RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread

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SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 6:16:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread I too have have found it hard to find the time to address all of the various objections you have with keeping Ha Torah. That is why I sought to find the underlying principles which we can then compare with each of the examples and objections. I only brought up the agreemetn I mad with you at the beiginning of our one on one discussion. If you wish me to show you how I justify living a Torah observant life style, I will not be able to focus on the things you originally wanted me to focus on. I do not want you then coming back and saying that I am not answering you original inquiries. The ball is in your court. What's next? quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: Circumcision is vital to understanding why literal Torah is not followed today. If we are going to meet on any common ground it will be on Paul's clear teaching that one does not have to be circumcised to be in covenant with God even though it was a clear, undebatable and binding literal requirement of Torah. This is a conclusion and implies that it is not open to examination or deabte. Who said you can't open it up to debate? I was sure you'd challenge this assertion and that this would be the very place you'd start your argument. Begin the debate. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread The only way we are going to understand what Paul says about the requirements of Ha Torah, is to understand the underlying principles on which it is based. That is what I am trying to establish. Keep going. I'll sort through what's meaningful to me. If I miss something you feel I should not, just let me know. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: How can all this be true for Sabbath observance but not circumcision? How can not being circumcised not limit one's intimacy with God the way you say not observing the Sabbath would? Both were clear commands on how to mark oneself in response to entering into covenant with God. What's the dif? Patience, all in due time. The difference that is relevant at this point is that circumcision is not even mentioned in the Scriptural record, when Shabbat was instituted. We got a little problem here right out of the gate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think God established a day of required rest for mankind when He entered into His own rest beginning on the seventh day of creation. I hope we don't have to rely on an unwritten tradition, or some extra-Biblical information to say God commanded mankind to rest with Him on the seventh day of creation. As far as I understand now, the seventh day of creation is not explained as a now ongoing, weekly day of rest to observed by mankind. It only says God rested beginning on the seventh day of creation. If this is indeed true, I think it unreasonable to even remotely suggest God instituted Sabbath observance at this time. I don't think there's even a hint of that in Genesis. Correct me if I'm wrong. (And this isn't about patience. It's about time. I often end of robbing my family of my time and what I should be doing for them by getting bogged down in lengthy posts that don't get resolved.) quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Therefore, it can not be vital to understanding the keeping of Shabbat. That is what the Jersualem council was debating. Now, this is not the thread on keeping Shabbat, but you asked me to make the connection and I will do so in due course. It's about keeping the law. You can talk about it. A person had no part of the promises if they were not circumcised. I think that kind of trumps Sabbath keeping, making it a moot point if you have no inheritance with Israel to begin with because of uncircumcision. In fact, you cannot participate in the all important Feast of Passoer required by God unless you are first circumcised. I don't think you can underestimate the place of circumcision in regard to serving God in the old covenant the way you are. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Nothing matters if we do not accept the founding principles. I believe this is what Paul is alluding in the passage you quote. quote: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (Gal. 5:6) If you mean the founding principle of faith, then I would agree. But this passage is not limited to what you are saying. He's plainly saying circumcision is a big nothing when it comes to it being any kind of proof or evidence of a genuine faith in a person. The underlying exhortation is to seek the confirmation of God's grace that is true (that 'in Spirit and in Truth' thing), and actually means something, and not to be mislead by mere externals. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: The outward act of circumcision means nothing. Love as the expression of one's faith is what it's all about. Not external methods of worship, no matter how absolutely requried they used to be! Faith in what? I hope this also effects how one defines love. Faith in the hope God has extended to fallen man, responding in faith to that message of hope, and then that faith manifesting itself in love for others: "...we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints— *5the faith and love that spring from* the hope that is stored up for you in heaven** and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth." (Col. 1:4-6) It all starts with hearing about the hope we have in God. We respond in faith. Faith in turn leads to a life of love for others. The hope is the promise of our salvation and the restoration of our fellowship with God that was lost in the garden. Paul says love is the manifestation of having faith in the hope of God. Not keeping the once required laws of worship. Those prove nothing and are not the proof that you've laid hold of the hope of God by faith. The externals are deceitful and prove nothing. Even the corrupt and unbelieving Israelites kept those pretty well. But it was their disregard for the laws of love and concern for their fellow man that proved their unbelief. And it's the same today. Going through all the outward motions of Church attendance and external worship don't prove a thing about your relationship with God. God knows it and tells us that we are to seek the work of faith in us that truly shows us as having been justified by faith. We are to take no confidence in the things of the flesh (like circumcision) as proof of our faith, and our standing with God. Only a changed character as seen in the fruit of love for others is that proof. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: The NT teaches that the law failed to do what you claim it does (establish intimacy with God resulting in obedience to Him). And that what the written code failed to do is now accomplished by the indwelling Holy Spirit. We now have unfettered and complete unity with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit apart from works of the law. This relationship is established and upheld by believing, not works of the law. Forget the analogy for now. I presented the contention that unfettered and complete unity with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit was available to us(Adam and Eve) in the garden, before the fall, when Shabbat was established. Let's not go running off in several directions again, but proceed one step at a time. Do you or do you not accept the arguments that I presented regarding the "first great commandment" being the founding principle, the "second great commandment" being derived from it and everything else being derived from these two. Until we come to some agreement on these principles nothing else matters. Well, I'm not sure I got that directly out of your last post. Maybe you can make the connection between God resting on the seventh day and the two greatest commandments a little better. Take this where you want to from here.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 7:59:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog We got a little problem here right out of the gate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think God established a day of required rest for mankind when He entered into His own rest beginning on the seventh day of creation. I hope we don't have to rely on an unwritten tradition, or some extra-Biblical information to say God commanded mankind to rest with Him on the seventh day of creation. As far as I understand now, the seventh day of creation is not explained as a now ongoing, weekly day of rest to observed by mankind. It only says God rested beginning on the seventh day of creation. If this is indeed true, I think it unreasonable to even remotely suggest God instituted Sabbath observance at this time. I don't think there's even a hint of that in Genesis. Correct me if I'm wrong. This is used as justification for the commandment when Adonai gave it to us on Mt. Sinai. One could surmise therefore that it had been understood from the beginning. However, before that time it had not been directly commanded. Let's get back to this issue later , so we cam keep these posts short quote: (And this isn't about patience. It's about time. I often end of robbing my family of my time and what I should be doing for them by getting bogged down in lengthy posts that don't get resolved.) Don't take time from your family, respond only when you have the time. I hate to be a legalist, but on this I must insist. Re: The Jerusalem Council quote: It's about keeping the law. You can talk about it. A person had no part of the promises if they were not circumcised. I think that kind of trumps Sabbath keeping, making it a moot point if you have no inheritance with Israel to begin with because of uncircumcision. In fact, you cannot participate in the all important Feast of Passoer required by God unless you are first circumcised. I don't think you can underestimate the place of circumcision in regard to serving God in the old covenant the way you are. This brings us the whole iss ue of the definition of "cut off". This will take some time, so let's table it until we've resolved any differences on the significance of the "two greatest commandments". Believe me, I do want to discuss the meanig of "cut off". quote: If you mean the founding principle of faith, then I would agree. But this passage is not limited to what you are saying. I mean any founding principle. I will remind you of my view of founding principles in this response. quote: quote: quote: The outward act of circumcision means nothing. Love as the expression of one's faith is what it's all about. Not external methods of worship, no matter how absolutely requried they used to be! Faith in what? Faith in the hope God has extended to fallen man, responding in faith to that message of hope, and then that faith manifesting itself in love for others: In order understand that hope one must be clear on what one means by "God". quote: Well, I'm not sure I got that directly out of your last post. Maybe you can make the connection between God resting on the seventh day and the two greatest commandments a little better. First of all Adonai is infinite and everything else is finite. The Lord is one. This is the only commandment (statement of how things are and aught to be) that stands alone. It does not depend on man. It was the case before man's creation and it will continue to be the case for as long as man exists. If He is not infinite, there is something that is out of His control and we can not trust that we are safe from that. The converse is also true. If something is out of His control, then He is not infinite and He can not be trusted to keep His word, because extenuating circumstances can intervene. Therefore, everything that is Him is by definition right. Everything He says is true, for He has no need to lie. Also, everything He says is indicative of His character. His words indicate to us who He is. So, all we know of Adonai comes from Him, His word. Therefore, when one talks about The Word(Ha Torah), he is talking about Adonai, as He is revealed to us. I am not talking about the written Torah, I will get to that in due course. Second, If everything else is finite, then we are finite and that which is finite is subject to that which is infinite. Thus, we have the second half of the greatest commandment. You shall love Adonai Elehenu(The Lord your God) with all your heart, with all you soul and with all your might. Which only makes sense since it is in Him we have our being. Now, sense Adonai is infinite, we can do nothing without Him. Thus, Adonai must make this possible and that is in fact what He did when He created us. He breathed into us the Ruach(breath of life). So, all men have within them Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God). Since nothing can exist outside of Adonai and that which is good is from Adonai, Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God) is but another name for Adonai. This is what I believe it means when Adonai says, "Let us make man in our own image". There was no need for Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Spirit set apart for a purpose) at that time for there was but one Spirit and that Spirit was not diminished. Now we use the term Ruach Ha Chedosh(Holy Spirit) to differentiate when we are honoring Ruach Ha Adonai from when we are not, but all have access to Ruach Ha Adonai or else they would not continue to exist, they would die. That is why we are said to have died when we chose to do evil. We did not die completely because we still had Ruach Ha Adonai, for Adonai was gracious to us and did not withdraw His Ruach(Spirit). We did that which was not in character with how we were created, in the image and likeness of Adonai. So, that part of us that was not in Adonai’s character died. Notice how the second half is meaningless without the first? Third, if all men are created in the image and likeness of Adonai and have within them Ruach Ha Adonai, then we must by necessity love our neighbor as ourselves and Him. I believe this is why Yeshua(Jesus) tells use that the second greatest commandment is like unto the first. That is, it is derived from the first. Do you see a pattern emerging? Now it is important that we not focus too much on the pattern, but the persons and relationships we are seeing in this pattern. The pattern can change, but the persons and the relationships do not, except with regard to living and dieing.

bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 10:45:10 PM)
The statement has been made that in the Old Testament, unless one was circumcised they could not partake of the promises. Now here is my question. I think all will agree that without faith no one is saved. Since circumcision does not create faith and thus does not bring about salvation what did circumcision really bring to the OT Israelis? Even those circumcised today without faith have not inherited any of the promises of God and will not until such time as God writes His law upon their hearts and saves the third part of Israel in the latter days. Are we to think that unless an Israeli is circumcised during the latter part of the 70th week that he will not be able to achieve salvation by faith? I sure that in my ignorance, I am missing something important…I just can’t think of it off hand. I mean…if we don’t have salvation, what do we have? I have never really thought about this question until now and maybe someone has a answer to this question. Bob

Carico -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 11:17:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rockv12 Yes or no question is being asked to me...I will answer "yes". I believe Christians are to follow the Sabbath law. So this being said, wouldn't I be implying that it is God's will that we keep the Sabbath? Am I in trouble for answering the question? The problem is that most Christians don't know who the Sabbath is. The Sabbath is Jesus Christ which Hebrews 4:1-9 explains beautifully. Jesus fulfilled the whole law, including the Sabbath law. So the Sabbath is not a day of the week as Colossians 2:16-17 and Romans 14:5-6 explain. But unfortunately, most Christians don't know the bible well enough to know that.

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 11:22:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico quote: ORIGINAL: rockv12 Yes or no question is being asked to me...I will answer "yes". I believe Christians are to follow the Sabbath law. So this being said, wouldn't I be implying that it is God's will that we keep the Sabbath? Am I in trouble for answering the question? The problem is that most Christians don't know who the Sabbath is. The Sabbath is Jesus Christ which Hebrews 4:1-9 explains beautifully. Jesus fulfilled the whole law, including the Sabbath law. So the Sabbath is not a day of the week as Colossians 2:16-17 and Romans 14:5-6 explain. But unfortunately, most Christians don't know the bible well enough to know that. For those who do know the Bible all to well, they know that "sabbath" has more than one meaning. the first and simplest is = week. 7 sabbaths = 7 weeks Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. the Sabbath of Genesis was the seventh "day." Creation finished in one week. Keeping that Sabbath is acknowledging the Creator and His Creation. It's all interconnected. We can spiritualize it away, but that part hasn't changed.

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 11:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 The statement has been made that in the Old Testament, unless one was circumcised they could not partake of the promises. Now here is my question. I think all will agree that without faith no one is saved. Since circumcision does not create faith and thus does not bring about salvation what did circumcision really bring to the OT Israelis? Even those circumcised today without faith have not inherited any of the promises of God and will not until such time as God writes His law upon their hearts and saves the third part of Israel in the latter days. Are we to think that unless an Israeli is circumcised during the latter part of the 70th week that he will not be able to achieve salvation by faith? I sure that in my ignorance, I am missing something important…I just can’t think of it off hand. I mean…if we don’t have salvation, what do we have? I have never really thought about this question until now and maybe someone has a answer to this question. Bob You're right Bob. Salvation has always been a matter of Grace. Abram was accounted "righteous" by "faith." Then the circumcision was given as a "token" of the Covenant. The Promised Land was part of that Covenant guaranteed by the circumcision. This thread keeps jumping from branch to branch, so it's hard to get to a single root on anything. LOL.

bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/18/2008 11:53:48 PM)
quote: The Promised Land was part of that Covenant guaranteed by the circumcision. Lap...but that was only partially fulfilled and then it was taken away because of disobediences and apparently will not be fulfilled completely until the millennium. The land that Israel occupies today is only a small part of the covenant. Now if you tell me that Israel has to be circumcised to possess the land during the millennium…then I don’t have an argument. But it gets right back to the question…what has circumcision gain up to that point? Bob

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 10:29:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 ...Now if you tell me that Israel has to be circumcised to possess the land during the millennium…then I don’t have an argument. But it gets right back to the question…what has circumcision gain up to that point? A big fat nothing. That's the point Paul is making in the NT. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything. It benefits nothing to be a part of the circumcision (Israel), or to become a part of them by virtue of circumcision. Natural lineage counts for nothing in possessing the promises. Circumcision has no value whatsoever apart from believing. And that believing is evidenced in obeying God's command to 'love one another', not 'be circumcised' (or whatever OT worship law there may be). Circumcision only has value if it is indeed an expression of faith in the promises and not a work of the flesh. And even then it is still a big fat nothing since Paul tells us not to take any confidence in the flesh. Only character is the outward measure by which we can truly take confidence that we are indeed at peace with God and sealed in Christ in preparation for The Day. "...Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him." (1 John 4:16-17) "14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." ( 1 John 3: Character is the emerging sign within us that confirms and strengthens the hope we have laid hold of in Christ by faith: "...we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope." (Romans 5:3-4) (Outward signs of lawkeeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Many, many people in our Churches today prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.) In direct answer to your question, the matter of circumcision is kind of moot for the nation of Israel anyway. I suspect there is no such thing as an uncircumcised Jew. The point is, having that outward circumcision is completely meaningless. Only those who are circumcised in heart (by the Holy Spirit) show that they share in the lineage of Christ and have the surety of inheriting the promises that only the true family of God is entitled to. This could go a lot of places from here, but this is why I say Christ replaced the Jews as the nation and family of God. We must become a part of that nation to inherit God's favor. It's meaningless to adopt Jewish tradition and culture since it counts for nothing as a sign you are in the family (no matter how Biblical it may or may not be). That's not a prohibition against those things. It simply means they mean nothing in the eyes of God and need to be relegated to their proper place in the order of things. Any Church that has not devoted itself to growing believers up into the fruit of the Spirit has missed it's primary purpose. The only meaningful purpose we have as children of God: "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Gal. 5:6) I'm big on this subject because all of Christendom is in the grip of the deception of trusting in works of the flesh (going to church, tithing, and other things, and procedures, etc.) for the confirmation of their salvation. Too many think lawkeeping (OT or NT) is how we justify ourselves (show ourselves to have been made righteous). It simply isn't true! Love, a changed character, is how we justify ourselves. It's probably the biggest deception in the church today. And it robs us of the true liberty of relating to God through the confidence and peace and joy of serving Him in the new way of the Spirit instead of the old way of written requirements. This is where I plug in Romans 14:17-18, but it's already in my signature. The new way of love (not meaningless externals, no matter how cheerfully and willingly you do them) is the way to the abundant life Christ died to give us (see John 14 & 15).

bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 5:38:44 PM)
Yeah SpongeBlog…the whole thing sure boils down to love doesn’t it? I become more aware of this fact with each passing day and it is something that I’m still working on perfecting. But if you poll 100 Christians I think the high percentage will give a different answer. I know today when I read my bible I see and understand the commandment to love where in the past it escaped me...I was looking for something else. Bob

LoyalGypsy -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 9:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog Outward signs of lawkeeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Many, many people in our Churches today prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.) quote: Many, many people in our Churches today prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.) I agree there! quote: Outward signs of law keeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Isn’t that a contradiction...? I mean ...if there is evidence or Outward signs of law keeping, then isn’t that the fruit the evidence) of what is written on the Heart? ....therefore what is inside always manifests itself in an external expression. No matter what it is...*, that is what Paul was speaking of in the sense the Law could not do… from the outside in… From the inside out is where we keep the Law, and by faith flows the promises of God I haven’t met too many Christians who still sin (lawbreakers), who possess those promises of God, other than that open door at the foot of the cross, because there no longer remains that sacrifice for… SIN!! LG

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 9:52:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: Faith in the hope God has extended to fallen man, responding in faith to that message of hope, and then that faith manifesting itself in love for others: In order understand that hope one must be clear on what one means by "God". I really didn't expect that to be a point of debate or misunderstanding. quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: Well, I'm not sure I got that directly out of your last post. Maybe you can make the connection between God resting on the seventh day and the two greatest commandments a little better. First of all Adonai is infinite and everything else is finite. The Lord is one. This is the only commandment (statement of how things are and aught to be) that stands alone. It does not depend on man. It was the case before man's creation and it will continue to be the case for as long as man exists. If He is not infinite, there is something that is out of His control and we can not trust that we are safe from that. The converse is also true. If something is out of His control, then He is not infinite and He can not be trusted to keep His word, because extenuating circumstances can intervene. Therefore, everything that is Him is by definition right. Everything He says is true, for He has no need to lie. Also, everything He says is indicative of His character. His words indicate to us who He is. So, all we know of Adonai comes from Him, His word. Therefore, when one talks about The Word(Ha Torah), he is talking about Adonai, as He is revealed to us. I am not talking about the written Torah, I will get to that in due course. Second, If everything else is finite, then we are finite and that which is finite is subject to that which is infinite. Thus, we have the second half of the greatest commandment. You shall love Adonai Elehenu(The Lord your God) with all your heart, with all you soul and with all your might. Which only makes sense since it is in Him we have our being. Now, sense Adonai is infinite, we can do nothing without Him. Thus, Adonai must make this possible and that is in fact what He did when He created us. He breathed into us the Ruach(breath of life). So, all men have within them Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God). Since nothing can exist outside of Adonai and that which is good is from Adonai, Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God) is but another name for Adonai. This is what I believe it means when Adonai says, "Let us make man in our own image". There was no need for Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Spirit set apart for a purpose) at that time for there was but one Spirit and that Spirit was not diminished. Now we use the term Ruach Ha Chedosh(Holy Spirit) to differentiate when we are honoring Ruach Ha Adonai from when we are not, but all have access to Ruach Ha Adonai or else they would not continue to exist, they would die. That is why we are said to have died when we chose to do evil. We did not die completely because we still had Ruach Ha Adonai, for Adonai was gracious to us and did not withdraw His Ruach(Spirit). We did that which was not in character with how we were created, in the image and likeness of Adonai. So, that part of us that was not in Adonai’s character died. Notice how the second half is meaningless without the first? Third, if all men are created in the image and likeness of Adonai and have within them Ruach Ha Adonai, then we must by necessity love our neighbor as ourselves and Him. I believe this is why Yeshua(Jesus) tells use that the second greatest commandment is like unto the first. That is, it is derived from the first. Do you see a pattern emerging? Now it is important that we not focus too much on the pattern, but the persons and relationships we are seeing in this pattern. The pattern can change, but the persons and the relationships do not, except with regard to living and dieing. Sorry, but I'm still not getting it. You'll probably have to walk me through it step by step and connect the dots for me.

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 10:57:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: Outward signs of law keeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Isn’t that a contradiction...? No. Maybe the misunderstanding comes from thinking that any law keeping is automatically the equivalent of character. The law keeping I'm talking about is the following of prescribed duties and activities that we are sure God expects us to perform as believers. For Messianics it's the strict OT laws of worship. For modern reformists it's tithing, witnessing, church attendance, programs, food drives, etc. These things may in fact be motivated by love but in and of themselves they do not prove you have a changed character. That's why we are not to rely on them as evidence of salvation. There is a big difference between doing something simply because you think it's what God would like to see you doing because that's what believers do, and doing something because it's the nature of God inside of you truly reaching out on behalf of another person. It's all about motivation. As an example, of all the people who tithe, most it seems, are only discharging a duty they think they owe God, while some do it out of a genuine desire to supply someone else's real need irregardless of whether it's a 'law' or not. They're not doing it simply because it's expected of them. They're doing it because they ernestly want to bless someone else. The first way of tithing is only a matter of relating to God through a sense of law. The second way of tithing is relating to God through a changed character. Two vastly different ways of relating to God that can look the same on the outside but have a completely different motivation behind them. This kind of law keeping is not automatically evidence of a changed character. quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy I mean ...if there is evidence or Outward signs of law keeping, then isn’t that the fruit the *evidence) of what is written on the Heart? No. We have centuries of law keeping by the Israelites that prove it. The fruit that God is looking for is not the keeping of ceremonial laws and requirements. The inner qualities of love, joy, compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering, patience, justice, mercy, etc. are the qualities that qualify as fruit and are the only way you and others can confirm that you have indeed become a new creation in Christ by the Holy Spirit. External worship laws count for nothing and prove nothing about the spirit of a man. Anybody can be circumcised and not be a changed person. Anybody can keep the OT laws of worship and not be a changed person. Anybody can tithe and not be a changed person. But no one can walk in the fruit of the Spirit without first being made a new creation in Christ. The man who is in control of his spirit, that is the man who proves his place in Christ. That's the mark of the believer, not mere external worship techniques. It's wrong and deceitful to seek after and trust in having fufilled external requirements of worship for confirmation of one's faith. We all have to ask ourselves, 'do I find comfort and confirmation in my salvation by going to Church and fulfilling other duties and obligations of the faith, or by being filled with joy and peace, and genuine love for others--a love that is evidenced by the absence of things like fits of rage, jealousy, envy, greed, and hatred?' The fruit of the Spirit is how we show ourselves to have been made righteous by God, not works of the law.

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 9:26:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 ...the whole thing sure boils down to love doesn’t it? ...But if you poll 100 Christians I think the high percentage will give a different answer. I'm confident of that. It seems not many know about this truth. So many seem caught in the performance trap of written requirements. When my eyes started opening up to it, I realized it was probably the best kept secret of Christianity, yet it's right under our noses in black and white and requires no interpretation. "9Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other." (1 Thess. 4:9) Even though it's plain in scripture, nobody roots it out on their own. It's purely a work of God. That's why it's the only true confirmation that one knows God (or as Paul says, that God knows you). quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 I know today when I read my bible I see and understand the commandment to love where in the past it escaped me...I was looking for something else. Yes. By nature we're all looking for something else. It takes a lot of faith that only comes by the Holy Spirit to believe that all our longings and wants and sufferings of life are satisfied in the command to love. The nature of God is so alien to us that there is nothing inside of us by nature that would even suspect there is any value or worth in 'turning the other cheek', or not 'resisting an evil person', for example,. Yet this is the very obedience that allows each of us as children of God to enter the promised land of God's abundance and blessing. Failure to obey these commands causes us to be quickly deported out of the place of blessing. By nature we don't entertain these commands for even a second as possible solutions to our lot in life. I believe that's why we skip over them so quickly when we read them in the scriptures and glean no understanding whatsoever out of them along the way. Only through the Holy Spirit as we diligently seek God out of despair and longing is the veil of our natural inclinations (intensified by the law) pulled away so we can see the face of Christ and who He is in these foundational truths.

Odeliya -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 4:55:08 PM)
quote: Rabbi Shmuel (Sponge): And this isn't about patience. It's about time. I often end of robbing my family of my time and what I should be doing for them by getting bogged down in lengthy posts that don't get resolved.) Rabbi Benyamin (Bluethread): Don't take time from your family, respond only when you have the time. I hate to be a legalist, but on this I must insist. meddling in other people’s business again..[;)] Kapara sheli (my good friend), this is what i know: Time spend in theological debates is a time well invested, by any parent. I have way too many amer. friends, open or latent atheists solely due to the fact their parents were ignorant , and church pastors too busy keeping the business running to worry about kids true religious education. What Spongie ,if I may speculate,tried to politely hint at (and he got my vote, Lord knows!)- " Let's cut on demagoguery, brother." For it does inevitably creeps into theol. forums of your caliber. Quite a few times, crawling thru one of your and Sponge's unadmissibly long latest installments, and I think to self: "Oy vey iz mir( Poor me)! Ze haval! (what a waste of time) The positions can be expressed in 7 words each easily” , and I fell i need some Manischewitz (Tylenol). That said, I do immensely like your debate and it’s very educational. BT and Sponge you make interesting, great points. But yes, sometimes it is repetitive and heavy on rhetoric, so whatever you can cut out, gentlemen, please do, I will be greatly obliged.

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 8:20:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Odeliya ...so whatever you can cut out, gentlemen, please do, I will be greatly obliged. k

bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 8:34:07 PM)
I would agree...I would enjoy reading the statements but frankly they are so long that I fall asleep somewhere in the middle. I have a very short attention span I guess. Bob

LoyalGypsy -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 9:32:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: Outward signs of law keeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Isn’t that a contradiction...? No. Maybe the misunderstanding comes from thinking that any law keeping is automatically the equivalent of character. The only misunderstanding I have seen is the debunking of the blessings associated in the front of the Book, along with the instructions. quote: The law keeping I'm talking about is the following of prescribed duties and activities that we are sure God expects us to perform as believers. For Messianic it's the strict OT laws of worship. I cant speak for our Messianic brethren who have accepted Christ as savior, yet The Bible mentioned and I believe Lap has already mentioned it also that there is such a thing called the blessing and the curse , ….in which hang ""all"" (which means BOTH) the Law and the Prophets, Now....If we have received that pardon from the curse, then how do we obtain the blessings??? ...being the blessings and the curse hang on the same laws.[8\|] That is what we are talking about [;)] LG

LoyalGypsy -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2008 10:09:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: Outward signs of law keeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Isn’t that a contradiction...? No. Maybe the misunderstanding comes from thinking that any law keeping is automatically the equivalent of character. The law keeping I'm talking about is the following of prescribed duties and activities that we are sure God expects us to perform as believers. For Messianics it's the strict OT laws of worship. For modern reformists it's tithing, witnessing, church attendance, programs, food drives, etc. These things may in fact be motivated by love but in and of themselves they do not prove you have a changed character. That's why we are not to rely on them as evidence of salvation. There is a big difference between doing something simply because you think it's what God would like to see you doing because that's what believers do, and doing something because it's the nature of God inside of you truly reaching out on behalf of another person. It's all about motivation. As an example, of all the people who tithe, most it seems, are only discharging a duty they think they owe God, while some do it out of a genuine desire to supply someone else's real need irregardless of whether it's a 'law' or not. They're not doing it simply because it's expected of them. They're doing it because they ernestly want to bless someone else. The first way of tithing is only a matter of relating to God through a sense of law. The second way of tithing is relating to God through a changed character. Two vastly different ways of relating to God that can look the same on the outside but have a completely different motivation behind them. This kind of law keeping is not automatically evidence of a changed character. quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy I mean ...if there is evidence or Outward signs of law keeping, then isn’t that the fruit the evidence) of what is written on the Heart? No. We have centuries of law keeping by the Israelites that prove it. The fruit that God is looking for is not the keeping of ceremonial laws and requirements. The inner qualities of love, joy, compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering, patience, justice, mercy, etc. are the qualities that qualify as fruit and are the only way you and others can confirm that you have indeed become a new creation in Christ by the Holy Spirit. External worship laws count for nothing and prove nothing about the spirit of a man. Anybody can be circumcised and not be a changed person. Anybody can keep the OT laws of worship and not be a changed person. Anybody can tithe and not be a changed person. But no one can walk in the fruit of the Spirit without first being made a new creation in Christ. The man who is in control of his spirit, that is the man who proves his place in Christ. That's the mark of the believer, not mere external worship techniques. It's wrong and deceitful to seek after and trust in having fufilled external requirements of worship for confirmation of one's faith. We all have to ask ourselves, 'do I find comfort and confirmation in my salvation by going to Church and fulfilling other duties and obligations of the faith, or by being filled with joy and peace, and genuine love for others--a love that is evidenced by the absence of things like fits of rage, jealousy, envy, greed, and hatred?' The fruit of the Spirit is how we show ourselves to have been made righteous by God, not works of the law. Greetings, quote:* For modern reformists it's tithing, witnessing, church attendance, programs, food drives, etc. These things may in fact be motivated by love but in and of themselves they do not prove you have a changed character. That's why we are not to rely on them as evidence of salvation. One should tithe when one receives revelation, if is comes from obligation, then one should seriously consider getting out of that dry place, ….and as well as the rest are concerned everyone should really read the book for themselves… in order to make that relationship. [:)] quote: There is a big difference between doing something simply because you think it's what God would like to see you doing because that's what believers do, and doing something because it's the nature of God inside of you truly reaching out on behalf of another person. It's all about motivation. Motivation… for whom?? 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Reaching out on behalf of another person has no bearing as an indicator of salvation, especially when there is a spirit of offence v10….because…. in its own right it could transform into legalism v12; as even Satan disguises himself...as an angel of light [sm=angel.gif] .....When those things begin to happen in v10-11… it is a hay day for the devil, quote: It's all about motivation. .. ...It’s actually all about power that was given at Pentecost.v13 LG

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 9:09:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: Outward signs of law keeping, OT or NT, are not the evidence or sign of possessing the promises. Isn’t that a contradiction...? No. Maybe the misunderstanding comes from thinking that any law keeping is automatically the equivalent of character. The only misunderstanding I have seen is the debunking of the blessings associated in the front of the Book, along with the instructions. quote: The law keeping I'm talking about is the following of prescribed duties and activities that we are sure God expects us to perform as believers. For Messianic it's the strict OT laws of worship. I cant speak for our Messianic brethren who have accepted Christ as savior, yet The Bible mentioned and I believe Lap has already mentioned it also that there is such a thing called the blessing and the curse , ….in which hang ""all"" (which means BOTH) the Law and the Prophets, Now....If we have received that pardon from the curse, then how do we obtain the blessings??? ...being the blessings and the curse hang on the same laws.[8\|] That is what we are talking about [;)] If you love others you will experience God's blessing. That's the obedience God is looking for and richly rewards. Love is not a feeling. It's a determination not to neglect or hurt other people in the fulfillment of our own desires and needs. The defining characteristic of love is that it is completely unconditional and applies to those who mistreat us, and those who have no merit of their own to deserve it. If you do this, showing yourself to be a son of God, you will be blessed by God. "32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:32-36) This kind of unconditional behavior is the mark in the flesh, the circumcision that distinguishes us and marks us as different from the world and belonging to God. The blessings go to the sons of God, not the slaves of sin. We are not to take confidence in the external works of the flesh (OT worship laws) for our confirmation as the sons of God. You can still do them. They simply are not the way you prove yourself to be set apart as a son of God. The man who loves (as Jesus taught) but doesn't fulfill the OT worship laws will condemn the man who fulfills the OT worship laws but doesn't love.

SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 9:46:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: There is a big difference between doing something simply because you think it's what God would like to see you doing because that's what believers do, and doing something because it's the nature of God inside of you truly reaching out on behalf of another person. It's all about motivation. Motivation… for whom?? I think this kind of says alot about the law keeping argument in general. Don't you think you should have rather have asked 'from' whom? Can you see how the choice of words here shows a little bit about what may be going on inside a person? Law keeping goes up, and is for God. Life in the Spirit comes down, and is from God. It really illustrates the difference between relating to God in a sense of law vs. relating to Him through the Spirit. Both ways fulfill the requirements of the law. That's the deceitful part. But God is only interested in one of them. I'm not your judge. I offer this up for introspection for all of us to judge ourselves. quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Reaching out on behalf of another person has no bearing as an indicator of salvation, especially when there is a spirit of offence v10….because…. in its own right it could transform into legalism v12; as even Satan disguises himself...as an angel of light [sm=angel.gif] .....When those things begin to happen in v10-11… it is a hay day for the devil, quote: It's all about motivation. .. ...It’s actually all about power that was given at Pentecost.v13 The 'lawlessness' that Jesus refers to in the gospels is the lawlessness of lovelessness, not the failure to observe OT worship laws. Paul explains it more: "...There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power." (2 Tim. 3:1-4) These lawless people aren't absent of 'religion'. The 'form of godliness' is the outward trappings of their christianity--church attendance, etc. They are going through all the outward motions and offering up the lip service, but they have no power as the sons of God. Power that motivates them to the deeds of the Spirit--kindness, forgiveness, peace, joy, patience, long-suffering. Deeds of the Spirit that witness to the reality of Christ, and the reality of Christ in a person. See, the externals count for nothing. And with that being true and clearly laid out for us in the NT, what should we be focusing on and emphasizing as the sons of God in the pursuit of our Father's blessing? What day we go to Church on, or how we treat each other? Of the two, which will bring the reward as a son of God? It's all about being motivated by that power that came to the earth on the day of Pentacost. Power to live lives that make us witnesses and living testimonies of the glory and blessing of God. Power that is seen in the character of God in us (not our religiousity) and which is the fulfillment of the promise to the Seed of Abraham, the Son of God, of whom we are a part of by the Holy Spirit.

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 11:48:59 AM)
quote: I'm big on this subject because all of Christendom is in the grip of the deception of trusting in works of the flesh (going to church, tithing, and other things, and procedures, etc.) for the confirmation of their salvation. Too many think lawkeeping (OT or NT) is how we justify ourselves (show ourselves to have been made righteous). It simply isn't true! Love, a changed character, is how we justify ourselves. Depending on our view points and whether we look at the whole picture or just the portion we zero in on, determines our "spin" on any subject. I agree to trust in works is sin and ends in a big fat "zero" as spongie says. But, to reject works is just as wrong. It does not justify us, but it's evidence that we are justified. James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. We argue that feeding orphans, widows, strangers, etc. is the acceptable works. But those very "works" are the "keeping of the law." So, spin it how we will, we just arguing against each other. And sometimes to making the Word of no effect. So, I'll just lurk and everyone can argue semantics. Everyone have a great week.

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 11:51:12 AM)
quote: If you love others you will experience God's blessing. That's the obedience God is looking for and richly rewards. Love is not a feeling. It's a determination not to neglect or hurt other people in the fulfillment of our own desires and needs. The defining characteristic of love is that it is completely unconditional and applies to those who mistreat us, and those who have no merit of their own to deserve it. If you do this, showing yourself to be a son of God, you will be blessed by God. Unbelievers "love others". It's not the loving others that gives God's blessings. It obedience that gives God's blessings. Again, just depends on the argument we want to make and from what view point we use to prove our argument. But, I do know what you are saying.

bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 12:08:47 PM)
Loving...there is a difference. One loves with the heart of Christ and the other loves with the heart of flesh. Some how I think the first is more beneficial. [:)] Bob

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 2:12:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Loving...there is a difference. One loves with the heart of Christ and the other loves with the heart of flesh. Some how I think the first is more beneficial. [:)] Bob Amen. I actually stand between the two views if I can call it that. We have had those who I found out are what you call "Sacred Name Only." They left when I didn't do things the way they thought they should. I thought, "Where's the love in that?" lol. Now we have another group of the SNO. If that's what they choose, it's okay with me. Just don't think I buy the "arguments" as I've already read them in the "books" and studied them out. I don't agree with the arguments. They are on a "mission" to convert sabbath-keepers to SNO. Will they remain? I don't know. Time will tell. But they seem to show enough love to know I'll call my lord by what I choose to. I always tell everyone, "I'll let you be you, but I expect you to let me be me." If I find the "evidence" (Proof) in Scripture, I will immediately drop my theology and follow that. So far, the very few I have encountered are more of the anti-establishment, kinda "hippy" throw back type. If we stick by one another long enough, the dull will be sharpened. Hopefully the sharper of the two won't cut-off the dull one just because they are sharp. lol. I like to think all the brethren sharpen one another. But sometimes it's like the blunt end of both at hammering at each other. LOL. There's a minimum of 2 definitions for "law" on this and other threads. sometimes more. If I'm a blunt end, it will take a lot of grinding to make me a sharp edge. The best way is when God "melts" us down and forms us anew.

Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 3:29:44 PM)
quote: Rabbi Joshua ben Korha said: "Why is 'Hear, O Israel' [Dt. 6:4-9] recited before 'If, then, you obey the commandments' [Dt. 11:13-21] in the daily prayers? To indicate that one should accept first the Kingdom of Heaven, and only afterwards the yoke of the commandments" (Mishnah, Berachot 2:2). In the rabbis view one must first get one's relationship with God straight before beginning to observe His commandments. As Dr. Buth said in concluding his Bible study, "The Shema represents a personal relationship with God. It represents loving God and having a covenant relationship with him. Only within that covenant relationship does the Law mean anything. First you have faith, are 'born again,' and then, as a reaction to God's loving you and choosing you and pulling you up out of the miry clay, you respond in good works. The Shema establishes your relationship with God. Don't do anything without having your relationship with God fixed. First, you get 'born again,' then you do good works. You renew your covenant with God in the morning and in the evening. When you go to bed you remember him and your covenant with him. When you wake up, you remember him and your covenant with him." http://blog.jerusalemperspective.com/archives/000011.html

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