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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 4:46:15 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
According to this site
http://ffoz.org/info/faqs.html that I found in someones signature it says
quote:
While it is true that we teach equal obligation to the Torah, we must also remember to preserve and cherish the unique place of ethnic Jews among us and be wary of doing anything that might displace their unique, historic connection with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. While it is true that Paul said “there is neither Jew nor Greek,” he also said in the same verse, “there is neither male nor female.” Obviously he did not mean that we should obliterate the lines of distinction between genders. Neither then should we obliterate the lines of distinction between Jew and Gentile.
The Bible fully obligates Jews to keep the Torah. Acts 21:20–25 makes it clear that the Apostles expected Jewish believers to remain steadfast in Torah after coming to faith in Messiah.
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceeded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
quote:
Acts 21:20-25
20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Where does Acts 21:20-25 say Paul said Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah? Please quote the specific verse, for I cannot see ANY verse that says that. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion concerning Paul that is interfering with your ability to understand that passage?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 5:43:55 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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quote:
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
Hey, things haven't changed much at all, have they?
Please tell me you are refering to both the Jews and Gentile. If you are not I really find that statement offensive.
Any Mod or Admin want to jump in here and remind our friends that anti-Semitic remarks are unexceptable?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 6:06:40 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
quote:
Acts is transitional, in that it is the story of how Jews learned what it now meant to be living in the age of grace. They made many mistakes, believed many things wrongly.
Hey, things haven't changed much at all, have they?
Please tell me you are refering to both the Jews and Gentile. If you are not I really find that statement offensive.
Any Mod or Admin want to jump in here and remind our friends that anti-Semitic remarks are unexceptable?
Ya'll need to take some chill pills. I was speaking of Jewish Christians obviously, since Jews made up the vast majority of early Believers.
The early Believers, who consisted of mostly converted Jews, made many mistakes and believed many things wrongly.
There, is that better?
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:08:40 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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That may be, but you still haven't made clear what you think they did wrong? see post#2799
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:13:00 PM
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cobblestone
Posts: 28
Joined: 1/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
According to this site
http://ffoz.org/info/faqs.html that I found in someones signature it says
quote:
While it is true that we teach equal obligation to the Torah, we must also remember to preserve and cherish the unique place of ethnic Jews among us and be wary of doing anything that might displace their unique, historic connection with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. While it is true that Paul said “there is neither Jew nor Greek,” he also said in the same verse, “there is neither male nor female.” Obviously he did not mean that we should obliterate the lines of distinction between genders. Neither then should we obliterate the lines of distinction between Jew and Gentile.
The Bible fully obligates Jews to keep the Torah. Acts 21:20–25 makes it clear that the Apostles expected Jewish believers to remain steadfast in Torah after coming to faith in Messiah.
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceeded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
quote:
Acts 21:20-25
20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Where does Acts 21:20-25 say Paul said Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah? Please quote the specific verse, for I cannot see ANY verse that says that. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion concerning Paul that is interfering with your ability to understand that passage?
well.my only defense could be Paul reeming out Peter for following Jews in seperating himself from the gentiles to partake in traditions, but as it is I feel compelled to do that myself from here. :wave:
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:13:38 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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Not really URforgiven.
You see Jews are not converted. Rice is converted. Jews remain Jews when they accept Yeshua as HaMashiach (Messiah).
You are flippant even in your back track of the remark.
I am a Jew. My mother was a Jew and a Believer. My Grandfather was a Jew and my Grandmother was a Jew. They remained Jews even after they came to Messiah.
Because of your remarks about the mistakes Jews made my people have a very hard time accepting your Jesus. The Jesus you present who makes Jews into Christians instead of Jews who believe in Messiah and stay Jews and who "made many mistakes" is the Jesus they think had a hand in the Pogroms (my Grandfather was one of those who suffered thru that) and the Crusades and the Holocaust (my relatives knew those horrors). Because of your attitude when I go to Israel to share the Gospel I have to deal with anti missionaries who tell me I am stealing souls.
You URforgiven seem to think you have a handle on this grace thing but by your comments, I find very little grace given.
And BTW those Jews who made many mistakes and believed many things wrongly. followed the teachings of the Apostles and later Paul.
< Message edited by Anisavta -- 4/10/2008 7:20:50 PM >
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:13:53 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
That may be, but you still haven't made clear what you think they did wrong? see post#2799
Actually, I have, it was simply discounted quickly, much to quickly in fact.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:17:52 PM
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cobblestone
Posts: 28
Joined: 1/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
That may be, but you still haven't made clear what you think they did wrong? see post#2799
Actually, I have, it was simply discounted quickly, much to quickly in fact.
Thats why I dont like debating...
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Blogger
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:39:15 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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Sorry, I don't recall doing that. If I did please remind me of the points. If it wasn't me, that's no reason to shrink back if you believe you are correct.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 7:45:15 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Sorry, I don't recall doing that. If I did please remind me of the points. If it wasn't me, that's no reason to shrink back if you believe you are correct.
Actually, I have lost interest. Adult A.D.D lol. I believe my main point was that Acts is not doctrinal. Not a point I wish to debate BTW. Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 9:18:42 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceeded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
Where does Acts 21:20-25 say Paul said Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah? Please quote the specific verse, for I cannot see ANY verse that says that. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion concerning Paul that is interfering with your ability to understand that passage?
well.my only defense could be Paul reeming out Peter for following Jews in seperating himself from the gentiles to partake in traditions, but as it is I feel compelled to do that myself from here. :wave:
So, you admit that Acts 21:20-25 doesn't say that? Please, be clear with your posts.
In Acts 21:20-15, Paul is being FALSELY accused of teaching Jews in the Diaspora "to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." If it were true, Paul would be teaching the Jews to stop following the Law of God and the traditions of the Rabbis. Paul did neither! This verse says nothing at all about what Paul was, or wasn't, teaching the Gentiles.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 9:47:55 PM
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cobblestone
Posts: 28
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceeded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
Where does Acts 21:20-25 say Paul said Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah? Please quote the specific verse, for I cannot see ANY verse that says that. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion concerning Paul that is interfering with your ability to understand that passage?
well.my only defense could be Paul reeming out Peter for following Jews in seperating himself from the gentiles to partake in traditions, but as it is I feel compelled to do that myself from here. :wave:
So, you admit that Acts 21:20-25 doesn't say that? Please, be clear with your posts.
In Acts 21:20-15, Paul is being FALSELY accused of teaching Jews in the Diaspora "to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." If it were true, Paul would be teaching the Jews to stop following the Law of God and the traditions of the Rabbis. Paul did neither! This verse says nothing at all about what Paul was, or wasn't, teaching the Gentiles.
It seems to me that y'all are more interested in battles of wit than getting at the truth so here is what I believe to be the truth of the matter, not that I feel unarmed but just that I dont find beating dead horses enjoyable.  so its all I have to add to what I already said but after all the posts piled up in this thread I'm sure I or you have nothing new to add. to the topic. Agree to disagree. If you feel that keeping a Jewish identification is necessary to you then thats your perogative. I identify with the risen Lord who has built foundations in the heavenlies to which He allows me to sit with Him. But if you prefer earthly inheritance its your choice.
Acts 15:4-40 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.[c]
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
btw, I wonder Son1 if the Acts of the bible are not biblical and if God is able to save the ark from the Philistines with no help from man dont you think He's capable of taking care of His own Words?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 9:58:34 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
Status: offline
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quote:
So, what were they talking about? In Acts 15:1, they say they're talking about the "customs" of Moses. That is NOT the Law of God...
We know that Acts 15:10 is not talking about the Law of God because it isn't a burden and the "law" of Acts 15:5 is actually the "customs" of Acts 15:1.
This is not only completely false and misleading, but a denial of the very words of Scripture.
In Acts 15:1 we have (in the KJV) "circumcised after the manner of Moses" which can also be translated as "circumcised after the custom of Moses" but can never be translated as "after the tradition of the elders".
Circumcision as prescribed by Moses is the point at issue, and this is to be found in Leviticus 12:1-4, where circumcision was to be done on the eighth day after the birth of a male child. At the same time, anyone who wished to partake of the Passover was also commanded to be circumcised (Ex. 12:43-49). This is the Law of God given to Israel through Moses and Aaron (Ex. 12:50).
In Acts 15:5 we have (KJV) "command them to keep the Law of Moses" not "command them to keep the tradition of the elders".
And in Acts 15:21 we have (KJV) "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him" not "For the elders of old time have in every city them that preach their traditions".
The entire context of Acts 15 is the applicability of the Torah (the Law of Moses, the first five books of the OT) to the Gentiles. It has nothing whatosever to say regarding the rabbinic or oral tradition which is now enshrined in the Talmud. And in this discussion Peter states unreservedly that the Law of Moses is a "yoke" "which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear" (v. 10).
This statement of Peter's totally undercuts the modern Messianic idea that believing Jews can "keep" the Law of Moses. As I have stated earlier, I can prove from Scripture that there is not a single Messianic or other Jew who can obey the Law of Moses completely and perfectly. And Scripture says that if you break this Law in one point, you have broken it altogether.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 11:19:09 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 598
Joined: 4/27/2007
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Galatians 3:1-29
Paul asks
2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
URForgiven, how do Christians understand this question that Paul asks, even a Christian like me?
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 4/10/2008 11:26:43 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 11:26:05 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Galatians 3:1-29
Paul asks
2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
URForgiven, how do Christians understand this question that Paul asks, even a Christian like me?
PeterD
I understand Paul's question, but I do not understand yours.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/10/2008 11:54:56 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 598
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Galatians 3:1-29
Paul asks
2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
URForgiven, how do Christians understand this question that Paul asks, even a Christian like me?
PeterD
I understand Paul's question, but I do not understand yours.
Hello URForgiven,
I'm trying to understand, is there a differance between law and grace/ works and grace?
URForgiven, Paul said, "12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Galatians 5:12
Does this verse apply to Christians who believe they need the law to have eternal life?
Please talk further about Galatians 5:12 and why Paul addressed this issue!!!
PeterD
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 12:22:18 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 521
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Galatians 3:1-29
Paul asks
2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
URForgiven, how do Christians understand this question that Paul asks, even a Christian like me?
PeterD
I understand Paul's question, but I do not understand yours.
Hello URForgiven,
I'm trying to understand, is there a differance between law and grace/ works and grace?
URForgiven, Paul said, "12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Galatians 5:12
Does this verse apply to Christians who believe they need the law to have eternal life?
Please talk further about Galatians 5:12 and why Paul addressed this issue!!!
PeterD
In Gal 5:12 Paul is addressing those who were attempting to place Believers back under the law. As you can see, he did not think too highly of them.
In Gal 3:29 Paul is addressing those who have come under the influence of these folks...he is reminding them that they did not receive the Spirit by observing the law, but by faith.
"Works" may or may not involve the law. But the idea is the same, that one can make themselves acceptable to God. Christianity is the opposite of that, Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.
That's the way the cookie crumbles for me. Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 1:14:07 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
So, what were they talking about? In Acts 15:1, they say they're talking about the "customs" of Moses. That is NOT the Law of God...
We know that Acts 15:10 is not talking about the Law of God because it isn't a burden and the "law" of Acts 15:5 is actually the "customs" of Acts 15:1.
This is not only completely false and misleading, but a denial of the very words of Scripture.
In Acts 15:1 we have (in the KJV) "circumcised after the manner of Moses" which can also be translated as "circumcised after the custom of Moses" but can never be translated as "after the tradition of the elders".
No, it isn't a denial of Scripture. It is a proper interpretation of Scripture. It isn't my fault if you think you can interpret an event that happened nearly 2,000 years ago WITHOUT a proper understanding of Rabbinic theology. You seem have no idea what the Pharisees believed and taught concerning proselytism, so what makes you think you can understand the context of Acts 15?
If you want to understand this better, please read the following short thread.
Is it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 7:52:51 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2229
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
The verses that refers to clearly state that Paul said gentiles are NOT to follow custom but when pressed he conceded to say that Jews should keep their Jewishness
Where Acts 21:20-25 does say Paul said Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah?
Please quote the specific verse, for I cannot see ANY verse that says that. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion concerning Paul that is interfering with your ability to understand that passage?
Greetings,
They do understand it, its Torah,
If Paul (A Rabbi) said in Acts 21:20-25 that Gentiles are NOT to follow the Torah by the Truth in the messianic understanding, can not be suggsting that...because Jesus is the Torah… by His own words,
(John1.. the Word became flesh)…. then you are really saying… because you do not understand completely........
you are saying that Paul is suggesting Gentiles are NOT to follow the (Jesus) Torah?
If you knew what the Torah is, then you would understand this here…
Lu 24:27 - Show Context
And beginning at Moses (Torah) and all the Prophets, “He”…. expounded to them……. in all the Scriptures…. the things concerning Himself.
Here is part of the problem from the get go
New International Version (NIV) has no clue at times and uses words that have nothing to do with the original contexts, and is very Pharisaical, so it can sell Bibles to those of like manner.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/11/2008 8:00:47 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 8:12:36 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
Your kidding again right?
On one occasion an expert of the law stood up to test Yeshua. "Teacher" he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" " What is written in the Law?" Yeshua replied. "How do you read it?" the expert of the law answered: "Love the the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and with all your strength and with all of your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. "You have answered correctly," Yeshua replied." Do this and you will live."
I guess with that then says that all of the laws are some up into the two thoughts. It seems you can't understand what is required to have eternal life.
AMEN AND AMEN !!!
Let's not call sanitary, good hygiene a command-
Let's not call helpful dietary advice godly instruction-
Let' not call common sense sanctification and holiness-
Let's not confuse customs, hertiage, and rituals with
the means to make oneself acceptable in God's eyes.
Mark 7 (King James Version)
1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Don't attack the messenger...these are Jesus' words...
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 8:59:30 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2229
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
Your kidding again right?
Greetings,
quote:
the expert of the law answered: "Love the the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and with all your strength and with all of your mind,
First you left out "all of your"... soul ...each requires ALL.
Now if we look at it this way...
In the Law of Moses ......there was a requirement or a sacrifice for unintentional sin, ………meaning that we may have sinned and have no clue what that was.... they are so habitual…. that when we do them, it is without the knowledge thereof ..... Therefore unintentional
So, Moses commanded that the sacrifice be made.
Which in opposite is a type of Matt 22:37
In like manner the 603 …or whatever the number is.....are not commands, they are habits, things we do habitually without the knowledge thereof or unintentional (human nature)
Mt 22:37 - Show Context
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Now let’s finish it
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it:
'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these "two commandments" .........hang all the Law and the Prophets."
When Jesus said, On these "two commandments" hang “all”… the Law and the Prophets."
Let us show you what this means...... that when we love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind.' …AND… love your neighbor as yourself.'
All those 603 Habits although unintentional are still subject to, or that hang all the Law and the Prophets."
When we keep to the 2 commands, these unintentional sins are set straight…. and God imputes them without our knowledge thereof.
............And is written, as such
............For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now.... you got to catch this…
In Luke 10:25-37
Only 1 of the commandments was confessed from v25-28 whereby Jesus answered
do this and you will live."
Then it is written and says in verse
29 But he, wanting to justify “”himself””” (By the First Commandment), said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
There is a difference in just living, and being given. Eternal life….
Jesus said
28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will “live”."
You see that did not answer the question….
Be it he question was…
……….."Teacher, what shall “”I do”” to inherit “eternal life”?"
Although the expert would have lived he can not justify himself and ….He still habitually would have been sinning unintentionally
Ro 5:18 - Show Context
Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
SO
When we love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind.' …AND… love our neighbor as yourself, “it causes” God to direct our nature to be conformed into the image of His Son…. who kept the 603 Habits,
……..As Jesus said, in Joh 16:14
He will (God will) glorify Me, for He (God) will take of “what is Mine”… and declare it to you. =Ro 5:18
Therefore, 40 On these "two commandments" hang “…”all””… the Law and the Prophets."
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/11/2008 9:34:34 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 11:58:43 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
So maybe if I rephrase my question. I would really like definition of blanket statements that define one way of thinking as opposed to another (I would think) valid way of thinking.
Please define for me the "temple people" you are talking about.
Who do you say they are mccleod?
The temple people of the time the Messiah was doing is his ministry were the sadducees, pharisee, priest and the chief priest. Those are the temple people who would have a the power of that time as far as religious tones. Just to save some pounding the keys I wrote that.
The prophets would ask Israel to change it's way of thinking. The problem I notice a lot was an arrogant attitude they had. Which meant they thought of themselves over another individual's needs and feelings.
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Paul was not talking about Gentiles in that passage.
