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FurGodWurLivin -> RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! (11/26/2007 8:23:12 AM)
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quote:
WE BELIEVE that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No ordinance, ritual, work or any other activity on the part of man is required or accepted in order to be saved. This saving grace of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, also sanctifies us by enabling us to do what is pleasing in God's sight in order that we might be progressively conformed to the image of Christ. [John 1:12–13, 6:37–44 and 10:25–30; Acts 16:30–31; Romans 3–4 and 8:1–17, 31-39 and 10:8–10; Ephesians 2:8–10; Philippians 2:12–13; Titus 3:3–7; 1 John 1:7, 9]
I would consider repentance "an activity on the part of man". Is repentance not required for salvation according to IHOP's teachings? Ray, Repentance is necessary for salvation. Mike would tell you that, just like any of the other leaders would. The idea is that while we were still sinners Christ died for us and that while we were still enemies of God, He sent His Son to purchase the forgiveness of sins. Note that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. Essentially this is combating the myth that IHOP somehow teaches you need to fast or pray a certain number of hours each week to "get saved"... which is totally not true.quote:
Let me tell you a little about where I am coming from so you know that my intent is not to attack or smear IHOP or Mike Bickle. I'm more than willing to trust you on that. Know that you will find many mixed reactions to anything involving Mike Bickle, or any other movement that gets lumped in with Charismata... some of it is good information (IE, the refuting of WoF errors), and some of it is knee-jerk balogna (IE, just because someone says God wants you wealthy, healthy, and happy doesn't make them a heretic).quote:
One of my former ministers used to say almost on a weekly basis, "Do not believe or take to the grave any thing I tell you. Instead, take everything I tell you and dig in your Bible and see if what I'm telling you lines up with the Word of God." Welcome to the club. There is quite a bit of doctrine that I believe to be true now that doesn't break my heart a bit if I find out later it is wrong. There are several pillars of my faith that will not move no matter how hard someone pushes or what evidence they present (IE, Jesus WAS a man who was also God, Jesus DID die for the sins of the world, Jesus IS coming again... that kind of stuff), but that is the basics... everything else is to be held with an open hand.quote:
I had that personnal belief long before he was my pastor, but I appreciated him so much saying that to the congregation so regularly. I believe as believers it is our responsibility to get to know the heart of God and what he whats to say to us personnally. We are part of a body. We all have different roles. If we are all being spoon fed the exact same thing, I believe our individual roles can all get jumbled together. Agreed. If everybody gets milk, nobody ever grows up.quote:
I do sincerely thank you for your post, and I will post specific questions for you when I have them.
For starters may ask,
Does IHOP have evangelistic outreaches? and if so,
I assume the training/ internships teach you how to lead someone to Christ? and if so,
Can you please explain the process in which that is done? (Pretend you are leading me to Christ.) Should you have more questions, I welcome them. Yes, IHOP does have evangelistic outreaches... at least twice a week, in fact. Not to mention the number of staff members who go out to do ministry trips around the world, the local conferences in Kansas City, the regional OneThing conferences, and local specialized outreaches. The internships, as I said, are mostly about building one's personal relationship with God. IHOP tells you that their main ministry is the prayer room. Which essentially means it a ministry geared towards preparing the Body of Christ... much like your local church would. Now, in the Fire in the Night internship, they do have an evangelism class for the interns to help prepare them for preaching the gospel. Most of the teaching for specifics like that is done in the context of the Forerunner School of Ministry, a full-time Bible College that is operated by and connected with the International House of Prayer.
The process of leading someone to Christ.... that is a big question. The main thing they taught me in the evangelism class I took in the internship is the same one that Spurgeon used... live meekly, preach 90% law and 10% grace. The concept being that people will not appreciate the gift of forgiveness if they don't understand how badly they really need it. This doesn't mean fire-and-brimstone-throw-a-Bible type stuff, but it does mean having a comprehensive understanding of what the human condition actually is. So, were I to be evangelising someone in the room, I would start by asking them if they thought they were a good person. If they said yes, then I start asking politely about the ten commandments (IE, if you have ever told a lie). After going through some of that, point out that the Bible says they are a sinner. If they don't fall down and repent, don't worry about it... the conscience has a way of working people over. God doesn't actually "need" me to "get someone saved"... all He needs is them, and their willingness to repent. Evangelism that isn't about quantity.... but quality. Hope that helps some.quote:
Bickle left the KC Prophets/Latter Rain/Toronto Blessing junk he was into and resurfaced with another (just as false) Church (IHOP) and teaching...Mysticism/Contemplative Spirituality. You can read about that HERE. I've seen that link before... Most of it is taken well out of context. It's true, we do have much to learn from the middle ages saints. Until you have the spiritual authority to single-handedly stop a war(like Bernard of Clairveaux) and have the pope kiss your feet (like Francis of Assisi), I think we have something to learn from them. Shall I mention how St Patrick prayed 100+ times a day and pretty much evangelised Ireland? Shall I mention how St. Anthony of Alexandria prayed for 20 years in the middle of the desert and had people flocking to him to be healed, saved, and preached to? Theresa of Avila and Jeanne Guyon both taught people to follow a lifestyle of humility and constant communion with God. Now, none of these people were perfect, and none of them had flawless doctrine (neither do any of us, if we are honest)... but the things these people got right were so right that they turned their corner of the world upside-down during their lives. Too bad a country of 300 million where 85% claim to be Christian can't do the same. Plus, lets face it... extreme actions in the pursuit of God is somewhat frowned upon by the church at large. Need I remind anyone of the big argument we had about the forty day fast leading up to 07/07/07 (even though it was after the fact)? I can't tell you how many times I have been fasting and had people snap at me for being "legalistic" and "holier than thou". Even now when I tell people that I pray for four hours a night six nights a week, people ask me "what about balance"? Mike would tell you that the mystics (or contemplatives, as he does prefer to call them) did not have all of their doctrine straight... many of them, he can even tell you what their error was... but that doesn't mean they got EVERYTHING wrong either. Mike is all about telling the IHOP Staff, don't judge other people based on your standards, and don't judge yourself based on a standard that doesn't exist... If you screw up, and you know you screwed up, "repent, push delete, and move on."
I would love for someone to tell me what Mike's big error or evil sin are. Everytime I ask, all I get is people pointing back to the Kansas City Prophets thing (even though Mike says he is no prophet), or the doctrinal errors of the Mystics (which errors Mike doesn't promote anyway). Mike would tell you the same thing he tells anybody about reading a theology book... read it with a grain of salt. Considering that Mike and several others have distanced themselves from the KCP, I think it is really just a vain repetition to keep dragging it up. As I have said, you have living proof on this side of the computer screen that IHOP is doing at least some good.
Adam
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