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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 5:07:31 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2927
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Matthew 22:34-40 (King James Version)
34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Deut 6:4-5 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
Le 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
Yes, these verses summorize the whole Torah, but tell me how would you determine what to do with a murderer using only these two verses?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 5:12:58 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
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From: Northern CA
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quote:
do not think that that is what they are saying... I think the emphasis is focusing on doing those 2 Commandments and not split focus on all of the Law.
From an American Western mind set you can think it says anything you want it to say.
So all Scripture and every word means just the new improved 2 Commandments?
I guess we could just call the 10 Commandments - 10 Suggestions...
Ok lets go with your line of reasoning.
LoveYourEnemies this is only hypothetical so please don't jump to conclusions.
Lets throw out the Law with all it's rules and regulations. No more Levitical or Rabbinical for that matter. Besides no one can keep every one of them so out they go.
Lets melt the 10 Commandments into 2. All those rules about Sabbath don't apply to savvy Christians anyway.
So we have the 2. Love G~d and love your neighbor.
How do you plan on doing that? What is your criteria for loving G~d and your neighbor?
Where are you going to go to go to find out how to love G~d and your neighbor. Remember you just threw out all the instruction that everyone in the past like Moses and David and Joshua and Paul and Peter and Timothy and Matthew and all the rest of the gang used.
Oh and you can't use anything Yeshua said except for the 2 Commandments because He quoted heavily from the "Old Covenant" and the "Old 10".
< Message edited by Anisavta -- 4/9/2008 5:50:32 PM >
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 5:33:09 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And so since you have boiled all 10 Commandments into the new improved 2 Commandments,
we do not need the Books of Exodus or Leviticus. We can also throw out Psalms because David talks extensivly about the Torah (Law). And while we are at it we can safely throw out all the Prophets because they mention different Laws that the People didn't keep. But why stop there lets change Yeshua's teaching on the Mount and just say,"Yeshua said lots of things, but what He really said was love G~d and each other.
20 Years from now in our New Improved Bible we now have 2 Commandments. We are to love G~d with all our hearts, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. But since we don't know how to do that because we don't have a FOUNDATION, we can come up with good stuff ourselves. Ah but my stuff is different than your stuff. But that's ok because I love G~d and you too.
In other words Manna and Ezra you are indeed walking on thin ice with your reasoning because:
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
and
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers will go forward to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
Folks this "Holy Scriptures" Sha'ul is refering to is not the New Testiment it is the Tanach (Torah 1st 5 books of Moses, Prophets and the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs)
I do not think that that is what they are saying... I think the emphasis is focusing on doing those 2 Commandments and not split focus on all of the Law.
If you focus on loving God and loving others as yourself, the Law takes care of itself.
Those two commandments ARE the Law of God. All of His commandments hang on those two. In other words, those two commandments are the summation of the Law.
Now, if we break some of the other commandments aren't we breaking one, or both, of those two commandments? If we fail to remove a stumbling block from before our neighbour (Leviticus 19:14) aren't we also breaking the commandment to love our neighbour (Leviticus 19:18)? If we ignore the Appointment that HaShem has made with us EVERY Sabbath (Leviticus 23:1-4) aren't we breaking the commandment to obey Him? How can we say we love God if we disobey His commandments?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:14:26 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
Ok lets go with your line of reasoning.
Whose line of reasoning ?
Are you agreeing with lawyer here or Jesus ?
Luke 10:25-28 (King James Version)
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:18:55 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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quote:
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
and
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers will go forward to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
Me thinks the man protests!! And wants to argue for the sake that it sounds good in his ears.
Ok Manna what is your take on these scriptures?
What is the "every word" and the "All Scripture"?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:22:30 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
And so since you have boiled all 10 Commandments into the new improved 2 Commandments,
NO, NO, NO !!!
I haven't boiled anything down !
I did not say that !!!
Jesus said those words !!!
Why are Jesus' words so offensive to you ?
Why blame me for what God said ?
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:32:04 PM
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Anisavta
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From: Northern CA
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Manna are you trying to back me in a corner?
I feel your finger poking me in the shoulder over and over and you saying, "come on come on fight !"
Yeshua also said this:
Mat 5:13 You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses its savor, with what shall it be salted? It is no longer good for anything, but to be thrown out and to be trodden underfoot by men.
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Nor do men light a lamp and put it under the grain-measure, but on a lampstand. And it gives light to all who are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.
Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
As far as I know unless someone hasn't informed me heaven and earth have not passed away yet.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:36:45 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
do not think that that is what they are saying... I think the emphasis is focusing on doing those 2 Commandments and not split focus on all of the Law.
From an American Western mind set you can think it says anything you want it to say.
You are arguing with God himself !!! It is God Who said this, not me or anyone else !
Jesus said to love God and to love neighbor... This covers EVERYTHING according to God Himself ! It's like you are asking, "Who is my neighbor ?" 
Why do you hold Jesus' words in contempt ? You sound like you are in opposition to them ? Are you ? Sounds like you are adding to Jesus' words. Sounds like you are saying we need to do more...
Do you think that John understood the teachings of His Master? What does John say?
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3, NASB)
How do we know that we love our neighbour? When we love God and keep His commandments (plural). How do we know we love God? We keep His commandments (plural). His commandments are easy to do - they are not a burden.
If you "don't get it" yet, then reread 1 John 5:2-3 and substitute "commandments to love God and my neighbour" where it says "commandments" in the phrases "observe His commandments" and "keep His commandments". Do those verses make any sense when you do that?
They will know we are christians by our LOVE !
Not our obedience !!!
Also, last time I checked, 2 is PLURAL ! 
Remember John wrote these words from Jesus !
John 13:34-35 (King James Version)
34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 7:39:33 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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quote:
They will know we are christians by our LOVE !
Not our obedience !!!
So if my grandkids obey me it's not because they love me?
So I don't have to obey the King of the Universe?
Please think your statements out before you post.
What is your definition of love?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 9:00:09 PM
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Ad7
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Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Australia
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G-d desires obedience, to obey is to love, obedience comes from love.
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Hebrews 5:9)
Love is preferring your brother before yourself, is laying down your life for someone else. I think we're in trouble because i haven't met anyone who does this, myself included. The only way we can love as G-d wants us to, is to die to self, self-interest, self-opinion, self-pity, self-righteousness, and become one with Christ.
We know that we love G-d because we are obedient.We cannot separate love from obedience.
iSERVEaJEW, thanks for that link to the series, "What's so new about the New Covenant?". Very, very interesting. If anyone is following this thread i encourage you to take the time to watch this presentation. I think that we don't know as we ought to know. The link is on post #2615.
Godbless,Ad
_____________________________
The more G-d reveals, the more i realise how much remains hidden!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 9:12:46 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
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From: Canada
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You're very welcome. If you enjoyed Tim Hegg's teaching you'll find a whole kosher smorgasbord of it at http://www.torahresource.com .
Here is the link for that DVD, "What's So New About the New Covenant?" For best results, download the three sessions to your computer instead of trying to watch them online. This DVD is a detailed look at what the differences and similarities are between the Old and New Covenants. Some of the ideas were brand new for me. Hegg's insights into these covenants is profound.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 9:28:56 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 603
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To whom this may concern,
Are any of you a part of this...
http://www.icej.org/ The International Christian Embassy Jerusalem
How are these Christians keeping the Law?
PeterD
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 9:44:29 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 603
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 11
1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
Are you imitating Paul and through his example growing in Christ's Love for one another in this way?
That is one of my favourite verses in Scripture. Please, read the following article to understand why. Shalom.
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/article.cgi?t=a1&a=1001
What do you think about this article and the idea of what it means to be a disciple of the Master?
Hello iSERVEaJEW
The Christian group that I'm in is called LCMS or Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod.
Your group is like mine in rules and grace, The grace of Christ helps me to enjoy the rules or law. This part of the church I'm in is part of the http://www.appleofhiseye.org/ and the http://jewsforjesus.org/ ministry.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 4/9/2008 9:50:58 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 10:05:40 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 603
Joined: 4/27/2007
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Acts 18:12-17
12But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, 13saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law." 14But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, "If it were a matter of wrongdoing or vicious crime, O Jews, I would have reason to accept your complaint. 15But since it is a matter of questions about words and names and your own law, see to it yourselves. I refuse to be a judge of these things." 16And he drove them from the tribunal. 17And they all seized Sosthenes, the ruler of the synagogue, and beat him in front of the tribunal. But Gallio paid no attention to any of this.
"This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."
What does this mean?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 10:34:08 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
To whom this may concern,
Are any of you a part of this...
http://www.icej.org/ The International Christian Embassy Jerusalem
How are these Christians keeping the Law?
PeterD
I was there last year!
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/9/2008 10:48:34 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 285
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The Ten Commandments are a perfect set of laws for us to obey. There is no other law that any nation or man need abide by then them. If I obey the Ten Commandments, then you can trust me with your wife, your kids, your possessions and even your very life. Also your reputation will be safe. The Ten Commandments protect every individual form harm, slander and theft.
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 12:02:09 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The Ten Commandments are a perfect set of laws for us to obey. There is no other law that any nation or man need abide by then them. If I obey the Ten Commandments, then you can trust me with your wife, your kids, your possessions and even your very life. Also your reputation will be safe. The Ten Commandments protect every individual form harm, slander and theft.
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:21:10 AM
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cobblestone
Posts: 28
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I have a question?! Acts account of Paul in the temple says that he carried out the rights to say the Jews must keep the law (and he did that) while saying the gentiles only must do those few things. So, the law is still for the Jew then? while the gentiles have grace? What about the grafting and regrafting?
< Message edited by cobblestone -- 4/10/2008 1:27:21 AM >
_____________________________
Blogger
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:21:57 AM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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quote:
The Ten Commandments are a perfect set of laws for us to obey. There is no other law that any nation or man need abide by then them. If I obey the Ten Commandments, then you can trust me with your wife, your kids, your possessions and even your very life. Also your reputation will be safe. The Ten Commandments protect every individual form harm, slander and theft.
Amen and Amen!!!
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:29:40 AM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
However brother he could not keep several of the laws because they deal with a woman during her menstral cycle and childbirth. Other of the laws deal with Temple service and if he is Gentile he is exempt for those.
The 10 Commandments are the foundation. The other laws and regulations are basically commentary and codification of the 10.
I commend him for desiring to love G~d with all his heart, soul and strength and his neighbor as himself.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:43:21 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
However brother he could not keep several of the laws because they deal with a woman during her menstral cycle and childbirth. Other of the laws deal with Temple service and if he is Gentile he is exempt for those.
The 10 Commandments are the foundation. The other laws and regulations are basically commentary and codification of the 10.
I commend him for desiring to love G~d with all his heart, soul and strength and his neighbor as himself.
Your idea of what the Ten Commandments are and his idea might be different.
He said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The Ten Commandments are a perfect set of laws for us to obey. There is no other law that any nation or man need abide by then them. If I obey the Ten Commandments, then you can trust me with your wife, your kids, your possessions and even your very life. Also your reputation will be safe. The Ten Commandments protect every individual form harm, slander and theft.
The Ten Commandments do not include the commandments to love God and our neighbour. They don't include the commandments concerning meats, Festivals, offerings, etc. If we live by only the Ten Commandments we are ignoring some of His commandments.
Do you think that a Gentile is exempt from bringing offerings?
< Message edited by iSERVEaJEW -- 4/10/2008 1:52:18 AM >
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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