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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 11:27:29 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
it was those lousy Germany Jews who allowed a nut like Hitler to gain power in the first place. If they would have stop him, then the gas chambers would have been avoided.
This is the very same problem with our government today.
If the truly God-fearing people would stop voting their pocket books
and vote for truly righteous people, we wouldn't be in the mess we're
in now. And like Germany, we haven't seen anything yet.
Thank YHWH for His Grace.
LG,
Thanks for the heads up.
I hadn't kept track. lol.
So much going on getting ready for Pesach.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:12:11 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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To you I write this; " Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God- or rather known by God- how is it turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing specials days and months and seasons and years! I fear for I have wasted my efforts on you.
I plead with you brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you You have done me no wrong. As you know it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead you welcomed me as if I was an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. What has happen to your joy? Have I now become an enemy by telling you the truth? those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us. so that you maybe zealous for them. It is fine to be zealous provided that the purpose is good and to be so always and not just when I am with you.
My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you. Tell me you who want be under the law, are not aware what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and another by the free woman His son was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as result of a promise. Galatians 4:8-23
I don't know but I rather be under a promise than slavery.
To one's remark that they have given up shrimp. That they no longer have drug issues thats great. But they have found that in shrimp and others like it has omega three in it which can be good in moderation.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:20:22 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
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From: Northern CA
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(Edited to remove reference to a post that has been edited for TOS 9)
quote:
quote: ezra
You started out by refusing to accept the plain Bible truth that Israel never believed God. And even after receiving the Scriptures to support that, you continue to dodge this fundamental truth about Israel. They had 1,500 years to "get it right" but failed every time, especially in condemning their Messiah to be crucified.
Ezra you seem to have it all figured out.
Since you adhere to Replacement Theology I guess you know the fate of the Israelis and all Jews around the world in the Diaspora.
Glad the cross gave us all (except the Jews of course) grace.
I can see why you don't need any of the Torah (laws). You have grace and love.
< Message edited by Kath -- 4/17/2008 4:53:50 PM >
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:40:35 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
To one's remark that they have given up shrimp. That they no longer have drug issues thats great. But they have found that in shrimp and others like it has omega three in it which can be good in moderation.
omega 3 can be found in a lot of other places.
That doesn't make shrimp any cleaner than 3,000 years ago. lol.
I never ate meat, don't eat meat, and won't eat meat.
I'm not an advent, don't do it for religious reasons, I
just do not like meat since birth. I spit that nasty baby food out. lol.
So, I find omega 3 in lots of places.
I went to a detox session and they told me I was the cleanest man
they had ever tested. Still got lots of physical problems, but there
were no toxins and parasites that my wife had who does eat meat.
There were toxins that showed up from many other sources.
But to stick to the topic, the Laws of God have never been made void.
God has never lied to us, we just misunderstand many of the things He
has told us. I would challenge anyone to study the first five books of
their Bible without the preconceptions and then go back to what we
use against each other out of the NT.
Want to really know what Jesus taught, what Paul taught?
They taught straight out of the Torah. The Bereans searched the
Torah to see if the way Paul explained it was true or not. They
didn't check his first-edition copy of Romans hot off the press. lol.
We really do need to let all of us on both sides of the issue allow the
Holy Spirit to LEAD us into all truth. Our personal inspirations doesn't
make something a truth. The Ruach HaKodesh only LEADS us to the truth.
We can accept it for what it really says and "means" or we can twist it to
conform to preconceived ideas.
I think most on here are truly Bible scholars.
But, like our politics, we all look from different angles and through different glasses.
I'm writing a haggadah from scratch to purge the leaven out of the ceremony here,
so I'm learning a lot of neat details. Not to mention rethinking my own positions on
a lot of things. I really like the way the Word is "living."
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 4/16/2008 1:49:05 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:48:04 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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Todah rabah! Thank you very much.
This is the mentality I deal with on a regular basis. This is why most Jews who are not yet believers don't want anything to do with Christians. It is very sad for those of us who want so much to share the love of Messiah Yeshua and sadder for those who go to their graves still waiting for their Messiah. Which BTW is what so many many Jews are praying for at the Western Wall morning, noon and night.
< Message edited by Anisavta -- 4/16/2008 2:09:48 PM >
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:50:54 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
Todah rabah! Thank you very much.
I kinda wonder how I would fare with some people in a dark alley don't you know... 
I never attack a granny.
Here we have "make my day" laws with guns. lol.
And that maze.........whew!
Not to mention the mountain fighters like Granny Clampett. lol.
I would loan you a flashlight and then run..................lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 1:57:24 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12137
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quote:
I guess you know the fate of the Israelis and all Jews around the world in the Diaspora
Marsha, what is your opinion of the fate of unbelieving Jews and Israelis? Just curious.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/16/2008 6:45:32 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2230
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I would challenge anyone to study the first five books of
their Bible without the preconceptions and then go back to what we
use against each other out of the NT.
I already have....the first 5 books speak of salvation, whereby the Jews are saved, but had no peace, because they did not say....blessed is "he who comes" in the name of """ADONI!
Christians are "only saved" but by Peace,
as Jesus said, My Shalom I leave you,
So it was the ……Shalom which was taken away from the Jew, not their salvation, because salvation is of the Jews…and for that reason salvation “came” to the gentiles, as mentioned in Romans 11.
This is what the Church doesn't seem to grasp. 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:01:35 AM
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graftedintoo
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From: Indiana
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There are many scriptures that directly answer this question. I think this one is the most clear.
Romans 13:9
The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
If you love your neighbor, you will not commit adultery with his wife, you will not murder him, steal from him or cover what he has.
The answer is one word - LOVE.
God IS love.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:31:37 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
Ezra you seem to have it all figured out.
We have Scripture so that we all can have it all figured out.
quote:
Since you adhere to Replacement Theology I guess you know the fate of the Israelis and all Jews around the world in the Diaspora.
I don't believe I have said anything to suggest that I adhere to Replacement Theology. And I certainly have no use for those who would go about attempting to "exterminate" the Jews. That philosophy is Satanic, and those who hate Jews simply because they are Jews are controlled by Satan. I would go so far as to say that Islam is Satanic.
The Church did not replace Israel, and God has a plan for the nation of Israel which will include not only severe judgment, but also redemption and restoration. God's promises to the Hebrew patriarchs have not been withdrawn or nullified, in spite of the disobedience of Israel. Replacement Theology is for those who cannot rightly distinguish between "the Jew, the Gentile, and the Church of God".
The problem is that the Millenium hasn't arrived, and the Tribulation -- "the time of Jacob's trouble" -- is around the corner. In the meantime, God is establishing His Church -- WHERE THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE. That is why the Law of Moses is null and void.
quote:
Glad the cross gave us all (except the Jews of course) grace.
Well, if some Jews prefer Moses even after the Cross, that's their choice. Other Jews are simply Hebrew Christians who do not revert to Moses. Under grace, we are no longer under "the schoolmaster" who brings us to Christ.
quote:
I can see why you don't need any of the Torah (laws). You have grace and love.
That's it in a nutshell. "For the Law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1:17).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 12:41:37 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
But this fundamental truth about Israel is that Paul was speaking of the branches, not the root, which the Christians branches can aslo be broken off, and Israel grafted back into thier own tree.
LG:
The root is not the nation of Israel, but Christ Himself, "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, THE ROOT OF DAVID" (Rev. 5:5) as well as "The BRANCH" (Zech.7:12).
Jesus said, "I am the Vine, ye are the branches. Without me ye can do nothing". So only the believing remnant of Israel can be grafted back. Unbelieving Jews have no part in this Vine and Olive Tree. They have been "broken off" and "cast off".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 1:38:07 AM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
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quote:
That is why the Law of Moses is null and void.
Well, if some Jews prefer Moses even after the Cross, that's their choice. Other Jews are simply Hebrew Christians who do not revert to Moses. Under grace, we are no longer under "the schoolmaster" who brings us to Christ.
So if I am understanding you correct in order for me to not be part of the tribulation as a Jew who believes in Yeshua but is Torah observant I have to give up the Torah.
I don't have to concern myself with the 10 Commandments
I can't observe Sabbath on Saturday but instead I have to worship on Sunday
I must give up the Feasts
I must deny being a Jew and must now call myself a "Hebrew Christian"
I can't go to a synagogue but only a church
I must give up eating kosher
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 6:03:43 AM
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Ad7
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From: Australia
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In Romans 11:16 the reference to firstfruits and root are speaking of Abraham and the Patriarchs, not Jesus.
If the firstfruit (Abraham) be holy, the lump (Israel) is also holy; and if the root (Abraham) be holy, so are the branches (Israel).
_____________________________
The more G-d reveals, the more i realise how much remains hidden!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 8:48:56 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anisavta
So if I am understanding you correct in order for me to not be part of the tribulation as a Jew who believes in Yeshua but is Torah observant I have to give up the Torah.
Marsha:
You are a Torah observant Christian, even though that sounds like and oxymoron. There were many such immediately after Pentecost and before 70 A.D. But you have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore you are a part of His Body -- the Church. God does not see you as a "Jew" but as a child of God. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Church.
Some believe that the Tribulation is not an expression of God's wrath, but it is, and you are not subject to His wrath. Neither is any believer. Therefore you will not face the Tribulation, which is for unbelieving Israel. The Church will be taken out by Christ before the Tribulation.
quote:
I don't have to concern myself with the 10 Commandments
I can't observe Sabbath on Saturday but instead I have to worship on Sunday
I must give up the Feasts
I must deny being a Jew and must now call myself a "Hebrew Christian"
I can't go to a synagogue but only a church
I must give up eating kosher
Paul was a Hebrew Christian who taught -- by Divine inspiration -- that all these are "shadows". The reality is Christ. Why go after the shadows when we have the reality? According to what Paul says in Philippians chapter 3, he gave up his "Jewishness" for "the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 9:00:05 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad7
In Romans 11:16 the reference to firstfruits and root are speaking of Abraham and the Patriarchs, not Jesus.
If the firstfruit (Abraham) be holy, the lump (Israel) is also holy; and if the root (Abraham) be holy, so are the branches (Israel).
Abraham was not the firstfruit, since he is never called that. However, Christ is called the firstfruits of them that slept, a reference to His resurrection.
Any holiness which Abraham had was imputed. It was Christ's holiness and righteousness imputed to him because He believed God (Rom. 4:1-25). The only reason Christians are righteous is because they are "in" Christ. He is the Vine, we are the branches, and without Him we can do nothing.
Don't forget that John the Baptizer told the Jews who came to him that if God wished He could raise up "children unto Abraham" from the stones along the banks of the Jordan. So a physical relationship to Abraham means less to God than repentance and faith. See Rom. 2:25-29.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/17/2008 9:06:16 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 9:51:11 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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quote:
Want to really know what Jesus taught, what Paul taught?
They taught straight out of the Torah. The Bereans searched the
Torah to see if the way Paul explained it was true or not. They
didn't check his first-edition copy of Romans hot off the press. lol.
Woe them horses when you write that. They quoted out of the whole library. Not just the first five books were used. In fact in Galatians Paul quotes from Isaiah 54:1.
You can observe the extra rules of the torah all you want. Yet as I wrote that Paul said "I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you". Not rules, but a Spirit of Messiah inside of us. Which would mean to even follow this type of life; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness faithfulness, and self control. Against such things are no law.
Please what has some these laws which are on the books are we to keep and the others to show us of the Messiah?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 10:05:22 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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Back to the responce of my Uncle who was a devoted Jew who on the seven day you would not catch him dioing anthing nor did he have he's employes work that day.
But one more story about him was that he was going to the synagogue, until they told him that they were going to charge him for his seat in there. He told them" I find it hard that I would need to learn of God and be charge for that service". I do not know if it was his sarcasim or what. But he told my dad who was gentile and had a little jewish blood in him. This story they would have to pay a high price to have the best seat in the synagogue.
Also when I heard My Uncle say those words about the German Jews I was at a lose for words and so was my Dad. And could not believe that he felt very little sympathy to them. He being a full blooded Jew.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 1:25:05 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness faithfulness, and self control. Against such things are no law.
Please what has some these laws which are on the books are we to keep and the others to show us of the Messiah?
The "laws" that were against us were done away with.
When we truly love God with all our might, and love each other, we fulfill the Law.
I truly appreciate your concern, but not to worry. I know the difference.
I have not returned to the elements. But I prefer the holidays God instituted over
the holidays Satan instituted, i.e., X-mas, Ishtar, Halloween, etc.
It's more of an abomination to practice the customs
of Babylon than to learn from the Torah [God's instructions].
quote:
But one more story about him was that he was going to the synagogue, until they told him that they were going to charge him for his seat in there.
That was also a practice in the Presbyterian church.
I loved the movie "Life With Father."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 1:27:54 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
So if I am understanding you correct in order for me to not be part of the tribulation as a Jew who believes in Yeshua but is Torah observant I have to give up the Torah.
I don't have to concern myself with the 10 Commandments
I can't observe Sabbath on Saturday but instead I have to worship on Sunday
I must give up the Feasts
I must deny being a Jew and must now call myself a "Hebrew Christian"
I can't go to a synagogue but only a church
I must give up eating kosher
Hi Granny,
If you do all that then we can welcome you into the "First Church of Constantine the First." LOL.
Or should I say, Constantine's Mommy?
She dictated where the memorials were to be {which were all in the wrong place} lol.
Check any Bible map for Sinai.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 2:10:46 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
Ezra:
Some believe that the Tribulation is not an expression of God's wrath, but it is, and you are not subject to His wrath. Neither is any believer. Therefore you will not face the Tribulation, which is for unbelieving Israel. The Church will be taken out by Christ before the Tribulation.
Would you have told this to the many German christians, who also died in the gas chambers, had you lived in Germany in the 1930's.
I'm interested in what you make of this?
Romans 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 2:44:11 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1709
Status: offline
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quote:
Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
How then do Christians uphold the Law? By obeying the Law of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. That it is not consistently obeyed is a separate issue.
The Ten Commandments are encapsulated in the two Greatest Commmandments, and these two are summed up in "the New Commandment" of Christ -- we are to love God and others as Christ loves them.
This is the Law of Christ, which takes the Ten Commandments to their highest level. 10 = 2 = 1 means we uphold the Law.
All the rest is types and "shadows".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 3:30:07 PM
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Anisavta
Posts: 144
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Northern CA
Status: offline
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quote:
Marsha:
You are a Torah observant Christian, even though that sounds like and oxymoron. There were many such immediately after Pentecost and before 70 A.D. But you have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore you are a part of His Body -- the Church. God does not see you as a "Jew" but as a child of God. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Church.
Some believe that the Tribulation is not an expression of God's wrath, but it is, and you are not subject to His wrath. Neither is any believer. Therefore you will not face the Tribulation, which is for unbelieving Israel. The Church will be taken out by Christ before the Tribulation.
quote:
I don't have to concern myself with the 10 Commandments
I can't observe Sabbath on Saturday but instead I have to worship on Sunday
I must give up the Feasts
I must deny being a Jew and must now call myself a "Hebrew Christian"
I can't go to a synagogue but only a church
I must give up eating kosher
Paul was a Hebrew Christian who taught -- by Divine inspiration -- that all these are "shadows". The reality is Christ. Why go after the shadows when we have the reality? According to what Paul says in Philippians chapter 3, he gave up his "Jewishness" for "the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".
This is where you are wrong Ezra. I am a Jew by blood just as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Jews by blood. Just as King David is a Jew by blood.
When these Patriarchs came into the Presence of YHVH did they recieve the announcement, "You are no longer a Jew. You are now a Christian"?
What is your definition of "Church"?
According to the verse you use about no Jew or Gentile -
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him.
Rom 10:13 For everyone, "whoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Let's pretend that this was written to 1st Century Jews and Gentiles.
When Yeshua came he said -
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So before the Gospel was opened up to Gentiles they were lost. Period! No salvation available.
But then Yeshua finished the avodah (work) when He died and was resurrected so now BOTH Jew and Gentile could be saved thru Yeshua (salvation).
So here the Gentiles are hearing that in Messiah they also can be saved because now in G~d's economy there is neither Jew nor Gentile as far as SALVATION the forgiveness and covering of sin is concerned.
Let's look at the other verse about unisex, uniethnic and uniwork.
Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
According to this not only am I not a Jew or a Gentile - I am neither a man nor a woman.
So since I can't do Jew things anymore according to this verse, I can't do woman things either. So I guess I can't wear dresses, or makeup or go into the ladies room at my synagogue. I am a nutered person! So that is why we have a unisex bathroom at shul!!
_____________________________
Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!
B'rachot,
Marsha
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