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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:56:47 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
I have a question?! Acts account of Paul in the temple says that he carried out the rights to say the Jews must keep the law (and he did that) while saying the gentiles only must do those few things. So, the law is still for the Jew then? while the gentiles have grace? What about the grafting and regrafting?
Perhaps you are referring to Acts 15:1-35, where the apostles and elders at Jerusalem (includingPeter and James) ruled that only certain specific items in the Law applied to Gentiles. It is significant that Peter -- the one who had great difficulty in accepting Gentiles initially -- stated by Divine inspiration:
"Now therefore, why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?" (v. 10). This was clearly a reference to "the Law of Moses" (v. 5), and this is a highly significant statement in view of the claims being made by "Messianics".
What Peter was honestly admitting here is that for the 1,500 years that the Jews had the Law of Moses, (1) it was a yoke and (2) it was impossible to bear, since Israel violated the Law at every turn and thereby brought judgment upon itself.
This council was held in A.D. 46, when the Church was still young, the Temple was still standing, and the great truths of the New Covenant had not as yet been written down for our instruction. Therefore God permitted the Hebrew Christians to continue observing the Law of Moses while limiting it's application to the Gentile Christians.
Today, with the whole New Testament before us, and the teachings of the Holy Spirit recorded in the NT Scriptures, (1) the Law of Moses is obsolete, (2) the Law of Christ has been established for 2,000 years, (3) God does not recognize Jew or Gentile within the Church, the Body of Christ, and (4) the New Covenant under God's grace set's us free to obey the New Commandment which is from Christ.
These truths are being resisted by some today, even though Christians have recognized them and rejoiced in them for over 2 millenia.
As for the "grafting" and "re-grafting" (as you say) that is a separate issue altogether. Believing Jews are likened to an olive tree which has been tended, from which unbelieving Jews are branches that are "broken off", whereas believing Gentiles are likened to a wild olive tree from which some branches are grafted into the tended olive tree (Romans 11). This teaching is to prevent believing Gentiles from being high-minded and despising believing Jews, since all believers are considered to be the spiritual "Israel of God".
At the same time, we are taught in NT Scripture that "circumcision availeth nothing" and "uncircumcision availeth nothing", since within the Church all distinctions between Jew and Gentile have been abolished. This also means that setting up "Messianic" congregations and bringing back the distinctions between Jew and Gentile is actually bringing division into the Body of Christ.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/10/2008 2:04:17 AM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 2:30:47 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
"Now therefore, why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?" (v. 10). This was clearly a reference to "the Law of Moses" (v. 5), and this is a highly significant statement in view of the claims being made by "Messianics".
They aren't talking about the Law of God in Acts 15:10. Would you like to know what they're talking about?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 4:49:35 AM
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Ad7
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Yeah, i think i know the answer, but tell me anyway!!
I know this question isn't for me, but................
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 5:17:06 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad7
Yeah, i think i know the answer, but tell me anyway!!
I know this question isn't for me, but................
The Law of God is not a burden. Moses said it wasn't too difficult (Deuteronomy 30:11-14). Our Messiah said it was easy (Matthew 11:28-30). John says the commandments aren't a burden (1 John 5:3). James said that it liberating (James 1:25). David said that be would walk with freedom by following His precepts (Psalm 119:45). King Josiah lived according to all of the Law (2 Kings 23:25). John the Baptist's parents walked blameless in all the commandments of HaShem (Luke 1:6).
So, what were they talking about? In Acts 15:1, they say they're talking about the "customs" of Moses. That is NOT the Law of God. If you were a religious Jew, you'd understand that the Rabbis teach that there is the written Law and the oral law, or customs. Now, here's where the confusion comes in. In the Bible, the word "law" is sometimes used to refer to the oral law, or customs. The reason for this is that in the eyes of a religious Jew, they are on a par with each other.
We know that Acts 15:10 is not talking about the Law of God because it isn't a burden and the "law" of Acts 15:5 is actually the "customs" of Acts 15:1. Also, we know that the Pharisees have been known to tied up heavy burdens on people (Matthew 23:4).
The traditions of men can bring us into bondage. The Law of God brings life.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 8:34:20 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad7
Yeah, i think i know the answer, but tell me anyway!!
I know this question isn't for me, but................
The Law of God is not a burden. Moses said it wasn't too difficult (Deuteronomy 30:11-14). Our Messiah said it was easy (Matthew 11:28-30). John says the commandments aren't a burden (1 John 5:3). James said that it is liberating (James 1:25).
Greetings,
Exactly,
May I add??...LOL!
When we ask and the Lord begins to deal with us in some issue or another, because the Law is written on our hearts, which alludes to conviction, such as selfishness for example,
Just yesterday I became a little selfish because I was trying to get some study done and every other minute there was interruption, (the real Satan).....so when my wife needed me for something, I blew her off, ....and “immediately” I saw how disorganized everything became and what the Lord was trying to show me,.....As long as one is paying attention to the still small voice, (John 10:27).. who tells them they have done wrong.... Lu 12:36
………..that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately.
I saw immediately the affects of the action according to the Law and the in-action almost within the very same hour, (1Pe 2:25) as well as the extra added blessing for acknowledging Him for that recognition…”and that was the only work required”….as James said ....it is liberating…. and He definitely does answer back by letting you know He heard it.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does
quote:
The traditions of men can bring us into bondage.
I am finding more and more amazing in my walk that it seems people actually speak themselves into sickness (bondage) and like it!
quote:
The Law of God brings life.
Our Messiah said it was easy (Matthew 11:28-30) ….and how true it is!!
Mt 7:14 - Show Context
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 10:47:42 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
Posts: 37
Joined: 3/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Acts 18:12-17
12But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, 13saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law." 14But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, "If it were a matter of wrongdoing or vicious crime, O Jews, I would have reason to accept your complaint. 15But since it is a matter of questions about words and names and your own law, see to it yourselves. I refuse to be a judge of these things." 16And he drove them from the tribunal. 17And they all seized Sosthenes, the ruler of the synagogue, and beat him in front of the tribunal. But Gallio paid no attention to any of this.
"This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."
What does this mean?
We must remember that the Jews also accused Jesus of breaking the law, more specifically the Sabbath more than anything else. If Jesus broke God's law, then he was a sinner and could not have been our Savior. Just because Paul was accused of breaking the law doesn't mean he was breaking God's law. He wasn't following the man-made laws of the Jews and this is what they were complaining about. We are follow God's law above man's law.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 10:56:16 AM
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LoveYourEnemies
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Loyal Gypsy,
I enjoyed reading your post, #2782, I think you made a wonderful point.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 11:30:01 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 12:14:06 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
Your kidding again right?
On one occasion an expert of the law stood up to test Yeshua. "Teacher" he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" " What is written in the Law?" Yeshua replied. "How do you read it?" the expert of the law answered: "Love the the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and with all your strength and with all of your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. "You have answered correctly," Yeshua replied." Do this and you will live."
I guess with that then says that all of the laws are some up into the two thoughts. It seems you can't understand what is required to have eternal life.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 12:23:47 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
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Gypsy I agree with LYE - good post.
mccleod you are a broken record. Move on.
So let me repost my post to you. I would appreciate an answer.
Yeshua also said this:
Mat 5:13 You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses its savor, with what shall it be salted? It is no longer good for anything, but to be thrown out and to be trodden underfoot by men.
Mat 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15 Nor do men light a lamp and put it under the grain-measure, but on a lampstand. And it gives light to all who are in the house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.
Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. As far as I know unless someone hasn't informed me heaven and earth have not passed away yet.
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Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 12:40:10 PM
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mcleod
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Say Anisavta I'm not a broken record you can't even write in a nice manner.
Yes he said those things and I agree with those of his. Yet for some odd reason you forgot what the prophets wrote in theirs. Which doesn't surprise me because 97% of who say they follow those teaching of his miss it greatly. Like he said you worry on the small matters of the law yet missed the big picture. Temple people in that day and even bfore that. Had the laws covered, yet because of their arrogant pride fell flat on their face.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 12:50:05 PM
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Anisavta
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quote:
Temple people in that day and even bfore that. Had the laws covered, yet because of their arrogant pride fell flat on their face.
Who are these "temple people"?
Paul, Yeshua, Peter, Matthew, Timothy and all those 120 who received the Holy Spirit on Shavuot. BTW they were in the Temple not the upper room.
And before that... you mean all the Prophets??? And King David too???
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Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:02:54 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xxxxxx
xxxxx you are a broken record. Move on.
This is example of how not to post.
Everyone, please keep your self-control in check. If this topic proves to difficult for one to do so then I would advise one to refrain from posting further so that I am not forced to take action.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 1:25:42 PM
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Anisavta
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So maybe if I rephrase my question. I would really like definition of blanket statements that define one way of thinking as opposed to another (I would think) valid way of thinking.
Please define for me the "temple people" you are talking about.
Who do you say they are mccleod?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 2:06:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
cobblestone:
I have a question?! Acts account of Paul in the temple says that he carried out the rights to say the Jews must keep the law (and he did that) while saying the gentiles only must do those few things. So, the law is still for the Jew then? while the gentiles have grace? What about the grafting and regrafting?
Acts 15:20 Refers to the rules that the new believers were to follow to enter the synogogue(church) where they would learn the rest of the Torah as they discuss it with the estabished believers, as verse 21 points out.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 2:22:25 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
cobblestone:
I have a question?! Acts account of Paul in the temple says that he carried out the rights to say the Jews must keep the law (and he did that) while saying the gentiles only must do those few things. So, the law is still for the Jew then? while the gentiles have grace? What about the grafting and regrafting?
Acts 15:20 Refers to the rules that the new believers were to follow to enter the synogogue(church) where they would learn the rest of the Torah as they discuss it with the estabished believers, as verse 21 points out.
This is exactly why we don't take the Book of Acts as doctrinal. It is historical. It is the story of the early church, their trials and tribulations, their dreams and their realities. They tried many things that didn't work, including communism.
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
Hey, things haven't changed much at all, have they?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 2:57:12 PM
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cobblestone
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According to this site
http://ffoz.org/info/faqs.html that I found in someones signature it says
quote:
While it is true that we teach equal obligation to the Torah, we must also remember to preserve and cherish the unique place of ethnic Jews among us and be wary of doing anything that might displace their unique, historic connection with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. While it is true that Paul said “there is neither Jew nor Greek,” he also said in the same verse, “there is neither male nor female.” Obviously he did not mean that we should obliterate the lines of distinction between genders. Neither then should we obliterate the lines of distinction between Jew and Gentile.
The Bible fully obligates Jews to keep the Torah. Acts 21:20–25 makes it clear that the Apostles expected Jewish believers to remain steadfast in Torah after coming to faith in Messiah.
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceeded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
quote:
Acts 21:20-25
20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Yet according to Gal 4:21-30 it clearly states that the law is spiritual
quote:
Galatians 4:21-30 KJV
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Children of Sarah are of grace but childen of Hagar are of the law. Other versions bring it out clearer but I tried to stay with the older manuscripts
< Message edited by cobblestone -- 4/10/2008 3:04:41 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 3:35:20 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
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quote:
cobblestone:
Children of Sarah are of grace but childen of Hagar are of the law. Other versions bring it out clearer but I tried to stay with the older manuscripts
I'm getting confused. Are you now saying that the law is for the gentile(Hagar) and not for the jew(Sarah)?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 3:49:09 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
URForgiven:
This is exactly why we don't take the Book of Acts as doctrinal. It is historical. It is the story of the early church, their trials and tribulations, their dreams and their realities. They tried many things that didn't work, including communism.
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
This is an interesting hermenutic. I am not sure what you are saying. How am I supposed to interpret "historical" Scripture? Specifically, what is being done wrong here? Were they wrong to require rules for admission? Where the rules not correct? Was is wrong to continue to study theTorah? How does one determine the answers to these questions?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 3:51:00 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
URForgiven:
This is exactly why we don't take the Book of Acts as doctrinal. It is historical. It is the story of the early church, their trials and tribulations, their dreams and their realities. They tried many things that didn't work, including communism.
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
This is an interesting hermenutic. I am not sure what you are saying. How am I supposed to interpret "historical" Scripture? Specifically, what is being done wrong here? Were they wrong to require rules for admission? Where the rules not correct? Was is wrong to continue to study theTorah? How does one determine the answers to these questions?
...keep reading?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 3:58:13 PM
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Bluethread
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I did keep reading and that is how I determined that they were talking about rules of admission to Torah study. Also that since there is a need for rules of admission then it follows that Torah study for the purpose of proper living is an acceptabe practice.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 4:19:11 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did keep reading and that is how I determined that they were talking about rules of admission to Torah study. Also that since there is a need for rules of admission then it follows that Torah study for the purpose of proper living is an acceptabe practice.
Your still not there...keep reading.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 4:35:29 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
This is exactly why we don't take the Book of Acts as doctrinal. It is historical. It is the story of the early church, their trials and tribulations, their dreams and their realities. They tried many things that didn't work, including communism.
They didn't try "communism". They were merely dealing with a VERY unusual situation. THOUSANDS of PILGRIMS (people who lived ALL over the diaspora) were suddenly filled with Messianic fervor as they participated in the miraculous events of those days. Most of these people did not own property in and around Judea and they probably hadn't budgeted for an extended stay in Jerusalem. It is only teachers who are ignorant of the situation who say that the Bible promotes communal living. Their situation was a reaction to a very unusual situation and not the norm.
quote:
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
If you respected Acts more perhaps you'd understand why you're wrong.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 4:39:38 PM
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Bluethread
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Joined: 11/8/2007
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They went to the various groups bringing the news that conversion to rabbinic judaism was not necessary and the general rules of admission to the community. Then in Chapter 16 the the rest of their visits are recorded. I see no prohibition of Kosher living or the discussion thereof so far.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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