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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 9:17:57 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1751
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quote:
RWE: So my conclusion is we cannot fully believe unless the Holy Spirit enables us.
FREEGRACE: Do you think the Holy Spirit witholds enablement to some? If so, why?
No, but I think the Holy Spirit is needed for us to have knowledge of spiritual things.
I don't think there is selective enabling, I think God grants the spirit to
those whose hearts are not hardened and respond to his draw.
Like I have tried to tell the C-people:
God draws, but man must respond.
Once man responds, God enables him with the Spirit.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: free will - 2/12/2008 9:21:02 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1751
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quote:
FREEGRACE: Interesting that you note Luke 24:45, which uses the Greek word "nous", which is translated "mind".
A little earlier in Luke 24, we find the Greek word "kardia" for "heart".
"And he said to them, O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"
You agree the conclusion is it takes more than the mind alone to believe?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: free will - 2/13/2008 9:08:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
FREEGRACE:
I would be interested in your POV on predestination.
I have concluded that the foreknowledge spoken of in Rom 8
is the foreknowledge of who will believe, the classic Arminian position.
I agree. I prefer to call it the "free will" position. 
quote:
I conclude this from reading 1 Peter 1:2 also:
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
I wonder, "chosen according to the foreknowledge of what?"....
...Who will believe?
...Or who God has chosen (which doesn't make sense to me).
Great question, rwe! That is one of my major challenges for the reformed camp. Since their position on unconditional election really means that God chose who will believe, why isn't that clear from Scripture? The reality is that anyone in the world will be saved if they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
quote:
Does the Bible say anywhere the chosen are ones predestined to believe?
If there is, not even the reformed camp is aware of it, or they would have gladly shoved it down my throat by now. 
quote:
Or does the Bible say those who believe are predestined to be justified, sanctified, and glorified?
Bingo!
quote:
I know we can read Scripture with our presuppositions and doctrinal bias, but I have studied the Calvinist position and just simply cannot see selective redemption.
Thanks.
Me neither, rwe. It simply isn't there. If it were, one of them would have been able to show me by now.
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RE: free will - 2/13/2008 9:10:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
RWE: So my conclusion is we cannot fully believe unless the Holy Spirit enables us.
FREEGRACE: Do you think the Holy Spirit witholds enablement to some? If so, why?
No, but I think the Holy Spirit is needed for us to have knowledge of spiritual things.
I don't think there is selective enabling, I think God grants the spirit to
those whose hearts are not hardened and respond to his draw.
Like I have tried to tell the C-people:
God draws, but man must respond.
Once man responds, God enables him with the Spirit.
I fully agree with this, rwe.
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RE: free will - 2/13/2008 9:12:48 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
FREEGRACE: Interesting that you note Luke 24:45, which uses the Greek word "nous", which is translated "mind".
A little earlier in Luke 24, we find the Greek word "kardia" for "heart".
"And he said to them, O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"
You agree the conclusion is it takes more than the mind alone to believe?
I still think the 'heart' and 'mind' are the same. At least, I don't think anyone is able to distinguish between them. By that, I mean, is anyone able to consciously know when their 'heart' and 'mind' are working? Can anyone tell the difference?
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RE: free will - 2/14/2008 12:07:35 AM
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Tekel
Posts: 80
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quote:
I still think the 'heart' and 'mind' are the same. At least, I don't think anyone is able to distinguish between them. By that, I mean, is anyone able to consciously know when their 'heart' and 'mind' are working? Can anyone tell the difference?
I have been thinking on the triune nature of man lately. The flesh/body is obvious. The "became a living soul" mind/brain part seems discreet. The dead spirit part that needs quickened would appear to be the third.
I associate the mind with the living soul pretty comfortably. I am torn as to the placement of the heart, sometimes I think it is associated with the spirit.
Back to the original point, I was pulled into and really struggled with the "high" sovereign view for a time, but finally let God out of the temporal box where mans allowed and commanded choice is no threat to God's foreknowledge or predestination of wonderful things for those who chose life.
quote:
God works from the future to form the past.
False. God works from Eternity, the entirety of time beginning to end was completely known before it was created. The temporal box can not hold God.
To tie this together, it is the living soul that discerns God, and seeks unto grace, faith, repentance and salvation, the second birth, the dead spirit revived, the indwelling Holy Spirit. "He touched me and made me whole".
This circumvents the "total depravity inability to do anything because we are (spiritually) dead" argument too. We are a living soul, able to see the evidence of God in creation with our minds, able to choose to seek truth or accept a lie. This is the foundation of why we have no excuse before God. We choose our way to our fate. Whosoever will.
< Message edited by Tekel -- 2/14/2008 12:17:14 AM >
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RE: free will - 2/14/2008 9:43:24 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tekel
quote:
I still think the 'heart' and 'mind' are the same. At least, I don't think anyone is able to distinguish between them. By that, I mean, is anyone able to consciously know when their 'heart' and 'mind' are working? Can anyone tell the difference?
I have been thinking on the triune nature of man lately. The flesh/body is obvious. The "became a living soul" mind/brain part seems discreet. The dead spirit part that needs quickened would appear to be the third.
I associate the mind with the living soul pretty comfortably. I am torn as to the placement of the heart, sometimes I think it is associated with the spirit.
Yet, the Bible does telll us that God "gives a new heart", suggestive that we already have one. Also, Rom 10:10 is clear: man believes from the heart. And until man believes, he isn't saved. So unsaved man already does have a heart. I think heart and mind are essentially synonymous.
quote:
Back to the original point, I was pulled into and really struggled with the "high" sovereign view for a time, but finally let God out of the temporal box where mans allowed and commanded choice is no threat to God's foreknowledge or predestination of wonderful things for those who chose life.
If I may say so, I think your current view of God's sovereignty is "high" compared to what you used to believe. It's that view that isn't very "high", imho. I fully agree with your pov here.
quote:
quote:
God works from the future to form the past.
False. God works from Eternity, the entirety of time beginning to end was completely known before it was created. The temporal box can not hold God.
Quite right. He certainly doesn't need the future to form anything.
quote:
To tie this together, it is the living soul that discerns God, and seeks unto grace, faith, repentance and salvation, the second birth, the dead spirit revived, the indwelling Holy Spirit. "He touched me and made me whole".
This circumvents the "total depravity inability to do anything because we are (spiritually) dead" argument too. We are a living soul, able to see the evidence of God in creation with our minds, able to choose to seek truth or accept a lie. This is the foundation of why we have no excuse before God. We choose our way to our fate. Whosoever will.
Amen. Thanks for posting, Tekel.
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RE: free will - 2/16/2008 10:15:10 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 326
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quote:
quote:
Does the Bible say anywhere the chosen are ones predestined to believe?
If there is, not even the reformed camp is aware of it, or they would have gladly shoved it down my throat by now
(John 6:35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jesus equates coming and believing. He goes on to say.
(John 6:36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Verse thiry seven could be rewritten to say All that the Father giveth me shall believe on me and him that believeth on me I will in no wise cast out.
The foundation of our coming or of our believing is being given of the Father to the Son or in other words being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
This is the will of the Father. That all that he gives Jesus will not be lost. That all that are given to Jesus believe or come to Him. And all that believe or come to him receive eternal life and be raised up at the last day.
Faith is the fruit of election and not election the fruit of faith. They were chosen to be given. They were chosen to believe.
(Acts 13:48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Many Arminians try to rewrite this verse to say that as many as believed were appointed to eternal life. But the word of God stands.
< Message edited by tdd1975 -- 2/16/2008 10:26:26 PM >
_____________________________
(John 8:11) Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
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RE: free will - 2/17/2008 1:21:46 AM
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futuredocter37
Posts: 134
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This where the debate about Calvinism are. Well anyway the last debate I think was about prevenient grace, John Wesley says prevenent grace is a grace given to everyone allowing them to repent, if they wish too.
I am just going to say I do believe repentence is a choice, however preveneint grace is not what John Wesley says it is. I hope we can just do a straight forward reading of the Bible, and let God's word speak for itself, in other words predestination means predestenation, not foreknowledge. Just like a day is day.
God bless
_____________________________
KEN
Have you perfectly obeyed the ten commandments?? If God gave you justice will you go to heaven or hell???
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RE: free will - 2/17/2008 10:55:22 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11589
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From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
quote:
This where the debate about Calvinism are.
No, the debate on Calvinism is HERE
Note that it is a one-stop thread, and is the *only* thread in which to debate Calvinism. If this thread turns into a Calvinism debate, it will be closed.
Please take *all* debate about Calvinism to the one-stop thread.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: free will - 4/8/2008 3:03:56 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
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quote:
Original: rstrats
Perhaps you can help me then. As I said; I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you say that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
If we cannot CHOOSE from among a variety of beliefs, then why are you bothering to formulate your position at all? Surely you don't think that you can convince us to CHOOSE to believe you?
Also, you have stacked the deck in favor of some form of determinism. This is clear from your imperative phrase about choice: "explain how you do it".
Answer: if human choice is not bound by a causal chain or sequence (i.e. by either the laws of physics and chemistry or the will of God), then your statement has fallen into a category mistake; like asking what the color blue tastes like.
Therefore, your position has tacitly accepted "causality" as the fundamental priniciple by which all metaphysical and theological matters must conform to; so that unless human choice fits into this idea of "causality", you cannot accept human choice as "rational".
Do you believe that your own statements are not really your own? Was it really God who selected the linguistic and semantic phrasings of your own posts here?
On one level, you operate as though humans were in fact free; evidenced by you own dialectical engagement on this thread. But on the level of your own theorizing, you don't believe that there are really any people at all!! Instead, your theory treats people like pipes/conduits of some "other" will.
So you don't believe people possess "freewill"; you believe that people are merely possessed. Very odd.
Only inanimate "things" operate under such causal factors, like when a rock tumbles down a hill. Humans don't operate like inanimate objects at all. And as to animals, I don't have a problem with believing that they are imbibed with a measure of "freewill"; but they operate on pure impulsivity without "reason". We operate with both.
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RE: free will - 4/8/2008 7:32:21 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1188
Joined: 7/31/2007
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After thinking about this for quite some time, it occurred to me that it might have to do with the nature of God as it pertains to the nature of time.
Space and time are inextricably linked, and by extension, the creation of the universe (space) also resulted in the creation of this timeline. This is a little odd to we three-dimensional beings who can only move through time in a single direction, but for one who is outside (and in control of) time, there is no requirement for choices to be viewed from any specific perspective. So, assuming God, being creator of both the universe and time itself, is outside the timeline (but capable of acting on it, just as a painter is outside of a painting but capable of acting on it), He is capable of viewing our choices when they have not, from our perspective, been made yet, because He merely needs to look a little farther down the timeline and see the choice being made.
So, God has foreknowledge of our choices because He will see/is seeing/has seen them. The choice still must be made/be being made/have been made, but God can observe from a perspective at which the choice has been made, and is therefore known. Let me give a little less abstract example, since this gets a little confusing due in part to a complete lack of sufficient verb tenses for atemporal subject matter.
Say you and I go down to Baskin Robbins. You don't know that I have a miniature time machine in my pocket, and as we're standing in line, I excuse myself and head for the bathroom. Once in the bathroom, I use my miniature time machine to go forward in time 10 minutes. I peek out of the bathroom door and watch you ordering a scoop of strawberry cheesecake swirl in a waffle cone. I use my time machine to go back in time 10 minutes, leave the bathroom, stand with you in line for 10 minutes, and observe you ordering the waffle cone with a scoop of strawberry cheesecake swirl again. Did my time-machine foreknowledge that you would order a scoop of strawberry cheesecake swirl in a waffle cone at all affect the choice you made? No. It was still your choice.
So, God foreknows we will choose to trust in Jesus. Due to His atemporal nature, He knows that we will make that choice because he can view the timeline at the point where the choice is being made or has been made. That doesn't affect our ability to choose. He can, of course, woo us, just as we can woo the object of our affection, but ultimately the decision of whether or not to accept is up to us.
I think the reason for this is love. God values love above all things, and if there is no choice, there is no love. Being a software engineer, I can write a program that will print "I LOVE YOU" a thousand times a second in just a few minutes, but my computer's thousands of cries of devotion mean nothing next to my husband or my daughter telling me even a single time that they love me. Why? Because my husband and my daughter have a choice. Without a choice, there cannot truly be love. For God's creation to tell Him we love Him is worth the pain and suffering that we sometimes cause, just as my husband's love is worth the effort and difficulties and pain that marriage can cause.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: free will - 4/8/2008 10:30:24 PM
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rstrats
Posts: 31
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cognitivemagic,
re: “If we cannot CHOOSE from among a variety of beliefs, then why are you bothering to formulate your position at all?”
My position is already established. It is based on the fact that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I hold, and on the fact that no one else that I have asked has been able to demonstrate such an ability. However, folks continue to say or imply that the DO have the ability. If they truly do, I would really like to know how they do it. Hence my request.
re: “Surely you don't think that you can convince us to CHOOSE to believe you?”
Of course not. I don’t think that it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Nevertheless, if I’m wrong and you really can consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true, I would ask you the same thing that I asked of 1love1God1way in post #60.
re: “Do you believe that your own statements are not really your own? “
I believe that they are my own.
re: “On one level, you operate as though humans were in fact free; evidenced by you own dialectical engagement on this thread. “
I did indeed purposely and with full control - as far as I know - consciously CHOOSE to enter into discussion under this topic.
re: “But on the level of your own theorizing, you don't believe that there are really any people at all!! Instead, your theory treats people like pipes/conduits of some ‘other’ will.”
Where did I say that?
re: “So you don't believe people possess ‘freewill’”
No, not if you are talking about people having the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
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RE: free will - 4/8/2008 11:36:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1772
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From: Kansas
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Did Saul have an option on the road to Damascus or was he just chosen?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: free will - 4/9/2008 2:28:07 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1188
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I think he did have a choice, yes. Even in the face of obvious divine intervention, there's still the option to say "no". Take Moses, for instance. God has just spoken to him out of a burning bush, yet Moses still balks and insists he can't possibly go speak for God himself, isn't his brother Aaron a better orator?
Was Saul chosen? Yes.
Did he have the ability to reject that choice? I believe so.
Aren't we fortunate that he accepted it. (I'm reading Paul's letters at the moment, they're excellent).
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: free will - 4/9/2008 10:50:19 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Many biblical people resisted the will of God but at least those we are aware of always came around, just like Jonah but sometimes it takes extreme motivation as Saul experienced.
Bob.
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 1:48:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
I think you are confusing concepts. Free Will does not mean "we can save ourselves". I'm not sure why you would equate it to that. "Free Will" mearly is, "we are free in our decisions to choose". That is a rough definition and many learned people would undoubtly have issues of clarification with it but it is a rough outline for discussion's sake.
The concept of free will places man's ability to choose on the same level as anything God does... It's simple math...
Man does + God does = Salvation...
No salvation without man doing or God in your view... That places the same importance on both... Equal...
quote:
quote:
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
If not by free will, how then do you suppose man is able to accept God's Grace? No one says we save ourselves. We do say though that we choose to accept his Grace. And on the contray, we choose to not accept as well.
Which is it? If you don't do something you are not saved, yet you doing nothing to save yourself? You don't see the paradox you created?
Salvation is by God 100%.... For heaven's sake we don't even know what we should pray, yet we have the facilities to chose God? The bible says that nautural man cannot understand things of the Spirit... I have to believe that the choice of God is something of the Spirit, not something less than... To those not of the Spirit the things of the Spirit are foolishness...
John
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 1:52:25 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariadreamer
quote:
Free will amounts to what? Nothing... It has ZERO to do with salvation...
It has everything to do with salvation. Christ knocks on the door, He doesn't break in.
God breaks in, takes life, does whatever He so chooses... Raised Pharoah to power to show His power to the whole world... Raised an evil ruler to make a point and even when that evil wanted to let His people go God changed his heart so he wouldn't and later punished him for doing so... God does what He please and isn't bound by the will of a man or the collective will of man, but do as He please according to His will and not can stay His hand. Salvation is God's doing start to finish...
John
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 2:06:19 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I think he did have a choice, yes. Even in the face of obvious divine intervention, there's still the option to say "no". Take Moses, for instance. God has just spoken to him out of a burning bush, yet Moses still balks and insists he can't possibly go speak for God himself, isn't his brother Aaron a better orator?
The inherent failure of the flesh doesn't equate to Moses having an option... Moses was leading whom? God's "chosen" people... Just like God ordained Pharoah, He ordained Moses... One for honor, the other not...
quote:
Was Saul chosen? Yes.
Did he have the ability to reject that choice? I believe so.
Aren't we fortunate that he accepted it. (I'm reading Paul's letters at the moment, they're excellent).
God doesn't ordain the possiblity of something... History wasn't by chance, and the future isn't by chance, it's what God ordained. Paul wasn't one of many who could fit the mold, he was formed, created for the express purpose to do what he did.... Paul was knocked from his ride, blinded and directly addressed by God... Choice? No...
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Consider John the Baptist filled with the Spirit while in the womb... Choice?
The 12.... Christ said He ordained them... That He chose them, they didn't choose Him... Ordained means He worked it out that what happened was because He made it so and there is not clause in there that states that man's will was a factor.
Even Satan has no choice... Job... What could Satan do to Job? Only what God allowed...
Bottom line.... It's all about God...
John
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 9:17:02 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
I think you are confusing concepts. Free Will does not mean "we can save ourselves". I'm not sure why you would equate it to that. "Free Will" mearly is, "we are free in our decisions to choose". That is a rough definition and many learned people would undoubtly have issues of clarification with it but it is a rough outline for discussion's sake.
The concept of free will places man's ability to choose on the same level as anything God does... It's simple math...
Man does + God does = Salvation...
No salvation without man doing or God in your view... That places the same importance on both... Equal...
It most definitely does NOT! There is no merit in believing. So, you cannot claim that believing the gospel equals "man doing". The bible contradicts you.
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 10:09:02 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
I think you are confusing concepts. Free Will does not mean "we can save ourselves". I'm not sure why you would equate it to that. "Free Will" mearly is, "we are free in our decisions to choose". That is a rough definition and many learned people would undoubtly have issues of clarification with it but it is a rough outline for discussion's sake.
The concept of free will places man's ability to choose on the same level as anything God does... It's simple math...
Man does + God does = Salvation...
No salvation without man doing or God in your view... That places the same importance on both... Equal...
It most definitely does NOT! There is no merit in believing. So, you cannot claim that believing the gospel equals "man doing". The bible contradicts you.
For those who hold the free will doctrine there is merit in believing and it must be done by man in order for salvation to take place... Their posts contradict your claim... They view places man on the same level has God.
I know the bible doesn't offer man any merit... Salvation is from God and mercy is unmerited favor... People only believe because God changed them, they don't believe to be changed, they are changed in order to believe...
John
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 8:03:48 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6744
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
I think you are confusing concepts. Free Will does not mean "we can save ourselves". I'm not sure why you would equate it to that. "Free Will" mearly is, "we are free in our decisions to choose". That is a rough definition and many learned people would undoubtly have issues of clarification with it but it is a rough outline for discussion's sake.
The concept of free will places man's ability to choose on the same level as anything God does... It's simple math...
Man does + God does = Salvation...
No salvation without man doing or God in your view... That places the same importance on both... Equal...
It most definitely does NOT! There is no merit in believing. So, you cannot claim that believing the gospel equals "man doing". The bible contradicts you.
For those who hold the free will doctrine there is merit in believing and it must be done by man in order for salvation to take place... Their posts contradict your claim... They view places man on the same level has God.
Could you tell me who "they" are? I've not seen any posts like that. And I hold to free will doctrine and I most assuredly claim and believe that one's faith in Christ is not meritorious. Rom 4:4,5 says so.
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I know the bible doesn't offer man any merit... Salvation is from God and mercy is unmerited favor... People only believe because God changed them, they don't believe to be changed, they are changed in order to believe...
There is no support for God choosing who will believe, but lots of support for God choosing to give eternal life to those who believe.
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RE: free will - 4/17/2008 11:06:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3836
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Could you tell me who "they" are? I've not seen any posts like that.
Anyone who claims that free will is the means to salvation...
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There is no support for God choosing who will believe, but lots of support for God choosing to give eternal life to those who beli | | | |
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