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free will - 1/14/2008 10:58:45 PM
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dustymb
Posts: 7
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Are we free? I don’t mean freedom like the freedom of a U.S. citizen compared to a Cuban. Nor do I mean freedom of a free man compared to a slave. What I mean is, do we cut our own path in this life? That would seem to be the general consensus. It feels good to think that we are in control or calling the shots. However just because it feels good to think we are in control does not make it so. If we are completely free then what is the role of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God in this universe. He didn’t just wind up the earth and let it go as the deists believe. Nor does He Just sit in heaven showering blessings on those who do all that He has commanded; or those who think they are pleasing Him. He is fully involved in His creation. There are two questions that I would like to convey and even answer. 1.) What is the usefulness of seeking a stance on such a subject like God’s providence? It may seem trivial to some to delve into such a theological topic, or to others it may seem like staring into an abyss, but as Christians we should always be seeking to bring nearer to perfection our perception of the awesome God who redeemed us. 2.) “How in control is God of everything that happens in this world”? We certainly like to think, that when things are going good, we are the ones who brought it about. This comes naturally to man, just as it is natural to shake our fist at God when things go wrong.
Let’s begin with a word I just used; the word natural. To us today it might seem strange to say that a morally perfect man is natural; or that it would be natural for a lion to lie down with a lamb. That is because we have so closely associated the word natural with normal, such as when a natural climate cycle results in normal temperatures: or to be normal is natural and to be natural is normal. However, what we consider to be natural is really quite unnatural. The pre-fall state of creation is natural. What is natural is for God’s perfect creation to endure until everlasting without a trace of decay. What the first man Adam did was to become unnatural through sin. It is natural for a man to be fully alive physically and spiritually. It says in Genesis 2:17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” We know that Adam did not die physically when he ate the fruit, after all he did live to be 930 years old. But God said “when you eat of it” The when should imply an immediate recompense of some sort and it does. Adam did die eventually but immediately he experienced spiritual death as a result of his disobedience, and became unnatural. Paul states in Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned”. And in Romans 5:19 “For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners”. It was after Adam’s sin that he became the natural man we know so well. He is the Genesis 6:5 man wherein it says “The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time” And just so we don’t mistakenly think that the human race has somehow been purged of evil in the flood, and that Noah’s righteousness has saved us, God says again in Genesis 8:21, “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.”
The spiritual death that we have received from posterity has also made us enemies of God as Paul states in Colossians 1:21 “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.” The gut reaction of just about anybody who is told that they were or are now an enemy of God, is that they believe to the contrary. One of the wonderful things about God for the believer is that God is not the God of gray areas; He is the God of black and white, friend or foe as Jesus states in Luke 11:23, “Anyone who is not with me is against me”. Before the point of trusting in Christ alone through faith alone we are enemies of God. When Jesus says in Matthew 5:9, “blessed are the peacemakers”, he is not talking about people breaking up fights and arguments. Jesus is talking about those who carry the gospel, to a world hostile towards God, so that those who are warring against God in their minds might have peace with their Creator. This is why Paul writes in Romans 5:10, “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life”. It is so important that we know the fullness of our redemption as much as is humanly possible, so that we might better know and love our redeemer. Unfortunately in the modern evangelical church there is such a pragmatic bent in all of the teaching and preaching that spiritual maturity is no longer judged by godly biblical standards, but by human standards or mystical subjective experience. In the world of modern evangelical pragmatism spiritual immaturity is the norm rather than the exception. And if one grows in his convictions and is brave enough to exhort and awaken those who have lulled he is branded an extreme fundamentalist. In this way spiritual maturity is so oppressed so that people are more encouraged to waver between two opinions rather than settle on the truth that may offend man’s more fleshly sensibilities. In other words, to have convictions is merely to be “narrow minded”. The writer of Hebrews does not speak well of such groups in chapter 5:12-13, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant”.
I have above shed just a touch of light on the depravity of man, which is so vital for the Christian to grasp, in order to receive the Lord’s gospel as a little child. This understanding of man’s natural condition, even though I have only scratched the surface of what scripture teaches about his depravity, brings me back around to my first question, “are we free”. As far as the natural man is concerned he is free in one way. He is free only to be in bondage to sin. It is a paradox, but sinful man is only free to operate within the bounds that perdition permits. The unregenerate man is not free. Jesus says in John 8:34, “everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.” A slave does not have a free choice in anything, but must do what his master commands. The natural man goes beyond this however, in that he desires to do the will of his slave master. He is willfully in bondage. Jesus goes on to say in John 8:44, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father”. Man, being a slave to sin, is completely unable to free himself. We must conclude as the scripture so clearly states that he is not free. Are all of his ways chosen for him though? Let’s hold off on that question for a moment until we have observed God in relation to the subject.
God is indeed everything He has proclaimed Himself to be in the scriptures. He is infinitely merciful, loving, faithful, and good. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.(Ezekiel 33:11) Rather, His pleasure is that they turn from their wicked ways and live. We can also be so thankful that He does not change as we so often do. 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie, or change His mind; for He is not a man, that He should change His mind.” Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you O descendants of Jacob are not destroyed.” I sometimes like to rephrase that verse in my head. It goes like this, “I the Lord do not change. So you Dustin Butler are not destroyed”. That is refreshing. It is refreshing because I know some other things about God. That He is infinitely holy, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, just, self sustaining, transcendent, wise, and sovereign. That sounds like One who is to be feared and beheld in awe! We must take seriously the business of growing in our knowledge of God. A.W. Tozer wrote in his book “The Knowledge of the Holy”, “No religion has ever been greater than its idea of god. Worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low thoughts of God.
Our God is a dangerous God. Isaiah would agree in Isaiah 6:5 wherein he exclaims after seeing the Lord on His throne, “Woe to me! I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty”. Here are a few other examples that should cause one to tremble.
Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can kill both body and soul in hell.”
Hebrews 12:29 “God is a consuming fire”
2 Samuel 6:6-7 “When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.”
Leviticus 10:1-2 “Aarons sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to His command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
Jeremiah 25:30-38 “Now prophesy all these words to them and say to them: “The Lord will roar from on high; He will thunder from His holy dwelling and roar mightily against His land. He will shout like those who tread the grapes, shout against all who live on the earth. The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth, for the Lord will bring charges against the nations; He will bring judgment against all mankind and put the wicked to the sword”, declares the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Look! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth.” At that time those slain by the Lord will be everywhere from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground. “Weep and wail, you shepherds; roll in the dust you leaders of the flock. For your time to be slaughtered has come; you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery. The shepherds will have nowhere to flee, the leaders of the flock no place to escape. Hear the cry of the shepherds, the wailing of the leaders of the flock, for the lord is destroying their pasture. The peaceful meadows will be laid waste because of the fierce anger of the Lord. Like a lion He will leave His lair, and there land will become desolate because of the sword of the oppressor and because of the Lord’s fierce anger.”
Psalm 2:12 “Kiss the Son, lest He be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for His wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in Him.”
I could go on if I thought I needed to, but I don’t. He is a dangerous God and Jesus did not come to abolish the law, or Him, for He is God. Many Christians do not study the Old Testament and many still have never read it. For them, all too often, there is a disconnect in their ability to connect the Son to the Father in their own minds. They shudder to think that it was the pre-incarnate Chist or “the Angel of the Lord” who put to death all of the firstborn in Egypt, who struck Uzzah for treating what is Holy as a common thing. It was He who struck down 185,000 in the Assyrian camp surrounding Jerusalem in a single night, but He did condescend to dwell among us in a far different manner than this, for He in His infinite mercy and wisdom “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in the appearance of a man He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death, even death on the cross.”(Phillipians 2:6-8) It does appear that our God has more than a wide range of options in His creation. It is quite clear that God has complete control over His creation.
That leads to the favorite question of every “free thinker”; “If God is completely controlling everything then where did evil come from?” “If it is as you say then evil would have to come from God.” Certainly we would have to begin by looking at several key scriptures to make quite clear that God did not create evil. God made everything good as it says in Genesis 1:31a “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.” There was nothing evil in any of what God had made. Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good”---. James 1:13b “For God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone;” We must realize the most fundamental difference between us and God. God is not a created being like we are. God is infinite and does not change.(Malachi 3:6) God cannot go from good to evil and back again. He is perfectly incorruptible. Just because we are created beings does not necessitate corruptibility; after all, vegetation cannot willfully sin. It is because we are created beings made in the image of God that leaves us susceptible to corruption; we have the ability to reason. If God made us susceptible to corruption that in no wise makes Him responsible. And as for “the tempter” it is no different. Just because the devil tempts and God chooses to allow it or restrain it does not make God the tempter. The original propensity for evil must be understood to lie somewhere in the (pre-fall) good creature rather than the infinitely good Creator.
God did indeed make a beautiful creation that was good, but I don’t think that when Eve tasted the fruit that He went and sulked about it saying, “Why does this always happen whenever I make anything?” I know that God intended to create this universe so that He could make man in His own image, susceptible to corruption, so that God the Father could bring into existence true worshipers who are not susceptible to corruption, through the blood of God the Son, that we might have holy fellowship with Him into everlasting. When I say true worshipers I mean worshipers who have witnessed His complete revelation such as, His wisdom, grace, faithfulness, goodness, mercy, justice, love, holiness, etc. Were it not for all things that have taken place, these attributes of God could not be known by His creatures thereby leaving Him only known in part. True worshipers must know the God they worship.
Hypothetically, what if God after having made mankind and establishing them said to His heavenly host, “Who will go and entice the woman to eat from the tree from which I have commanded, you must not eat from this tree?” Satan then stepped forward and said, “I will go and entice the woman.” Then God said, “You will succeed in enticing the woman. Go and do it.” Again this is purely hypothetical, but I am not just pulling such a possibility out of a black hat. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 “Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.” Whether or not the fall of man happened just like this, I do not know, but I do know that God predestined this fall of man to come to pass. Our God is a predestining God. God is not whimsical or foolish, but He is perfect in wisdom. It was not incidental after man sinned and fell that God chose to add to Himself manhood in the person of Jesus Christ. He had purposed this very thing from eternity past. I cannot leave it said like that without desiring intensely to emphasize the perfect and awe inspiring love that the Lord has shown in this eternally binding decision. Our King’s decrees are irrevocable; He is the standard of faithfulness, and it is the Lord that brings all things to pass so that His purpose can be fulfilled. Is 46:10 “Declaring the end {and} the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure {and} purpose,” Now we are getting back to the original question; “are we free?”. Before I answer that clearly lets consider some passages in which God Himself tells us.
Proverbs 16:9 “A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps {and} makes them sure”
Proverbs 19:21 “Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand.”
Proverbs 20:24 “Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way?”
Proverbs 16:33 “The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him”
Matthew 10:29 “Are not two little sparrows sold for a penny? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's leave (consent) {and} notice”
Ephesians 1:4 “Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, {even} above reproach, before Him in love.”
Ephesians 1:5 “For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]”—
Ephesians 2:10 “For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]”.
Psalms “139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them.”
Daniel 4:34-35 “And at the end of the days [seven years], I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up my eyes to heaven, and my understanding {and} the right use of my mind returned to me; and I blessed the Most High [God] and I praised and honored {and} glorified Him Who lives forever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion; and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing. And He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand or say to Him, What are You doing?”
1 Peter 2:8 “And, A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give [men] offense; they stumble because they disobey {and} disbelieve [God's] Word, as those [who reject Him] were destined (appointed) to do.”
Romans 8:29-30 “For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].”
Ephesians 1:11 “In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) {and} we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel {and} design of His [own] will,”
Romans 9:15-18 “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.”
Acts 4:28 “To carry out all that Your hand and Your will {and} purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur.”
What should our response be to these passages of scripture? How can we conclude after such evidence that we are free. Can we be unaffected by this and still be honest introspectively. There are a million objections to such a powerful truth as predestination. Most are very philosophical in which we indirectly hold God to a human standard where such doctrines like this are trimmed away leaving an emaciated god who is quite docile and harmless and might fit nicely on our mantle. In these philosophical objections are found a whole host of idolatrous ideals. We as Christians must avoid at all costs, the introduction of human philosophy and sentiment into our personal systematic theology. And to remain silent where we are scripturally ignorant is virtuous. And to grow in the knowledge of God is a command. 2 Pet 1:5-8 “For this very reason, adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),
And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),
And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.
For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).”
Let’s do consider some of the more popular objections to Gods sovereign providence. 1.) “That would make us like robots.” 2.) “How could there be real love between us and God if we don’t have free choice?” 3.) “Why does God judge us for sinning if we are bound to by predestination?”
To the first question, “But that would make us like robots?,” I would simply ask, “what sane person has ever felt thus compelled to do anything”. The fact that we can think and feel and reason certainly distinguishes us from robots. In fact, God commands us to be unlike those who must be rigidly controlled such as the horse or the mule. Psalm 32:9 “Be not like the horse or the mule, which lack understanding, which must have their mouths held firm with bit and bridle, or else they will not come with you.” Being made in the image of God certainly precludes any idea of us being likened to robots.
To the second question, “How could there be real love between us and God if we don’t have free choice”, there is much that can be said. First of all before we get into love, we must acknowledge the author of love and the fountain from which love flows, God Himself. 1 John 4:8b “God is love”. He is how we know what love is. His love is infinite and indescribable, but He has shown us the way to love in 1 John 3:16 “We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” God’s love is real love. Real love led Jesus to the cross to bear the wrath of the Father in our place, so that we could have an eternal loving relationship with our creator. We know that love is coming to us from God, but to answer the question it must be said how we can truly love Him with a genuine love. To ask the question, “How could there be real love between us and God if we don’t have free choice”, in and of itself betrays an incomplete knowledge about the nature of man. Let’s consider some scriptures before we move into it.
Proverbs 19:3 “A man’s own folly ruins his life, yet his heart rages against the Lord.”
Ecclesiastes 9:3 “This evil is in all that is done under the sun: one fate comes to all. Also the hearts of men are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.”
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
wicked: who can know it?”
Matthew 15:19 “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders,
adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,
blasphemies:”
Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Understanding the nature of man by the word of God should leave us without a shred of doubt that apart from grace we are absolutely depraved and incapable of love for one another, let alone God. Certainly something like love exists in the unbelieving world, but it cannot be the Godlike love that the believer is capable of. I do acknowledge that unbelievers are capable of incredible acts of selfless dedication even to the point of death, but our observation of their actions cannot end with the person. Our observance of such feats should always lead us to the source of all charity. And if indeed it is love than it is not of man. Anyways, we are commanded in scripture to love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, and mind,(Deuteronomy 6:5) along with a whole host of other commands called “the law”, which “if a man does them he shall live by them.”(Ezekiel 20:11) But we do not do them, so we have no life in us through them. 2Co 3:6b “for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” What I am getting at, is that we cannot generate love within ourselves to begin with. It is the Holy Spirit infusing the love of God into our hearts that makes it possible for such love to be offered up to the Father or given to our neighbor. Does the fact that the love with which we love the Father, comes from the Father, make that love disingenuous? Not according to God. The love for God that the believer has, is evidenced by what he does. The works done in the Spirit are done out of love for God; these works prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10 “For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].” Does the preordination of the works done in love for God make that love disingenuous? Not according to God. It is our worship. Jesus said it best in John 4:23-24, “A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers. God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship {Him} in spirit and in truth (reality).” When we think that we must have freedom of will are we thinking as those who are full grown, or those who have received the gift of God as little children. We do love God with a genuine love because it is God’s love that we love God with. 1 John 4:7a “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God.”
Now to the third question, “Why does God judge us for sinning if we are bound to by predestination?” Essentially the same question was posed by Paul to Paul, assuming that if he were with the Roman church, this question would be asked. Paul speaks in the Spirit in Romans 9:19-20 “You will say to me, ‘Why then does He still find fault {and} blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist {and} withstand His will?’ But who are you, a mere man, to criticize {and} contradict {and} answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, ‘Why have you made me thus?’.” I must take a moment to clarify that this subject is certainly not for the new believer or one who is struggling; it is for those who can accept that their view of themselves should be recalibrated. In each of us there is a struggle against the flesh and it is not about any kind of Ego versus Id philosophy. There is in every believer a spirit born of God and kept by God’s power that desires to do His will. It is Christ in us, giving life to our spirit that enables us to war against the flesh and the powers and principalities of this age. It is not something we do on our own. We must seek diligently to continue to rate ourselves soberly as Paul says in Romans 12:3 “For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate {and} think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.” And elevate God to His rightful place in our hearts understanding His indescribable dominion and power. John the Baptist said it best in John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease. [He must grow more prominent; I must grow less so.”] These are hard words for the flesh to bear, but so often those things that are difficult for the flesh are those things that are true, honorable, right, pure, lovely, of good repute, excellent, and worthy of praise. (Philippians 4:8)
The doctrine of God’s providence is a wonderful doctrine when we embrace it. Whatever is true about God that we glean from His word, when embraced, leads to blessing upon blessing, as we say with John the Baptist “I must become less, He must become greater”. If I said I can fully comprehend this doctrine I would be incredibly naïve or a liar, but the Holy Spirit has revealed nothing in His word that He does not wish us to know fully; and the less we do know is to our detriment. We must beware however, what place we give to knowledge in our Christian lives as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:1 “Now about food offered to idols: of course we know that all of us possess knowledge [concerning these matters. Yet mere] knowledge causes people to be puffed up (to bear themselves loftily and be proud), but love (affection and goodwill and benevolence) edifies {and} builds up {and} encourages one to grow [to his full stature].” Knowledge does have its place in the Christian life however, and by the knowledge we can glean from scripture we can say with confidence that only God is free, and He offers His kind of freedom to no mere man. The kind of freedom that we have in Christ is sufficient for us; the freedom from bondage to sin and from the indictment of our own conscience. John 8:34-36 “Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, whoever commits {and} practices sin is the slave of sin. Now a slave does not remain in a household permanently (forever); the son [of the house] does remain forever. So if the Son liberates you [makes you free men], then you are really {and} unquestionably free.” We are no longer slaves of sin, but of righteousness.
Romans 6:18 “And having been set free from sin, you have become the servants of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in thought, purpose, and action).”
Romans 6:20 “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what benefit (return) did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? [None] for the end of those things is death. But now since you have been set free from sin and have become the slaves of God, you have your present reward in holiness and its end is eternal life. For the wages which sin pays is death, but the [bountiful] free gift of God is eternal life through (in union with) Jesus Christ our Lord.” Our actions do matter because there is an awesome and purposeful God behind everything. He is to be the only object of worship in His creation. We must live our lives in such a way that is pleasing to the Lord who redeemed us in His mercy. John 14:15 “If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands.” I rejoice in God’s absolute sovereignty, because I know that by God I am fully known; that I had nothing to do with my redemption and kept by the power of God I cannot relinquish it. Fatalism or determinism are not an option for those who have within them the Spirit of God because He has made us servants of the Most High God, and He has made us for a purpose; to do His will and to watch as He reveals Himself, in all manifestations past, present, and future. Ro 9:22-23 “What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” This seems like a fair place to leave off. I have not presented anything here that the flesh cannot deny, but there is truth here that a Christian would be blessed to embrace. I must conclude that both God and man (His creation) cannot be free. The idea of the necessity of free will originated with fallen man and will perish with him. Only God’s purpose will stand both now and forevermore.
All scripture references are from the NIV, NASB, Amplified Bible, and KJV.
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RE: free will - 1/15/2008 1:25:06 AM
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Kath
Posts: 16106
Joined: 2/28/2005
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Have you had a chance to read the Terms of Service? In it TOS 11 states
11. You will not post disruptive content, such as chain letters, all caps, unnecessarily long messages, or meaningless text.
I'm not sure if anyone really has the time to get through a message that runs 6,246 words, especially without paragraph breaks.
quote:
There are two questions that I would like to convey and even answer.
Do you want to have a discussion or are you posting an essay?
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RE: free will - 1/15/2008 9:41:01 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4972
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
...especially without paragraph breaks.
I've noticed that happens whenever I copy & paste from some sites. That may not be the case here; I'm just saying.
I also agree on length. My eyes glaze over and my mind wanders whenever I encounter a post that requires more than 2 screens to read.
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RE: free will - 1/15/2008 9:42:09 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4701
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Sounds like free will to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: free will - 1/18/2008 5:09:28 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4972
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Sounds like free will to me.
Thanks
RC
Great verses, RC.
Charles Spurgeon would have said a double "Amen!"
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RE: free will - 1/21/2008 4:08:49 PM
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Nothingman
Posts: 110
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
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There are several instances where God moves in the hearts of men, usually hardening their hearts in order to demonstrate His glory.
Sound like free will?
The answer to free will/determinism is probably best expresseed by Leo Tolstoy's epilogue in War and Peace. Life is not absolutely "free" and not absolutely caused preceding events and therefore "determined", but a variance between the two extremes.
Although I'm not sure how to reconcile the first mentioned examples of God's intervening in man's free will with the idea that true free will exists for us.
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RE: free will - 1/21/2008 4:17:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Man cannot place himself into heaven...
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
The state of man from birth prior to being raised from the dead is one of spiritual death and the entire collective (free)will of all of manking cannot raise even a single person from the state...
John
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
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RE: free will - 1/21/2008 5:46:48 PM
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Nothingman
Posts: 110
Joined: 4/3/2007
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I think you are confusing concepts. Free Will does not mean "we can save ourselves". I'm not sure why you would equate it to that. "Free Will" mearly is, "we are free in our decisions to choose". That is a rough definition and many learned people would undoubtly have issues of clarification with it but it is a rough outline for discussion's sake.
quote:
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
If not by free will, how then do you suppose man is able to accept God's Grace? No one says we save ourselves. We do say though that we choose to accept his Grace. And on the contray, we choose to not accept as well.
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RE: free will - 1/24/2008 10:24:03 AM
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mariadreamer
Posts: 354
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: va
Status: offline
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quote:
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
It has everything to do with salvation. Christ knocks on the door, He doesn't break in.
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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RE: free will - 1/26/2008 12:44:57 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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God is omniscient. God knows the future. Nothing we perceive is not already preformatted in God's mind. For this reason, cognizance is universal among creatures. The colors for example are met in everyone's mind the same. We see the color red through our senses as red because it is the way God has it for creatures to see in His mind.
Not only is salvation predestinated, everything is predestinated. Everything is already in God's mind. God knows what is going to happen and what you are thinking and what you are going to think before you think it. Everything is God and comes from God. God is in control. Everything is working according to God's plan.
The paradox is that we have free will. Even though God cannot help to know the future, to us our experience is free will. Even if we change our mind and flip a coin and change our mind again then ask a friend to decide for you, God knows the outcome and knew it from eternity past. To us our lives are free will. To God it is predestinated because He knows the future. 
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RE: free will - 1/27/2008 5:24:31 AM
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Nothingman
Posts: 110
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
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noitulover, I think you misunderstand the implications of God's omniscient. That attribute of God does not in any way mean predestination is true. Just because God knows that you will eat that hamburger does not mean that he made you do it. The two are unrelated, and it is important to keep them apart, however tempting and perhaps superficially apparent it seems that the two should corelate.
Maybe an example to will demonstrate this a little better. A hypoetheical situation. Let's say I know my wife very well. We've been married for 30 years and after awhile you get to know some things about her. I know her so well in fact that I can say with certainty what her favorite foods are. One day I am at a party with my wife and someone offers her some wine. After thirty years together I have come to know that my wife detests the taste of wife and through experience I know that she would never voluntarily drink any. At the moment our host offers my wife wine, and before she answers in anyway, I know what she will say. And she will say no of course. I knew what she was going to do but its obvious that my knowing what she was going to do had absolutely no effect on what she did. Just because I knew what she was going to do, doesn't mean I did it. It just means I know her very well. The same applies to God. He knows each and everyone of us absolutely, yes, but that does not mean he forces us.
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RE: free will - 1/27/2008 10:52:11 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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Predestination is Biblical.
Predestination is a fact.
Nothingman, are you implying that God is lying? Are you in denial? Do not ignore Scriptures in order to fit God into man's wisdom. Have I made myself clear?
It did not occur to me that anyone would deduce I was trying to prove that predestination is true. Predestination is self evident. For one, the Scriptures point it out. Two, God's foreknowledge and control over that foreknowledge is what Prophesy is all about. Hundreds of them thousands of years apart. Three, proving predestination exists is oxy moronic since that is what God gave us as one reason to prove He exists.
This thread is about free will. I was answering the question of how it is that we have free will when everything is predestinated in God's mind. Even our cognizance or perception of our material world is preformatted in God's mind. Color is a good example of this. Man sees the color red in the final recess of his awareness the same way among creatures because we are looking at what God has in His mind for us.
God has already created the future. He knows every detail. He fashioned it.
To imply that God merely guesses at what we might do is plain unwise, senseless, ill-advised, imprudent, thoughtless, injudicious, rash, irresponsible, reckless, heedless, foolish, fatuous, silly, inane, nonsensical, ludicrous, futile, ridiculous, laughable, absurd, asinine, daft, unintelligent, dull, brainless, obtuse, witless, abusive, offensive, rude, insolent, impertinent, wounding, slighting, ill-mannered, bad-mannered, indecorous, loutish, boorish, ignorant, disrespectful, discourteous, and means you are unaware, uninformed, ill-informed, unfamiliar, oblivious, unconscious, unknowing, unwitting, unenlightened, in the dark, inexperienced, and illiterate.
YOU ARE CALLING GOD STUPID, Nothingman. You are putting a limit on omniscience. Duh
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RE: free will - 1/27/2008 12:15:23 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Sounds like free will to me.
Thanks
RC
Great verses, RC.
Charles Spurgeon would have said a double "Amen!"
Have you guys read CHS ? Don't think so...
Was eternal life presented in Dt 30 ?
What is the setting in Rev 22 ?
Who is able to come ?
Who is the invitation given to ?
Please open up the "whosoever" Pandora's box...
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: free will - 1/27/2008 12:19:37 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2089
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
quote:
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
It has everything to do with salvation. Christ knocks on the door, He doesn't break in.
Does Jesus knock on every door ?
Can everyone even hear the knock ?
Is everyone able to hear equally ?
You can't choose if you are unable to-
You won't choose where you don't know a
choice exists. Think about it for a while.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: free will - 1/27/2008 12:19:55 PM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline
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The following was posted by dustymb: Dustin Butler
Are we free? I don’t mean freedom like the freedom of a U.S. citizen compared to a Cuban. Nor do I mean freedom of a free man compared to a slave. What I mean is, do we cut our own path in this life?
That would seem to be the general consensus. It feels good to think that we are in control or calling the shots. However just because it feels good to think we are in control does not make it so. If we are completely free then what is the role of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God in this universe? He didn’t just wind up the earth and let it go as the deists believe. Nor does He Just sit in heaven showering blessings on those who do all that He has commanded; or those who think they are pleasing Him. He is fully involved in His creation.
There are two questions that I would like to convey and even answer. 1.) What is the usefulness of seeking a stance on such a subject like God’s providence? It may seem trivial to some to delve into such a theological topic, or to others it may seem like staring into an abyss, but as Christians we should always be seeking to bring nearer to perfection our perception of the awesome God who redeemed us.
2.) “How in control is God of everything that happens in this world”? We certainly like to think, that when things are going good, we are the ones who brought it about. This comes naturally to man, just as it is natural to shake our fist at God when things go wrong.
Let’s begin with a word I just used; the word natural. To us today it might seem strange to say that a morally perfect man is natural; or that it would be natural for a lion to lie down with a lamb. That is because we have so closely associated the word natural with normal, such as when a natural climate cycle results in normal temperatures: or to be normal is natural and to be natural is normal. However, what we consider to be natural is really quite unnatural. The pre-fall state of creation is natural. What is natural is for God’s perfect creation to endure until everlasting without a trace of decay. What the first man Adam did was to become unnatural through sin. It is natural for a man to be fully alive physically and spiritually.
It says in Genesis 2:17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” We know that Adam did not die physically when he ate the fruit, after all he did live to be 930 years old. But God said “when you eat of it” The when should imply an immediate recompense of some sort and it does. Adam did die eventually but immediately he experienced spiritual death as a result of his disobedience, and became unnatural. Paul states in Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned”. And in Romans 5:19 “For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners”. It was after Adam’s sin that he became the natural man we know so well. He is the Genesis 6:5 man wherein it says “The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time” And just so we don’t mistakenly think that the human race has somehow been purged of evil in the flood, and that Noah’s righteousness has saved us, God says again in Genesis 8:21, “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.”
The spiritual death that we have received from posterity has also made us enemies of God as Paul states in Colossians 1:21 “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.” The gut reaction of just about anybody who is told that they were or are now an enemy of God, is that they believe to the contrary. One of the wonderful things about God for the believer is that God is not the God of gray areas; He is the God of black and white, friend or foe as Jesus states in Luke 11:23, “Anyone who is not with me is against me”. Before the point of trusting in Christ alone through faith alone we are enemies of God. When Jesus says in Matthew 5:9, “blessed are the peacemakers”, he is not talking about people breaking up fights and arguments. Jesus is talking about those who carry the gospel, to a world hostile towards God, so that those who are warring against God in their minds might have peace with their Creator. This is why Paul writes in Romans 5:10, “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life”. It is so important that we know the fullness of our redemption as much as is humanly possible, so that we might better know and love our redeemer.
Unfortunately in the modern evangelical church there is such a pragmatic bent in all of the teaching and preaching that spiritual maturity is no longer judged by godly biblical standards, but by human standards or mystical subjective experience. In the world of modern evangelical pragmatism spiritual immaturity is the norm rather than the exception. And if one grows in his convictions and is brave enough to exhort and awaken those who have lulled he is branded an extreme fundamentalist. In this way spiritual maturity is so oppressed so that people are more encouraged to waver between two opinions rather than settle on the truth that may offend man’s more fleshly sensibilities. In other words, to have convictions is merely to be “narrow minded”. The writer of Hebrews does not speak well of such groups in chapter 5:12-13, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant”.
I have above shed just a touch of light on the depravity of man, which is so vital for the Christian to grasp, in order to receive the Lord’s gospel as a little child. This understanding of man’s natural condition, even though I have only scratched the surface of what scripture teaches about his depravity, brings me back around to my first question, “are we free”. As far as the natural man is concerned he is free in one way. He is free only to be in bondage to sin. It is a paradox, but sinful man is only free to operate within the bounds that perdition permits. The unregenerate man is not free. Jesus says in John 8:34, “everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.” A slave does not have a free choice in anything, but must do what his master commands. The natural man goes beyond this however, in that he desires to do the will of his slave master. He is willfully in bondage. Jesus goes on to say in John 8:44, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father”. Man, being a slave to sin, is completely unable to free himself. We must conclude as the scripture so clearly states that he is not free. Are all of his ways chosen for him though? Let’s hold off on that question for a moment until we have observed God in relation to the subject.
God is indeed everything He has proclaimed Himself to be in the scriptures. He is infinitely merciful, loving, faithful, and good. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.(Ezekiel 33:11) Rather, His pleasure is that they turn from their wicked ways and live. We can also be so thankful that He does not change as we so often do. 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie, or change His mind; for He is not a man, that He should change His mind.” Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you O descendants of Jacob are not destroyed.” I sometimes like to rephrase that verse in my head. It goes like this, “I the Lord do not change. So you Dustin Butler are not destroyed”. That is refreshing. It is refreshing because I know some other things about God. That He is infinitely holy, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, just, self sustaining, transcendent, wise, and sovereign.
That sounds like One who is to be feared and beheld in awe! We must take seriously the business of growing in our knowledge of God. A.W. Tozer wrote in his book “The Knowledge of the Holy”, “No religion has ever been greater than its idea of god. Worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low thoughts of God.
Our God is a dangerous God. Isaiah would agree in Isaiah 6:5 wherein he exclaims after seeing the Lord on His throne, “Woe to me! I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty”. Here are a few other examples that should cause one to tremble.
...Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can kill both body and soul in hell.” ...Hebrews 12:29 “God is a consuming fire”
...2 Samuel 6:6-7 “When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.” ...Leviticus 10:1-2 “Aarons sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to His command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. ...Jeremiah 25:30-38 “Now prophesy all these words to them and say to them: “The Lord will roar from on high; He will thunder from His holy dwelling and roar mightily against His land. He will shout like those who tread the grapes, shout against all who live on the earth. The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth, for the Lord will bring charges against the nations; He will bring judgment against all mankind and put the wicked to the sword”, declares the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Look! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth.” At that time those slain by the Lord will be everywhere from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground. “Weep and wail, you shepherds; roll in the dust you leaders of the flock. For your time to be slaughtered has come; you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery. The shepherds will have nowhere to flee, the leaders of the flock no place to escape. Hear the cry of the shepherds, the wailing of the leaders of the flock, for the lord is destroying their pasture. The peaceful meadows will be laid waste because of the fierce anger of the Lord. Like a lion He will leave His lair, and there land will become desolate because of the sword of the oppressor and because of the Lord’s fierce anger.” ...Psalm 2:12 “Kiss the Son, lest He be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for His wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in Him.”
...I could go on if I thought I needed to, but I don’t. He is a dangerous God and Jesus did not come to abolish the law, or Him, for He is God. Many Christians do not study the Old Testament and many still have never read it. For them, all too often, there is a disconnect in their ability to connect the Son to the Father in their own minds. They shudder to think that it was the pre-incarnate Christ or “the Angel of the Lord” who put to death all of the firstborn in Egypt, who struck Uzzah for treating what is Holy as a common thing. It was He who struck down 185,000 in the Assyrian camp surrounding Jerusalem in a single night, but He did condescend to dwell among us in a far different manner than this, for He in His infinite mercy and wisdom “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in the appearance of a man He humbled Himself, and became obedient to death, even death on the cross.”(Phillipians 2:6-8) It does appear that our God has more than a wide range of options in His creation. It is quite clear that God has complete control over His creation.
That leads to the favorite question of every “free thinker”; “If God is completely controlling everything then where did evil come from?” “If it is as you say then evil would have to come from God.” Certainly we would have to begin by looking at several key scriptures to make quite clear that God did not create evil. God made everything good as it says in Genesis 1:31a “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.” There was nothing evil in any of what God had made. Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good”---. James 1:13b “For God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone;” We must realize the most fundamental difference between us and God. God is not a created being like we are. God is infinite and does not chan | | | |
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