RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (Full Version)

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SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 1:28:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lwr
You've defended tooth and nail things completely contradictory to the Bible in this forum, including Latter Rain movements, 'barking like a dog' and 'holy laughter' manifestations, unBiblical 'gifts', and false prophets. And now you're defending a ministry that literally 'grows' false prophets without even Biblically addressing the specific valid concerns that have been raised. The result is that I can't take what you say seriously.


I've never spoken about Latter rain movement - I don't even know what it is.

As to the 'barking like a dog' thing, I simply shared what Jesus told me from scripture about it and what God was doing in it. No one needs to believe me on that. That doesn't bother me.

Holy Laughter has not and cannot be proven as unbiblical unless you can show me a verse that says laughing hardily among christians in a gathering is a sin. You have yet to show me that.

And if you are referring to the interpretation of dreams as being unbiblical when it is the gift of the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom that God uses through a person to interpret, and the bible cleary shows several examples via Joseph and Daniel of God using people to interpret dreams, than it is not the biblical part you have a problem with, but the fact that the NT doesn't validate the OT by giving the same examples. I don't believe in Covenant Theology, so again we will just need to disagree on how we utilize scripture to tests things.

As for your idea of false prophets and the practical application of the gift of prophecy, unless you have the gift of prophecy yourself, then I think you don't have a toe to stand on in this argument for you are without experience in how God speaks to people and how He teaches them to speak His language of riddles, metaphors and symbols. But that's off this thread, so we must return to IHOP. [:)]

I'm not concerned with people taking me seriously, I'm only concerned with how Jesus thinks of me. And I know how He thinks of me as He tells me all the time. [:)]

P.S. sorry about thinking you were a he. Avitars are very difficult to figure out.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 2:47:23 AM)

Since I have obviously not been understood on my use of Bible, I will post an explanation... I will give answer to as much of the rest as I feel like later when I have more time (and more sleep). First off, this is not a defense of false prophets, but rather a defense that being a prophet does not save you from being in error. Now, on to the scriptures.

Habakkuk 2:1 "I will stand my watch
And set myself on the rampart,
And watch to see what He will say to me,
And what I will answer when I am corrected." This is the prophet referring to what he said to God in chapter 1. Note that he admits that he was wrong in what he said in Chapter 1. Prophet with bad theology... interesting...

1 Samuel 16:6 "So it was, when they came, that he looked at Eliab and said, “Surely the LORD’s anointed is before Him!” But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” Note, Samuel takes a look at Jesse's oldest son and says "Surely the Lord's anointed is before Him" and God corrects the prophet. A prophet making an error.... also interesting.

Jonah 4:8-11 "And it happened, when the sun arose, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat on Jonah’s head, so that he grew faint. Then he wished death for himself, and said, “It is better for me to die than to live.”
Then God said to Jonah, "Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?"
And he said, "It is right for me to be angry, even to death!"
But the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?” Once again, Prophet with error in doctrine...

Numbers 20 "7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.
10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.” " Once again, a prophet (Moses) is given a message and screws up... yet God still loved him, still called the man his friend, and didn't smite him for being "unbiblical" when he screwed up.

As for the rest, I will respond when I have more time. I don't know everything, and I don't have to... that's the beauty of me being me. I don't have to defend IHOP or Mike Bickle. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If the fact that there are 500 people in Kansas City, Missouri fasting and praying for 24 hours a day 7 days a week isn't fruit enough that there is something worth taking note of, then I don't know what will be. That is all for now.

Adam

PS, I may have to leave this argument be before my meekness gets destroyed, but God hasn't given me the red light yet.



stateofgrace -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 8:56:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

SD456:

quote:

So many of those websites are written by people who have axes to grind against movements and people that they are uncomfortable with. It is not ALL based on the truth. A small bit of truth gets mixed into and finally completely lost in a huge pile of lies. And with the internet, it grows and multiplies so much faster than ever before. And before you know it, the reputation of a dear brother is destroyed.


Which sites would those be? The only discernment sites I visit are the ones that post direct source material so I can look up the info for myself. They care deeply about God's word, spreading the truth, and publically warning others against the dangers out there.



Out of all the discernment sites I know of, I know of only one that I would characterize as being likely someone with an "axe to grind" - and on that particular site, the author has issue with almost every known leader in Christianity. The site author is also a KJV-only heavy Fundamentalist. It's pretty clear where he's coming form.

I know of one other site, that is sometimes linked to by users in the fourms here, where much of the documentation is heavily suspect, and lots of conclusions are made based on questionable documentation. I don't know enough about the site author to even speculate on whether this is because they have an "axe to grind" or that they simply are too prone to believe what they hear/read that gels with their opinion.

That's two sites out of likely two dozen. The other sites tend to be well-researched, not into gossip and inuendo and name-calling.

I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.



lw9 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 10:38:40 AM)

FurGodWurLivin:

quote:

First off, this is not a defense of false prophets, but rather a defense that being a prophet does not save you from being in error. Now, on to the scriptures.


That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I've already made it clear that while a prophet could and did make mistakes in life, if their WORDS were truly from God, then there was no error found in their prophecies. Big difference.

quote:

As for the rest, I will respond when I have more time. I don't know everything, and I don't have to... that's the beauty of me being me..


I'm not asking you to know everything, Adam, but when you yourself are defending a particular group along with their beliefs, rules, and definitions in a forum, then you should be ready to give a scriptural answer for it.

quote:

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If the fact that there are 500 people in Kansas City, Missouri fasting and praying for 24 hours a day 7 days a week isn't fruit enough that there is something worth taking note of, then I don't know what will be. That is all for now.


Question: If Muslims, Buddhists, and Hinduists fast and pray 24/7, does that prove them to be right with God?

Any group can set up prayer rooms, Adam. The proof is not in actions alone, but in what one confesses, teaches, and their adherance to scripture.

2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 3:45:53 PM)

quote:

I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.


Then I guess we shall have to be equally sad. For I see that anytime that something supernatural occurs which some do not understand because it is out of their "box" of experience, then they are very quick to call people heretics and false christians. Being careful to not spread gossip and not listening to those who actually do have axes to grind is not exactly the same thing as calling people anti-christs and heretics. I believe that you have leaped to an entirely different level.

Only God knows the hearts of men and we are commanded to not judge others - meaning we are not to pronounce judgement on them as judge and jury, condemning them as 'guilty', 'going to hell', as only Christ knows that.

And since you are not in authority over Mike bickle and cannot bring any discipline that God might want to ever bring into his life, then the only thing you can do is stir up fear, hate, and gossip against him. I do not believe that God has placed you, or those like you, in the position of prima Grand Inquisitor or that it is on your shoulders to point out all the tares to protect all of us 'poor, ignorant sheep'. But in the end, Jesus shall be the one to judge us all and He will use the exact same measuring rod that we have used on others. Grace or the law, which would you like to be judged by?

quote:



Any group can set up prayer rooms, Adam. The proof is not in actions alone, but in what one confesses, teaches, and their adherance to scripture.


So, I'm assuming that you've gotten on their website and have read their doctrinal statements of belief and you have found their doctrinal beliefs to be incorrect and their essential doctrines do not line up with the Christian world's essential doctrines? Because only IF their essential doctrine is incorrect - the trinity, the resurrection of Christ, the nature of God, etc etc, can they then be called heretics. Please tell me what essential doctrines on their website you have found yourself to be in disagreement with.

Otherwise what you are disagreeing with is simply their understanding of the practical application of prophecy, which, since the bible goes into little to no details on how prophetically gifted people hear from God, it is up to those who have the gift of prophecy to figure out what it all means. That is not a basis for heretical accusations. That is simply a basis for misunderstandings.



stephanos -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 4:09:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.


Then I guess we shall have to be equally sad. For I see that anytime that something supernatural occurs which some do not understand because it is out of their "box" of experience, then they are very quick to call people heretics and false christians. Being careful to not spread gossip and not listening to those who actually do have axes to grind is not exactly the same thing as calling people anti-christs and heretics. I believe that you have leaped to an entirely different level.

Only God knows the hearts of men and we are commanded to not judge others - meaning we are not to pronounce judgement on them as judge and jury, condemning them as 'guilty', 'going to hell', as only Christ knows that.

And since you are not in authority over Mike bickle and cannot bring any discipline that God might want to ever bring into his life, then the only thing you can do is stir up fear, hate, and gossip against him. I do not believe that God has placed you, or those like you, in the position of prima Grand Inquisitor or that it is on your shoulders to point out all the tares to protect all of us 'poor, ignorant sheep'. But in the end, Jesus shall be the one to judge us all and He will use the exact same measuring rod that we have used on others. Grace or the law, which would you like to be judged by?


Just because something is supernatural does NOT make it from God. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone has or has not had experience with being "out of the box" when they bring up concerns about these "supernatural" acts. The simple truth is that EVERYTHING that is done on earth HAS to be in line with scripture. And studying scripture and looking at what people do is far from gossip or "not listening". If people see or believe that another group is doing something wrong, then it is their duty as Christians to speak up. You are right that God is the ultimate judge. But if we DONT speak up against wrongs, especially if they are done in the name of God (but not of God), we are doing great harm to Christianity.

SD456 I have no doubt that you oppose Mormons, right? Would you not agree that they do not worship and teach the one TRUE Christ Jesus? If you are willing to say that, then why are you against people trying to point out other wrongs? Truly, if you really believe what you said in this last post, why are you attacking us who ask questions about IHOP and other groups like WOF and such, and not instead engaging us in rational debate and expressing your views with out malice. As it is YOU are guilty of exactly what you are saying others are doing. You lump every single person who disagrees with you in the "heresy hunters" group and condemn us all. I hope I for one am proof against that blanket judgment. But if you continue to look down on me for asking questions and having concerns, then again, are you not just as guilty as what you say I am doing. If all I want is to talk about what the bible says on these issues and listen to Adam and other IHOPers and see what they say, then pray and studie the bible to see if it all fits; if after doing that I still am in error in your eyes, then I say it does not have anything to do with discussion, or debate, or seeking the truth. Rather it has everything to do with your "If they dont agree they are wrong" mentality. If you find fault with how I am trying to seek the truth, then you dont care about showing evidence that you are right, you only care that I dont agree. If you can not see the difference then there is no hope for you. And as long as you continue to talk the way you have, like in this last post of yours, YOU are more evidence for me that your beliefs are not biblically sound. Truly YOU causing me to be pushed away from your beliefs, more so than any studies into issues that I could make. And it truly is sad, for as much as Adam is helping, you are hurting.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 5:21:59 PM)

quote:

SD456 I have no doubt that you oppose Mormons, right? Would you not agree that they do not worship and teach the one TRUE Christ Jesus? If you are willing to say that, then why are you against people trying to point out other wrongs? Truly, if you really believe what you said in this last post, why are you attacking us who ask questions about IHOP and other groups like WOF and such, and not instead engaging us in rational debate and expressing your views with out malice.


I hold no malice toward you whatsoever and I do not write in anger. It is in your imagination that you read such things. You are not my enemy. You are a brother in Christ who has wrongfully believed that God gives us the gift of "pointing out the tares" when, I believe, none of us has the wisdom to do so. Unless, of course, they are truly preaching a false Christ as Mormons and JWs. But even then, I do not make it my mission to run around telling people to stay away from them. Jesus is fully able to bring people who are truly hungry for Him into the truth.

I have been very rationally debating, but I fear I have been asking you questions that are frustrating to you. I apologize, but at the same time I cannot help you in your frustration. Can you show me from IHOP's doctrinal statement that they preach a false Christ? Please show me.

I appreciate what you are saying, Stephanos, and some of what I've written was not directed at you, but at lwr. If she so innocently and honestly wishes to know the truth about these people, as you claim she does, then she would contact IHOP themselves and talk to them. She would read Mike's books or would go to a conference and sit down with some folks there and air out her questions. That is honest searching for the truth.



sirwintery -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 5:34:14 PM)

Third Wave rule number one: Thou shalt not criticize.

Rule number two: There is something wrong with you that you want to criticize.

The brain stops here, but where does the buck stop? Why distance yourself from the "KC Prophets thing" if there's nothing wrong with it? Because it was no longer marketable?

Does anyone else find it vastly presumptous to create something called "God TV"?

I'm not sold on the "leave the humble 24/7 prayer people alone" argument. I've said before everything that could be covered with this thread has not been, and I see what I find when talking with Third Wave/Joyner/Bickle people in person, that the subject always changes to "what's wrong with you?" when questions are asked.

Is "non-traditional" similar to "aberrational"? There's still plenty of room for discussion.

later.
---------wintery.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 5:35:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

if after doing that I still am in error in your eyes, then I say it does not have anything to do with discussion, or debate, or seeking the truth. Rather it has everything to do with your "If they dont agree they are wrong" mentality.


And THERE is the difference between us, dear friend. If we still disagreed, you would call me a lover of heretics a defender of false teachers, a 'deceived one', etc., but I could never say that of you as I see that you truly profess Jesus as your savior and thus are my kinsman in spirit. Hopefully I shall always remember that we all know ONLY in part, and though some may have a different view of doctrine than I, that does not make them a false teacher or heretic. That simply means they have a different understanding of scripture and I would give you the liberty to believe differently in non-essentials.

That different understanding can be for different reasons, not all are because of deception. People who are more mature spiritually than I am will have a far better understanding of some scriptural truths than I. Some people have been given revelation that others have not yet been given, simply because their relationship with Jesus is an older one, a more mature one, or even a closer one. Jesus revealed more things to John than any of the others, and revealed more of himself to John, Peter and James than the others as they were closer to Him than all the other apostles. So Jesus does reveal different things to different people. I may not understand those things, but I will not call them heretics because of it.

As for the age old argument about prophecy, which you seem to base all your other arguments on, the practical application of prophecy is one better debated and discussed amongst those people that actually have the gift of prophecy and who have experienced it instead of those who believe that it is a gift that has ceased.



stephanos -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 6:06:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

if after doing that I still am in error in your eyes, then I say it does not have anything to do with discussion, or debate, or seeking the truth. Rather it has everything to do with your "If they dont agree they are wrong" mentality.


And THERE is the difference between us, dear friend. If we still disagreed, you would call me a lover of heretics a defender of false teachers, a 'deceived one', etc., but I could never say that of you as I see that you truly profess Jesus as your savior and thus are my kinsman in spirit. Hopefully I shall always remember that we all know ONLY in part, and though some may have a different view of doctrine than I, that does not make them a false teacher or heretic. That simply means they have a different understanding of scripture and I would give you the liberty to believe differently in non-essentials.

That different understanding can be for different reasons, not all are because of deception. People who are more mature spiritually than I am will have a far better understanding of some scriptural truths than I. Some people have been given revelation that others have not yet been given, simply because their relationship with Jesus is an older one, a more mature one, or even a closer one. Jesus revealed more things to John than any of the others, and revealed more of himself to John, Peter and James than the others as they were closer to Him than all the other apostles. So Jesus does reveal different things to different people. I may not understand those things, but I will not call them heretics because of it.

As for the age old argument about prophecy, which you seem to base all your other arguments on, the practical application of prophecy is one better debated and discussed amongst those people that actually have the gift of prophecy and who have experienced it instead of those who believe that it is a gift that has ceased.


Do you even read my posts? Or do you simply see that we disagree so you ASSUME you know what I am saying with out even looking to find out if your assumptions. Furthermore, your arrogant belief that only people who have the "gift" of prophecy has the right to talk about prophecy is flawed at best. If we were to take this logic to another topic, only people who agree that women can not be pastors, can talk about women not being pastors. But that is NOT the way it happens. That is not the way discussion works. And it is further proof you have no interest in debating topics, but rather believe that anyone who disagrees with you have no right to talk about the issues.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 6:39:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Do you even read my posts? Or do you simply see that we disagree so you ASSUME you know what I am saying with out even looking to find out if your assumptions. Furthermore, your arrogant belief that only people who have the "gift" of prophecy has the right to talk about prophecy is flawed at best. If we were to take this logic to another topic, only people who agree that women can not be pastors, can talk about women not being pastors. But that is NOT the way it happens. That is not the way discussion works. And it is further proof you have no interest in debating topics, but rather believe that anyone who disagrees with you have no right to talk about the issues.


Dear Stephanos,
I read your entire post twice before I commented. I'm profusely sorry that I have not communicated clearly and have caused you to misunderstand me. Please forgive me if I have frustrated you. Any have the right to discuss prophecy, but I believe that those who actually have the gift of prophecy will be better able to understand how God speaks to someone, what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, etc. I guess I also do not understand how some people (not necessarily you) who believe the gift has ceased could actually talk about its practical application in our lives since they would believe that it ALL is false.

It is not the discussing of issues that bothers me. It is the false conclusions that so many are quick to come to if someone believes in a doctrine different than themselves. You and I both have the liberty in Christ to wrestle things through and come to complete different conclusions when it comes to prophecy, the gifts, God TV, or any other non-essential item. Because we come to different conclusions does not mean you or I are lovers of false teachers, it means that we, both reasonable people, both bible studiers, both lovers of Jesus, must humbly agree to disagree and realize that we ALL see only in part and we ALL are doing the best we can to follow scriptures that are often not black & white at all.



stephanos -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 6:58:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

Dear Stephanos,
I read your entire post twice before I commented. I'm profusely sorry that I have not communicated clearly and have caused you to misunderstand me. Please forgive me if I have frustrated you. Any have the right to discuss prophecy, but I believe that those who actually have the gift of prophecy will be better able to understand how God speaks to someone, what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, etc. I guess I also do not understand how some people (not necessarily you) who believe the gift has ceased could actually talk about its practical application in our lives since they would believe that it ALL is false.

It is not the discussing of issues that bothers me. It is the false conclusions that so many are quick to come to if someone believes in a doctrine different than themselves. You and I both have the liberty in Christ to wrestle things through and come to complete different conclusions when it comes to prophecy, the gifts, God TV, or any other non-essential item. Because we come to different conclusions does not mean you or I are lovers of false teachers, it means that we, both reasonable people, both bible studiers, both lovers of Jesus, must humbly agree to disagree and realize that we ALL see only in part and we ALL are doing the best we can to follow scriptures that are often not black & white at all.



Well no you have not read my posts. If you look back the my post on the first page I said quite clearly that I DO believe that the GIFT of prophecy is still given by the Spirit. I have said that there is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the OFFICE of Prophet. How can you continue to speak about what you THINK i said if you dont even get things right.



lw9 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 7:26:00 PM)

SD456:

quote:

So, I'm assuming that you've gotten on their website and have read their doctrinal statements of belief and you have found their doctrinal beliefs to be incorrect and their essential doctrines do not line up with the Christian world's essential doctrines? Because only IF their essential doctrine is incorrect - the trinity, the resurrection of Christ, the nature of God, etc etc, can they then be called heretics.


Do you bother to read what anyone posts here? I never called them heretics. Ever. My concerns have already been stated and documented here, so go back and READ THEM because I'm not posting them again for you.

quote:

Otherwise what you are disagreeing with is simply their understanding of the practical application of prophecy, which, since the bible goes into little to no details on how prophetically gifted people hear from God, it is up to those who have the gift of prophecy to figure out what it all means. That is not a basis for heretical accusations. That is simply a basis for misunderstandings.


Giving false prophecies and teaching people to become false prophets/prophesiers isn't a simple little 'oops'. It goes against God, it goes against the Bible, and it leads people astray. You can gloss right over that if you want, but I won't.

quote:

I appreciate what you are saying, Stephanos, and some of what I've written was not directed at you, but at lwr. If she so innocently and honestly wishes to know the truth about these people, as you claim she does, then she would contact IHOP themselves and talk to them. She would read Mike's books or would go to a conference and sit down with some folks there and air out her questions. That is honest searching for the truth.


Why do I need to attend a conference when I'm reading the CONFERENCE NOTES AND OTHER MATERIAL directly from the IHOP website? Are you saying that IHOP is LYING ABOUT THEMSELVES ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE???

Can this get any more ridiculous?

Reading and posting IHOP's teachings directly from IHOP's own website isn't being 'dishonest', so you need to take that garbage somewhere else. Your false accusations and attitude against those who 'dare' to question and examine things on this site is utterly appalling.

If you have some sort of scriptural defense to make on IHOP's behalf, then make it. If you can answer the questions I asked of Adam in post #94, then answer them. Otherwise, all you're presenting here is personal opinion - and that counts for ZERO.



magdaleine -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 9:41:36 PM)

I have just finished reading this thread from beginning to end. I don't know all there is to know about IHOP and I know next to nothing about the other groups that have been disparraged here. However, I have gone to a "One Thing" conference by IHOP and I have read one of Mike Bickle's books. I also visited the prayer room for about an hour as I was passing through Kansas City this summer. I won't answer about their doctrine because I have not looked closely into it HOWEVER I can tell you that the HEARTS of these people are towards God. Whether or not they have everything right or not, I don't know. But I do know that they are passionate about Jesus Christ and want to know Him more and more intimately. Everything I have seen shows me that not only do they want this for themselves but for every other Christian as well. When a person is hungry for God, God will ensure that person is filled and if that person has false doctrine, God will correct him. Anyone who is passionate about Jesus and who makes Jesus Sovereign Lord of his life will not stay in error (if he is in error) for long. No one who asks for a fish will be given a snake. There is no question that IHOP and its leaders are passionate about God and want to serve Jesus in all parts of their lives. That's good enough for me.



sue244 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 9:57:55 PM)

You know I think its instersting that IHOP wants to teach people to be prophets and believe that the gift of prophecy is for today, yet it seems like there is this idea on the forum that the gift of discernment is no longer in use today. Anyone that tries to point out erros, is said to be a herresy hunter and told they don't have the wisdom to do that. Do we just forget about the gift of discernment when it comes to things like IHOP since it points out problem areas.
Now my opinion after having read the doctrine statement is that I don't agree with there views on escatology but thats not a big deal for me. But the idea that one can be taught to be a prophet is a problem. I think its instersting that their first doctrinal statement is that the cannon is closed at the 66 books and yet they go on and teach people how to be prophets and teach the idea that a prophet can be wrong. To me that is a contradiction and if they are willing to contridict there writen doctrine statement in their practice on revelation what else do they contradict on in practice. To me its a slippery slope, if you compromise here, then its easier to compromise there.



floydette -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 10:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sue244

You know I think its instersting that IHOP wants to teach people to be prophets and believe that the gift of prophecy is for today, yet it seems like there is this idea on the forum that the gift of discernment is no longer in use today. Anyone that tries to point out erros, is said to be a herresy hunter and told they don't have the wisdom to do that. Do we just forget about the gift of discernment when it comes to things like IHOP since it points out problem areas.
Now my opinion after having read the doctrine statement is that I don't agree with there views on escatology but thats not a big deal for me. But the idea that one can be taught to be a prophet is a problem. I think its instersting that their first doctrinal statement is that the cannon is closed at the 66 books and yet they go on and teach people how to be prophets and teach the idea that a prophet can be wrong. To me that is a contradiction and if they are willing to contridict there writen doctrine statement in their practice on revelation what else do they contradict on in practice. To me its a slippery slope, if you compromise here, then its easier to compromise there.

Sue, IHOP does not teach someone how to be a prophet. I do think that Adam mentioned that if I remember correctly. Just like any other gift one learns how to walk in and minister in that gift. It is a process of learning how to walk in your gifting. There is a difference between being a prophet and operating in the prophetic.

Secondly, many people can actually prophesy. Remember Paul "wished" that everyone would do so. It is listening to the Spirit of God and speaking what He asks us to speak. It is about as simple as that. The challenge lies in the fact that many people have not learned how to be still and listen to the Spirit of God. So part of the process is learning how to hear God for ones self.

This gift is different from the gift of discern. Apples and oranges, if you will. It is similiar to how there is a gift of discernment of spirits and then there is the discernment that we can all have because we have the Spirit of God living in us. One is a gift, one is something available to all believers. The prophetic is similiar in this way.



Kat_D -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 10:56:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

SD456:

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So many of those websites are written by people who have axes to grind against movements and people that they are uncomfortable with. It is not ALL based on the truth. A small bit of truth gets mixed into and finally completely lost in a huge pile of lies. And with the internet, it grows and multiplies so much faster than ever before. And before you know it, the reputation of a dear brother is destroyed.


Which sites would those be? The only discernment sites I visit are the ones that post direct source material so I can look up the info for myself. They care deeply about God's word, spreading the truth, and publically warning others against the dangers out there.



Out of all the discernment sites I know of, I know of only one that I would characterize as being likely someone with an "axe to grind" - and on that particular site, the author has issue with almost every known leader in Christianity. The site author is also a KJV-only heavy Fundamentalist. It's pretty clear where he's coming form.

I know of one other site, that is sometimes linked to by users in the fourms here, where much of the documentation is heavily suspect, and lots of conclusions are made based on questionable documentation. I don't know enough about the site author to even speculate on whether this is because they have an "axe to grind" or that they simply are too prone to believe what they hear/read that gels with their opinion.

That's two sites out of likely two dozen. The other sites tend to be well-researched, not into gossip and inuendo and name-calling.

I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.


Also interesting to note is that I can Google the church I go to (and am employed by) and/or my pastor, who is pretty well known, and who sticks strictly to exegetically teaching the Word of God, and nothing negative or controversial comes up. I can also Google a number of other churches/pastors (also well known) who teach in the same manner as mine and also nothing. Why can't we say the same about Bickle/IHop? Oh, I know, the numerous ministries that have exposed his false teaching are all just out to get him and his church. Sometimes where there is smoke there is definitely fire!



sue244 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 11:13:35 PM)

well maybe we need to define some terms. When you say prophet and being prophetic are you talking about forthtelling or fortelling? because if its the former then I think preaching would be a better word in this day and age, espcially with the conotation of prophet being one to predict the future, where as a preacher is one that teaches God's word.
Then there is the idea of learning your gift, I don't see that in the Bible. You have a gift, its not something that can be learned. You either speak in tounges or you don't you don't learn to speak in tounges for example.
My point about discernment is that it seems to be one that is forgotten in these circles. It has been said that people don't have the wisdom to judge, but the gift of discernment is being able to judge between truth and falsehood. So while defending one gift they are trying to do away with another gift.



lw9 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 11:36:32 PM)

IHOP Conference Notes: Prophetic Movement at the end of the age .

Article excerpt:

quote:

Simple Prophecy – speaking forth simple impressions which God brings to mind through words of knowledge (i.e. specific information regarding the physical/ spiritual/emotional status of someone). Occasionally, this includes receiving "visions" (mental pictures) or dreams.
He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (1 Cor. 14:3)


IHOP uses 1 Cor 14 to support their idea of prophecy, but then contradicts their own use of that scripture when they claim they may prophecy but are not necessarily prophets [see 'Women in the Prophetic Guidelines' article]. The very same 1 Cor 14 makes it clear that those who prophecy are indeed prophets, so no one is off the hook:

1 Cor 4:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

On a side note:

quote:

Some have experiences which indicate that they have been sovereignly chosen by God (miraculous birth, angelic visitation, etc). The stature necessary for the office of prophet includes gifts (accurate revelation); fruit or mature character and wisdom (understanding of God's corporate purpose and ways)


Errr... miraculous birth?!?



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 11:43:49 PM)

once again, quick response since I am at the airport about to get on a plane........
quote:

Also interesting to note is that I can Google the church I go to (and am employed by) and/or my pastor, who is pretty well known, and who sticks strictly to exegetically teaching the Word of God, and nothing negative or controversial comes up. I can also Google a number of other churches/pastors (also well known) who teach in the same manner as mine and also nothing. Why can't we say the same about Bickle/IHop? Oh, I know, the numerous ministries that have exposed his false teaching are all just out to get him and his church. Sometimes where there is smoke there is definitely fire!
If I remember correctly, there was this dude named Jesus who was quite a dicey character in his day... Something about that whole "turning over tables in the temple" thing. No, Mike is not on the same plane as Jesus, so don't even go there. What I'm saying is that every single thing that we do in the Western Church was considered heresy at one point or another, so controversy means diddly to the move of God.
quote:

Sue, IHOP does not teach someone how to be a prophet. I do think that Adam mentioned that if I remember correctly. Just like any other gift one learns how to walk in and minister in that gift. It is a process of learning how to walk in your gifting. There is a difference between being a prophet and operating in the prophetic.

Secondly, many people can actually prophesy. Remember Paul "wished" that everyone would do so. It is listening to the Spirit of God and speaking what He asks us to speak. It is about as simple as that. The challenge lies in the fact that many people have not learned how to be still and listen to the Spirit of God. So part of the process is learning how to hear God for ones self.

This gift is different from the gift of discern. Apples and oranges, if you will. It is similiar to how there is a gift of discernment of spirits and then there is the discernment that we can all have because we have the Spirit of God living in us. One is a gift, one is something available to all believers. The prophetic is similiar in this way.
Ditt-to-the-O....
quote:

I have just finished reading this thread from beginning to end. I don't know all there is to know about IHOP and I know next to nothing about the other groups that have been disparraged here. However, I have gone to a "One Thing" conference by IHOP and I have read one of Mike Bickle's books. I also visited the prayer room for about an hour as I was passing through Kansas City this summer. I won't answer about their doctrine because I have not looked closely into it HOWEVER I can tell you that the HEARTS of these people are towards God. Whether or not they have everything right or not, I don't know. But I do know that they are passionate about Jesus Christ and want to know Him more and more intimately. Everything I have seen shows me that not only do they want this for themselves but for every other Christian as well. When a person is hungry for God, God will ensure that person is filled and if that person has false doctrine, God will correct him. Anyone who is passionate about Jesus and who makes Jesus Sovereign Lord of his life will not stay in error (if he is in error) for long. No one who asks for a fish will be given a snake. There is no question that IHOP and its leaders are passionate about God and want to serve Jesus in all parts of their lives. That's good enough for me.
Same as above.
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Giving false prophecies and teaching people to become false prophets/prophesiers isn't a simple little 'oops'.
And we are not teaching people to be prophets.... rather, to prophesy...... big difference.
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Do you even read my posts? Or do you simply see that we disagree so you ASSUME you know what I am saying with out even looking to find out if your assumptions.
Welcome to my world....
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The brain stops here, but where does the buck stop? Why distance yourself from the "KC Prophets thing" if there's nothing wrong with it? Because it was no longer marketable?
No, but simply because you let the dead dog lay...... if it isn't an argument worth having, don't keep bringing it up.
quote:

Does anyone else find it vastly presumptous to create something called "God TV"?
About as presumptuous as saying that you are "fulfilling the great comission"....... or to call your network "American Broadcasting Company"....... Rory and Wendy are a different topic, God TV was not started by IHOP-KC, and God TV does not claim to have any kind of monopoly on God. That is also what we call a misnomer.
quote:

I'm not sold on the "leave the humble 24/7 prayer people alone" argument. I've said before everything that could be covered with this thread has not been, and I see what I find when talking with Third Wave/Joyner/Bickle people in person, that the subject always changes to "what's wrong with you?" when questions are asked.
Not always, but it sometimes does..... and that is a tragedy.
quote:

if their WORDS were truly from God, then there was no error found in their prophecies.
And on that note, I re-submit the prophet Samuel for your consideration... "Surely the Lord's anointed is before Him!" No he wasn't..... So Samuel... the guy who the Bible says God never let one of his words fall to the Ground.... he spoke presumptuously and made an error. Was he any less of a prophet or a judge? Not in the slightest. I will not argue that if someone is speaking the Word of the Lord, they are right. However, not always are they speaking the Word of the Lord... and that is my point. Sometimes people mistake their own imaginations for the Word of the Lord, and that is forgivable... unless they say that it is the Word of the Lord, in which case they become responsible for whatever they said. If you say "I feel like," then even if you are totally incorrect on you prophesying, you did tell the truth in that you did feel that way... unless you are just a lier.
quote:

Question: If Muslims, Buddhists, and Hinduists fast and pray 24/7, does that prove them to be right with God?
Better question: If Muslims, buddhists, and hinduists all jumped in the lake, would it cause a tsunami? You are really stretching to make a comparison because none of the above mentioned worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth...... and IHOP does. We are all struggling to live the Christian life the best way we know how, and that is the crux of IHOP. Disagree if you like, but the fruit far outweighs the controversey. For example, the NightWatch is focused on praying for the ending of abortion and the ending of human trafficking. In the following six months after we began that focus, there were four major human trafficking busts (that I can remember right now) in various places in the earth. Oh yeah, and the partial birth aborion ban was held up by the Supreme Court..... Oh yeah, and Mike Huckabee(staunchly pro-life) is rapidly surging to the lead of the Republican polls in Iowa... The prayers of the righteous avails much, apparently.....

gotta run now...

Adam



sue244 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/3/2007 11:51:44 PM)

quote:

F. Another thing to avoid is predicting specific detailed information or giving specific direction (dates, time frames, marriages, children, death, life, moving, jobs, etc., or basically, telling people what to do.) The reason why, as we said before, is because of the mixture of accuracy in our prophetic words. You should never act on a prophetic word; a word should only confirm what the Lord has already spoken to your own heart.
http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000006106
the note on women in the prophectic guidelines

Why do I have the feeling that you could find this same sort of direction for a psycic hotline. Avoid specific details?!?!? Please that is what makes the prophecy of the Bible so unique is that its specific, very specific and does give, names, dates, very clear perdictions as opposed to vegue statements that could be interpreted any way. For goodness sake I could say there is going to be an earthquake in California by this direction and be prophecying since chances are someday there sill be an earthquake in California.

Edit to add
quote:

E. We also have guidelines concerning things to avoid while doing prophetic ministry. This includes prophesying about negative things (sin, the past, correcting, rebuking). Again, the prophetic is for “strengthening, encouragement, and comfort”. This the measuring line for how to share prophetic words.
same place as previous quote

Well I guess acording to IHOP Paul was a bad prophet since he did a lot of rebuking in his epistles to the church. And we probably shouldn't quote the Bible to much since it is useful for teaching, reproof and correction acording to 2 Tim 3L16.



lw9 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/4/2007 12:01:32 AM)

FurGodWurLivin:

quote:

And on that note, I re-submit the prophet Samuel for your consideration... "Surely the Lord's anointed is before Him!" No he wasn't..... So Samuel... the guy who the Bible says God never let one of his words fall to the Ground.... he spoke presumptuously and made an error.


You might want to try posting the entire verse:

1 Sam 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliah and THOUGHT, "Surely the Lord's anointed stands here before the Lord"

Now, I know you know better than this. In that verse, Samuel did not say: 'The Lord God has said...". Samuel did not give any prophecy to anyone. In fact, Samuel did not even speak. He had a THOUGHT TO HIMSELF. Do you understand that you are adding to scripture to uphold your views?

quote:

And we are not teaching people to be prophets.... rather, to prophesy...... big difference.


Yes, you are teaching people to become prophets... false prophets. IHOP has created rules and guidelines for 'growing' prophets. In those guidelines, budding prophets are told that mistakes and errors are okay, and that they should withhold any negative information and details they might hear. That IS teaching people to literally become false prophets. In doing this, they fulfill 3 qualifications for a false prophet:

1. Their words do not come to pass. [Deut 18:20-21, Jer 23:22]
2. They do not bring God's word in full. [Jer 23:21, Jer 23:26]
3. They brings only lies of good news. [Isa 30:9-10, Jer 23:16-17]

I understand you're busy, but there are many questions that still await a Biblical explanation.



sue244 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/4/2007 12:21:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

FurGodWurLivin:

quote:

And on that note, I re-submit the prophet Samuel for your consideration... "Surely the Lord's anointed is before Him!" No he wasn't..... So Samuel... the guy who the Bible says God never let one of his words fall to the Ground.... he spoke presumptuously and made an error.


You might want to try posting the entire verse:

1 Sam 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliah and THOUGHT, "Surely the Lord's anointed stands here before the Lord"

Now, I know you know better than this. In that verse, Samuel did not say: 'The Lord God has said...". Samuel did not give any prophecy to anyone. In fact, Samuel did not even speak. He had a THOUGHT TO HIMSELF. Do you understand that you are adding to scripture to uphold your views?

I understand you're busy, but there are questions that still await a Biblical explanation.

That was my thought to LW9. I find it instersting that furGodWurLivin is trying to prove that a prophet can be wrong, when IHOP's own litature says that in the OT a prophet had to be 100% or be stoned to death. I must have missed where that changed in the NT.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/4/2007 1:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Well no you have not read my posts. If you look back the my post on the first page I said quite clearly that I DO believe that the GIFT of prophecy is still given by the Spirit. I have said that there is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the OFFICE of Prophet. How can you continue to speak about what you THINK i said if you dont even get things right.


Oh dear, I can't remember what everyone's comments exactly are from the beginning of this thread, and as I said, some of my comments were not directed at you but were directed at those on this thread who think of prophecy in a certain way. I'm sorry if I didn't clearly remember who said what when, but ALL of my comments were not about you...[:(] And I, too, believe there is something different between the office of prophet and the gift of prophecy.



SD456 -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (12/4/2007 1:13:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magdaleine

I have just finished reading this thread from beginning to end. I don't know all there is to know about IHOP and I know next to nothing about the other groups that have been disparraged here. However, I have gone to a "One Thing" conference by IHOP and I have read one of Mike Bickle's books. I also visited the prayer room for about an hour as I was passing through Kansas City this summer. I won't answer about their doctrine because I have not looked closely into it HOWEVER I can tell you that the HEARTS of these people are towards God. Whether or not they have everything right or not, I don't know. But I do know that they are passionate about Jesus Christ and want to know Him more and more intimately. Everything I have seen shows me that not only do they want this for themselves but for every other Christian as well. When a person is hungry for God, God will ensure that person is filled and if that person has false doctrine, God will correct him. Anyone who is passionate about Jesus and who makes Jesus Sovereign Lord of his life will not stay in error (if he is in error) for long. No one who asks for a fish will be given a snake. There is no question that IHOP and its leaders are passionate about God and want to serve Jesus in all parts of their lives. That's good enough for me.


I truly appreciate your comment, magdaleine. Especially when you are someone who actually went there and saw and heard them first hand for yourself. When you look someone in the eye who loves Jesus so much, like Mike bickle, you can clearly see that here is one person who really wants to please God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sue
I think its instersting that their first doctrinal statement is that the cannon is closed at the 66 books and yet they go on and teach people how to be prophets and teach the idea that a prophet can be wrong. To me that is a contradiction and if they are willing to contridict there writen doctrine statement in their practice on revelation what else do they contradict on in practice. To me its a slippery slope, if you compromise here, then its easier to compromise there.


I appreciate your comment Sue, and also appreciate that you read their doctrinal statement. Perhaps it is in what we think we are understanding about a group that is sometimes the problem, not in what that group is doing. If they say they believe that the canon is closed at 66 books, which means no new revelations that contradict scripture or adds to it, then I believe they mean that. Perhaps your understanding of the application of prophecy is the problem, not IHOP. Because that seems to be the one thing that makes you want to believe that they must be scary guys to stay away from.



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