RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (Full Version)

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tsnody2001 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 8:42:27 PM)

1987 + 30 = 2017



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 10:24:03 PM)

FurGod, are you willing at all to read Dr. Andrew Jackson's article?



rawr.ben -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 10:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsnody2001

1987 + 30 = 2017


He has a clunker from the future? Or . . . wait. He's in the future . . .or . . um . . .

darn it!



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/5/2009 11:13:56 PM)

quote:

In response to the assertions of what it's all about, I in the above draw attention back to fact that

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them.
So it isn't about what is happening with the money, but it is the fact that there is money changing hands? Now, I don't know what kind of ministry you think runs without money... but yes, there is a physical monetary reality to running a ministry of any kind. However, you are hitting this fact again, and doing so at the expense of the answers to the objections you have already raised. So either you have realized that those other objections were worthless, or you just don't have any more ammunition to fire... either way, the financial argument is nothing more than a smoke screen.
quote:

One does not have to go to KC to pray, or to pay, or to draw near to God or be a part of "what God is doing".
And no one said you had to either. In fact, I remember specifically telling you that the term "Global Prayer Movement" does not refer to IHOP-KC but to anyone who has given themselves to prayer and fasting in a focused way. So once again, you also arguing against a phantom that does not exist.
quote:

A failed prophet looked at a pancake restaurant and said he believed there would be one of those of prayer--and Bickle follows it. That ain't no foundation to build on--or go to--or give to.

It makes no difference what Bickle does with it (although someone asserted above that he drove a twenty-two-old-car for thirty years--that's pushing the admiration a little).
Aren't typos fun?

As for failed prophets, need I also remind you that Balaam was an actual, clinical false prophet, and yet he proclaimed three of the biggest (true) blessings over Israel since the Abrahamic Covenant?
quote:

twenty-somethings in the best years of their lives are wasting this time and their earning ability during it on a 24/7 branch of the KC prophets, Joyner/Bickle/Ingle/NAR version of religion.
So it all comes back to the mercenary concern of people who are voluntarily sacrificing of "the American Dream" for the sake of pursuing God? Are you really so opposed to people pursuing intimacy with God? I could be earning over $20,000 a year right now if I wanted to, and instead I'm laying that down to barely clear half of that so that I can pray more. If at the end of everything I couldn't afford an Xbox 360, my own house and a Lexus, but I had a fiery relationship with God, I win. As for my "earning ability", I can't take a house and a Lexus into the next age anyway.

If Mike Bickle isn't making a big profit off of the millions of dollars that flow through his hands, I really don't see what you have to complain about with what happens with my money. Yes, it is a counter-culture lifestyle... that is the point.
quote:

And yes, it looks like a contrast to all the assertions of monkly prayer and devotion when I bring up the business end. There's no nebulous accusations here...here's the IHOP Housing page...LINK
Considering that this is talking about the Herrnhut Apartment Complex that is owned by IHOP-KC, I, once again, do not see what you are complaining about. The prices are reasonable for apartments of that size, and charging for apartments is reasonably standard for landlords. So once again, away with the smokescreen.

I think the real problem that you seem to have is that IHOP-KC has influence among the 18-25 age bracket... also known as the age bracket that is fleeing the church in droves anyway. I would think that it is a relief to see a ministry that is doing so well in reaching the age group that is apostasizing the fastest in the United States.
quote:

FurGod, are you willing at all to read Dr. Andrew Jackson's article?
Peacebringer, if you have conclusions that you are wanting to discuss with me, feel free to bring them up. I am honestly not interested in arguing with Dr. Jackson because I am not talking with Dr. Jackson. I have had many people try to convince me that the idea of the House of Prayer is evil, but so far there has not been an argument that has actually addressed the doctrines as they have been presented, and instead argues with what the author seems the doctrines are intended to be. If you want me to be perfectly honest, I'm not really interested in Dr. Jackson's article... just like I'm not really interested in reading Richard Dawkins' "Greatest Show on Earth".

Adam



ManimalX -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/6/2009 12:04:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:

Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.
Uh, not really. I have written a couple for my blog, but that is about the extent of my expertise in that particular area. Any particular reason for asking?


I read a recent review on a Christian movie-review site and I thought I recognized the reviewer's name as yours (at least, what I thought your last name was from what my brother Ben told me... I may have remembered wrong).

No biggie, just curious [:D]


My friend Andrea and another friend Jerome just got back from a week stay. They are completely invigorated and rested and reengaged in God's plans for their lives, it is always nice to be around the energy folks bring back from IHOP-KC.

Everything going OK down there? Need me to mount a rescue operation to come save you from the evil satanic cult of Mike Bickle? [;)]



ManimalX -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/6/2009 12:10:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsnody2001

quote:

Mike has driven his 1987 clunker for 3 decades


uh... [sm=sadquestion.gif]


Obviously a typo. My apologies.

Make that "2" decades [:)]

THe point is still valid, however. Mike and IHOP aren't hucksters looking for a snake-oil buck. Rather, he is a generous godly man as evidenced by his insistence on a low wage, his personal frugality, and his charity.

So, folks can keep making ignorant accusations of "ker-ching", but there is just nothing to it.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/6/2009 7:49:20 AM)

quote:

Everything going OK down there? Need me to mount a rescue operation to come save you from the evil satanic cult of Mike Bickle?
Heh, all quiet on the Western Front... and nary a sign of Koolaid as far as the eye can see...

Yeah, I've had some limited interaction with your brother Ben. Awesome guy... but being on the NightWatch, I rarely see him.

Adam



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/6/2009 9:03:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirwintery

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them


That's a concern of mine - the money that is being given to support self-described missionaries who are mostly cloistered at IHOP-KC. I would think that with everyone having money pressures right now that other organizations would have a higher priority as far as our giving (starting with the local church).

The interns' time, for example seems mostly spent in IHOP-centric bible studies/teachings and work assignments at IHOP HQ. According to the young person who I know interning there, they spend a few hours a week doing something called "outreach" but I have no idea what that actually means.



tsnody2001 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/6/2009 6:06:06 PM)

quote:

As for failed prophets, need I also remind you that Balaam was an actual, clinical false prophet, and yet he proclaimed three of the biggest (true) blessings over Israel since the Abrahamic Covenant?


Is that an actual defense of Bickle's "prophetic" ministry? That is like saying, "I know Bickle is a false prophet, but so was Balaam, and yet..." What about the false, or unfulfilled, prophecies Bickle and his ilk have given over the years?



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/7/2009 8:11:20 AM)

quote:



That's a concern of mine - the money that is being given to support self-described missionaries who are mostly cloistered at IHOP-KC. I would think that with everyone having money pressures right now that other organizations would have a higher priority as far as our giving (starting with the local church).

The interns' time, for example seems mostly spent in IHOP-centric bible studies/teachings and work assignments at IHOP HQ. According to the young person who I know interning there, they spend a few hours a week doing something called "outreach" but I have no idea what that actually means.
So what is your actual concern? If Americans are fleeing the church, the establishment is losing their donation money anyway. So here is the question that I will phrase to you:

In your own signature, you state America's need for revival and ask if people will pray for it. So, will you give to ensure that a building and staff can be maintained that there can be three to four services a week hosted at the local church, or to fund people who have so bought into the idea that the world needs revival that they are sacrificing almost everything to pray for it?

I know a bit about the internships, and they do have several outreach opportunities. For the Fire in the Night interns specifically, they go over to the Hope City outreach every Monday evening to host a prayer meeting in the inner-city and feed the homeless afterwards. By the nature of their schedule, the OneThing internship has a bit more in the way of outreach time, but that is mostly because the primary mandate of the NightWatch is to maintain the sacred assembly during the time that everyone else is asleep. Once again, what are you actually concerned about?
quote:

Is that an actual defense of Bickle's "prophetic" ministry? That is like saying, "I know Bickle is a false prophet, but so was Balaam, and yet..." What about the false, or unfulfilled, prophecies Bickle and his ilk have given over the years?
tsnody, please take the quoted comment in the spirit that it is offered. Sir Wintery made an indirect quote of Bob Jones and Paul Cain (because both gave the same word) and declared them false prophets in an attempt to invalidate IHOP-KC. My point is that even a stopped clock in right twice a day. However, the thing that should be noted is that that specific prophecy came true. There is an International House of Pancakes in Grandview at Truman Corners... directly across the highway from the Truman family farm (which IHOP-KC recently acquired) where IHOP-KC is already beginning to develop for the sake of building the new complex. So regardless of your view of Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, or IHOP-KC... that word has come to pass. There is a house of prayer in Grandview, Missouri, and there has been for 10 years. Prophecy is always proven after the fact... just take a look at Daniel 9-11.

Adam



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/7/2009 8:21:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

In response to the assertions of what it's all about, I in the above draw attention back to fact that

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them.
So it isn't about what is happening with the money, but it is the fact that there is money changing hands? Now, I don't know what kind of ministry you think runs without money... but yes, there is a physical monetary reality to running a ministry of any kind. However, you are hitting this fact again, and doing so at the expense of the answers to the objections you have already raised. So either you have realized that those other objections were worthless, or you just don't have any more ammunition to fire... either way, the financial argument is nothing more than a smoke screen.
quote:

One does not have to go to KC to pray, or to pay, or to draw near to God or be a part of "what God is doing".
And no one said you had to either. In fact, I remember specifically telling you that the term "Global Prayer Movement" does not refer to IHOP-KC but to anyone who has given themselves to prayer and fasting in a focused way. So once again, you also arguing against a phantom that does not exist.
quote:

A failed prophet looked at a pancake restaurant and said he believed there would be one of those of prayer--and Bickle follows it. That ain't no foundation to build on--or go to--or give to.

It makes no difference what Bickle does with it (although someone asserted above that he drove a twenty-two-old-car for thirty years--that's pushing the admiration a little).
Aren't typos fun?

As for failed prophets, need I also remind you that Balaam was an actual, clinical false prophet, and yet he proclaimed three of the biggest (true) blessings over Israel since the Abrahamic Covenant?
quote:

twenty-somethings in the best years of their lives are wasting this time and their earning ability during it on a 24/7 branch of the KC prophets, Joyner/Bickle/Ingle/NAR version of religion.
So it all comes back to the mercenary concern of people who are voluntarily sacrificing of "the American Dream" for the sake of pursuing God? Are you really so opposed to people pursuing intimacy with God? I could be earning over $20,000 a year right now if I wanted to, and instead I'm laying that down to barely clear half of that so that I can pray more. If at the end of everything I couldn't afford an Xbox 360, my own house and a Lexus, but I had a fiery relationship with God, I win. As for my "earning ability", I can't take a house and a Lexus into the next age anyway.

If Mike Bickle isn't making a big profit off of the millions of dollars that flow through his hands, I really don't see what you have to complain about with what happens with my money. Yes, it is a counter-culture lifestyle... that is the point.
quote:

And yes, it looks like a contrast to all the assertions of monkly prayer and devotion when I bring up the business end. There's no nebulous accusations here...here's the IHOP Housing page...LINK
Considering that this is talking about the Herrnhut Apartment Complex that is owned by IHOP-KC, I, once again, do not see what you are complaining about. The prices are reasonable for apartments of that size, and charging for apartments is reasonably standard for landlords. So once again, away with the smokescreen.

I think the real problem that you seem to have is that IHOP-KC has influence among the 18-25 age bracket... also known as the age bracket that is fleeing the church in droves anyway. I would think that it is a relief to see a ministry that is doing so well in reaching the age group that is apostasizing the fastest in the United States.
quote:

FurGod, are you willing at all to read Dr. Andrew Jackson's article?
Peacebringer, if you have conclusions that you are wanting to discuss with me, feel free to bring them up. I am honestly not interested in arguing with Dr. Jackson because I am not talking with Dr. Jackson. I have had many people try to convince me that the idea of the House of Prayer is evil, but so far there has not been an argument that has actually addressed the doctrines as they have been presented, and instead argues with what the author seems the doctrines are intended to be. If you want me to be perfectly honest, I'm not really interested in Dr. Jackson's article... just like I'm not really interested in reading Richard Dawkins' "Greatest Show on Earth".

Adam
Adam, then the point here is you really are not interested in truth or even reading someone who took a balanced view of forerunner theology, even talked to Dr. Jackson. It was not about argumentation but rather encouraging you to read a balanced article on the matter. Rather, you have your set views and just want to argue. You have your mind made up and not willing to engage any further, just argue. You say no one has addressed doctrine, Dr. Jackson did so in his article, which you have no interest in reading. And personally if you do not have the interest in clear open discussion and unwilling to read a balanced perspective from a man who spent time at IHOP and even talked with Mike Bickle, then I have no real interest in further discussion with you. You seem to be falling into this style of response
quote:

The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.
responses to lakeland



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/7/2009 8:28:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:

Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.
Uh, not really. I have written a couple for my blog, but that is about the extent of my expertise in that particular area. Any particular reason for asking?


I read a recent review on a Christian movie-review site and I thought I recognized the reviewer's name as yours (at least, what I thought your last name was from what my brother Ben told me... I may have remembered wrong).

No biggie, just curious [:D]


My friend Andrea and another friend Jerome just got back from a week stay. They are completely invigorated and rested and reengaged in God's plans for their lives, it is always nice to be around the energy folks bring back from IHOP-KC.

Everything going OK down there? Need me to mount a rescue operation to come save you from the evil satanic cult of Mike Bickle? [;)]

I would encourage you to look at the Dr. Jackson article, just send me a PM with email. (I cannot copy and paste as it is a CRJ published bit).
Here is a point about what you say here, experience is not a determinate of truth. SOmeone can be invigorated going to a Catholic church, it does not change the untruths there does it?



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/10/2009 9:19:01 AM)

quote:

Adam, then the point here is you really are not interested in truth or even reading someone who took a balanced view of forerunner theology, even talked to Dr. Jackson. It was not about argumentation but rather encouraging you to read a balanced article on the matter. Rather, you have your set views and just want to argue. You have your mind made up and not willing to engage any further, just argue.
Peacebringer... as I said, if you have conclusions you are wishing to discuss, please bring them up. If I were talking to the honorable Dr. Jackson, I would be more than interested to hear his point of view. Being the hopeless cynic that I am, I find the idea of a "balanced" article reasonably laughable. The fact that I am continuing this discussion indicates that I am willing to engage further. However, your response here implies that I am in need of being saved from an untruth that I must obviously have been duped into and fails to take into account the idea that I may have thought through my decisions and come to semi-reasonable conclusions. So who really has made their mind up and refuses to engage further?
quote:

You say no one has addressed doctrine, Dr. Jackson did so in his article, which you have no interest in reading.
If you remember, sir, I actually said that people who have argued against the House of Prayer have done so by arguing against the doctrines as they are perceived to be, and not as how they are actually presented. Once again, if I was actually discussing this topic with Dr. Jackson, I would be very interested in his opinion. It takes no effort to pull up an article written by someone with a degree... it takes a lot of effort to digest the information they present and come to an independent opinion. That is what I am trying to dig at.
quote:

And personally if you do not have the interest in clear open discussion and unwilling to read a balanced perspective from a man who spent time at IHOP and even talked with Mike Bickle, then I have no real interest in further discussion with you.
"clear, open discussion" Translation: listen to me tell you how wrong you are. If you decide to disengage from a conversation because I am more interested in your thoughts (as the person engaged in an actual conversation) than I am in that of an academic scholar (as balanced as he may seem to be), that is thoroughly your decision.
quote:

You seem to be falling into this style of response

quote:

The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.
And this is where the real breakdown in communication occurs. You are offering an article that is clearly intended to be some kind of rebuttal under the guise of "fair and balanced". Allow me to say that impartial objectivity is a myth of the modernist mindset. Based on the quote you have here, I can say that you aren't interested in an engaging conversation either because you have thoroughly made up your mind that I am believing in open deception. So before getting haughty about "your scholar" being rejected (because they aren't here), please consider that you have done the exact deed that you accuse me of having perpetrated. Rather simple, no?

Adam



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/10/2009 10:41:41 AM)

Adam, it really is a shame that you are unwilling to read Dr. Jackson's article. If peacebringer basically agrees with Dr. Jackson's article, aren't you basically asking peacebringer to replicate Dr. Jackson's work in order for you to consider it legitimate material for discussion?

You wrote,
quote:


I actually said that people who have argued against the House of Prayer have done so by arguing against the doctrines as they are perceived to be, and not as how they are actually presented.


You have not read Dr. Jackson's article, so you can't come to a direct conclusion about the strength and accuracy of his arguments, can you? Has someone at IHOP responded to this article?

peacebringer, whether or not Adam is willing to actually consider Dr. Jackson's (or anyone's) evaluation, perhaps we could bring up some of the significant points, in order to discuss it here. I would think that short quotes and synopsis, while pointing people to the original article as the source, wouldn't violate copyright or TOS, right?



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/13/2009 7:40:24 AM)

quote:

Adam, it really is a shame that you are unwilling to read Dr. Jackson's article.
and how would that be different from me suggesting that you read a book of Mike Bickle's? How is that different from a Muslim suggesting that you need to read the Koran? And yet none of this addresses the issue that I raised, that I am being told that an article that is clearly some sort of rebuttal is "fair and balanced" and yet a reasonable defense of the same is believing in open deception.
quote:

If peacebringer basically agrees with Dr. Jackson's article, aren't you basically asking peacebringer to replicate Dr. Jackson's work in order for you to consider it legitimate material for discussion?
Not at all. I am asking for independent thought. If someone's opinions are Biblical (and hence, valid) it should presentable in a Biblical context. If someone's opinions are pure logic or philosophy, then I'm really not that interested when the topic is purported to be theological.
quote:

You have not read Dr. Jackson's article, so you can't come to a direct conclusion about the strength and accuracy of his arguments, can you?
Quite correct, I do not have direct knowledge of Dr. Jackson's article. The phrase you are objecting to is a general statement. I'm sure there are exceptions... thus far, I have yet to see a substantial one. As evidenced by the arguments already in this thread, most of the objections are misplaced.
quote:

Has someone at IHOP responded to this article?
Not as far as I know. But then again, I don't know of a single ministry that answers every single accusation and critic that approaches them either.

Adam



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/13/2009 9:40:20 AM)

quote:


and how would that be different from me suggesting that you read a book of Mike Bickle's?

It wasn't suggested that you read a book, but simply consider reading an article.

Adam, while I haven't read a book of Mike Bickle's, I have listened to a number of his messages, read sermon notes, and read articles by him. Generally, when I am concerned about what I am hearing/reading regarding a high-profile figure in the Christian community, I take a look at original source information as well as articles written by critics.

quote:


How is that different from a Muslim suggesting that you need to read the Koran?


Because Dr. Jackson is a professed fellow follower of Christ? Because as a professed fellow follower of Christ, the focus of his article is inside the body of Christ?

And, I think the hypothetical Muslim in your hypothetical situation would have a point by suggesting you needed to read the Koran if the hypothetical you were showing signs of ignorance in the hypothetical discussion. Of course, there would be additional ways that someone who was lacking in knowledge about Islam could gain more knowledge.

quote:


quote:


If peacebringer basically agrees with Dr. Jackson's article, aren't you basically asking peacebringer to replicate Dr. Jackson's work in order for you to consider it legitimate material for discussion?

Not at all. I am asking for independent thought. If someone's opinions are Biblical (and hence, valid) it should presentable in a Biblical context.


But you admit in your post that you are completely unfamiliar with Dr. Jackson's article...so you have no idea if the biblical context was presented or not. And why does the opinion have to be "independent" to be valid and biblical? If that was necessary, we'd never be able to consider the opinion of a teacher, pastor...or fellow Christian.

Honestly, you don't want to read the article. I don't know why, but you're not coming up with strong reasons, IMO, why that is the case. You certainly have no obligation to be open and upfront with us about your reasons, but are you being honest with yourself?



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/13/2009 2:42:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

Adam, then the point here is you really are not interested in truth or even reading someone who took a balanced view of forerunner theology, even talked to Dr. Jackson. It was not about argumentation but rather encouraging you to read a balanced article on the matter. Rather, you have your set views and just want to argue. You have your mind made up and not willing to engage any further, just argue.
Peacebringer... as I said, if you have conclusions you are wishing to discuss, please bring them up. If I were talking to the honorable Dr. Jackson, I would be more than interested to hear his point of view. Being the hopeless cynic that I am, I find the idea of a "balanced" article reasonably laughable. The fact that I am continuing this discussion indicates that I am willing to engage further. However, your response here implies that I am in need of being saved from an untruth that I must obviously have been duped into and fails to take into account the idea that I may have thought through my decisions and come to semi-reasonable conclusions. So who really has made their mind up and refuses to engage further?
quote:

You say no one has addressed doctrine, Dr. Jackson did so in his article, which you have no interest in reading.
If you remember, sir, I actually said that people who have argued against the House of Prayer have done so by arguing against the doctrines as they are perceived to be, and not as how they are actually presented. Once again, if I was actually discussing this topic with Dr. Jackson, I would be very interested in his opinion. It takes no effort to pull up an article written by someone with a degree... it takes a lot of effort to digest the information they present and come to an independent opinion. That is what I am trying to dig at.
quote:

And personally if you do not have the interest in clear open discussion and unwilling to read a balanced perspective from a man who spent time at IHOP and even talked with Mike Bickle, then I have no real interest in further discussion with you.
"clear, open discussion" Translation: listen to me tell you how wrong you are. If you decide to disengage from a conversation because I am more interested in your thoughts (as the person engaged in an actual conversation) than I am in that of an academic scholar (as balanced as he may seem to be), that is thoroughly your decision.
quote:

You seem to be falling into this style of response

quote:

The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.
And this is where the real breakdown in communication occurs. You are offering an article that is clearly intended to be some kind of rebuttal under the guise of "fair and balanced". Allow me to say that impartial objectivity is a myth of the modernist mindset. Based on the quote you have here, I can say that you aren't interested in an engaging conversation either because you have thoroughly made up your mind that I am believing in open deception. So before getting haughty about "your scholar" being rejected (because they aren't here), please consider that you have done the exact deed that you accuse me of having perpetrated. Rather simple, no?

Adam

Adam, sorry if it came off as entirely dissmissive, but the article is well done and sound. You do not want to read it. You want me to discuss concerns without the greater context. And I am not really interested in discussion on mike bickle because I am already engaged in other extensive conversations. I popped in and offered the article because he gives a good treatment in light of the Bible. It primarily addresses forerunner eschatology. Basically you come off as "Mickle Bickle Is great and just misunderstood and I do not want to hear anything of the contrary." When I got time, I will post of quotes from the article, it is much better if someone reads things within the context of the whole.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/16/2009 9:47:27 AM)

quote:

It wasn't suggested that you read a book, but simply consider reading an article.

Adam, while I haven't read a book of Mike Bickle's, I have listened to a number of his messages, read sermon notes, and read articles by him. Generally, when I am concerned about what I am hearing/reading regarding a high-profile figure in the Christian community, I take a look at original source information as well as articles written by critics.
First off, Mike Bickle isn't exactly "high profile". You have to do quite a bit of digging to find him. Secondly, since the critics' opinions are regurgitated on a fairly regular basis on a number of different sites, it doesn't really bother me to find out that there is one I haven't seen.

The difference between you and myself, sir, is that when I am concerned about what I am hearing or reading from someone, I take the source material to God and pull out my Bible. I have heard a number of arguments related to forerunner eschatology, and most of them are incredibly lackluster.
quote:

Because Dr. Jackson is a professed fellow follower of Christ? Because as a professed fellow follower of Christ, the focus of his article is inside the body of Christ?

And, I think the ... Muslim in your ... situation would have a point by suggesting you needed to read the Koran if ... you were showing signs of ignorance in the ... discussion. Of course, there would be additional ways that someone who was lacking in knowledge about Islam could gain more knowledge.
Cutting away the various "hypothetical"s... The problem is that you are looking down on me for not chomping at the bit for reading something written by someone whose opinion really does not matter to me that is most likely repeating things I have already heard and already evaluated the validity of. The point is that the Muslim in that situation is claiming that I need to read their holy book to understand where they are coming from, when in fact it would only strengthen my opinion. Comparatively, I am being told "shame on me" because I'm not interested in reading yet another critic... even when there are plenty of critics in this forum. I don't spend my time chasing down every critical opinion there is to be found because I don't really find that beneficial to anyone.
quote:

But you admit in your post that you are completely unfamiliar with Dr. Jackson's article...so you have no idea if the biblical context was presented or not.
Sir... there are a limited number of arguments to be had before all the various options have been exhausted. So why is this article such a sore spot then? Considering that the only real point I would have in reading this article would be to bring the information back here to argue with it, there really isn't a point. So I really find it interesting that you are insisting that I read this particular article as opposed to any of thousands of other articles. I am quite sure that Dr. Jackson's article makes a very solid attempt at providing thorough context from the surrounding Biblical passages. That isn't what concerns me. What concerns me is that most of the argument that have been given do not actually argue with the doctrines as they have been presented by the speaker, but as the author perceives that they are intended to be. And that is not helpful in any regard.
quote:

And why does the opinion have to be "independent" to be valid and biblical? If that was necessary, we'd never be able to consider the opinion of a teacher, pastor...or fellow Christian.
I did not say an opinion "has" to be independent to be valid and biblical. If it did, then theology would be constantly changing. My point is that it is incredibly easy to pull up a scholarly opinion. It is exponentially more difficult to read the information, digest the information, and come to an educated opinion on the topic. That is what we like to call "free thought". That is why I will not quote Mike Bickle when I can afford it. If I can't Biblically support it, I'm not going to fight over it. Secondly, if I agree with the scholar, the opinion I present is not going to be theirs, but it will be mine. That is what I am trying to get out. If you have an actual opinion, please own it and present it. If all you have is something written by someone that disagrees with something else... I'm really not interested because I'm not arguing with that someone. Once again, among all the other critics, what is one more?
quote:

Honestly, you don't want to read the article. I don't know why, but you're not coming up with strong reasons, IMO, why that is the case. You certainly have no obligation to be open and upfront with us about your reasons, but are you being honest with yourself?
Is that supposed to be convictory? Your opinion is that my reasons for not being really interested in this particular article "aren't strong enough". That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. My opinion is that this is one article among how many countless others? At last, we have an actual quantifiable disagreement, which means we can start an actual discussion. You think my reasons aren't good enough... fine. But that doesn't address the issue we are having in this thread which is the validity of IHOP-KC and not your source. My opinion is that I have heard more arguments (good, bad, and ugly) attempting to dissuade me from my opinion than I like to count, and nothing has actually stood yet. Frankly, I don't think that one more article is going to make that much of a difference.
quote:

Adam, sorry if it came off as entirely dissmissive, but the article is well done and sound. You do not want to read it. You want me to discuss concerns without the greater context.
Remembering that "well done and sound" is mostly a matter of opinion and not actually an objective statement... If you have concerns, you should be able to voice them in a clear and concise way. If not, then you really have yet to develop those thoughts into your own and all you really have is a gut-level reaction. Keeping that in mind, one gut-level reaction is exactly as valid as another.
quote:

I popped in and offered the article because he gives a good treatment in light of the Bible. It primarily addresses forerunner eschatology.
That is what worries me. Most "treatments" of forerunner eschatology either decry it as a smokescreen for the Latter Rain movement or, as soxfan attempted to do, as dominionism. Almost all other reasonable disagreements would break down in terms of when the tribulation happens, the hermaneutics of Revelation, the doctrine of Israel, or of the placement of the Millenium... and we already have threads for most of those topics.
quote:

Basically you come off as "Mickle Bickle Is great and just misunderstood and I do not want to hear anything of the contrary."
If that is what you have gotten out of my responses, then you are truly not paying attention. I have said in several responses that I disagree with Mike Bickle on some stuff too. But I don't agree with anyone 100% on almost anything anyway. I'm still waiting for a reasonable attack as to why IHOP-KC is evil... and as yet there hasn't been one.

Adam



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/16/2009 1:01:28 PM)

Adam, I am a "ma'am," not a sir. I realize that you might not have known that. A more substantive response will need to wait as I am otherwise occupied right now.



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/17/2009 10:36:02 AM)

Mike Bickle says:

"Therefore, we need not fear the Tribulation as powerless victims who are seeking to escape it; rather, the saints will be engaging in authoritative prayer, releasing power and judgment against Satan and his Antichrist." source: Facebook Official Mike Bickle Page (this post)

Revelation 13:7-10 says:

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (emphasis added)

Daniel 7:21 says:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them....

Bickle appears to paint his own picture when compared to these Scriptures.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/19/2009 6:49:00 AM)

quote:

Revelation 13:7-10 says:

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (emphasis added)

Daniel 7:21 says:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them....

Bickle appears to paint his own picture when compared to these Scriptures.
When those scriptures are taken in isolation, you are quite right. However, your argument does not take into account the role of Moses in releasing the judgment of God on Egypt, of that of Elijah declaring the drought on Israel while the Prophets of Yawheh were being slain by Jezebel. As a Bible teacher once said, "The point of the End Times is not necessarily to keep up alive."

Secondly, your scriptures do not contradict Mike's premise unless you read a meaning into them. Yes, the Beast will be given power over the saints to kill them. However, Revelation 12 also says that the church will "overcome" the Beast by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and by not loving their lives so much as to avoid death. Really, it is all in how you are defining the term "victorious". In that specific context, Mike is generally arguing against the escapism of the pre-tribulation rapture and the fear of the end of the age. His point is not "Behold the Manifest Sons of God" (which is serious error), but his point is that the church is not going to be sitting cowering in basements waiting for the whole thing to blow over, but we will be partnering with God in the way that the saints of old did in releasing the prophesied judgments. So this argument is a baseless charge as well.

Adam



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/19/2009 10:50:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

Revelation 13:7-10 says:

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (emphasis added)

Daniel 7:21 says:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them....

Bickle appears to paint his own picture when compared to these Scriptures.
When those scriptures are taken in isolation, you are quite right. However, your argument does not take into account the role of Moses in releasing the judgment of God on Egypt, of that of Elijah declaring the drought on Israel while the Prophets of Yawheh were being slain by Jezebel. As a Bible teacher once said, "The point of the End Times is not necessarily to keep up alive."

Secondly, your scriptures do not contradict Mike's premise unless you read a meaning into them. Yes, the Beast will be given power over the saints to kill them. However, Revelation 12 also says that the church will "overcome" the Beast by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and by not loving their lives so much as to avoid death. Really, it is all in how you are defining the term "victorious". In that specific context, Mike is generally arguing against the escapism of the pre-tribulation rapture and the fear of the end of the age. His point is not "Behold the Manifest Sons of God" (which is serious error), but his point is that the church is not going to be sitting cowering in basements waiting for the whole thing to blow over, but we will be partnering with God in the way that the saints of old did in releasing the prophesied judgments. So this argument is a baseless charge as well.

Adam


So Mike is not promoting the overcoming Manifest Sons, just that the church will become Moses and Elijah releasing judgments. Being defeated and killed and having patience and endurance in the situation stand in contrast to "releasing the prophesied judgments".

Seems to me some angels sound their trumpets to release the judgments in Revelation chapters 8 and 9.



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/19/2009 12:24:13 PM)

quote:

So Mike is not promoting the overcoming Manifest Sons, just that the church will become Moses and Elijah releasing judgments. Being defeated and killed and having patience and endurance in the situation stand in contrast to "releasing the prophesied judgments".

Seems to me some angels sound their trumpets to release the judgments in Revelation chapters 8 and 9.


Oh, but maybe the angels sound their trumpets only after they are released by the authoritative prayers [sm=biggrin.gif]



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/21/2009 2:39:50 AM)

quote:

So Mike is not promoting the overcoming Manifest Sons, just that the church will become Moses and Elijah releasing judgments. Being defeated and killed and having patience and endurance in the situation stand in contrast to "releasing the prophesied judgments".
Part one of your response, you are correct in that Mike is not promoting the "Manifest Sons of God" doctrine, and the point is not Moses and Elijah, but that the church will be operating in a similar role to them. With the outpouring of the Spirit in Joel 2:26-32, the church is going to be carrying more wisdom and revelation than they have had in any of the previous centuries. So yes, it is not unfeasible that the church is going to be the "Friend of God" just like Moses. Once again, not a problem.

quote:

Seems to me some angels sound their trumpets to release the judgments in Revelation chapters 8 and 9.
Following the fifth seal and the angel taking fire from the altar and throwing it to the earth, yes. In the fifth seal, the souls of the martyrs are under the altar (upon which the prayers of the church are offered) and crying out for justice and vengeance. Between the seventh seal and the first trumpet, an angel takes fire from this altar (which is burning the prayers of the saints), and throws it to the earth. This cry and that fire are why the rest of the judgments come It is right in the book of Revelation that prayer is intimately connected with the release of the trumpets.

So, what is your objection now?



peacebringer -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/21/2009 12:17:17 PM)

quote:

That is what worries me. Most "treatments" of forerunner eschatology either decry it as a smokescreen for the Latter Rain movement or, as soxfan attempted to do, as dominionism. Almost all other reasonable disagreements would break down in terms of when the tribulation happens, the hermaneutics of Revelation, the doctrine of Israel, or of the placement of the Millenium... and we already have threads for most of those topics.
So you avoid the article out of fear and simply won't engage. You have already reached a conclusion without further examination of the facts...



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