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ORIGINAL: tsnody2001

1987 + 30 = 2017

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In response to the assertions of what it's all about, I in the above draw attention back to fact that

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them.

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One does not have to go to KC to pray, or to pay, or to draw near to God or be a part of "what God is doing".

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A failed prophet looked at a pancake restaurant and said he believed there would be one of those of prayer--and Bickle follows it. That ain't no foundation to build on--or go to--or give to.

It makes no difference what Bickle does with it (although someone asserted above that he drove a twenty-two-old-car for thirty years--that's pushing the admiration a little).

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twenty-somethings in the best years of their lives are wasting this time and their earning ability during it on a 24/7 branch of the KC prophets, Joyner/Bickle/Ingle/NAR version of religion.

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And yes, it looks like a contrast to all the assertions of monkly prayer and devotion when I bring up the business end. There's no nebulous accusations here...here's the IHOP Housing page...LINK

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FurGod, are you willing at all to read Dr. Andrew Jackson's article?

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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

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Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.

Uh, not really. I have written a couple for my blog, but that is about the extent of my expertise in that particular area. Any particular reason for asking?

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ORIGINAL: tsnody2001

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Mike has driven his 1987 clunker for 3 decades

uh...

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Everything going OK down there? Need me to mount a rescue operation to come save you from the evil satanic cult of Mike Bickle?

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ORIGINAL: sirwintery

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them

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As for failed prophets, need I also remind you that Balaam was an actual, clinical false prophet, and yet he proclaimed three of the biggest (true) blessings over Israel since the Abrahamic Covenant?

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That's a concern of mine - the money that is being given to support self-described missionaries who are mostly cloistered at IHOP-KC. I would think that with everyone having money pressures right now that other organizations would have a higher priority as far as our giving (starting with the local church).

The interns' time, for example seems mostly spent in IHOP-centric bible studies/teachings and work assignments at IHOP HQ. According to the young person who I know interning there, they spend a few hours a week doing something called "outreach" but I have no idea what that actually means.

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Is that an actual defense of Bickle's "prophetic" ministry? That is like saying, "I know Bickle is a false prophet, but so was Balaam, and yet..." What about the false, or unfulfilled, prophecies Bickle and his ilk have given over the years?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

In response to the assertions of what it's all about, I in the above draw attention back to fact that

m o n e y

is indeed flowing to IHOP. Not only young Christians leaving their churches but taking the bucks, theirs or others' donations, with them.

So it isn't about what is happening with the money, but it is the fact that there is money changing hands? Now, I don't know what kind of ministry you think runs without money... but yes, there is a physical monetary reality to running a ministry of any kind. However, you are hitting this fact again, and doing so at the expense of the answers to the objections you have already raised. So either you have realized that those other objections were worthless, or you just don't have any more ammunition to fire... either way, the financial argument is nothing more than a smoke screen.

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One does not have to go to KC to pray, or to pay, or to draw near to God or be a part of "what God is doing".

And no one said you had to either. In fact, I remember specifically telling you that the term "Global Prayer Movement" does not refer to IHOP-KC but to anyone who has given themselves to prayer and fasting in a focused way. So once again, you also arguing against a phantom that does not exist.

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A failed prophet looked at a pancake restaurant and said he believed there would be one of those of prayer--and Bickle follows it. That ain't no foundation to build on--or go to--or give to.

It makes no difference what Bickle does with it (although someone asserted above that he drove a twenty-two-old-car for thirty years--that's pushing the admiration a little).

Aren't typos fun?

As for failed prophets, need I also remind you that Balaam was an actual, clinical false prophet, and yet he proclaimed three of the biggest (true) blessings over Israel since the Abrahamic Covenant?

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twenty-somethings in the best years of their lives are wasting this time and their earning ability during it on a 24/7 branch of the KC prophets, Joyner/Bickle/Ingle/NAR version of religion.

So it all comes back to the mercenary concern of people who are voluntarily sacrificing of "the American Dream" for the sake of pursuing God? Are you really so opposed to people pursuing intimacy with God? I could be earning over $20,000 a year right now if I wanted to, and instead I'm laying that down to barely clear half of that so that I can pray more. If at the end of everything I couldn't afford an Xbox 360, my own house and a Lexus, but I had a fiery relationship with God, I win. As for my "earning ability", I can't take a house and a Lexus into the next age anyway.

If Mike Bickle isn't making a big profit off of the millions of dollars that flow through his hands, I really don't see what you have to complain about with what happens with my money. Yes, it is a counter-culture lifestyle... that is the point.

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And yes, it looks like a contrast to all the assertions of monkly prayer and devotion when I bring up the business end. There's no nebulous accusations here...here's the IHOP Housing page...LINK

Considering that this is talking about the Herrnhut Apartment Complex that is owned by IHOP-KC, I, once again, do not see what you are complaining about. The prices are reasonable for apartments of that size, and charging for apartments is reasonably standard for landlords. So once again, away with the smokescreen.

I think the real problem that you seem to have is that IHOP-KC has influence among the 18-25 age bracket... also known as the age bracket that is fleeing the church in droves anyway. I would think that it is a relief to see a ministry that is doing so well in reaching the age group that is apostasizing the fastest in the United States.

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FurGod, are you willing at all to read Dr. Andrew Jackson's article?

Peacebringer, if you have conclusions that you are wanting to discuss with me, feel free to bring them up. I am honestly not interested in arguing with Dr. Jackson because I am not talking with Dr. Jackson. I have had many people try to convince me that the idea of the House of Prayer is evil, but so far there has not been an argument that has actually addressed the doctrines as they have been presented, and instead argues with what the author seems the doctrines are intended to be. If you want me to be perfectly honest, I'm not really interested in Dr. Jackson's article... just like I'm not really interested in reading Richard Dawkins' "Greatest Show on Earth".

Adam

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The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.

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ORIGINAL: ManimalX

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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

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Now, on a completely unrelated note: Adam, do you by chance write reviews for a certain Christian music and movie review site? You don't have to reply here. PM me if you want.

Uh, not really. I have written a couple for my blog, but that is about the extent of my expertise in that particular area. Any particular reason for asking?

I read a recent review on a Christian movie-review site and I thought I recognized the reviewer's name as yours (at least, what I thought your last name was from what my brother Ben told me... I may have remembered wrong).

No biggie, just curious


My friend Andrea and another friend Jerome just got back from a week stay. They are completely invigorated and rested and reengaged in God's plans for their lives, it is always nice to be around the energy folks bring back from IHOP-KC.

Everything going OK down there? Need me to mount a rescue operation to come save you from the evil satanic cult of Mike Bickle?

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Adam, then the point here is you really are not interested in truth or even reading someone who took a balanced view of forerunner theology, even talked to Dr. Jackson. It was not about argumentation but rather encouraging you to read a balanced article on the matter. Rather, you have your set views and just want to argue. You have your mind made up and not willing to engage any further, just argue.

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You say no one has addressed doctrine, Dr. Jackson did so in his article, which you have no interest in reading.

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And personally if you do not have the interest in clear open discussion and unwilling to read a balanced perspective from a man who spent time at IHOP and even talked with Mike Bickle, then I have no real interest in further discussion with you.

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You seem to be falling into this style of response

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The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.

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I actually said that people who have argued against the House of Prayer have done so by arguing against the doctrines as they are perceived to be, and not as how they are actually presented.

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Adam, it really is a shame that you are unwilling to read Dr. Jackson's article.

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If peacebringer basically agrees with Dr. Jackson's article, aren't you basically asking peacebringer to replicate Dr. Jackson's work in order for you to consider it legitimate material for discussion?

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You have not read Dr. Jackson's article, so you can't come to a direct conclusion about the strength and accuracy of his arguments, can you?

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Has someone at IHOP responded to this article?

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and how would that be different from me suggesting that you read a book of Mike Bickle's?

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How is that different from a Muslim suggesting that you need to read the Koran?

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If peacebringer basically agrees with Dr. Jackson's article, aren't you basically asking peacebringer to replicate Dr. Jackson's work in order for you to consider it legitimate material for discussion?

Not at all. I am asking for independent thought. If someone's opinions are Biblical (and hence, valid) it should presentable in a Biblical context.

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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

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Adam, then the point here is you really are not interested in truth or even reading someone who took a balanced view of forerunner theology, even talked to Dr. Jackson. It was not about argumentation but rather encouraging you to read a balanced article on the matter. Rather, you have your set views and just want to argue. You have your mind made up and not willing to engage any further, just argue.

Peacebringer... as I said, if you have conclusions you are wishing to discuss, please bring them up. If I were talking to the honorable Dr. Jackson, I would be more than interested to hear his point of view. Being the hopeless cynic that I am, I find the idea of a "balanced" article reasonably laughable. The fact that I am continuing this discussion indicates that I am willing to engage further. However, your response here implies that I am in need of being saved from an untruth that I must obviously have been duped into and fails to take into account the idea that I may have thought through my decisions and come to semi-reasonable conclusions. So who really has made their mind up and refuses to engage further?

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You say no one has addressed doctrine, Dr. Jackson did so in his article, which you have no interest in reading.

If you remember, sir, I actually said that people who have argued against the House of Prayer have done so by arguing against the doctrines as they are perceived to be, and not as how they are actually presented. Once again, if I was actually discussing this topic with Dr. Jackson, I would be very interested in his opinion. It takes no effort to pull up an article written by someone with a degree... it takes a lot of effort to digest the information they present and come to an independent opinion. That is what I am trying to dig at.

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And personally if you do not have the interest in clear open discussion and unwilling to read a balanced perspective from a man who spent time at IHOP and even talked with Mike Bickle, then I have no real interest in further discussion with you.

"clear, open discussion" Translation: listen to me tell you how wrong you are. If you decide to disengage from a conversation because I am more interested in your thoughts (as the person engaged in an actual conversation) than I am in that of an academic scholar (as balanced as he may seem to be), that is thoroughly your decision.

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You seem to be falling into this style of response

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The Pushers: These are people who have a theological investment in what they see happening. These are similar people to the The Connected. These people value the theology and doctrine promoting the deception and have difficulty accepting any opposing view and fill look for ways to dismiss any presented evidence.

And this is where the real breakdown in communication occurs. You are offering an article that is clearly intended to be some kind of rebuttal under the guise of "fair and balanced". Allow me to say that impartial objectivity is a myth of the modernist mindset. Based on the quote you have here, I can say that you aren't interested in an engaging conversation either because you have thoroughly made up your mind that I am believing in open deception. So before getting haughty about "your scholar" being rejected (because they aren't here), please consider that you have done the exact deed that you accuse me of having perpetrated. Rather simple, no?

Adam

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It wasn't suggested that you read a book, but simply consider reading an article.

Adam, while I haven't read a book of Mike Bickle's, I have listened to a number of his messages, read sermon notes, and read articles by him. Generally, when I am concerned about what I am hearing/reading regarding a high-profile figure in the Christian community, I take a look at original source information as well as articles written by critics.

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Because Dr. Jackson is a professed fellow follower of Christ? Because as a professed fellow follower of Christ, the focus of his article is inside the body of Christ?

And, I think the ... Muslim in your ... situation would have a point by suggesting you needed to read the Koran if ... you were showing signs of ignorance in the ... discussion. Of course, there would be additional ways that someone who was lacking in knowledge about Islam could gain more knowledge.

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But you admit in your post that you are completely unfamiliar with Dr. Jackson's article...so you have no idea if the biblical context was presented or not.

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And why does the opinion have to be "independent" to be valid and biblical? If that was necessary, we'd never be able to consider the opinion of a teacher, pastor...or fellow Christian.

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Honestly, you don't want to read the article. I don't know why, but you're not coming up with strong reasons, IMO, why that is the case. You certainly have no obligation to be open and upfront with us about your reasons, but are you being honest with yourself?

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Adam, sorry if it came off as entirely dissmissive, but the article is well done and sound. You do not want to read it. You want me to discuss concerns without the greater context.

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I popped in and offered the article because he gives a good treatment in light of the Bible. It primarily addresses forerunner eschatology.

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Basically you come off as "Mickle Bickle Is great and just misunderstood and I do not want to hear anything of the contrary."

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Revelation 13:7-10 says:

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (emphasis added)

Daniel 7:21 says:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them....

Bickle appears to paint his own picture when compared to these Scriptures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

quote:

Revelation 13:7-10 says:

He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

He who has an ear, let him hear.
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. (emphasis added)

Daniel 7:21 says:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them....

Bickle appears to paint his own picture when compared to these Scriptures.

When those scriptures are taken in isolation, you are quite right. However, your argument does not take into account the role of Moses in releasing the judgment of God on Egypt, of that of Elijah declaring the drought on Israel while the Prophets of Yawheh were being slain by Jezebel. As a Bible teacher once said, "The point of the End Times is not necessarily to keep up alive."

Secondly, your scriptures do not contradict Mike's premise unless you read a meaning into them. Yes, the Beast will be given power over the saints to kill them. However, Revelation 12 also says that the church will "overcome" the Beast by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and by not loving their lives so much as to avoid death. Really, it is all in how you are defining the term "victorious". In that specific context, Mike is generally arguing against the escapism of the pre-tribulation rapture and the fear of the end of the age. His point is not "Behold the Manifest Sons of God" (which is serious error), but his point is that the church is not going to be sitting cowering in basements waiting for the whole thing to blow over, but we will be partnering with God in the way that the saints of old did in releasing the prophesied judgments. So this argument is a baseless charge as well.

Adam

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So Mike is not promoting the overcoming Manifest Sons, just that the church will become Moses and Elijah releasing judgments. Being defeated and killed and having patience and endurance in the situation stand in contrast to "releasing the prophesied judgments".

Seems to me some angels sound their trumpets to release the judgments in Revelation chapters 8 and 9.

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So Mike is not promoting the overcoming Manifest Sons, just that the church will become Moses and Elijah releasing judgments. Being defeated and killed and having patience and endurance in the situation stand in contrast to "releasing the prophesied judgments".

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Seems to me some angels sound their trumpets to release the judgments in Revelation chapters 8 and 9.

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That is what worries me. Most "treatments" of forerunner eschatology either decry it as a smokescreen for the Latter Rain movement or, as soxfan attempted to do, as dominionism. Almost all other reasonable disagreements would break down in terms of when the tribulation happens, the hermaneutics of Revelation, the doctrine of Israel, or of the placement of the Millenium... and we already have threads for most of those topics.