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144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 1:05:20 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
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The 144,000 are not Jews, the first verse EXPOSES THIS, "his name and his fathers name." Clearly TWO,
they are the lineage of the twelve tribes, ancestors,
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 1:08:56 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Greeting prophetlady! It is written that they are from these tribes of Israel. Why not acknowledge this and understand that God has something special planned for Israel, yet?
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
The 144,000 are not Jews, the first verse EXPOSES THIS, "his name and his fathers name." Clearly TWO,
they are the lineage of the twelve tribes, ancestors,
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 1:43:23 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
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I do acknowledge the fact that I am a part of the tribes of ISRAEL yes, like scriptures say, God told Abraham we would be.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:01:56 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Therefore, why would you say 'not jews' when it is written: A person is not a Jew if only outwardly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
I do acknowledge the fact that I am a part of the tribes of ISRAEL yes, like scriptures say, God told Abraham we would be.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/15/2008 2:14:51 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:02:32 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 371
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
It is written that they are from these tribes of Israel.
Unfortunately, a clear interpretation that the 144,000 are Jewish is confused by John. The list of the twelve tribes is unlike any of the other listings for the tribes of Israel (either as a nation or as descendants of the patriarch) in the OT or NT. OT references range from 10 to 13 "tribes" as well.
As Paul expounds, there is a physical Israel (which can be termed a people, a land, and a person) and the spiritual Israel to which we are heirs!
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Why not acknowledge this and understand that God has something special planned for Israel, yet?
Understanding who the 144,000 are is something we should strive to do.
As defined in the Bible, the 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the Harvest. This means they are of a like kind to the Harvest. As we look forward to the Harvest of the Church, we must differentiate between the physical Israel in its various forms and the spiritual Israel whom we, as "offspring of Israel" are.
I owe prophetlady a debt of thanks; I had glossed over the dual nature of Father/Son in the sealing of the 144,000. This should dispel any notion that these are strictly Jews. Furthermore, we are told these Firstfruits of the Harvest go with Jesus wherever He goes!
This latter fact of prophecy shows two important elements we have to include in our eschatology:
- 1. The 144,000 are not missionaries who go out and convert more because they stay with the Lamb who is Christ Jesus.
- 2. Jesus is mobile after His arrival, going wherever He must, needs to, or wants. I would include mobility between Heaven and Earth in Jesus' works after His paraousia just as Jesus demonstrated He was capable of traversing between these two dimensions after His Resurrection before His Ascension.
Now I would say that God has something special planned for Israel; indeed, that is the reason for the Millennium in my opinion.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 1/15/2008 2:09:40 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:15:32 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Greetings! We see that the tribe of Joseph replaces one of his sons tribes, the tribe of Ephraim who did not stand in the faith in accordance with the Word spoken by Isaiah and the tribe of Levi replaces Dan which Jacob prophesied concerning that He looks for the Lords deliverance and Jeremiah and The Prophets prophesy about how there was a certain hill established for worship and also in the days of Jesus and the woman at the well, this was an issue to Samaritans.
We remember that one of the Judges leaders Prophets of old was Samson, who was a danite.
There were 12 original tribes of Israel, with the tribe of Joseph represented by Manasseh and Ephraim whom Israel blessed as His own and reckoned them as His sons making 13 tribes, but the tribe of Levi, who were given the covenant of priesthood rather than land for God was their provision and inheritance.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Thus, we see that each tribe was blessed by Israel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
It is written that they are from these tribes of Israel.
Unfortunately, a clear interpretation that the 144,000 are Jewish is confused by John. The list of the twelve tribes is unlike any of the other listings for the tribes of Israel (either as a nation or as descendants of the patriarch) in the OT or NT. OT references range from 10 to 13 "tribes" as well.
As Paul expounds, there is a physical Israel (which can be termed a people, a land, and a person) and the spiritual Israel to which we are heirs!
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Why not acknowledge this and understand that God has something special planned for Israel, yet?
Understanding who the 144,000 are is something we should strive to do.
As defined in the Bible, the 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the Harvest. This means they are of a like kind to the Harvest. As we look forward to the Harvest of the Church, we must differentiate between the physical Israel in its various forms and the spiritual Israel whom we, as "offspring of Israel" are.
I owe prophetlady a debt of thanks; I had glossed over the dual nature of Father/Son in the sealing of the 144,000. This should dispel any notion that these are strictly Jews. Furthermore, we are told these Firstfruits of the Harvest go with Jesus wherever He goes!
This latter fact of prophecy shows two important elements we have to include in our eschatology:
- 1. The 144,000 are not missionaries who go out and convert more because they stay with the Lamb who is Christ Jesus.
- 2. Jesus is mobile after His arrival, going wherever He must, needs to, or wants. I would include mobility between Heaven and Earth in Jesus' works after His paraousia just as Jesus demonstrated He was capable of traversing between these two dimensions after His Resurrection before His Ascension.
Now I would say that God has something special planned for Israel; indeed, that is the reason for the Millennium in my opinion.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/15/2008 11:28:45 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:30:51 PM
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stolar1962
Posts: 30
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Rev 7:
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: 5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; F51 of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
when all else fails, look it up.
I don't think it was John who confused the interpretation of the who the 144,000 are..... the passage clearly states this group of people is comprised of members of all the tribes of Childred of Israel. It is different from the list in the Old Testament as Joseph was not list among the origial tribes, but is here. Levi wasn't given a portion of land as his tribe ministered to all the nation, is also listed here
Children of Israel - Jew. sounds pretty straightforward.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:49:01 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1609
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Sorry but I don’t think there any textual basis to support those who claim that the 144, 000 are any entity other than physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To spiritualize the 144, 000 into a Christian group violates the plain sense of the text.
The critical phrase "from every tribe of the sons of Israel" should clarify the question about their identity. This phrase always refers to physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Out of six hundred and thirty-five occurrences of this phrase throughout the Scriptures, Revelation 7:4 would be the only exception.
There is no compelling reason to spiritualize away the literal sense. Every tribe of the sons of Israel has solid biblical support as a referent of Jews only.
Remember, Revelation is principally about the Nation of Israel and how God deals with them. If you question this, just remember where most of the action takes place…is it not Jerusalem? And where the final battle takes place, is it not Israel?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 2:56:14 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Greetings! We see that Paul tells us what is going on with Israel and that she has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Therefore, I believe that the most literal interpretation of the Scripture is relevant to consider rather than replacement over-spiritualization theology.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
It is written that they are from these tribes of Israel.
Unfortunately, a clear interpretation that the 144,000 are Jewish is confused by John. The list of the twelve tribes is unlike any of the other listings for the tribes of Israel (either as a nation or as descendants of the patriarch) in the OT or NT. OT references range from 10 to 13 "tribes" as well.
As Paul expounds, there is a physical Israel (which can be termed a people, a land, and a person) and the spiritual Israel to which we are heirs!
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Why not acknowledge this and understand that God has something special planned for Israel, yet?
Understanding who the 144,000 are is something we should strive to do.
As defined in the Bible, the 144,000 are the Firstfruits of the Harvest. This means they are of a like kind to the Harvest. As we look forward to the Harvest of the Church, we must differentiate between the physical Israel in its various forms and the spiritual Israel whom we, as "offspring of Israel" are.
I owe prophetlady a debt of thanks; I had glossed over the dual nature of Father/Son in the sealing of the 144,000. This should dispel any notion that these are strictly Jews. Furthermore, we are told these Firstfruits of the Harvest go with Jesus wherever He goes!
This latter fact of prophecy shows two important elements we have to include in our eschatology:
- 1. The 144,000 are not missionaries who go out and convert more because they stay with the Lamb who is Christ Jesus.
- 2. Jesus is mobile after His arrival, going wherever He must, needs to, or wants. I would include mobility between Heaven and Earth in Jesus' works after His paraousia just as Jesus demonstrated He was capable of traversing between these two dimensions after His Resurrection before His Ascension.
Now I would say that God has something special planned for Israel; indeed, that is the reason for the Millennium in my opinion.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/15/2008 3:09:14 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 3:16:45 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1761
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry but I don’t think there any textual basis to support those who claim that the 144, 000 are any entity other than physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To spiritualize the 144, 000 into a Christian group violates the plain sense of the text.
The critical phrase "from every tribe of the sons of Israel" should clarify the question about their identity. This phrase always refers to physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Out of six hundred and thirty-five occurrences of this phrase throughout the Scriptures, Revelation 7:4 would be the only exception.
There is no compelling reason to spiritualize away the literal sense. Every tribe of the sons of Israel has solid biblical support as a referent of Jews only.
Remember, Revelation is principally about the Nation of Israel and how God deals with them. If you question this, just remember where most of the action takes place…is it not Jerusalem? And where the final battle takes place, is it not Israel?
Bob
That has always been my understanding, Bob. Thanks for the input!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:04:34 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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I know I am right by the first verse, TWO,
they are a group of individuals who have Holy Spirit, "sound from Heaven like the sound of rushing waters." that is the OUTPOURING of the Spirit, then they will surround the denominations of the church to BUILD them up to truth, like not praying to saints etc..
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:06:05 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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what I meant by not Jews I meant they NEED to believe in Christ Prophetica, I did not say NOT HEBREW, What I meant was some Jews do not believe in Jesus, those 144,000 NEED too.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:08:25 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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Revelations is not only about Israel, it mentions ALL NATIONS WILL WORSHIP HIM right?
Do you not think the House of Jacob could extend to Canada BOB? God said to Abraham about the people right..
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:10:09 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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The 144,000 is what we are talking about, they are a different bunch of people,
[Edited by moderator - TOS 16]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 1/15/2008 4:28:20 PM >
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:17:02 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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Jimbo now you are trying to pull something you should not do dear, remember what Jesus says about that tsk tsk, pointing out errors dear is what I mean, I am typing in a rush is why..
do not be a fault finder
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:21:17 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
Jimbo now you are trying to pull something you should not do dear, remember what Jesus says about that tsk tsk, pointing out errors dear is what I mean, I am typing in a rush is why..
do not be a fault finder
Accuracy is paramount in a prophet. God set the gold standard on prophets - no error allowed.
In all seriousness, to add an "s" to Revelation is a huge indication that a novice is talking. I've never met a serious student of the Bible make that mistake, even as a slip of the tongue.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:28:14 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1609
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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prophetlady,
I’m not sure…don’t remember, but you are apparently pre tribulation, is that the case?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:35:58 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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Greetings prophetlady! Please notice the Scripture says: to test everything and not to put out the Spirits fire.
Jesus said: division and fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
Jimbo now you are trying to pull something you should not do dear, remember what Jesus says about that tsk tsk, pointing out errors dear is what I mean, I am typing in a rush is why..
do not be a fault finder
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:52:55 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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yes I believe in revelation 7# 14 Bob that come out means to exit before hand, and I believe my father would not leave my but down here to witness such atrocities, not my Lord no,
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:54:39 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
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If you dissect every delicate and rare bird you come across then you just end up with a mound of decaying carcasses instead of the wonder and beauty God intended. -JimboFletch
hmmm
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:57:47 PM
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prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
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I do more then just sit at my computer Jim, I have a family to take care of, you should abide your own quote you placed on your page, I am entitled to my own views of The Book of Revelation. Believe me I am not afraid by my views dear. not at all.
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RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 4:58:25 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
If you dissect every delicate and rare bird you come across then you just end up with a mound of decaying carcasses instead of the wonder and beauty God intended. -JimboFletch
hmmm
Would you care to start a thread on the sayings of JimboFletch or does that have anything to do with this topic?
Just curious...
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