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RE: free will - 2/8/2008 9:35:27 AM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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FreeGrace,
re: “God created man with the ability to choose from among options. “
But not the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true.
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RE: free will - 2/8/2008 2:37:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
FreeGrace,
re: “God created man with the ability to choose from among options. “
But not the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true.
rstrats,
I don't follow. When we choose something, it is a conscious activity, is it not? Please clarify. Thanks.
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RE: free will - 2/10/2008 9:15:20 PM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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FreeGrace,
re: “I don't follow. When we choose something, it is a conscious activity, is it not?”
Yes, when the “something” is a bagel or a new pair of shoes. But a person cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
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RE: free will - 2/10/2008 9:43:08 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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Rstrats: "A person cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things"
WOW. Can I ask you very nicely where you got that from? Could you explain that? So you are saying I can't control whether to believe this chair I'm sitting in will hold me up or not?
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RE: free will - 2/10/2008 10:06:19 PM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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evry1needsgod,
re: “WOW. Can I ask you very nicely where you got that from? Could you explain that?”
Sure. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since no one that I have asked has been able to do so either, I feel that I can make the statement.
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RE: free will - 2/10/2008 10:24:18 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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But how do ou know you can't or that others cant?
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 3:01:47 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
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I consciously choose my beliefs. Maybe you should have asked me.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 7:07:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
evry1needsgod,
re: “WOW. Can I ask you very nicely where you got that from? Could you explain that?”
Sure. Since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and since no one that I have asked has been able to do so either, I feel that I can make the statement.
How do you explain the fact that people change their beliefs? And I'm not talking of bagels or new shoes.
It appears your beliefs are all based on an "eyes closed policy". Is that correct?
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 8:52:11 AM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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evry1needsgod,
re: “But how do you know you can't or that others cant?”
I can only go by what I said in my post #55.
< Message edited by rstrats -- 2/11/2008 11:52:30 AM >
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 8:56:40 AM
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rstrats
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1love1God1way
re: “I consciously choose my beliefs.”
Perhaps you can help me then. As I said; I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you say that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 9:07:14 AM
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rstrats
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FreeGrace,
re: “How do you explain the fact that people change their beliefs?”
I can only venture a guess that when a new belief is obtained that it very likely may come about through some subconscious process taking place in the mind from being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation. But there is never any CONSCIOUS CHOOSING involved with the actual engendering of the belief itself. Or in the case of a religious belief, it may be placed in the mind of the individual by a supreme being.
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 7:31:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
FreeGrace,
re: “How do you explain the fact that people change their beliefs?”
I can only venture a guess that when a new belief is obtained that it very likely may come about through some subconscious process taking place in the mind from being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, and conversation. But there is never any CONSCIOUS CHOOSING involved with the actual engendering of the belief itself. Or in the case of a religious belief, it may be placed in the mind of the individual by a supreme being.
Sure, there is conscious choosing. Happens all the time. You can choose to think and live recklessly (driving) or think and live responsibly.
When a new belief is obtained, you make your choice based on your brain's activity (I call that thinking). All the issues are stacked up, and your brain picks the most attractive or logical position.
Now, if or when new data becomes available, your brain activity resumes and goes over all the data, new included, and may even...  change its mind!
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 7:51:12 PM
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rstrats
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FreeGrace,
re: “...when new data becomes available, your brain activity resumes and goes over all the data, new included, and may even... change its mind! “
That is very likely the case. But it is a subconscious process. There is no conscious CHOOSING of the belief itself.
However, if you think that you CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you to do the same thing that I asked 1love1God1way to do in my post #60.
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 8:18:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
FreeGrace,
re: “...when new data becomes available, your brain activity resumes and goes over all the data, new included, and may even... change its mind! “
That is very likely the case. But it is a subconscious process. There is no conscious CHOOSING of the belief itself.
However, if you think that you CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I would ask you to do the same thing that I asked 1love1God1way to do in my post #60.
The best way to demonstrate this is by example. Consider the phrase "I see it, but I don't believe it". The phrase denotes the fact of what was seen, and the fact that the one seeing it doesn't accept it as true or real.
So, even seeing reality doesn't necessarily mean one will accept it as real. But, that's a choice one makes. I believe it's conscious, not unconscious.
God created mankind with a rational intellect that can analyze and evaluate. All of that is conscious. Decisions are based on these things.
Do you really think that when someone changes their mind about something, religion or politics, it is an unconscious activity? No, such change of mind comes about from analyzing all the data and coming to new conclusions, and, thus, new beliefs.
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 8:28:08 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1734
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FG: Here we go again..........let me try again.
I am studying this mind/heart/soul thing thanks to you 
I am concluding (present tense ongoing action) that we need ALL
of our "powers" to believe in the sense of faith unto salvation.
Mind + heart + spirit are all necessary.
Only the mind is not enough: we will only have intellectual acknowledgment
but not true believing.
Only the heart is not enough: we will only have emotional, "feelings"-based knowledge.
The spirit? Well, the spirit allows true understanding, so the mind and heart can believe.
In Luke 24:45 Jesus "opened their minds to understand the Scripture" - they needed
something more to have complete understanding.
Overemphasizing the mind leads to "decisions" and "professions" but not true faith.
Overemphasizing the heart relies on feeling and emotions, which is fleeting faith.
So my conclusion is we cannot fully believe unless the Holy Spirit enables us.
I think it must be Mind + Heart + Spirit.
For now, anyway.
FG, I look forward to your comments.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 9:19:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
FG: Here we go again..........let me try again.
I am studying this mind/heart/soul thing thanks to you
Once again, you are welcome.
quote:
I am concluding (present tense ongoing action) that we need ALL
of our "powers" to believe in the sense of faith unto salvation.
Mind + heart + spirit are all necessary.
I agree, and also think that one cannot really separate their functions, if indeed they are separate entities.
quote:
In Luke 24:45 Jesus "opened their minds to understand the Scripture" - they needed something more to have complete understanding.
Interesting that you note Luke 24:45, which uses the Greek word "nous", which is translated "mind".
A little earlier in Luke 24, we find the Greek word "kardia" for "heart".
"And he said to them, O foolish men and slow fo heart to belive in all that the prophets have spoken!"
quote:
Overemphasizing the mind leads to "decisions" and "professions" but not true faith.
Overemphasizing the heart relies on feeling and emotions, which is fleeting faith.
Again, if both are involved in believing, how would one know how to avoid overemphasizing either one, if that's possible? I believe that heart/mind/soul are synonyms, since the lexicons show their meanings overlap. If each were a separate entity, and any one of these entities could be overemphasized, to the underemphasis of any of the others, why isn't the Bible crystal clear on this, with warnings of such possibilities? That's why I don't think they are separate entities, but rather, synonyms. We believe from our heart/soul/mind, which, collectively, is our rational intellect.
quote:
So my conclusion is we cannot fully believe unless the Holy Spirit enables us.
Do you think the Holy Spirit witholds enablement to some? If so, why?
quote:
I think it must be Mind + Heart + Spirit.
For now, anyway.
FG, I look forward to your comments.
The thing I've enjoyed so much on these threads is the challenge to ensure my pov doesn't contradict any Scripture. While many of us have differing views, I think the ability to show logical consistency with one's pov is paramount. Thanks for the challenge. 
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RE: free will - 2/11/2008 9:29:31 PM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
Joined: 5/27/2005
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FreeGrace,
re: “The best way to demonstrate this is by example.”
The best way to demonstrate your ability is to actually demonstrate it. Consciously CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without doubt - that leprechauns exist. Can you do that?
re: “Do you really think that when someone changes their mind about something, religion or politics, it is an unconscious activity? “
Yes, where belief is involved.
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 12:56:42 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
1love1God1way
re: “I consciously choose my beliefs.”
Perhaps you can help me then. As I said; I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you say that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?
I could research leprechauns. I could hear testimonies of eye-witness accounts. I could read passages and stories about them. I could develop evidence to the point where my doubts succeed and I say, "ok, now I believe in them."
Another doubter could look at the same pieces of evidence and decide "it's just not enough for me. I still don't believe."
Please, explain to me how that is not consciously deciding?
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 6:58:48 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
FreeGrace,
re: “The best way to demonstrate this is by example.”
The best way to demonstrate your ability is to actually demonstrate it. Consciously CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without doubt - that leprechauns exist. Can you do that?
Now, really, rstrats, why do you ask? Why even mention the absurd? I won't do that because it doesn't meet my CONSCIOUS criteria of reasonableness or rationality. I make my choices and decisions based on the God-given skills of intellectual function that we have all been given, to one degree or another.
Do you really believe people based their decision to vote for a candidate on some unconscious level?
Well, maybe you do...
quote:
quote:
re: “Do you really think that when someone changes their mind about something, religion or politics, it is an unconscious activity? “
Yes, where belief is involved.
Well, maybe you do...
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 11:20:05 AM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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FreeGrace,
re: “Now, really, rstrats, why do you ask?”
I gave my reason in post #60.
re: “Why even mention the absurd? “
It’s only absurd if beliefs cannot be consciously CHOSEN.
re: “ I won't do that...”
You won’t, or is it that you can’t?
re: “Do you really believe people based their decision to vote for a candidate on some unconscious level?”
Probably not. Their decision to vote for a particular candidate very likely was influenced by a belief that they had about the candidate. But the belief itself was engendered through some subconscious process having taken place in their brain.
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 11:33:07 AM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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1love1God1way,
re: “I could research leprechauns. I could hear testimonies of eye-witness accounts. I could read passages and stories about them. I could develop evidence to the point where my doubts succeed [?] and I say, ‘ok, now I believe in them.’ Another doubter could look at the same pieces of evidence and decide ‘it's just not enough for me. I still don't believe.’ Please, explain to me how that is not consciously deciding?”
First of all, if beliefs can simply be consciously CHOSEN then evidence is not necessary -- prudent in certain cases, but not necessary.
Nevertheless, in your first example, you suddenly realized that you had a new belief. I don’t think that you were able to say; “OK, I’ve done research and while I still believe - am convinced - that leprechauns don’t exist, I am going to believe that they do, and - poof - I now believe in them.
In your second example, your doubter would only be able to legitimately say; “I’ve looked at the same research that you did and it apparently was not sufficient because I still have the belief that leprechauns don’t exist.”
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 7:39:29 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2003
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
Nevertheless, in your first example, you suddenly realized that you had a new belief. I don’t think that you were able to say; “OK, I’ve done research and while I still believe - am convinced - that leprechauns don’t exist, I am going to believe that they do, and - poof - I now believe in them.
There is no "poof" moment. It is a decision that is made.
How about a real scenario? I use to be an Open Theist. I denied God's allknowing powers.
But, I decided to open up Scripture and take a look at my stance. The more I read, the more unsure I felt. Finally, I got to a point where I said to myself "You know...I think I got this wrong."
Right there was the moment of conscious decision that I would no longer believe in Open Theism doctrine, and chose to believe in what the Bible had to say. There was nothing magical or mysterious about it. I am pretty sure I may even have aloud said to myself that I would no longer accept my old beliefs.
quote:
In your second example, your doubter would only be able to legitimately say; “I’ve looked at the same research that you did and it apparently was not sufficient because I still have the belief that leprechauns don’t exist.”
Or, it can be..."I choose to not believe still." Choosing to not believe is still choosing your beliefs.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 8:24:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: rstrats
Nevertheless, in your first example, you suddenly realized that you had a new belief. I don’t think that you were able to say; “OK, I’ve done research and while I still believe - am convinced - that leprechauns don’t exist, I am going to believe that they do, and - poof - I now believe in them.
There is no "poof" moment. It is a decision that is made.
How about a real scenario? I use to be an Open Theist. I denied God's allknowing powers.
But, I decided to open up Scripture and take a look at my stance. The more I read, the more unsure I felt. Finally, I got to a point where I said to myself "You know...I think I got this wrong."
Right there was the moment of conscious decision that I would no longer believe in Open Theism doctrine, and chose to believe in what the Bible had to say. There was nothing magical or mysterious about it. I am pretty sure I may even have aloud said to myself that I would no longer accept my old beliefs.
quote:
In your second example, your doubter would only be able to legitimately say; “I’ve looked at the same research that you did and it apparently was not sufficient because I still have the belief that leprechauns don’t exist.”
Or, it can be..."I choose to not believe still." Choosing to not believe is still choosing your beliefs.
Well stated, 1Love1God1Way! 
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 9:05:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
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quote:
Again, if both are involved in believing, how would one know
how to avoid overemphasizing either one, if that's possible? I believe
that heart/mind/soul are synonyms, since the lexicons show their
meanings overlap. If each were a separate entity, and any one of
these entities could be overemphasized, to the underemphasis of
any of the others, why isn't the Bible crystal clear on this, with warnings
of such possibilities? That's why I don't think they are separate entities,
but rather, synonyms. We believe from our heart/soul/mind, which,
collectively, is our rational intellect.
I just don't think they are, FG. I think there are subtle differences
and Scripture uses the terms in distinctly different ways.
But Scripture commands "Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, strength and soul.
I believe this Scripture implies they are distinct and different, albeit they work together and one
influences the other, else why would they be listed? I think it is to make the command complete.
"Knowing" in the mind can be a pure intellectual knowledge, for example,
I know that 1 + 1 = 2. It takes no heart or spiritual knowledge to
understand.
It can also be a "heart know", for example "I know I love my wife".
And there is the Spirit which is the true source of our knowledge.
The unspiritual man cannot understand things of the spirit
1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come
from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Clearly, here we see that the mind is closed to spiritual knowledge, and the
mind must be opened in order to understand as in Luke 24 cited above.
1 Cor and other places show Paul tried reasoning and appealing to the
intellect part of the mind, but it failed. Only when the mind is opened
to the truth can the mind and heart understand.
Dont' get me wrong, I am not supporting Total Depravity, I think one needs
to be saved to be saved, but I do think God will enable the one who has
a truly repentant heart.
Which reminds me, I think salvation begins with repentance, don't you?
(Matt 21:32; Mark 1:15).
The mind perceives what the heart believes,
and from the Spirit both are made able.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 9:11:39 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1734
Status: online
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FREEGRACE:
I would be interested in your POV on predestination.
I have concluded that the foreknowledge spoken of in Rom 8
is the foreknowledge of who will believe, the classic Arminian position.
I conclude this from reading 1 Peter 1:2 also:
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
I wonder, "chosen according to the foreknowledge of what?"....
...Who will believe?
...Or who God has chosen (which doesn't make sense to me).
Does the Bible say anywhere the chosen are ones predestined to believe?
Or does the Bible say those who believe are predestined to be justified,
sanctified, and glorified?
I know we can read Scripture with our presuppositions and doctrinal bias, but
I have studied the Calvinist position and just simply cannot see selective redemption.
Thanks.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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