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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 11:10:53 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1880
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
I know someone asked how do we observe Sabbath? ......
Thank you , but no, I wasn’t asking about sabbath - people can celebrate it any way they see fit.If the described in your post is what you prefer and like- sure, God help you .
I know everything there is to know about Sabbath keeping in every possible level of strictness, experientially :) I know so much actually about the topic I could write the book,titled something like "The Least Labor Intensive Ways of obeying Torah and celebrating Feasts without losing a convincing appearance of piousness" when I get some time and inspiration
Especially kashrut and other food chapters are going to be exiting!
I like the whole deal of supervision of food preparation/wine making – Sponge, this one is for you to support your current posts - A Rabbi looking over the process adds nothing to the quality of the food these days, there are government regulations in place now and being afraid of fines is what keeps all the butchers etc. to obey them.
If I was a man I would get into that sweet racket ! That’s a cushy job , do nothing just watch and look important. hey Spongie.. interested in a career change, wanna be an orthodox rabbi? Just don’t end up in rehab from all the free booze like my mom’s uncle.. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 11:24:34 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1880
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Spirit of Love will bind us all together. These perceived adherence to the "letter" can divide us.
We are all products of our past. As in, what we have been taught develops our belief system up to this point.
Hopefully, we all have the capability of growing each day and moving where YHWH determines for us to be.
excellelent points her eand in the post as a whole , Lap.
Yes, I knew you werent quite mainstream modern messianic but rather more heavy on studying and less on glitzy, heavily overproduced but cheesy Feasts, Unnnecessary Hebraisms and Holidays stuff..
You, i believe, mentioned that you didnt like the: "Instead-of-Hitting-the-mall-for-Christmas and-do-churchy-stuff-like-pagan-protestants-i-will-do the same-shopping- but-for-Hannakah-Mess.Congregation- which-makes-God -love-me-and -is- undeniably-better" crowd.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 12:37:21 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3158
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Spirit of Love will bind us all together. These perceived adherence to the "letter" can divide us.
We are all products of our past. As in, what we have been taught develops our belief system up to this point.
Hopefully, we all have the capability of growing each day and moving where YHWH determines for us to be.
excellelent points her eand in the post as a whole , Lap.
Yes, I knew you werent quite mainstream modern messianic but rather more heavy on studying and less on glitzy, heavily overproduced but cheesy Feasts, Unnnecessary Hebraisms and Holidays stuff..
You, i believe, mentioned that you didnt like the: "Instead-of-Hitting-the-mall-for-Christmas and-do-churchy-stuff-like-pagan-protestants-i-will-do the same-shopping- but-for-Hannakah-Mess.Congregation- which-makes-God -love-me-and -is- undeniably-better" crowd.
I think we're on the same page? LOL.
but being born a "hermit" makes it hard either direction.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 5:13:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 783
Joined: 11/30/2007
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O.K, I'm going to take a stab at this. I recall state that the Law of the Spirit of life is Torah. I contended that we should follow the Torah because has not changed. The Laws and Feasts were given for our instruction in doctrine and moral conduct. I Tim. 3:15-17. The feasts were not only for worship and commorating events that happen, they also serve as rehearsels for events to come. In Lev. 23, two hebrew words stand out, one is miqra and the other is moedim. Miqra means convocations, gatherings, REHEARSALS... Moedim means appointed times, seasons etc.
Key events happened in history on these appointed times. Redemptive acts. We see that in Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, the counting of the omer leading up to Pentecost. We see the trial, death, burial, resurrection, ascension and giving of the Holy Spirit during these Feast times. Doing a little scripture search, we can ascertain the time of Christ's birth on or during Tabernacles. John the Baptist, who prepared the way of the LORD ( the "WAY" is referred to Torah) by preaching repentance from dead works, was born during Passover.
Heck, even Irael's 6-day war leading to her statehood was during the season of the counting of the omer!
Paul tells us in I Corinthians 5:6-8, to keep the Feast, alluding to Passover (Unleavened Bread...) Paul, when speaking to gentile brethren reference Jesus as our First Fruits.
Some of our very astute Jewish brothers in Judaism are looking for the Messiah. I heard of one rabbi say that you know Messiah has come when you see the gentiles observing Torah. Messiah was supposed to elevate Torah or take it to another level and Jesus certainly did this. Read the Beattitudes in Matt. 5
End-time events in Revelation and Daniel and Zechariah become more understandable when you have a grasp of the Feast. I wish I had a Bible in front me right know.
Do I feel any closer to God than before I followed Torah? Honestly, I do! Do I feel any more saved? No. The Bible makes more sense today than it has ever!
When Messiah says in Matthew (paraphrase), "Many will say in that day,'Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out devils and do wonderful (miraclous and good works) in that day...depart from me you that work iniquity( which means lawlessness Torahlessness, I believe Matthew would have understood lawlessness to be to Torahlessness as Torah was the only law of the Jews)
The only people who fit that description above is Christians. Where as they are saved, they will not be permitted to entering to the city. Rev. 21.
Revelation speaks those who keep that commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ and the one who overcome. Acts 17?? shows us Paul defending himself against accusations that he walk contrary to the Torah of our Bible.
Acts 21 shows us Paul participating in the Nazarites vow including the appropiate animal sacrifice according to Numbers. We don't offer today because there is no physical Temple or operation levitical priesthood.
Acts 13,17, & 18 shows us Paul keeping Sabbath. It was his custom or habit to do so.
I Corinthian 5:8 speaks of Passover and the deeper spiritual significance behind it.
Acts 20 around 15 or 16, Paul keeps Pentecost.
Ephesians 6:1 we see can see the teachings of Proverbs 6:20 and 23:22
We see the Torah (some of the 10 Commandments) in Ephesians 6:2, Romans 13:8-11
I Tim. 1:8-11 speaks of the the Torah as "sound doctrine"
II Tim. 3, when referring to Jannes and Jambres, Paul speaks of them as "resisting the truth" which is a reference to the Torah.
II Tim where it tells us to study to show outselves approved...rightly dividing the "word of Truth." The only scriptures they had then was the TaNaKH.
This is just Paul!! Time is leaving me but we are told to "be holy because God is holy" by Peter, who quoted Leviticus. John spoke of those who practice sin, practices lawlessness (transgression of Torah- anomia greek word 458) I can give further examples. It's all over the NT!
There's a famous slogan, WWJD. We can see Jesus keeping Sabbath, Feasts, eating Kosher (maybe not the way the Pharisees did with the Rabbinical Law of the Talmud and Mishna) but definitely the Bible's way.
This is condensed rather rushed response to your tough questions.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 5/14/2008 5:26:07 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 5:26:38 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 948
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
SpongeBlog:
I follow the new way of relating to God through a changed character by the Holy Spirit, not the written code. Paul clearly makes a distinction between the two.
So, what do you do and why? For example, christmas, easter, communion, confession etc.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 9:33:06 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1140
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
SpongeBlog:
I follow the new way of relating to God through a changed character by the Holy Spirit, not the written code. Paul clearly makes a distinction between the two.
So, what do you do and why? For example, christmas, easter, communion, confession etc.
Outside of baptism (been there, done that), communion, and meeting with my brothers and sisters (here, and in Church), I guess I don't do any formal external worship. And as you can guess, my Church is open on Easter and Christmas. But I go because I want to go to Church. I don't sense any mystic significance in Easter or Christmas or any other day of the week or year. But I am now aware of the significance of the early Church desiring to keep the commemoration of Christ's resurrection on the day of the week that it occurred, thus the change to Sundays. And as I further understand, the Catholics made it a matter of Catholic law (take that matter up with them. I'm not purposely conforming myself to Catholic Church law). I don't care what day of the week the Church wants to meet. It has no significance anymore.
This really is all about what mindset you have. Do you go to Church to "spur one another on toward love and good deeds" (Heb. 10:24, just before the famous 'do not forsake the gathering of yourselves' passage), and build each other up with our various gifts, or do you go to Church to fulfill some mystic purpose concerning dates and seasons?
When your reasons for going to Church are motivated by the purposes of the Spirit and not according to the purposes stipulated by the law, then you can see how Christ has brought us away from the literal written word of the law and into the Spirit and the greater purpose it represents.
Do you grasp what I'm saying? The Church can meet together and perform it's various traditions and procedures and methods of worship because that's what God wants us to do. Or we can meet together because we want to build each other up into the image of Christ. The former represents relating to God through a sense of law. The latter represents relating to God through the Spirit. Two vastly different ways of relating to God that may or may not look the same on the outside.
It's true. This is all about mindset. We need to be careful we have the right mindset. I choose the mindset of Christ, the mindset that guides us into the internal qualities of Christ-like character (the true worship God requires), not the mindset of law that guides us into external methods and procedures for worship.
Circumcision was the collective representation of all the old laws of external worship. This is what Paul tells us about the formerly mandated laws of external worship:
"Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule" J(Galatians 6:15-16)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6)
Does the mindset you embrace move you to follow external commands for worship, or does the mindset you embrace move you towards the qualities of Christ (peace, joy, gentleness, long-suffering...)? The New Covenant makes it clear which one God wants us to have now. Worship is now 'in Spirit and in Truth', meaning sincerely from the heart according to the true way God says we are to worship Him. The laws of worship are now fulfilled in the new way of the Spirit within a man, not externally in the old way of the law.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 9:35:02 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 660
Joined: 4/4/2006
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I must be in the land of the lost. How does the story in Exodus go? The story starts with a baby floating down the Nile river and Pharoah's daughter sees him and saves his life from being killed because her old man was on a path to kill the first male child born of an Israelite.
After awhile Moses kills an Egyptain runs into the desert and starts talking to a burning bush. What he hears is that the God of his fore fathers, has heard the people crying out because of their oppersion. So he is going to send Moses who says he can't talk. Back to Pharoah to let God people go. That the 430 years is over and something else is going to take place. Well Pharoah keep saying no-no you can't take my free labor away. You'll ruin the economey and well have a great depresssion.
Well you know that after that many signs and wonders were done. The children of Israel seeing all of this happening to Egypt. In fact the last straw was when the Egyptian army was going after them in desert and they came to some water and God divided the water in two. So that they could go on dry land. Once they got to the other side the army of Egypt was in the middle of the river or lake. But the water came back over them and drown them.
The Children of Israel saw all of these things happen and you know what came out of their mouth next. I know cross walk won't have me use it but. I'm listening to one right now which if I didn't live in the city I 'd kill it.
So if they would have shown God any form of love and gratude for what he had done for them. You know what may have happen? No Laws given at a mountain. But by the time they got there. God was going to put them out of their miser and start off with Moses and make another nation. At least he would have not lied to Abraham,Issace and Jacob.
So If you think that those laws get you closer to the one who made you. You are sadly mistaken. Because it wasn't God intention to give a bunch of rules. Rules are for people who can't obey in the beginning. Showing love or anything else.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:29:56 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3158
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
I must be in the land of the lost.
LOL.
and no comment on your inaccuracies of the Exodus account. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:33:19 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3158
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
O.K, I'm going to take a stab at this. I recall state that the Law of the Spirit of life is Torah. I contended that we should follow the Torah because has not changed. The Laws and Feasts were given for our instruction in doctrine and moral conduct. I Tim. 3:15-17. The feasts were not only for worship and commorating events that happen, they also serve as rehearsels for events to come. In Lev. 23, two hebrew words stand out, one is miqra and the other is moedim. Miqra means convocations, gatherings, REHEARSALS... Moedim means appointed times, seasons etc.
Key events happened in history on these appointed times. Redemptive acts. We see that in Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, the counting of the omer leading up to Pentecost. We see the trial, death, burial, resurrection, ascension and giving of the Holy Spirit during these Feast times. Doing a little scripture search, we can ascertain the time of Christ's birth on or during Tabernacles. John the Baptist, who prepared the way of the LORD ( the "WAY" is referred to Torah) by preaching repentance from dead works, was born during Passover.
Heck, even Irael's 6-day war leading to her statehood was during the season of the counting of the omer!
Paul tells us in I Corinthians 5:6-8, to keep the Feast, alluding to Passover (Unleavened Bread...) Paul, when speaking to gentile brethren reference Jesus as our First Fruits.
Some of our very astute Jewish brothers in Judaism are looking for the Messiah. I heard of one rabbi say that you know Messiah has come when you see the gentiles observing Torah. Messiah was supposed to elevate Torah or take it to another level and Jesus certainly did this. Read the Beattitudes in Matt. 5
End-time events in Revelation and Daniel and Zechariah become more understandable when you have a grasp of the Feast. I wish I had a Bible in front me right know.
Do I feel any closer to God than before I followed Torah? Honestly, I do! Do I feel any more saved? No. The Bible makes more sense today than it has ever!
When Messiah says in Matthew (paraphrase), "Many will say in that day,'Lord have we not prophesied in your name, cast out devils and do wonderful (miraclous and good works) in that day...depart from me you that work iniquity( which means lawlessness Torahlessness, I believe Matthew would have understood lawlessness to be to Torahlessness as Torah was the only law of the Jews)
The only people who fit that description above is Christians. Where as they are saved, they will not be permitted to entering to the city. Rev. 21.
Revelation speaks those who keep that commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ and the one who overcome. Acts 17?? shows us Paul defending himself against accusations that he walk contrary to the Torah of our Bible.
Acts 21 shows us Paul participating in the Nazarites vow including the appropiate animal sacrifice according to Numbers. We don't offer today because there is no physical Temple or operation levitical priesthood.
Acts 13,17, & 18 shows us Paul keeping Sabbath. It was his custom or habit to do so.
I Corinthian 5:8 speaks of Passover and the deeper spiritual significance behind it.
Acts 20 around 15 or 16, Paul keeps Pentecost.
Ephesians 6:1 we see can see the teachings of Proverbs 6:20 and 23:22
We see the Torah (some of the 10 Commandments) in Ephesians 6:2, Romans 13:8-11
I Tim. 1:8-11 speaks of the the Torah as "sound doctrine"
II Tim. 3, when referring to Jannes and Jambres, Paul speaks of them as "resisting the truth" which is a reference to the Torah.
II Tim where it tells us to study to show outselves approved...rightly dividing the "word of Truth." The only scriptures they had then was the TaNaKH.
This is just Paul!! Time is leaving me but we are told to "be holy because God is holy" by Peter, who quoted Leviticus. John spoke of those who practice sin, practices lawlessness (transgression of Torah- anomia greek word 458) I can give further examples. It's all over the NT!
There's a famous slogan, WWJD. We can see Jesus keeping Sabbath, Feasts, eating Kosher (maybe not the way the Pharisees did with the Rabbinical Law of the Talmud and Mishna) but definitely the Bible's way.
This is condensed rather rushed response to your tough questions.
Pretty good from memory. lol.
WWJD? That was a multi-million dollar marketing idea.
I prefer DWJD! Do What Jesus Did!
Keep Sabbath, teach on Sabbath, eat Kosher, keep the feasts, help all
along the road, hide out from the religious, carry our own cross, etc.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:52:55 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 948
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
SpongeBlog:
Does the mindset you embrace move you to follow external commands for worship, or does the mindset you embrace move you towards the qualities of Christ (peace, joy, gentleness, long-suffering...)? The New Covenant makes it clear which one God wants us to have now. Worship is now 'in Spirit and in Truth', meaning sincerely from the heart according to the true way God says we are to worship Him. The laws of worship are now fulfilled in the new way of the Spirit within a man, not externally in the old way of the law.
Rather than reprint your entire post, I just copied you conclusion. My observations can be applied to your justifications.
I agree with you in this with the exception that I believe that this is how it has always been. The covenant has never been in effect when it has merely been observed outwordly, the way many of us have ignorantly done it in the past(our old practice). It must be internalized, written on our hearts so we can observe it in spirit and in truth(our new practice). Now, in that I think we have the same mindset.
The difference in practice is this, if we are to observe the covenant "according to the true way God says we are to worship Him." Should we do what Abba(Daddy) tells us to do. Or what we decide we should do for Him. For example, Dad says, "Take out the garbage." and we open the door so the house doesn't stink. Doesn't this fullfill the spirit of what he said? Yes, in a way, but as we will soon find out not Dad's way. Of course, Dad will laugh and shake his head the first time we do this, but after a while he might get a little testy. So, should we worship on Shabbat as He commanded, or on the first day of the week because we think that is when He rose from the dead, even though there is no command to do so?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 7:38:41 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 660
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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Lapidoth,
O great one you kinda insulated me with your writings.
I do not need a bunch of laws or rules to govern my life. To obey my God and know his ways again I don't need those rules either. I feel sorry for you that haven't found out what true love is. I love my wife and I don't have to, have one rule told to me on how to treat her because of the law of love factor.
The children of Israel did not love God that is why they received the laws at Mount Sinia. But that's right. Man because he is so stupid knows how to love another human being.
It's funny that we can go through seventy chapters in the story before we get hear mention of the first laws.
And the first ten are so hard that it's easier to have a bunch of feastive meals to make God happy with us.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 7:39:46 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1140
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I agree with you in this with the exception that I believe that this is how it has always been. The covenant has never been in effect when it has merely been observed outwordly, the way many of us have ignorantly done it in the past(our old practice). It must be internalized, written on our hearts so we can observe it in spirit and in truth(our new practice). Now, in that I think we have the same mindset.
This is hitting at the crux of the matter that I've been trying to articulate. The new way doesn't resemble the old way but does in fact fulfill the intent and purpose of the old way. I've given examples we can all agree on that prove the legitimacy of the new spiritual way replacing the old literal way. These serve as precedants on which we can understand all the laws of external worship in the OT.
In regard to those things that we can agree on, the spiritual reality has emerged out of the literal, and the literal is no longer required by God. Things like circumcision, the one true place of worship, animal sacrifice, the Levitical priesthood, the new Temple (dwelling) of God, the new Ark of the Covenant, anointing oil, water of cleansing...all have been replaced by the realities they represented. The literal has been set aside in favor of the spiritual. They do not continue together. A clear precedant for us to understand what it means to worship in the new way of the Spirit in contrast to the old way of the literal (the written code).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The difference in practice is this, if we are to observe the covenant "according to the true way God says we are to worship Him." Should we do what Abba(Daddy) tells us to do. Or what we decide we should do for Him. For example, Dad says, "Take out the garbage." and we open the door so the house doesn't stink. Doesn't this fullfill the spirit of what he said? Yes, in a way, but as we will soon find out not Dad's way. Of course, Dad will laugh and shake his head the first time we do this, but after a while he might get a little testy. So, should we worship on Shabbat as He commanded, or on the first day of the week because we think that is when He rose from the dead, even though there is no command to do so?
There is no new literal law of worship to replace the old. That's why we are free to worship in Spirit and in Truth. Of course if your method of worship violates 'in Spirit and in Truth' then it isn't 'in Spirit and in Truth' anymore. But 'in Spirit and in Truth' is not defined as the old literal way with a heart that wants to. The very example Jesus uses to illustrate the new way of 'in Spirit and in Truth' is the replacing of the old place of worship with a new place of worship, not worshiping in the old place with a new heart. The old law of where to worship is clearly not in effect anymore.
What does this passage mean to you?:
"...we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6)
'Written code' is clearly referring to the 'letter' of the law. The old way Paul speaks of is not the flesh. The old way is the written letter of the law. He is clearly contrasting service to God according to the old way of the letter of the law with the new way of the Spirit, which I say often looks different on the outside but still fulfills the purpose and intent of the original law. And they have to be different, or there would be no basis for contrasting the two.
I share lots of scripture but I rarely get any feedback directly concerning those scriptures. At best, a new scripture gets shared without addressing the one I brought up. I explain my position thoroughly with the scriptures because, as I explained, we all have to form our convictions from the Word of God, not our personal reasonings. I'd be interested in your feedback concerning some of the very direct scriptures I've shared in the last few days.
Also, the scripture that I actually wanted to share in this morning's post (but couldn't remember where it is) was this:
"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. (1 Cor. 7:19)
This is an important scripture because it hits right at one of the foundational beliefs of the law keeping argument. Just as you see 'law' when you see the word 'truth', you also see 'law' when you see the word 'commands'. It's so ingrained and automatic in the Hebraic mindset that it almost looks like the product of an indoctrination.
The problem for that thinking in this passage is Paul is clearly contrasting a law of worship with what it means to 'obey God's commands'. If you've been following long enough, you know I contend that 'follow God's commands' in the NT means 'love your neighbor as yourself', not, as law keepers say, 'keep all of the Old Covenant laws'. What do you think Paul is trying to say here? Is he saying "the law of circumcision means nothing" and in the next breath, "keep the law of circumcision"? Obviously, no.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/15/2008 7:48:03 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 7:50:02 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 660
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
It has to be "from the heart" or else it's an external religion.
We're having a problem of "we can't say it this way, or we can't say it that way."
New couples coming in with their own country self teaching from the King James.
Actually, just pick and choosing what agrees with the Harley Davidson mindset. lol.
Rabbinic custom = headgear in church.
HD custom = wear my leather headgear in church.
Rabbinic custom = long beards.
HD custom = wear long nasty beard.
Yudah command = tazzles on four corners
HD custom = more tazzles from HD belt.
Bluegrass custom = Change "Do Lord" to "Do Yah" oh do remember me.
There are always those who are swayed back and forth from solid teaching to opinions.
We could all recognize the solid teaching we do agree with if we could get past our opinions. lol.
I probably won't sway the HD crowd set in their ways.
But the good out of all this as has been mentioned throughout this thread and others,
we may argue, but it causes most of us to study even more.
So, I have even more grounded answers for myself concerning the issues that come up here.
Are you sure about what you wrote. You seem to think a lot like people do today. there was one person who said they could not stand being around ugly people. The mind set is there for all kinds of evil a hatered towards other humans beings. And they believe that because they have faith in God, will also be able to reap the benefits of heavens rewards.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 7:53:36 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1140
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
The point is, God doesn't put much import on the worship laws of the old law. It's all about serving Him in regard to how you treat people. And that is now accomplished through a changed character, a new creation, by the Holy Spirit, not by following black and white letters of the law.
God is not against nor never stated that the observances of such laws was more important.
Jesus's sharp criticism of the Pharisees clearly shows us the import of character over and above external worship:
"You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." (Matt. 23:23-24)
Even at a time when the law was in full force, the laws of justice, mercy and faithfulness were more important than ceremonial and external laws of worship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...It's always been about how you treated your neighbor as well. Read Jeremiah and the prophets. The truth is, you can keep Sabbath, Feasts etc, etc, but if you treat people like ****...you are still jacked up. Apostle James deals with this when He says how can you love God who you can't see and hate your brother who you can see...
YHWH always wanted the heart circumcised. Deuteronomy says this, the prophets cried this (rend your heart and not your garments..., be no more stiff-necked..., create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit in me... The were those whose hearts were circumcised! David, Moses, Joshua, Daniel, Ezekiel...
The New Testament writers properly taught the TaNaKh to their disciples. The Brit Chadasha is not a bunch of new teachings, it is a bunch of teaching of properly taught/instructed Torah! Glory to YAH!
You know very well I'm the one who shared several very lenghty OT passages pointing this out. I'm convinced that those OT passages I shared are the inspiration for Paul's passages in the NT that tell us 'circumcision is nothing, obeying God's commands is what counts' (see my previous post to BlueThread).
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 8:05:27 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1140
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...hey Spongie.. interested in a career change, wanna be an orthodox rabbi?
Rabbi Sponge...hmmm, I kind of like that!
(Lap just fell out of his chair, lol!)
Oh! Oh! Before I forget. How do you like my new signature?...
"Why does He keep quoting Torah? 'Cause He's just about to fulfill it" (snort, snort...!)
(Lap, and my other beloved brothers/ sisters, that's not a stab at you. I just felt real witty for a brief second.)
Ahem...Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming...
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 9:51:06 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
SpongeBlog:
Does the mindset you embrace move you to follow external commands for worship, or does the mindset you embrace move you towards the qualities of Christ (peace, joy, gentleness, long-suffering...)? The New Covenant makes it clear which one God wants us to have now. Worship is now 'in Spirit and in Truth', meaning sincerely from the heart according to the true way God says we are to worship Him. The laws of worship are now fulfilled in the new way of the Spirit within a man, not externally in the old way of the law.
Rather than reprint your entire post, I just copied you conclusion. My observations can be applied to your justifications.
I agree with you in this with the exception that I believe that this is how it has always been. The covenant has never been in effect when it has merely been observed outwordly, the way many of us have ignorantly done it in the past(our old practice). It must be internalized, written on our hearts so we can observe it in spirit and in truth(our new practice). Now, in that I think we have the same mindset.
The difference in practice is this, if we are to observe the covenant "according to the true way God says we are to worship Him." Should we do what Abba(Daddy) tells us to do. Or what we decide we should do for Him. For example, Dad says, "Take out the garbage." and we open the door so the house doesn't stink. Doesn't this fullfill the spirit of what he said? Yes, in a way, but as we will soon find out not Dad's way. Of course, Dad will laugh and shake his head the first time we do this, but after a while he might get a little testy. So, should we worship on Shabbat as He commanded, or on the first day of the week because we think that is when He rose from the dead, even though there is no command to do so?
Greetings,
quote:
The difference in practice is this, if we are to observe the covenant "according to the true way God says we are to worship Him." Should we do what Abba(Daddy) tells us to do. Or what we decide we should do for Him. For example, Dad says, "Take out the garbage." and we open the door so the house doesn't stink. Doesn't this fulfill the spirit of what he said? Yes, in a way, but as we will soon find out not Dad's way.
Prophetically....speaking.....
When we picture Jesus as the epitome of the HS, then to observe the covenant "according to the true way God says we are to worship Him"....then is up to the Son to know to take it out before Father asks.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 10:02:02 PM
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psileste
Posts: 29
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I believe God judges us by our hearts. It's not the law that saves, but that doesn't make keeping any law a sin. If it is done out of love, what could be wrong with that?
Besides, a lot of the OT holidays and practices are beneficial to us. Non-Jewish Christians can learn a lot about Christ through observance (or at least learning about) these things. Jesus is revealed in all of the OT. People can do things for any number of reasons. If they are relying on the blood of Christ to save them, I don't see the problem. I think we need to be careful to make sure we don't replace the old law with a new law that says you can't do anything enumerated in the old law.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.
-- J.K. Galbraith
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 10:55:47 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1140
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quote:
ORIGINAL: psileste
I believe God judges us by our hearts. It's not the law that saves, but that doesn't make keeping any law a sin.
There is a general consensus among us all that this is not a salvation issue, but rather how we are to serve God after salvation. I say the new way that we serve, that Paul speaks about, does not mean that we now keep the same literal laws of Old Covenant worship, but only now with the aid of the Holy Spirit, but rather we fulfill the laws of worship in the new way of the Spirit.
All the laws of OT external worship are fulfilled when one believes and is sealed with the Holy Spirit. The continuing debt of literal worship required under the law, week after week, year after year, is paid in full by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And any debt that is paid no longer requires payment. The only debt we owe is the 'continuing debt to love', as Paul says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: psileste
If it is done out of love, what could be wrong with that?
Fundamentally, nothing. But the danger lies in taking false comfort in the success of your external works of worship which reveal nothing about the character of a person. I've been tooting that horn in these threads for months and months to all Christians. We all have our methods, procedures, traditions, and beliefs that we falsely think epitomize genuine service to God without even being aware that God wants character, not outward religiousity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: psileste
Besides, a lot of the OT holidays and practices are beneficial to us. Non-Jewish Christians can learn a lot about Christ through observance (or at least learning about) these things. Jesus is revealed in all of the OT. People can do things for any number of reasons. If they are relying on the blood of Christ to save them, I don't see the problem.
I don't either if that's what literal law keepers would say. But they believe that God really wants us to continue to relate to Him through the literal procedures and timetable of the OT. You can twist it and sugar coat it anyway you want (like one of those funny donuts), but you are essentially telling everyone who doesn't do it that they are being disobedient. And that's a far cry from, "hey, we find a lot of joy and pleasure and learning in acting out the festivals and stuff in the OT. Maybe you could too! But if not that's cool."
quote:
ORIGINAL: psileste
I think we need to be careful to make sure we don't replace the old law with a new law that says you can't do anything enumerated in the old law.
And we try to make it understood we are not doing that. But I do share the danger to all Christians of finding false comfort in their 'church stuff' instead of walking in the character of Christ as seen in the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit and adopting various external methods of worship are two different things completely. And the one will never replace, or make up for, the other, yet Christians everywhere are fooled into thinking otherwise. Read Jeremiah 7 in it's entirey. It's message cuts across all of Christendom.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/15/2008 11:03:22 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 11:32:46 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 783
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I'm going to attempt to discuss Romans 7, because this chapter is often cited as one of the texts that teach that we are free from the bondage of the Law. I believe as well as other scholars, that this is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted Pauline texts. Romans 7:1-14, somewhere in these verses it says something to effect of "being delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." He turns around in verse 7 and says, "Is the law sin? GOD FORBID. Nay,I had not known sin...
Verse 11-14 is the key, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it (sin) slew me. Wherefore the law is holy (now God told us in Leviticus and Peter to be holy because YAH is holy), and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good (the Torah) made death unto me? GOD FORBID. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is (not was) good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. *****For we know (at least we should know  ...some of us knows) that the law is SPIRITUAL: BUT I AM CARNAL, SOLD under SIN.
What are we in bondage to, the Law or to the sin nature or "the flesh" which cause us to sin? Paul is talking about death to our flesh. Not death to the Torah or Law! To illustrate his point, Paul uses an analogy of a marriage relationship in which when a man dies the woman is released from all the laws relating to her union.
Brad Young, a Jewish scholar, points out that the saying, "when a person dies he is free from the law and commandments", that this was a well known concept in halakhah (oral law). Paul writing to Jews dispersed in Rome (as well as non-Jews) understood this thought from the sages and it spoke of one's flesh being released from the evil inclination. The rabbi's taught that while a person is alive, he is a servant to God and the flesh but when he dies, he is set free to serve only God. The Master taught us that we can not serve two masters, in Matthew 6.
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