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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/5/2007 9:56:31 AM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
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FurGodWurLivin:
You haven't answered the questions I posted several pages ago. I will post them again for you and try to consolidate and clarify them as best I can.
Question 1: Where can I find the following concept from IHOP in the Bible?
"Most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God’s words. The revelation that God gives us is always 100% true, however, it is filtered through human communication and perspective; so that by the time it is given through us it contains a percentage of our words as well as God’s. We can learn how to share prophetic words more clearly as we mature in our gifting. A mature word will have a higher percentage of God’s words; a weak word will have a higher percentage of our words."
Please provide those scriptures.
Question 2: Where does the Bible support IHOP's guidelines for prophecy, whereby a 'message from God' must be edited and altered to contain only positive information and no details?
E. We also have guidelines concerning things to avoid while doing prophetic ministry. This includes prophesying about negative things (sin, the past, correcting, rebuking). Again, the prophetic is for “strengthening, encouragement, and comfort”. This the measuring line for how to share prophetic words.
F. Another thing to avoid is predicting specific detailed information or giving specific direction (dates, time frames, marriages, children, death, life, moving, jobs, etc., or basically, telling people what to do.) The reason why, as we said before, is because of the mixture of accuracy in our prophetic words. You should never act on a prophetic word; a word should only confirm what the Lord has already spoken to your own heart.
Please provide those scriptures.
Question 3: Where can I find the three eschelons of prophecy in the Bible that are defined by IHOP as the following:
1. Simple Prophecy – speaking forth simple impressions which God brings to mind through words of knowledge (i.e. specific information regarding the physical/ spiritual/emotional status of someone). Occasionally, this includes receiving "visions" (mental pictures) or dreams.
He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (1 Cor. 14:3)
2. Prophetic Gift or Ministry: believers who are “gifted” in receiving an unusual amount of revelation and are recognized for regular ministry in the local church. They receive words and dreams on a regular basis and have "open visions" on occasion (i.e., angelic visitations, audible voice). They sometimes receive detailed information such as names, faces, dates, and future events and occasionally operate in other sign gifts (healing, miracles, deliverance). They may in private expose unconfessed sin (2 Sam. 12:1-7). They give simple prophecies yet also give direction and correction, submitting the latter two to leadership.
3. Office of a Prophet: believers whose ministry is similar to the prophets of the Old Testament. They give correction and direction and bring new emphases in the Church body. They minister in signs and wonders and regularly prophesy with great accuracy (Samuel, Elijah, etc.). They provide direction and correction to those in government in the church, marketplace or political arenas.
Please provide those scriptures.
Question 4: Where does the Bible state that ALL believers will prophesy? Please provide those scriptures.
Still waiting.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/5/2007 10:05:26 AM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/5/2007 10:13:45 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
Jimbo, let me clarify what I was saying. Being a Pharisee, a teacher of the law (and Paul), the leading authority in the Sanhedrin, etc. it is a good guess that Gamaliel understood the ways of God. He probably had a good understanding (although at the point of Acts 5, it could have been a pre-Christian understanding) how God worked. I did not talk about the doctrines of Gamaliel. Only the probably understanding of how God worked.
The verse that wintery quoted made it sound (to me at least) as if Gama was the one who said they should beat the apostles. If you look at vs 33, the Sanhedrin wanted to KILL the apostles - and Gama spoke, and "his speech persuaded them" so they did NOT kill them, but only beat them. Gotta read the entire passage. He was FOR the apostles, not against them.
This is relevant for response because it is a defense I've heard before of the "don't judge" teaching. Gamaliel was not giving a Scripture to become a part of Christian doctrine. If he were "for" the apostles, he would have been forced to join them for the flogging. Gama said certain movements came to nothing so leave them alone and watch them fizzle out. That has nothing to do with Christian discernment. I'm sure good Christians participate with IHOP, but are they being taught correctly? This is my concern for myself and others at whatever church I am in at a given time, so it's not slander, not being a hater, not throwing stones, it's a part of what we should certainly do, especially when I'm not a message board character, but have real life conversations with people about these things.
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
Check out 1 Chron 5 and 7 and you will see that when the glory of God came down those in the temple (priests - like us today - priesthood of all believers) fell down (after dancing and singing and praying) because the presence of the Lord was so powerful.
In those two chapters I see war with the Hagarites, cattle, camels, genealogies, but no temple.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/5/2007 10:59:35 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
If we take your understanding of Matthew 6, we couldn't even pray IN CHURCH because we are in public and people might see us. Matthew 6 is not an encouragement to become recluses (that's what the Branch Davidians and Jonestown crew got off into), it rather is an encouragement to not be living the Christian life specifically to be seen and adored by men.
It's a deflection of the point to argue against recluses. Claiming to be established by "prophecies", to be a prophesied place is claiming an endorsement from God. Claiming to be a place of prayer, praying for large-sounding matters such as the politics you mentioned in another place may sound impressive to some because of the presumption that God is endorsing it. This presumptuous attitude that goes beyond KC and extends to the imitator churches, such as the one I formerly attended, I think detracts from the real intimate relationship of prayer and goes toward "model" praying as an activity which is empty of life.
IHOP defenders have used "prophecies" to "prove" that God wanted such a thing and then when the prophets are discredited we hear about "distancing" and those like Bob Jones whom you say in no longer a welcome person at IHOP. When does it become wrong to listen to an unwelcome "prophet" who apparently claims he's been to the moon and on earth has been visited by angels?
People claiming visits by angels are claiming the personal endorsement of God.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
These guys don't have detractors because they're the "real" move of God. It's because there are faults with the things they say. The verse above puts the responsibility on _us_ for what we do with our Christian lives. It may be sad when people are led off-track, and the "masters" will receive the greater condemnation (James 3:1), but we must be responsible and Biblical if we expect to please God.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/5/2007 2:26:39 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
wintery: IHOP defenders have used "prophecies" to "prove" that God wanted such a thing and then when the prophets are discredited we hear about "distancing" and those like Bob Jones whom you say in no longer a welcome person at IHOP.
Well, exactly. Considering that Mike Bickle still gives Bob Jones credit for prophecying IHOP [as of January 2007], I wouldn't call that 'distancing'.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/82269.aspx
So, which is it... is Bob Jones in, is he out, or is he just being sent to a corner for awhile? And does Jones' flattering prophecy that Bickle "will be to Israel spiritually what Harry Truman was to Israel politically" still count?
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/5/2007 7:02:59 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1398
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
quote:
Here is an interesting first-hand account from an ex-IHOP member which confirms much of what has been said in opposition to Bickle/IHOP in this thread and more
quote:
And I am what.............. a lier? A shady, despicable character misrepresenting the truth? How many people have left the church saying it was a lie? Do you believe all of those people? You are into first hand accounts.... great! I am a first hand account as a current staff member. You are so quick to believe anybody who confirms what you think, it is disheartening. Remember the whole "running to other doctrines" and "having tingling ears" thing? I can produce ten links of people who love IHOP just as quickly as you can put up links of people who don't. So it really doesn't matter to me.
No, Adam, I don't think you are a liar or a shady despicable character misrepresenting the truth, I think you are a young man who loves Jesus Christ and has his heart set on serving Him and His people. I also think that you have been deceived by your present church and pastor.
I came back to the thread because the more I delve into the teachings and practices of Bickle/IHop, the more I am convinced that beyond his false teaching, his church has several characteristics of a cult. The reason I posted that young man's personal account of his experience with IHop/Forerunner SOM was because I was hoping it might open your eyes.
Contrary to what you and others believe, we, who are trying to warn you, are here because we care about you. There are huge red flags with Bickle/IHop and we don't want you to get hurt or have your relationship with the Lord negatively impacted by your church. Many have gone before you, who, after discovering that the church and leader they so believed in was false, have lost their faith entirely. We just don't want that to happen to you...and warning you is the greatest expression of love we can show you.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/6/2007 6:31:10 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Here is an interesting first-hand account from an ex-IHOP member which confirms much of what has been said in opposition to Bickle/IHOP in this thread and more
And I am what.............. a liar? A shady, despicable character misrepresenting the truth? How many people have left the church saying it was a lie? Do you believe all of those people? You are into first hand accounts.... great! I am a first hand account as a current staff member. You are so quick to believe anybody who confirms what you think, it is disheartening. Remember the whole "running to other doctrines" and "having tingling ears" thing? I can produce ten links of people who love IHOP just as quickly as you can put up links of people who don't. So it really doesn't matter to me.
Adam
LOL...  Doesn't make any sense. You'll listen to someone's "first-hand" account who obviously is bitter and needs a season of cooling off to think straight - kind of like parents needing to send a kid to his bedroom who's in a rage and thinks everyone in the world is out to get him, kind of thing - JUST because he agrees with your viewpoint. Doesn't matter who he is, doesn't matter his maturity level or spiritual discernment, it's just an angry voice shouting out there somewhere. BUT you won't listen to the first-hand account of someone else who is there, on staff, and who speaks with biblical understanding.
Life just sometimes makes no sense - especially church life. Bad news, like in the media, is what sells the papers!
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/6/2007 6:46:04 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
quote:
quote:
Here is an interesting first-hand account from an ex-IHOP member which confirms much of what has been said in opposition to Bickle/IHOP in this thread and more
And I am what.............. a liar? A shady, despicable character misrepresenting the truth? How many people have left the church saying it was a lie? Do you believe all of those people? You are into first hand accounts.... great! I am a first hand account as a current staff member. You are so quick to believe anybody who confirms what you think, it is disheartening. Remember the whole "running to other doctrines" and "having tingling ears" thing? I can produce ten links of people who love IHOP just as quickly as you can put up links of people who don't. So it really doesn't matter to me.
Adam
LOL... Doesn't make any sense. You'll listen to someone's "first-hand" account who obviously is bitter and needs a season of cooling off to think straight - kind of like parents needing to send a kid to his bedroom who's in a rage and thinks everyone in the world is out to get him, kind of thing - JUST because he agrees with your viewpoint. Doesn't matter who he is, doesn't matter his maturity level or spiritual discernment, it's just an angry voice shouting out there somewhere. BUT you won't listen to the first-hand account of someone else who is there, on staff, and who speaks with biblical understanding.
Life just sometimes makes no sense - especially church life. Bad news, like in the media, is what sells the papers!
And could it not be said likewise, that it is just as wrong to only listen to people who are members, do work with and on the church staff and know the inner-workings of a ministry? Do you go out and look for opposing view points? Or do you listen to only people who agree with your view? You continue to have a double standard when saying the side who have serious questions about IHOP are dead wrong because we only listen to one side, yet do YOU listen to any other side other than the one you support? I fully agree that one MUST listen to BOTH sides in a discussion to get the full view. The question is do you practice what you preach?
Furthermore, I need to CONTINUE to ask you to recognize this fact. Just because someone disagrees with you, does NOT mean that they dont know what they are talking about. Could it be so? Yes. But as a rule, it is not always the case.
I recognize that you may not intend to come off sounding like you are. But I must warn you that you DO sound like you are automatically condemning anyone who disagrees with you with out even considering that they may know what they are talking about. It sounds like you are saying that anyone who disagrees with your POV must not know what they are talking about. Afterall if they did know what they were talking about, they would agree with you right? Unfortunately that is not the way it works.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/6/2007 6:47:50 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mabel
Wow. Just had to respond here. I have been following this thread and I really wish I had more time to participate.
Adam....I appreciate your posts and you tenacity  . I also see a young man in love with Jesus......... And I see an amazing heart. Sorry, though. I can't agree about the deception part . I've heard Mike Bickle speak, I've read his books. I've been involved in ministries that are connected to IHOP. It has ministered to me and many others greatly.
Something I've learned in my walk, and seeking the Lord, is that God desires us to be made into the image of Christ, not the preferences of men. Adam, for sure Jesus was a radical man! And he made lots of people uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that they brought him to death. Ah...but that was God's plan from the beginning! He is not surprized.
Something I've pondered for some time now as I've been reading this thread and others like it. I've seen so much focus on trying to prove who God isn't........wondering then, how much about who He IS gets missed.
Can't agree with you more, Mabel. God is huge and will do whatever He wants, even if it looks ridiculous to the world and is uncomfortable for believers. God WILL have a people who walk in the supernatural like Jesus and they will 'look' like Jesus - and both the world and the religious spirit that is in the world will dislike them because of it.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/6/2007 6:58:44 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
And could it not be said likewise, that it is just as wrong to only listen to people who are members, do work with and on the church staff and know the inner-workings of a ministry? Do you go out and look for opposing view points? Or do you listen to only people who agree with your view? You continue to have a double standard when saying the side who have serious questions about IHOP are dead wrong because we only listen to one side, yet do YOU listen to any other side other than the one you support? I fully agree that one MUST listen to BOTH sides in a discussion to get the full view. The question is do you practice what you preach?
Furthermore, I need to CONTINUE to ask you to recognize this fact. Just because someone disagrees with you, does NOT mean that they dont know what they are talking about. Could it be so? Yes. But as a rule, it is not always the case.
I recognize that you may not intend to come off sounding like you are. But I must warn you that you DO sound like you are automatically condemning anyone who disagrees with you with out even considering that they may know what they are talking about. It sounds like you are saying that anyone who disagrees with your POV must not know what they are talking about. Afterall if they did know what they were talking about, they would agree with you right? Unfortunately that is not the way it works.
Because I disagree with you does not necessitate condemnation, Stephanos. You must get over that idea. I simply disagree with your viewpoint. Sorry Stephanos, we'll just have to keep cordially agreeing to disagree. 
I don't find it helpful to listen to those who are in bitterness. I understand that a person can be hurt, legitimately so, but we must be careful when listening to that person's opinions when it is about the 'person' that hurt them. There are always 2 sides to a story. I will definately listen to a calm, rational person, after they've worked through all their hurt and bitterness and gotten to the other side of it all. Because I know that then they will have a clearer picture of what happened and what THEIR part in the fall-out was. I've learned from experience that when I get bent out of groove by someone or by a church that I usually had a part in it and didn't do everything right myself. It takes time for God to get one to the other side of the hurt to see things rightly. So posting a young man's hurt and bitterness over things that happened to him at a church, isn't real helpful to a conversation as it's obvious God needs to walk him through some needed stuff first.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/6/2007 7:30:21 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Question 1: Where can I find the following concept from IHOP in the Bible?
"Most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God’s words. The revelation that God gives us is always 100% true, however, it is filtered through human communication and perspective; so that by the time it is given through us it contains a percentage of our words as well as God’s. We can learn how to share prophetic words more clearly as we mature in our gifting. A mature word will have a higher percentage of God’s words; a weak word will have a higher percentage of our words."
Please provide those scriptures. Okay, this is not a biblical matter. IHOP says that the revelation that we get FROM GOD is correct... however, the words out of OUR mouths are generally not. You want me to superflously prove something from scripture that I have already demonstrated in reality (remember the "telephone" analogy?). When we talk about mature words, we are really talking about someone who has learned to seperate their feelings, impressions, and emotions from those of God. This is not a biblical conflict, unless you are only willing to say that a Prophet can prophesy (which is not true... remember King Saul and his troops?).quote:
Question 2: Where does the Bible support IHOP's guidelines for prophecy, whereby a 'message from God' must be edited and altered to contain only positive information and no details?
E. We also have guidelines concerning things to avoid while doing prophetic ministry. This includes prophesying about negative things (sin, the past, correcting, rebuking). Again, the prophetic is for “strengthening, encouragement, and comfort”. This the measuring line for how to share prophetic words.
F. Another thing to avoid is predicting specific detailed information or giving specific direction (dates, time frames, marriages, children, death, life, moving, jobs, etc., or basically, telling people what to do.) The reason why, as we said before, is because of the mixture of accuracy in our prophetic words. You should never act on a prophetic word; a word should only confirm what the Lord has already spoken to your own heart.
Please provide those scriptures. Already have...... 1st Corinthians 14. Edifcation, Exhoration, and Comfort. As someone who is trying to disprove that the prophetic even exists anymore, it should be a blessing to you to hear IHOP saying that you should never act on a prophetic word, but should only confirm what God has already told you. This is the fun bit about Bob Jones prophesying IHOP would come....... Mike had already had a burden from God to start a house of prayer, so the prophesy was mere confirmation of what Mike had already been told. Various things like the blueprint prophecy were confirmation and exegesis of the vision that had already been put in the heart of the leader.quote:
Question 3: Where can I find the three eschelons of prophecy in the Bible that are defined by IHOP as the following:
1. Simple Prophecy – speaking forth simple impressions which God brings to mind through words of knowledge (i.e. specific information regarding the physical/ spiritual/emotional status of someone). Occasionally, this includes receiving "visions" (mental pictures) or dreams.
He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (1 Cor. 14:3)
2. Prophetic Gift or Ministry: believers who are “gifted” in receiving an unusual amount of revelation and are recognized for regular ministry in the local church. They receive words and dreams on a regular basis and have "open visions" on occasion (i.e., angelic visitations, audible voice). They sometimes receive detailed information such as names, faces, dates, and future events and occasionally operate in other sign gifts (healing, miracles, deliverance). They may in private expose unconfessed sin (2 Sam. 12:1-7). They give simple prophecies yet also give direction and correction, submitting the latter two to leadership.
3. Office of a Prophet: believers whose ministry is similar to the prophets of the Old Testament. They give correction and direction and bring new emphases in the Church body. They minister in signs and wonders and regularly prophesy with great accuracy (Samuel, Elijah, etc.). They provide direction and correction to those in government in the church, marketplace or political arenas.
Please provide those scriptures. Looks like Charra Boasso already did... 1 Corinthians 14:3... edification, exhoration, and comfort to men. 2 Samuel 12:1-7 is Nathan exposing to King David the depths of his own sin..... The Office of a prophet is quite easy to find...... it's about half of the Old Testament... Elijah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah............ make sense now? I am not trying to tell you that IHOP is 100% correct in it's theology, because none of us are. However, I am trying to tell you that IHOP's theological errors, whichever ones are actually error, are no greater than any other error to be found in "acceptable" churches. If you problem is Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, John Paul Jackson or any other person you associate with the KCP, have a problem with those guys...... but not IHOP. IHOP is merely one cog in a rather large wheel... and not the wheel itself.quote:
Question 4: Where does the Bible state that ALL believers will prophesy? Please provide those scriptures. Onc again, 1st Corinthians 14 is the most pressing.... "earnestly desire spiritual gifts, bretheren, but especially that you may prophesy." Was Paul speaking ONLY to the Corinthian church, or was this a principle for all of the churches? Since it shows up in the "approved" canon, we must think that it is a principle for the church. IHOP leaders would tell you that all "can" not that all "will". Also of note is Moses... "I wish that all of God's people were prophets..." Prophesy, and spiritual gifts in general, are something that we are to desire according to Paul....... so why is it that the idea of creating a safe context to practice prophesy in is so looked down on?quote:
It's a deflection of the point to argue against recluses. Not so much......... you were having a problem with IHOP's being on GodTV and quoted a verse that didn't really support your argument. I pointed out what the verse is actually talking about..... if that is wrong, then I do apologize.... However, that was your error and not mine.quote:
People claiming visits by angels are claiming the personal endorsement of God.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
These guys don't have detractors because they're the "real" move of God. It's because there are faults with the things they say. The verse above puts the responsibility on _us_ for what we do with our Christian lives. It may be sad when people are led off-track, and the "masters" will receive the greater condemnation (James 3:1), but we must be responsible and Biblical if we expect to please God. Well.... first... you are substituting "responsible and Biblical" for "faith"......... Secondly, I am not arguing with the current assesment of Paul Cain or Bob Jones. I AM, however, arguing that just because they have been "discredited" (proven as being human), doesn't mean that they were necessarily wrong about everything they said. There is this idea that someone who is a Prophet does not make an error in their ministerial life... as I pointed out earlier, that isn't true. I think that Jones and Cain are both off the road, but that doesn't negate everything they said and did either. As for the personal endorsement.... only to a point. The leaders of the internship programs have both said that the Gift of God is actually a gift to the Church and NOT a rubber stamp of approval on someone's life and doctrine... How else would a William Branham or John G Lake be able to have such an amazing healing gift?quote:
The verse above puts the responsibility on _us_ for what we do with our Christian lives. which I have never argued with. My life is on my own head. If you really think IHOP is a cult, the best thing you can do is pray for the staff members to recieve "wisdom and revelation" (per Ephesians 1:17-19).quote:
Considering that Mike Bickle still gives Bob Jones credit for prophecying IHOP [as of January 2007], I wouldn't call that 'distancing'.
There is a major difference between stating history and endorsing someone's life and ministry. The fact of histoy is that Bob Jones did prophecy (1988) that IHOP would come to be. The fact of now is that Bob Jones is not associated with IHOP-KC. Those are the facts... anything other than that is supposition.quote:
So, which is it... is Bob Jones in, is he out, or is he just being sent to a corner for awhile? And does Jones' flattering prophecy that Bickle "will be to Israel spiritually what Harry Truman was to Israel politically" still count? As I said.... fact of history, of fact of now?quote:
No, Adam, I don't think you are a liar or a shady despicable character misrepresenting the truth, I think you are a young man who loves Jesus Christ and has his heart set on serving Him and His people. First time I've heard that in this discussion.........quote:
I also think that you have been deceived by your present church and pastor. Already heard that...... and I keep telling you that IHOP-KC is not a church. Mike is a smart guy, a studier of the Bible, and a prayer warrior like I haven't seen elsewhere. He is director of the IHOP-KC mission base, but he doesn't pastor a church. IHOP-KC operates a church as a part of it's outreaches (Forerunner Christian Fellowship), but that is all. Okay, that was playing semantics, but w/e.quote:
I came back to the thread because the more I delve into the teachings and practices of Bickle/IHop, the more I am convinced that beyond his false teaching, his church has several characteristics of a cult. Characteristics of a cult.... such as? IHOP-KC is a modern monastery... not a cult. We don't doubt the salvation of "non-intercessory missionaries", we aren't just bunking down to hold out until Jesus comes back, we don't worship our "leader" (Mike Bickle), we don't follow our teachers unquestioningly, and many of IHOP's Staff Members are at the House of Prayer until they feel God is calling them out to go be missionaries to te world. Since IHOP-KC has a mostly extrovertive focus to their introvertive ministry, are we a cult? Cults are purely introvertive in an "us vs. them" mentality, which IHOP-KC is catagorically not. I'm amazed that a group of people persuing lives of prayer to God and fasting rank with cults in your mind. Since when is pursuing God with excellence of discipline frowned upon?quote:
Contrary to what you and others believe, we, who are trying to warn you, are here because we care about you. I appreciate your concern.... I really do....... however, I'm not a mindless sheep in need of ANOTHER shephard. That is God's job. In fact, before continuing to "warn" me about a speck of sawdust, start looking for logs in your own eyes first. I still have yet to see anyone prove how praying and fasting is less than biblical. Since prayer and fasting is what takes up 90% of what happens at IHOP, that means that IHOP is at least 90% biblical.quote:
There are huge red flags with Bickle/IHop and we don't want you to get hurt or have your relationship with the Lord negatively impacted by your church. Same as above, how could intense prayer and fasting POSSIBLY injur my relationship with God? In fact, I will tell you right now, I am 100% convinced, no proof necessary, that Mike Bickle is wrong in his doctrine somewhere... The fun bit, so is everyone else who lives on this planet and considers themselves a Christian.quote:
We just don't want that to happen to you...and warning you is the greatest expression of love we can show you. Strange how this argument doesn't fly in pre-trib/post-trib debates.......... but in a doctrine debate, it flies just fine. Just claim you love the people and then all of your words are perfectly okay.... It doesn't matter what claims, accusations, or other charges you make, as long as you claim it's love, it allllllll gooooood. Come on..... That carries about as much weight as claiming that a highly offensive racial joke was just sarcasm.... Ask Don Imus about the success of that one.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/7/2007 12:58:24 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
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FurGodWurLivin:
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I know how much time replying can take since I've spent many hours now myself on this stuff.
quote:
Question 1: Where can I find the following concept from IHOP in the Bible [that most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God's words, and therefore errors.]?
quote:
Okay, this is not a biblical matter. IHOP says that the revelation that we get FROM GOD is correct... however, the words out of OUR mouths are generally not...
With answers like that, though, can you blame people for questioning IHOP's Biblical validity? How is accuracy in prophecy NOT a Biblical matter when God Himself has made it a Biblical matter?
Fact: The Bible has set very strict standards for prophecy and for prophets, which has already been presented several times.
Fact: IHOP has taken it upon itself to rewrite those standards according to how it suits their needs. IHOP is in complete contradiction with God on this matter. If IHOP's 'mixture' can't be supported Biblically, then this is a man-inspired, man-created new 'rule' that should be rejected rather than defended.
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Question 2: Where does the Bible support IHOP's guidelines for prophecy, whereby a 'message from God' must be edited and altered to contain only positive information, no details, no pointing out of sin?
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Already have...... 1st Corinthians 14. Edifcation, Exhoration, and Comfort. As someone who is trying to disprove that the prophetic even exists anymore, it should be a blessing to you to hear IHOP saying that you should never act on a prophetic word, but should only confirm what God has already told you...
1 Cor 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
Hearing the truth - whether good news or bad - IS edifying. We are to be instructed, rebuked, and corrected when we're in the wrong. That is what strengthens us and edifies us, yet IHOP specifically teaches that prophecy should avoid pointing out sin, correction, or rebuking. In the very same passage you used to defend IHOP's prophecy policy, the Bible states:
1 Cor 14:24 But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25 and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare so he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!".
THIS is the purpose of prophets:
Eph 4:11 It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Prophecy is about building up, teaching, correcting, rebuking, reaching unity in faith and knowledge of CHRIST specifically. It's not about fluffy flattering positive messages and vague psychic-like predictions based on feelings and senses. Biblical prophets who prophecied future events were specific and accurate [Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10-11].
Contrary to IHOP, anyone claiming to prophesy IS stepping into a prophet's shoes according to the very same 1 Cor 14 that IHOP continually uses:
1 Cor 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prohets are subject to the control of prophets.
Question: How do you Biblically justify IHOP's policy telling people to not repeat everything God told them in light of these scriptures: Jer 23:26, Jer 23:21-22.
Question: How do you Biblically justify IHOP's 'no details, only positive' policy when 1 Cor 14 states that prophecy will point out and convict people of their sin and bare their hearts?
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Question 3: Where can I find the three eschelons of prophecy in the Bible that are defined by IHOP [simple prophecy, prophetic ministry, office of Prophet?
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Looks like Charra Boasso already did... 1 Corinthians 14:3... edification, exhoration, and comfort to men...
None of those scriptures explain and account for IHOP's alleged levels of varying prophetic ability and inaccuracy, so this question remains unanswered. Since 1 Cor 14 proclaims those who prophesy to be prophets, IHOP's prophesiers must be held to the Biblical standard for prophets.
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I am not trying to tell you that IHOP is 100% correct in it's theology, because none of us are. However, I am trying to tell you that IHOP's theological errors, whichever ones are actually error, are no greater than any other error to be found in "acceptable" churches.
Again, you do yourself or IHOP no favors with that statement. "We're no worse than any other church' doesn't answer the questions or make scripture go away. None of us are comparing which ministry is 'better'. We are asking you to give an account for what you so vehemently defend.
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If you problem is Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, John Paul Jackson or any other person you associate with the KCP, have a problem with those guys...... but not IHOP. IHOP is merely one cog in a rather large wheel... and not the wheel itself.
There is no separating the two. Because there were huge problems with the false prophets of KC, there are therefore huge problems with IHOP since IHOP was formed by one of those false prophets. Bickle has clearly brought his errors right into IHOP, and this can be seen in everything we're pointing out.
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Question 4: Where does the Bible state that ALL believers will prophesy? Please provide those scriptures.
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Onc again, 1st Corinthians 14 is the most pressing.... "earnestly desire spiritual gifts, bretheren, but especially that you may prophesy."...
Paul told them to desire the gifts [plural]. He never said all would have the gift. He would have been contradicting himself if he had promised them all the gift of prophecy, since he also states:
1 Cor 12: 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy...
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kind of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets?...
Rom 12: 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion of his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage...
What part of 'We have different gifts' isn't clear to you?
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As someone who is trying to disprove that the prophetic even exists anymore...
Actually, I've never said prophecy couldn't exist. My contention is that it doesn't exist within IHOP given their self-confessed track record of failure. When compared to the Bible, IHOP's definitions, rules, and standards for prophecy have been tested and found severly lacking.
Thanks, Adam.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/7/2007 1:12:23 PM >
_____________________________
Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/7/2007 1:15:16 PM
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lw9
Posts: 879
Joined: 7/22/2005
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FurGodWurLivin:
On another note: False prophets can make some true prophecies, Adam. Just because a person gives some prophecies that come true doesn't automatically make them of God:
Deut 13:1 If a prophet , or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God… You must purge the evil from among you.
When everything is tested cumulatively - all prophetic messages, all new policies and rules, all teachings - things will come to light. Better safe than sorry, and it never hurts to be aware and on your guard, does it?
Just keep that scripture in mind in the coming months, in the coming year, and at all times.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/7/2007 6:31:47 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
FurGodWurLivin:
On another note: False prophets can make some true prophecies, Adam. Just because a person gives some prophecies that come true doesn't automatically make them of God:
Deut 13:1 If a prophet , or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God… You must purge the evil from among you.
This verse seems to be stating that the character and intent of a prophet's heart is more important than even if his words are true or not. His words could be fulfilled, but if his intent is to lead people away from God, then he is false. He is proven to have bad character. God looks at the thoughts and intent of the heart and that is more important and defines who we are more than any words we say.
And note that the prophet was to be put to death because of his REBELLION against God, attempting to lead people to worship false gods.
I agree that we are NEVER to listen to someone who, in rebellion against the true God, attempts to point people in a different direction than Christ. Thankfully, Mike Bickle does not do this. He is always pointing to Jesus.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 4:03:01 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
On another note: False prophets can make some true prophecies, Adam. Just because a person gives some prophecies that come true doesn't automatically make them of God:
Deut 13:1 If a prophet , or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God… You must purge the evil from among you. Mental note..... if anyone from the KCP says to follow someone other than God, declare them a false prophet...... and I think we're good here. The thing I really love about your argument is that there is no grace. If you slip once with your tongue, you are a false prophet that needs to be stoned.... if you are correct and your doctrine isn't completely perfect, you should be stoned. I agree, if someone falls off the track of preaching that Jesus isn't God or that we should all be baal worshippers, we should nix them... since none of the KCP did, we can put that argument to rest.quote:
quote:
Question 1: Where can I find the following concept from IHOP in the Bible [that most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God's words, and therefore errors.]?
quote:
Okay, this is not a biblical matter. IHOP says that the revelation that we get FROM GOD is correct... however, the words out of OUR mouths are generally not...
With answers like that, though, can you blame people for questioning IHOP's Biblical validity? How is accuracy in prophecy NOT a Biblical matter when God Himself has made it a Biblical matter?
People are going to question IHOP's Biblical validity no matter what I say here. The real problem is that your doctrine doesn't translate into reality. If someone must be 100% accurate everytime they say they might have a prophetic utterance or else keep silent, then prophecy has truly ceased to be.quote:
Fact: The Bible has set very strict standards for prophecy and for prophets, which has already been presented several times.
Fact: IHOP has taken it upon itself to rewrite those standards according to how it suits their needs. IHOP is in complete contradiction with God on this matter. If IHOP's 'mixture' can't be supported Biblically, then this is a man-inspired, man-created new 'rule' that should be rejected rather than defended. (A), the Bible has set strict standards on Prophets and the words they speak... true. Prophets are not the only ones who Prophesy (also true, remember King Saul and his various soldiers..... "Is Saul also among the prophets?") (B) IHOP has not re-written the Bible, but rather has grace for the less-than-perfect. Our ministry is not steered by Average Joe giving a word he thinks MIGHT be God. Rather, IHOP is steered by a Biblical mandate to worship God in spirit and in truth. Note: "You should not act on a prophetic word, but the word should be confirming what God has already told you." The real problem is, how do we attain to perfection (or "maturity") in a gifting, particularly those with a prophetic gifting, WITHOUT slipping or having diffculties? Jonah is a good enough example that being a prophet doesn't mean you take a back seat and God just operates your mouth independent of you, which means there is always the possibility of error because we are dealing with humans. If there is no room for error, then there is no room for ministry of any kind... because not a one of us is perfect in anything.quote:
Hearing the truth - whether good news or bad - IS edifying. Niether here nor there. As I have said, simple prophecy is not the editing and censoring of things that aren't politically correct, rather saying the word in a way that IS edifying. All scripture is God breathed, and is good for teaching, rebuking, doctrine, and all that jazz.... prophecy and scripture are two different things. Iddo the Seer... the guy was a prophet of God in Israel... strange there is no "Book of Iddo" in the Old Testament....
Okay.... so, the truth is always edifying..... "Yes, honey... that dress does make you look exceedingly fat." **slap**. So much for that theory.quote:
That is what strengthens us and edifies us, yet IHOP specifically teaches that prophecy should avoid pointing out sin, correction, or rebuking. Because it is not the place of one Christian to correct another. How can you say to your brother, let me take the speck from you eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? First, remove the plank from your own eye so that you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's. For example, if I rebuke you saying, "you come across as unloving, and that is unbiblical!" What would you be more likely to do? Consider what I'm saying and think about softening your tone....... or justify yourself by telling me that I'm just "under conviction"?quote:
THIS is the purpose of prophets:
Eph 4:11 It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Prophecy is about building up, teaching, correcting, rebuking, reaching unity in faith and knowledge of CHRIST specifically. It's not about fluffy flattering positive messages and vague psychic-like predictions based on feelings and senses. Biblical prophets who prophecied future events were specific and accurate [Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10-11]. Once again, we find ourselves talking about two seperate things. You are talking about Apostles and Prophets.... in the case of the scriptures you quoted, Apostles, who have direct spiritual authority over the church. Simple prophecy is not about flattery or "psychic like predictions". It is about Edification, exhoration, and comfort..... like I keep telling you. For example, telling someone "I just feel like God wants me to tell you that he is going to be with you during the tough times ahead", That is not vague, or flattering. If it is what you feel like God is telling you, then you have told the truth. Flattery would be "God says He loves you so much more than Bob, He is going to give you a special anointing to carry His spirit through the valley of the Shadow of DEATH...." Vague would be more along the lines of "I see..... I see.... an envelope! The envelope has your name on it, but the address isn't right.... hmmm..." Anybody remember Joseph and his dreams? His brothers despised him because he had these dreams of wheat and stars.... the man was no prophet, but he had prophetic dreams.... the dreams were true (based on the rest of Genesis)... His brothers were so edified they carried their brother off into the desert on their shoulders and dumped him in a well. Now, Joseph's dreams could easily be called "flattery" or "psychic-like and vague", but they ended up in the Bible.... pretty hefty prophecy for a guy who wasn't a prophet.quote:
Contrary to IHOP, anyone claiming to prophesy IS stepping into a prophet's shoes according to the very same 1 Cor 14 that IHOP continually uses: Big difference between wearing the shoes and buying the matching overcoat. Never does the Bible say that ONLY Prophets can prophesy, and so IHOP has designed a safe place for non-prophets to develope their ability in hearing God, and a safe place for people to be ministered to by people who hear God. You keep talking about rules relating to Prophets, and I keep telling you that we are NOT Prophets.quote:
Question: How do you Biblically justify IHOP's policy telling people to not repeat everything God told them in light of these scriptures: Jer 23:26, Jer 23:21-22.
Question: How do you Biblically justify IHOP's 'no details, only positive' policy when 1 Cor 14 states that prophecy will point out and convict people of their sin and bare their hearts? First off, we are not prophets. I really can't say that any more clearly. Secondly, 1st Corinthians 14 says nothing about prophecying to uncover sin. It says that if all are prophesying, the unbeliever is convinced by all and convicted by all. This is not talking about someone saying "Thou art a sinner and hast committed these sins," but rather is one man prophesying to another, and the sinner realises that God is among them, it is that easy.quote:
We are asking you to give an account for what you so vehemently defend. Vehemently defend? Need I remind you that this thread began as someone asking for information and has turned into people accusing the ministry of basically being decieved and under the direction of Satan. I don't defend IHOP any more vigorously then you would defend your own church/ministry/denomination because (A) my calling for the time being is to be at IHOP (no, I didn't get that from anyone else but God), (B) the people AT the House of Prayer are not only my fellow Christians, but my spiritual family, and (C) there is no reason for crying wolf based on the arguments against it. You disagree on the application of prophecy.... fine, but look at what you DO agree on. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, He came and died for the sins of the world, the Bible is the only fully inspired Word of God, Jesus is returning soon to destroy the works of the evil one and establish his own physical kingdom, and people are getting saved/set free/matured in God by attending the International House of Prayer. At what point can we put away infighting and accusation, and agree on what we agree on? The application of prophecy does NOT affect one's salvation (thank God, otherwise many people would be in deep soup), and as such is a peripheral to our relationship to God Himself. Remember, always look at the fruit. I have seen people of every denomination (almost) who have walked away from churches, ministries, relationships, w/e with a broken heart, bitter spirit, however you would like to phrase it. I put no stock in people who lash out angrily against their former associations, because we are not to sin in our anger. I honestly don't really care what you think about IHOP because you are going to think what you are going to think... however, I keep hoping that someone will see that there is no "dark, mysterious" secret to IHOP. You have a problem with something you believe we say or do? Come down and visit us... if you still don't like it, you are welcome to your opinion... but there is always the danger of actually getting touched by something God is doing here.quote:
quote:
If you problem is Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, John Paul Jackson or any other person you associate with the KCP, have a problem with those guys...... but not IHOP. IHOP is merely one cog in a rather large wheel... and not the wheel itself.
There is no separating the two. Because there were huge problems with the false prophets of KC, there are therefore huge problems with IHOP since IHOP was formed by one of those false prophets. Bickle has clearly brought his errors right into IHOP, and this can be seen in everything we're pointing out. Huge problems........ based on the Expose written by one Ernie Gruen? Based on someone who got too caught up in "oh, revival!"? As I said, if you have a problem with the KCP, have a problem with the KCP. However, there is a definite line drawn between the KCP and the International House of Prayer. One was a gathering of prophets, the other is a group of Christians praying in a strip-mall in Grandview, Missouri. Unless you have a problem with prayer and fasting... in which case I really can't help you.quote:
Paul told them to desire the gifts [plural]. He never said all would have the gift. He would have been contradicting himself if he had promised them all the gift of prophecy, since he also states:
1 Cor 12: 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy...
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kind of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets?...
Rom 12: 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion of his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage...
What part of 'We have different gifts' isn't clear to you? Please tone down the condescension... it's unnecessary. We do all have different spiritual gifts. However, all have the ability to hear God (my sheep hear my voice). Since prophesy is hearing God, we all have the ability to prophesy. Unless Paul's prayers and exhorations in 1 Corinthians 14 are in all vain (earnestly desire spiritual gifts, BUT ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy; I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; But if ALL prophesy; For you can ALL prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged; Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues), all should be able to prophesy.quote:
When compared to the Bible, IHOP's definitions, rules, and standards for prophecy have been tested and found severly lacking. Correction, according to SOME, the standards have been found lacking. If you are actually done arguing your point because you are satisfied that you have (not) proven me a lier or an unthinking/decieved simpleton, then I guess have fun... Prayer and fasting (which is the basis of IHOP's ministry and not prophecy) is always right.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 11:23:08 AM
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sue244
Posts: 531
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Question 1: Where can I find the following concept from IHOP in the Bible [that most prophecy contains a mixture of our words with God's words, and therefore errors.]?
quote:
Okay, this is not a biblical matter. IHOP says that the revelation that we get FROM GOD is correct... however, the words out of OUR mouths are generally not...
With answers like that, though, can you blame people for questioning IHOP's Biblical validity? How is accuracy in prophecy NOT a Biblical matter when God Himself has made it a Biblical matter?
People are going to question IHOP's Biblical validity no matter what I say here. The real problem is that your doctrine doesn't translate into reality. If someone must be 100% accurate everytime they say they might have a prophetic utterance or else keep silent, then prophecy has truly ceased to be.
You know I think its instersting for people who love to bring up the fact that God is the same yesterday today and forever, are the same people who insist that God can't have people be 100% in their prophecies today like He did during Biblical Times. I just find it instersting that Prophets of the OT who only had the Holy Spirit upon them could be way more accurate, and specfic then so call prophets now a days that have the Holy Sprit indewlling them. I would think that its easier to guide from the inside then the outside, and yet we hold the the former to the higher, Biblical standard then the latter. Instersting. But of coarse the idea that prophecy has ceased could never be so we must come to the conclusion that they no longer have to be 100% 
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 11:35:21 AM
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floydette
Posts: 697
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
You know I think its instersting for people who love to bring up the fact that God is the same yesterday today and forever, are the same people who insist that God can't have people be 100% in their prophecies today like He did during Biblical Times.
This is the grand paradox of our Father. ( at least it in ONE of them) He is both unchanging (in his character - he was trustworthy and remains so) and yet he is every changing (in his methodology - he used hymns 60 yrs ago, and yet can use rock bands today). This is what makes Him so totally amazing, intriguing and incredible.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 12:04:39 PM
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sue244
Posts: 531
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
You know I think its instersting for people who love to bring up the fact that God is the same yesterday today and forever, are the same people who insist that God can't have people be 100% in their prophecies today like He did during Biblical Times.
This is the grand paradox of our Father. ( at least it in ONE of them) He is both unchanging (in his character - he was trustworthy and remains so) and yet he is every changing (in his methodology - he used hymns 60 yrs ago, and yet can use rock bands today). This is what makes Him so totally amazing, intriguing and incredible.
That wasn't the point I was making. Yes methods change but standards don't. God's standard is part of what makes Him trustworthy. So if He said that a prophet must be 100% then that standard is unchanging. IF not then one must ask why we trust the BIble at all. Or if that was just for the OT why do I trust the NT at all. The same God who allowed the prophets and writer of the Bible to be 100% accurate is the same God of today so would it not follow that if He had prophets today they would also be 100% accurate to follow the mandate that God has already set down for a prophet?
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 12:21:06 PM
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floydette
Posts: 697
Status: offline
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If we were to follow that line of logic, would not the law still be something that we have to follow? Or would not sacrifices still be in place? Or go to the temple, or to Jerusalem for the feasts? Or would we not......(fill in the blanks with lots of OT "standards" that God had.) Jesus came to fulfill the law. He was very subversive and radical. I don't know if we can fit the manner in which prophets were to perform in the OT to the manner in which they perform in the NT. If we did, we'd have to change the way we do alot of things and resort to the OT in many ways.
BTW, I know there is a thread for "law" discussion. I am not attempting to make this into that. Simply using it as an example.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 12:41:02 PM
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sue244
Posts: 531
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith" Gal 3:24
I can back up saying that we are no longer under the law from the Bible. And that the point of the law was always to point us to Christ. Now if you can show from the Bible that a prophet no longer has to be 100% accurate then by all means please show. The burden of proff for this change in God's standard for prophet is on you not me. I rest on what the Word of God says. And even if your saying that was only for the OT prophets you then have the problem of why we trust that the NT is 100% accurate. That is a paradox I would not want to explain. I would rather rest in the fact that God is able to have prophets throughout all ages be 100% accurate.
Here's a quesiton will the 2 witnesses talked about in Revelation 11 be 100% accurate in their prophecies? And if they can be 100% why can't 'prophets' of today?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 7:15:05 PM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGod
Mental note..... if anyone from the KCP says to follow someone other than God, declare them a false prophet...... and I think we're good here. The thing I really love about your argument is that there is no grace. If you slip once with your tongue, you are a false prophet that needs to be stoned.... if you are correct and your doctrine isn't completely perfect, you should be stoned.
I think that is the huge difference between the new covenant of grace and the old covenant of the law. The law demands perfection, but grace does not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGod
The real problem is that your doctrine doesn't translate into reality. If someone must be 100% accurate everytime they say they might have a prophetic utterance or else keep silent, then prophecy has truly ceased to be.
That's why I've said that it's difficult to talk to someone about a gift if they don't have that gift. Not that it shouldn't be done, but that it's difficult. If you don't have the gift of prophecy then how do you answer the questions of HOW God speaks. Is it an audible voice? Is it a little voice in your heart? How does it look like or sound like? Will you understand that it's from God the very first time God ever speaks to you? Or will you wonder - "could that be you God or is that just my concern for that person?"
When Samuel was a little boy he heard God for the first time in an audible voice. He didn't recognize that voice at first and Eli had to instruct him who it was. Then a couple verses later it says that God didn't allow any of his words to fall to the ground. Sounding like Samuel could say just about anything he wanted, and because of the special favor God showed on him, God would make sure everything he said happened. We don't see that kind of favor being pointed out with all the other prophets, so we can only guess that perhaps Samuel was the only one who, from the beginning of his gifting, had EVERYTHING he said being upheld by God. Perhaps the other prophets were not so lucky and had to grow up and mature in the gift. Since so much is based on assumption, then you can't declare IHOP as 'false' simply because there is so much misunderstanding in scripture on the application of prophecy and whether prophets had to 'learn' their gifting or not.
quote:
You disagree on the application of prophecy.... fine, but look at what you DO agree on. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, He came and died for the sins of the world, the Bible is the only fully inspired Word of God, Jesus is returning soon to destroy the works of the evil one and establish his own physical kingdom, and people are getting saved/set free/matured in God by attending the International House of Prayer. At what point can we put away infighting and accusation, and agree on what we agree on?
Wow, wouldn't that be awesome? A church that talks about the things it agrees on. Like Jesus! Like His glorious sacrifice....we have lots and lots that we agree on.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 12/8/2007 7:46:23 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/8/2007 8:48:52 PM
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sue244
Posts: 531
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
When Samuel was a little boy he heard God for the first time in an audible voice. He didn't recognize that voice at first and Eli had to instruct him who it was. Then a couple verses later it says that God didn't allow any of his words to fall to the ground. Sounding like Samuel could say just about anything he wanted, and because of the special favor God showed on him, God would make sure everything he said happened. We don't see that kind of favor being pointed out with all the other prophets, so we can only guess that perhaps Samuel was the only one who, from the beginning of his gifting, had EVERYTHING he said being upheld by God. Perhaps the other prophets were not so lucky and had to grow up and mature in the gift. Since so much is based on assumption, then you can't declare IHOP as 'false' simply because there is so much misunderstanding in scripture on the application of prophecy and whether prophets had to 'learn' their gifting or not.
Wow there is a lot of assuming, and reading things into scripture that aren't there. If other 'prophets' weren't so lucky as you say they would never have had the chance to 'mature' in their gift since they would have been stone to death for being a false prophet. But I guess if we are going to ignore what scipture say and just impose what we want it to say by reading stuff into it anything can go.
What assumptions are you talking about? I see you making a lot of assumptions, such as prophets don't have to be 100% (which is not Biblical) that people have to learn gifts (again not Biblical) People are pointing out scripture showing where they stand, not making assumptions.
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My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/9/2007 1:36:25 AM
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mabel
Posts: 172
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we might be justified by faith" Gal 3:24
I can back up saying that we are no longer under the law from the Bible. And that the point of the law was always to point us to Christ. Now if you can show from the Bible that a prophet no longer has to be 100% accurate then by all means please show. The burden of proff for this change in God's standard for prophet is on you not me. I rest on what the Word of God says. And even if your saying that was only for the OT prophets you then have the problem of why we trust that the NT is 100% accurate. That is a paradox I would not want to explain.
As others have stated...you can read in God's word that prophets messed up. It's a wonder to me why there is so much expectation on the prophetic. We are human. God is not. Instead of expecting perfection, we should be looking for humilty. Is no different than any other gift.
quote:
I would rather rest in the fact that God is able to have prophets throughout all ages be 100% accurate.
Yep....He is able. Just like He's able to make pastors, teachers, etc. perfect and never mess up. But He doesn't. Why do you think that is?
Just want to add something here regarding comments such as
quote:
Hearing the truth - whether good news or bad - IS edifying. We are to be instructed, rebuked, and corrected when we're in the wrong. That is what strengthens us and edifies us, yet IHOP specifically teaches that prophecy should avoid pointing out sin, correction, or rebuking. In the very same passage you used to defend IHOP's prophecy policy, the Bible states:
1 Cor 14:24 But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25 and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare so he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!".
Sometimes someone doesn't need to be told they are in sin. Most likely they already know it. Sometimes, what a person needs is HOPE. It is not our job to convict others of sin....it is the Holy Spirit's job. And honestly, He doesn't really need our help. It is so easy to whack someone regarding their sin. Anyone can do that. How often christians wound our own. It greives our Fathers heart. What a prophetic word can do is to speak Truth into someone about what God wants them to be...not where they are. The very heart of prophecy is to KNOW God, and a desire for others to know Him. Yes, there are times when discipline may be necessary, but I have seen time after time how the Lord has used prophetic words to speak into someone's life and they NEVER mentioned sin.
We seem to forget about grace. Do we not think God has enough? We need to look at who He is, the great I AM. He is kind and loving...that is what His word says. He can't NOT be kind. And it is His kindness that leads us to repentence. The prophetic is about BUILDING. We must always be careful that we are not tearing down.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/9/2007 2:13:06 AM
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SD456
Posts: 362
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
When Samuel was a little boy he heard God for the first time in an audible voice. He didn't recognize that voice at first and Eli had to instruct him who it was. Then a couple verses later it says that God didn't allow any of his words to fall to the ground. Sounding like Samuel could say just about anything he wanted, and because of the special favor God showed on him, God would make sure everything he said happened. We don't see that kind of favor being pointed out with all the other prophets, so we can only guess that perhaps Samuel was the only one who, from the beginning of his gifting, had EVERYTHING he said being upheld by God. Perhaps the other prophets were not so lucky and had to grow up and mature in the gift. Since so much is based on assumption, then you can't declare IHOP as 'false' simply because there is so much misunderstanding in scripture on the application of prophecy and whether prophets had to 'learn' their gifting or not.
Wow there is a lot of assuming, and reading things into scripture that aren't there. If other 'prophets' weren't so lucky as you say they would never have had the chance to 'mature' in their gift since they would have been stone to death for being a false prophet. But I guess if we are going to ignore what scipture say and just impose what we want it to say by reading stuff into it anything can go.
What assumptions are you talking about? I see you making a lot of assumptions, such as prophets don't have to be 100% (which is not Biblical) that people have to learn gifts (again not Biblical) People are pointing out scripture showing where they stand, not making assumptions.
Actually I haven't read anything into scripture, I've simply pointed out that there is MUCH in scripture that isn't mentioned. We only get to see the prophets and read their stuff once they are fully mature and in the OFFICE of prophet. We aren't given any idea what was going on in their lives before that. (except for young Samuel) You are assuming that all the prophets were instantly mature and 100% correct at the get-go. Was Moses 100% correct when he killed the egyptian and ran away from Egypt? Or was he only considered to have a prophetic gift after the burning bush incident? Wouldn't the calling on his life, to be a prophet of God to God's people have been with him, though dormant, throughout his life? Did he make any mistakes in anything he did? Yes. Was he ever disobedient? Yes. Did he ever do something presumptiously thinking that it was how God wanted him to do it? Yes. Did he ever doubt God's word? Yes. I think Moses was human.
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 12/9/2007 9:54:10 AM
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mabel
Posts: 172
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
When Samuel was a little boy he heard God for the first time in an audible voice. He didn't recognize that voice at first and Eli had to instruct him who it was. Then a couple verses later it says that God didn't allow any of his words to fall to the ground. Sounding like Samuel could say just about anything he wanted, and because of the special favor God showed on him, God would make sure everything he said happened. We don't see that kind of favor being pointed out with all the other prophets, so we can only guess that perhaps Samuel was the only one who, from the beginning of his gifting, had EVERYTHING he said being upheld by God. Perhaps the other prophets were not so lucky and had to grow up and mature in the gift. Since so much is based on assumption, then you can't declare IHOP as 'false' simply because there is so much misunderstanding in scripture on the application of prophecy and whether prophets had to 'learn' their gifting or not.
Wow there is a lot of assuming, and reading things into scripture that aren't there. If other 'prophets' weren't so lucky as you say they would never have had the chance to 'mature' in their gift since they would have been stone to death for being a false prophet. But I guess if we are going to ignore what scipture say and just impose what we want it to say by reading stuff into it anything can go.
What assumptions are you talking about? I see you making a lot of assumptions, such as prophets don't have to be 100% (which is not Biblical) that people have to learn gifts (again not Biblical) People are pointing out scripture showing where they stand, not making assumptions.
Actually I haven't read anything into scripture, I've simply pointed out that there is MUCH in scripture that isn't mentioned. We only get to see the prophets and read their stuff once they are fully mature and in the OFFICE of prophet. We aren't given any idea what was going on in their lives before that. (except for young Samuel) You are assuming that all the prophets were instantly mature and 100% correct at the get-go. Was Moses 100% correct when he killed the egyptian and ran away from Egypt? Or was he only considered to have a prophetic gift after the burning bush incident? Wouldn't the calling on his life, to be a prophet of God to God's people have been with him, though dormant, throughout his life? Did he make any mistakes in anything he did? Yes. Was he ever disobedient? Yes. Did he ever do something presumptiously thinking that it was how God wanted him to do it? Yes. Did he ever doubt God's word? Yes. I think Moses was human.
That's true SD. Most of the prophets spent years with mentors. (Something the church is lacking these day, sadly  ). That doesn't mean God can't use anyone. Amos was minding his own business one day when God yanked him out of the fields. God is aware of our imperfectness. What He desires from us is that our hearts be fully surrendered to Him.
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