jones and much more.
LINK
quote:


Mike Bickle also connected with Kansas City Prophets spoke of the anointed men who will represent this New Wave.

"There's Apostles, there's Imminent Apostles and there's MOST IMMINENT APOSTLES. . . . There's various levels of Apostles and the Lord was showing that. . . . out of This Movement there would be 35 apostles. . .that will be of the highest level of apostolic ministry. . .the whole government of this movement in its highest level in all places it goes. . . .the government rests on Apostles and Prophets......Though I believe there will be hundreds of apostles in this movement and every movement will have its apostles and prophets, I believe God, He's merging Apostles in a number of movements now and He's going to add prophets to the prophets that are already there and He's going to bring us to higher statures." (Visions & Revelations, Kansas City Fellowship.)


When someone starts talking to you about Apostles, they're saying that someone has authority over _you_ in spiritual matters and in all matters.

Yeah...they have Dominion...if you let 'em.

The article is called "Dominion Theology and Joel's Army".



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/3/2009 2:53:36 PM)

If any are interested, I have a copy of Dr. Andrew Jackson's examination of forerunner theology that was published in CRJ. Drop me a PM with an Email addy and I can send you a copy with Dr. Jackson's permission.



Soxfan -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/4/2009 8:39:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirwintery

Here's an article with quotes from Bickle and Bob Jones and much more.
LINK
quote:


Mike Bickle also connected with Kansas City Prophets spoke of the anointed men who will represent this New Wave.

"There's Apostles, there's Imminent Apostles and there's MOST IMMINENT APOSTLES. . . . There's various levels of Apostles and the Lord was showing that. . . . out of This Movement there would be 35 apostles. . .that will be of the highest level of apostolic ministry. . .the whole government of this movement in its highest level in all places it goes. . . .the government rests on Apostles and Prophets......Though I believe there will be hundreds of apostles in this movement and every movement will have its apostles and prophets, I believe God, He's merging Apostles in a number of movements now and He's going to add prophets to the prophets that are already there and He's going to bring us to higher statures." (Visions & Revelations, Kansas City Fellowship.)


When someone starts talking to you about Apostles, they're saying that someone has authority over _you_ in spiritual matters and in all matters.

Yeah...they have Dominion...if you let 'em.

The article is called "Dominion Theology and Joel's Army".



Exactly! Remember, if it walks like a Dominionist...talks like a Dominionist...well you get the rest



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 10:35:16 AM)

quote:

When I was reading this post Saturday, I was almost in disbelief at this particular response. Rather than it being "Done" or even near done, there is no disavowal in the link, and there likely never will be.

This is what happens when we have Christian believers who wander into the quagmire of Joyner/Bickle/NAR/Elijah List religion. Criticism only comes from those who are in need of being critiqued themselves, is the mentality.

You have a group that is dedicated to the idea that turning away from what's been shown to be wrong (what they've been caught on) is all that's needed, rather than following the Biblical admonition.

Deuteronomy 18:22

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Well, I should congratulate you on actually offering a rebuttal. However, this is once again an empty proof-text that is being used to prove opinion. The very fact that there was an admission that some of the criticism is valid means that something has been learned. You are forgetting that this means that to some degree people who criticize the KCP moment in time were correct according to Mike Bickle. If what you are still worried about is that there isn't a massive "oh what I wretch I am!" statement, you are really expecting too much. Why? Because if we were to start going over your doctrines, teachings and other multifarious public interactions, I'm sure that we would find a few blemishes as well. It isn't a matter of criticism "only coming from those who need critiquing themselves", but it is a matter of criticism that is offered in a spirit of fellowship as opposed to a spirit of sadistic pleasure.

As you made perfectly clear by your use of your proof-text, it isn't merely a turning away from wrong doctrine that you are searching for... rather, it is a conforming to what you believe to be correct doctrine. Honestly, that isn't exactly helpful because I'm not willing to accept you as the objective standard of all doctrine. Not that it is anything personal, I just don't have that much faith in humanity. The really fun part of Deuteronomy 18 is verse 22 gets held aloft as the standard of a "prophet", to the glossing over of verse 23 that says if a thing does come to pass and that prophet says "let us go after other gods" then he is to be stoned. What does that tell me? Focusing merely on accuracy is just as much of a danger as is not paying attention at all.

However, I am encouraged that this is the ONE thing you still had a stomach to argue about after my last response.
quote:

Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.
Uh, not really. I have written a couple for my blog, but that is about the extent of my expertise in that particular area. Any particular reason for asking?
quote:

Who's talking about(sp) Bickle's finances(sp)? This thread is about his heretical doctrines
If you look further up the thread, you will see that sir wintery leveled several charges about the great financial scam that Mike Bickle and IHOP-KC "obviously must be".
quote:

"In January 2002, the Word of the Lord came, saying, 'I am raising up a global Bridegroom fast; ask Me to release one hundred million believers worldwide to come before Me in one accord for three days each month until I return.' "

It does not surprise me that this "word" appears unsigned on the IHOP website.

LINK

Here we have the IHOP website telling us that "God" is saying to someone to ask Him to "release one hundred million believers". To "release" them? A vague usage of "binding and loosing", but where are they being held captive? They are believers...so God wants them "in one accord for three days"?

No. This is what happens when we have a Bible-like wording being used to make something sound like "the Word of the Lord".
Okay... so let me see the logic here... IHOP-KC should not be making prophetic claims because of who gave them. Here, IHOP-KC publishes a prophetic word that was relevant to our ministry with no indication who gave it... and it is still wrong? Intriguing. Basically, you do not trust anything that smacks of the prophetic. As delightful an idea as that may be to the human intellect, let me explain your misconceptions.

By not giving the name of the speaker, it should be clear to the reader that the person giving the word is irrelevant in the perspective of the ministry. If we truly believe in the priesthood of all believers, that shouldn't be a big hurdle. Secondly, if something is prophetic and not merely a good idea, then yes, it is God giving that mandate. Third, the term "release one hundred million believers" is not actually a reference to the "binding and loosing" bit in Matthew. Rather, it is a term that gets used to ask God to "raise up, establish, bring forth" (to use the amplified language) something. Once again, you have to ask yourself... if there were 100 million Christians who all spent three days fasting as the Body of Christ, would that be a bad thing? If your answer is yes, I would suggest you take a gander at your New Testament again.
quote:

It's also blatant Dominionism. You know that little heresy that Bickle and IHOP deny they practice
Sir, the only way on God's green Earth to read dominionism into the example you have quoted is to approach it with a highly biased mind that is expecting to find it there. How is God telling someone to ask Him to raise up 100 million believers to fast and pray ACTUALLY a dominionist teaching? It is not related to taking over governments, restoring nature (per se), or even establishing righteousness in the unsaved populations of the earth. Once again, I find that you are arguing against a phantom that does not exist in the real world.
quote:

Here's an article with quotes from Bickle and Bob Jones and much more.
LINK

quote:


Mike Bickle also connected with Kansas City Prophets spoke of the anointed men who will represent this New Wave.

"There's Apostles, there's Imminent Apostles and there's MOST IMMINENT APOSTLES. . . . There's various levels of Apostles and the Lord was showing that. . . . out of This Movement there would be 35 apostles. . .that will be of the highest level of apostolic ministry. . .the whole government of this movement in its highest level in all places it goes. . . .the government rests on Apostles and Prophets......Though I believe there will be hundreds of apostles in this movement and every movement will have its apostles and prophets, I believe God, He's merging Apostles in a number of movements now and He's going to add prophets to the prophets that are already there and He's going to bring us to higher statures." (Visions & Revelations, Kansas City Fellowship.)



When someone starts talking to you about Apostles, they're saying that someone has authority over _you_ in spiritual matters and in all matters.

Yeah...they have Dominion...if you let 'em.

The article is called "Dominion Theology and Joel's Army".
As much as I would love to rip this article to shreds and use it for kindling this winter, I am not arguing with the author of the article, I am arguing with you. On that note, I am going to clarify several points that the article you quoted make in error.

First, the "old ways" of the church are not necessarily "righteousness and consecration". Rather, the old paths are Christology and intimacy with God. In that statement alone, I can tell that the author of the article is approaching Christianity from the rather typical "grit your teeth and do better" train of thought that has plagued the American Church for the last 150 years.

Secondly, the article fails to distinguish between the usage of the term "Joel's Army" in the Latter Rain movement of 1950's and the usage of the same by Bob Jones and Mike Bickle in the 1980's. When Bob Jones and Mike Bickle use the term, they are not referring to either of the physical armies that are represented in Joel 2, but rather are referring to a company of believers that purposefully live out the mandate of fasting, prayer, and weeping between the porch and the altar that God may have mercy. In this, the author actually does his own cause great disservice in that he has failed to distinguish which enemy he is fighting against, and has shown his own lack of research into his sources. FAIL

Thirdly, I have no problem believing that there will be Apostles. Why? Because I don't really have a problem with the idea of authority. Much the Anarchist that I am, I also have a very realistic sense of the need for structure. We have bosses at our jobs, we have hierarchical family structures, we even have bosses in our social behavior (police officers), and yet we think that the one place we have no need of structure is in the church. However, it is our specific lack of structure that has lead to most of the doctrinal schisms in Western Evangelicalism in the first place. As I have told many of my friends, one of the main reasons I have fallen out of love with the Evangelical movement is that it is one of the few theosophical movements that simultaneously worships and crushes free thought.

Lastly, declaring that there will be a government structure is not specifically dominionist. Why? Because the Bible itself declares that there will be a Millennial Kingdom with an ordained bureaucracy. Jesus even told His disciples that they would sit on twelves thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. As cool of a promise as that is, you have to remember that there are currently 212 nations on the planet adding up to well over 5000 different ethnic groups, and Jesus dedicates 12 spots in His coming government to govern 12 clans of one single ethnic group. Once again, the complaint does not stand up to logic and should therefore be rejected.

Adam



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 11:18:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
If you look further up the thread, you will see that sir wintery leveled several charges about the great financial scam that Mike Bickle and IHOP-KC "obviously must be".


If you've been referring to this...

quote:

Place to stay, ker-ching, teachings, ker-ching, books and cd's, ker-ching....I hope to get ahold of one of my young friends and ask him how much he's spent out there so far.


In response to the assertions of what it's all about, I in the above draw attention back to fact that

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them.

One does not have to go to KC to pray, or to pay, or to draw near to God or be a part of "what God is doing".

A failed prophet looked at a pancake restaurant and said he believed there would be one of those of prayer--and Bickle follows it. That ain't no foundation to build on--or go to--or give to.

It makes no difference what Bickle does with it (although someone asserted above that he drove a twenty-two-old-car for thirty years--that's pushing the admiration a little)...twenty-somethings in the best years of their lives are wasting this time and their earning ability during it on a 24/7 branch of the KC prophets, Joyner/Bickle/Ingle/NAR version of religion.

So yes, I wonder how much an acquaintance of mine has spent, wonder if he's eating right...

And yes, it looks like a contrast to all the assertions of monkly prayer and devotion when I bring up the business end. There's no nebulous accusations here...here's the IHOP Housing page...LINK



tsnody2001 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 8:36:08 PM)

quote:

Mike has driven his 1987 clunker for 3 decades


uh... [sm=sadquestion.gif]



Page: <<   < prev  28 29 [30] 31 32   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI