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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 12:36:52 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Here is part of the problem from the get go
New International Version (NIV) has no clue at times and uses words that have nothing to do with the original contexts, and is very Pharisaical, so it can sell Bibles to those of like manner.
To get off the suject a little.  I am at great distress that you think that. I found a lot of those like Mike Pheilips who have study the original text. Say what they find in it says that it is not exactly. That the translators are not giving a wrong impression from the original word either.
You have to keep in mind that even the original transscripes Were written by a person who was trying to do their best and not to make a mistake.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 1:47:26 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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quote:
The temple people of the time the Messiah was doing is his ministry were the sadducees, pharisee, priest and the chief priest. Those are the temple people who would have a the power of that time as far as religious tones. Just to save some pounding the keys I wrote that.
The prophets would ask Israel to change it's way of thinking. The problem I notice a lot was an arrogant attitude they had. Which meant they thought of themselves over another individual's needs and feelings.
"was doing is his ministry were" not catching your sentence structure or meaning here.
But I think you are saying that those "temple people" (BTW I find that a funny statement sort of like when you don't like a man and call him, ' that boy') ie the religious leaders of the day were messing up Torah and turning it into a religious exercise instead of matters of the heart like Yeshua was teaching. So since the Religious leaders of the day messed up Torah it is fair to say it needs to be thrown out. Is that what I hear you saying?
Lets take it to modern day. Those "church people" aka Religious leaders of the day are messing up the New Testiment, changing what it says to fit their fancy and making it "comfortable" for people so they will fill those pews. So since the Religious leaders of today are messing up the New Testiment it needs to be thrown out. Is that how your line of reasoning plays out if you follow it to the conclusion based on the conclusion of your first line of reasoning about Torah?
You have now decided the Prophets are arrogant because they - what - spoke the Word of G~d to the people and didn't take into account their (sinful) feelings?
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 3:14:38 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
So maybe if I rephrase my question. I would really like definition of blanket statements that define one way of thinking as opposed to another (I would think) valid way of thinking.
Please define for me the "temple people" you are talking about.
Who do you say they are mccleod?
The temple people of the time the Messiah was doing is his ministry were the sadducees, pharisee, priest and the chief priest. Those are the temple people who would have a the power of that time as far as religious tones. Just to save some pounding the keys I wrote that.
The prophets would ask Israel to change it's way of thinking. The problem I notice a lot was an arrogant attitude they had. Which meant they thought of themselves over another individual's needs and feelings.
Greetings,
quote:
The prophets would ask Israel to change it's way of thinking. The problem I notice a lot was an arrogant attitude they had.
Even more so, there was never a mention of a Levite in the Gospel scriptures,
I believe the Levites were the priests, and after the sacrifices, weren't they the ones who should have been out ministering among the people??
But they were never seen, or even mentioned as addressing Jesus... or at least I have not as yet been led to see it,
However what I have seen is
All we see are scribes and Pharisees, and by the suggestion that they are of the temple, then they seem to be a bit of place, being out of place meaning ministering to the people the customs of Moses, and not being Levites themselves.
I can show by the scriptures that the reason why the priests were not visible was because they were over burdened with the sacrifices brought to them to be preformed by the people, for the very reason the Pharisees ministering to the people the customs of Moses and the scribes were numbering or logging people’s sins.
That was big business in those days, and as we saw Jesus addressed it in like manner when He overturned the commerce that was taking place in the temple courts, much like it is today.
For example
Today we the Catholics supporting those less fortunate but offering them no salvation as to bring them out of their poverty, and in like manner we have certain protestant division, who continually do not preach ENOUGH of the word to set people free, so the bottom line is the people have to keep coming back for more and asking for more, to support the organizations loving hearts.
In like manner, as the temple priests were over burdened in the Gospels with the legalism burdened to the point not be found ministering among the people, because of the numbering $$$ of their sacrifices according to the customs of Moses
Much like it is today, today certain so called Christian originations keep the priests off the streets in like manner, by over burdening them with the legalisms and keeping them in Spiritual poverty… even though they have been forgiven and have been commissioned to preach the word.
Buy that alone I praise the Lord for organizations such as Benny Hinn and those world wide ministries who are mopping up that mess.
Now Jesus addressed the 2 types of priesthood in the second part of the previous post I left,
When the expert who was trying to justify himself … said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
Jesus gives the account of mankind in the state it is physical sense to reveal a Spiritual truth, whereby using that certain man in that example as being caught up among thieves (Satan) leaving him half dead.
And furthermore the rest of the example is of Jesus Himself 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he “journeyed,” came where he was.(to the earth) And when he saw him, he had compassion.…. and Jesus prophetically spoke of what is going to be judged at His second coming 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'
31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
That example is prophetic of the 2 types of priesthood that is in the world today, as I mentioned above
1 passes by on one side. the side of legalisms therefore creating poverty,
and the other passes by on the other side. a Levite (Saint) who was supposed to minister to the people leaving it for someone else to do.
There is a lot to be gained from the scriptures that is not mentioned, about the 2 commandments.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 3:18:25 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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Here's a verse to chew.
I have a comparison in various versions so you won't think I chose a fav. Interesting - the word LAW is nomos in Greek which is the same word used in the scriptures y'all love to use to prove that the law is kaput.
law3551nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.
Gal 2:16 Knowing1492 that3754 a man444 is not3756 justified1344 by1537 the works2041 of the law,3551 but3362 by1223 the faith4102 of Jesus2424 Christ,5547 even2532 we2249 have believed4100 in1519 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 that2443 we might be justified1344 by1537 the faith4102 of Christ,5547 and2532 not3756 by1537 the works2041 of the law:3551 for1360 by1537 the works2041 of the law3551 shall no3756 flesh4561 be justified.1344
Jas 1:25
(BBE) But he who goes on looking into the true law which makes him free, being not a hearer without memory but a doer putting it into effect, this man will have a blessing on his acts.
(CEV) But you must never stop looking at the perfect law that sets you free. God will bless you in everything you do, if you listen and obey, and don't just hear and forget.
(KJV+) But1161 whoso looketh3879 into1519 the perfect5046 law3551 of(3588) liberty,1657 and2532 continueth3887 therein, he3778 being1096 not3756 a forgetful1953 hearer,202 but235 a doer4163 of the work,2041 this man3778 shall be2071 blessed3107 in1722 his848 deed.4162
(LITV) But the one looking into the perfect Law of liberty, and continuing in it, this one not having become a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in his doing.
(MKJV) But whoever looks into the perfect Law of liberty and continues in it, he is not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work. This one shall be blessed in his doing.
(MSG) But whoever catches a glimpse of the revealed counsel of God--the free life!--even out of the corner of his eye, and sticks with it, is no distracted scatterbrain but a man or woman of action. That person will find delight and affirmation in the action.
(CJB) But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires,then he will be blessed in what he does.
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 3:21:04 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
That isn't Biblical. You're forgetting the other 603 commandments.
Your kidding again right?
On one occasion an expert of the law stood up to test Yeshua. "Teacher" he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" " What is written in the Law?" Yeshua replied. "How do you read it?" the expert of the law answered: "Love the the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and with all your strength and with all of your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. "You have answered correctly," Yeshua replied." Do this and you will live."
I guess with that then says that all of the laws are some up into the two thoughts. It seems you can't understand what is required to have eternal life.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Don't attack the messenger...these are Jesus' words...
Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Our Master is talking about the TRADITION of washing your hands in a ritual manner before you eat. This is not a commandment of the Bible. I repeat, this is not a commandment of the Bible. One more time: this is NOT a commandment of the Bible.
This is a traditional teaching of MAN and, like all traditions, it is wrong to condemn people who don't follow it. Our Master's disciples were being condemned because they didn't wash their hands in this ritual manner before eating their bread.
I challenge you to show me where the Scriptures forbid us from eating without washing our hands in a ritual manner if you don't believe me.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 4:00:52 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Anisavta,
quote:
was doing is his ministry were"
His three and half years on the location in Israel. When he walked all over the land and had people following him.
quote:
But I think you are saying that those "temple people" (BTW I find that a funny statement sort of like when you don't like a man and call him, ' that boy') ie the religious leaders of the day were messing up Torah and turning it into a religious exercise instead of matters of the heart like Yeshua was teaching. So since the Religious leaders of the day messed up Torah it is fair to say it needs to be thrown out. Is that what I hear you saying?
Yes to those that pertaining to what you eat. When you may light a fire. Taking a animal shedding it's blood and putting it on a alter for sins. Having an excape goat to send out into the wilderness. Even though I have been on the eight day, circumcised with the knife, I feel it's not a requirement to do.
Come know let's get reasonable on some of these matters. For one thing they were spoken as a shadow of things which were what the Messiah was to perform for once and for all time. In the rest of those laws are what is in detail of how to be civilized to other humans.
quote:
Lets take it to modern day. Those "church people" aka Religious leaders of the day are messing up the New Testiment, changing what it says to fit their fancy and making it "comfortable" for people so they will fill those pews. So since the Religious leaders of today are messing up the New Testiment it needs to be thrown out. Is that how your line of reasoning plays out if you follow it to the conclusion based on the conclusion of your first line of reasoning about Torah?
I don't think, nor have I wrote there are two different ideas in the library.
quote:
You have now decided the Prophets are arrogant because they - what - spoke the Word of G~d to the people and didn't take into account their (sinful) feelings?
I should have started another paragraph and wrote that the people of the day and even today. Have an arrogant attititude which did not listen to the prophets of old. The prophets would ask them to change their ways in which they treated people.
The children of Israel were in one way, thought they were serving their God. Yet they would take their children and sacrifice to another god. Which meant they couldn't even treat the children with respect.
They were one time slaves in a foreign land and complained about it. Yet they had the first temple built with slaves doing the labor.
Just because God chose them. They had a heck of a time doing what he said right.
One more thing I don't what it is but today I am having a hard time communicating.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 8:17:39 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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Good way to begin Shabbat!
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 9:51:08 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
But I think you are saying that those "temple people" (BTW I find that a funny statement sort of like when you don't like a man and call him, ' that boy') ie the religious leaders of the day were messing up Torah and turning it into a religious exercise instead of matters of the heart like Yeshua was teaching.
What is "messing up Torah " ?
Please give Biblical illustration.
Thanks...
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/11/2008 11:59:53 PM
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HisPriest
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
The law... handed down to Moses and given to Israel.
Christ said that not one part of the law would pass away, yet He also came to be the fulfillment of the law.
This thread is devoted to discussing the issues surrounding the commandments to keep the Law and how it applies to us today.
WARNING
Statements that those who are not keeping the sabbath law, dietary laws, and feast laws are in some way out of the will of God will be considered a violation of the Terms of Service.
Is true that the law was given to Moses, and for the first time was written in tables of stone with the finger of God; but this does not means that this was the first time that the law was given.
Adam and Eve have the great moral law in their hearts (in the image of God) they sin right?
"....sin is not imputed when there is no law" Rom. 5:13 God told them that if they eat of that tree, they will die, right? "Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death.."
What is sin? 1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Now, the law and many other things were given to the Israelites so they can give this laws to the whole world Exodus 19:6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
In another words; it was not just for them.
Jesus came to earth and He kept the laws; the word fulfill does not means destroy, He show us that we should keep His commandments, as a matter of fact, His word says:
If you love Me, keep My commandments Jn. 14:15
We need to obay the Commandments of God and not the commandments of men.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 1:15:41 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
Status: offline
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quote:
You seem have no idea what the Pharisees believed and taught concerning proselytism, so what makes you think you can understand the context of Acts 15?
If this remark were not so offensive, it would be quite funny.
It is you, my friend, who either (1) have no idea of what is in Acts 15 (even after being shown), (2) no idea of what the New Testament teaches, and (3) and no idea of why the Law of Moses is obsolete.
I will repeat that Acts 15 addresses the question of the applicability of the Law of Moses -- the Torah -- to Gentile believers, and the conclusion is that in essence it does not. At the same time the apostle Peter (the quintessential Jew) brings out a very significant truth -- that no Jew, past or present, could observe the Law of Moses perfectly and completely.
The Lord Jesus Christ -- God manifest in the flesh -- was the only Man who kept the Law perfectly. And then He took upon Himself the curse of the Law, so that we would be set free. Not only from the law of sin and death, but the Law of Moses itself.
Christ has a far better and higher Law -- the Law of Christ -- enshrined in His New Commandment. That is the Law under which Christians are free to love and serve God and others by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said "Without me ye can do NOTHING".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 1:49:25 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 140
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
You seem have no idea what the Pharisees believed and taught concerning proselytism, so what makes you think you can understand the context of Acts 15?
If this remark were not so offensive, it would be quite funny.
Many people were offended by our Master and His disciples.
Now, if you know about the Pharisaical ideas concerning proselytism I hope you'll prove it. I'll ask you a very specific question for you and we'll see if you can answer it:
What exactly is the process the Pharisees would take a Gentile through who wanted to become a Jew back in the First Century? (HINT: If you look in that topic I referenced in my previous post you'll find the answer)
< Message edited by iSERVEaJEW -- 4/12/2008 1:55:31 AM >
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 8:06:22 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisPriest
Is true that the law was given to Moses, and for the first time was written in tables of stone with the finger of God; but this does not means that this was the first time that the law was given.
Welcome...not sure about the entire post, but-
This is vitally important what you reference here;
that is written by the finger of God (at Sinai).
God Himself delivered The Law directly to the people.
Out in the barren wilderness, the desert congregation
was exposed to earthquake, smoke, trumpetblast,
as the severity of The Law was manifest to them.
The people could not endure the confrontation !
Even Moses was afraid, was he not ? Hmmm...
As for Mosaic customs and rituals.......
These "other laws" that are so weighty.......are ?
What is # 11.......# 99.......#237.......# 600.......?
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 8:30:39 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
Here's a verse to chew.
I have a comparison in various versions so you won't think I chose a fav. Interesting - the word LAW is nomos in Greek which is the same word used in the scriptures y'all love to use to prove that the law is kaput.
Again.......no one has said law is "kaput".
Why do you keep saying that ?
No one has said the laws of God are unholy.
No one has said to abandon 10 Commandments.
Rather, we are unable to keep anfd fulfill the law.
We are unable to sustain the punishment of breaking
the laws of God since we lack power of indestructible life.
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 8:34:19 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
But I think you are saying that those "temple people" (BTW I find that a funny statement sort of like when you don't like a man and call him, ' that boy') ie the religious leaders of the day were messing up Torah and turning it into a religious exercise instead of matters of the heart like Yeshua was teaching. So since the Religious leaders of the day messed up Torah it is fair to say it needs to be thrown out. Is that what I hear you saying?
Lets take it to modern day. Those "church people" aka Religious leaders of the day are messing up the New Testiment, changing what it says to fit their fancy and making it "comfortable" for people so they will fill those pews. So since the Religious leaders of today are messing up the New Testiment it needs to be thrown out.
Who said this.......a person or particular denomination ?
Making it "COMFORTABLE" menas what exactly ?
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 9:08:54 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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TSAJ,
With all respect, I have a favor.......
Can you please try and answer some posts ?
It is obvious you study and search The Scriptures,
and that you possess wisdom and knowledge.
thanks from your brother in Christ Jesus,
manna
I sincerely would like to hear from you, other than:
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
It isn't my fault if you think you can interpret an event that happened nearly 2,000 years ago WITHOUT a proper understanding of Rabbinic theology. You seem have no idea what the Pharisees believed and taught concerning proselytism, so what makes you think you can understand the context of Acts 15?
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
In the mean time, you might appreciate some self-study on the matter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
If you respected Acts more perhaps you'd understand why you're wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
If you "don't get it" yet, then reread 1 John 5:2-3
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I think you've been lied to about the Torah. Please, wake up!
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
You really need to learn from some teachers who understand Rabbinic theology to understand the writings of the Apostles better.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
If you aren't going to respect me enough to answer a simple question then please, go away.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 9:22:27 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4322
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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Arthur W. Pink said that Judaism was
the kindergarten of the church.......
What did he mean ?
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 2:30:15 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Arthur W. Pink said that Judaism was the kindergarten of the church.......
What did he mean ?
What he meant was:
1. That God is absolutely holy and righteous.
2. That all men are sinners, and that the Law establishes our sinfulness.
3. That God demands perfect obedience to the Law.
4. That no man can observe the Law perfectly.
5. That sinful man can only approach a holy God through the blood of an innocent sacrifice.
6. That no man can be justified by the works of the Law.
7. That God imputes His righteousness to those who believe Him and believe the Gospel.
Thus the Law is our "schoolmaster" or "tutor" or "kindergarden teacher" to show us that all we can do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved by grace through faith in His perfection and His perfect finsihed work at the Cross.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/12/2008 3:11:39 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
But I think you are saying that those "temple people" (BTW I find that a funny statement sort of like when you don't like a man and call him, ' that boy') ie the religious leaders of the day were messing up Torah and turning it into a religious exercise instead of matters of the heart like Yeshua was teaching.
What is "messing up Torah " ?
Please give Biblical illustration.
Thanks...
Greetings,
Here is what you are looking for
19 Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. 21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews." ' "
22 Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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Paul was not talking about Gentiles in that passage.
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