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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:33:42 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 114
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
quote:
If anyone starts telling me that they have a special connection to God which allows them to know more than what has been disclosed I have to question that.
I'm with you on that.
If they make those claims I run from them as
though they dowsed me in gasoline and lit a match. lol.
Errrr..... I thought I had a Speacial phone line to the Father.  I'm just kidding, I use my wireless internet dognonit!
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:35:12 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Are you saying that the Apistolic writings are the completeness of Adoani, or what is revealed in the Apistolic writings is a limited view of Yeshua and Yeshua is the fullness of Adonai?
The Apostolic writings reveal the complete character of God. The revelation we get of Jesus from these writings along with His power is enough to understand and walk in His perfect character.
"3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. (2 Peter 1:3)
Torah was not the full revelation of God's character. Only in New Covenant revelation as recorded in the Apostolic writings do we learn about the full grace of God.
"16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:16-17)
Only in NT revelation do we see the full revelation and reality of God's grace. Jesus reveals to us and does what the law could not do:
" 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." (Acts 13:39)
Jesus plainly taught higher principles than those taught in Torah. I won't paste the passages, but they can be found in Matthew 5. He covered topics like divorce, hatred, love for enemies, oaths, an eye for an eye, and revealed God's full standard regarding those things which are well and above what the law required.
I think this passage easily show the superiority of New Covenant revelation far and above the limited revelation we had in Torah, and how that revelation has come to us in the person of Jesus Christ.
"25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory...
2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Col. 1:25-27, 2:2-4)
It's very plain in NT scripture that Christ is the final and complete Word that shows us the complete and perfect character of God. And that Word revealed is hardly just Torah revisited. Jesus is the revelation and reality of much more than just Torah. Torah was veiled and limited. The knowledge we have in Jesus is unveiled and does not limit all there is to know about God's character. The law revealed the backside of God. The Spirit reveals the face of God in Christ.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:44:22 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thanks for the reassurance. However, Spongeblog has asked me to explain to him how I have come to believe a Torah lifestyle is applicable today. I am just making sure the He and I are in agreement on each point, as we try to discover whether this road is a dead end, as He appears to believe or it leads to great blessing as I contend.
If it appears ....then it is a bit too to late ..don’t ya think?
How can you present in remez with one who dwells in The p'shat?
The problem i see with "remez" way of interpretation looking for symbols, hidden meanings, etc. we end up with miriad privately made versions of the same Torah(or Bible) verse. Another is it's flirting with occult. Messianic try to clean it up a bit, but i see kaballistic quack there as well..
Also the danger -Once one gets carried away toying with this approach , the final version of his "Torah study" often looks as if done by brain high as a kite on mind-altering drugs , you see it if you read some talmudists babble :)And if it is so wonderful, why then, pray tell, there are no rabbi agreeing with each other? Reformed do not have unified theology on anything at all ! It's good for judaism, but christianity.. i am not sure
I am glad it works for some; but i think the approach of "comparing Scripture with Scripture" wors best for a christian that recognizes other Scripture besides Torah ;)
No,Sponge doesnt use literal ,generic interpretations, he is tons smarter then that and i see him being pretty critical.
quote:
t’s like....
Proverbs 20:10 - Different weights, and different measures, both of them are alike an abomination to the
Lord.
You are big, big rascal,you know that, Gypsi? I like you for you are unconventional and as i am , seem to be writing across the lined paper all your life, and i do the same.. but sometimes you can be borderline.. you know what.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 9:24:15 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 774
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Loyal,
Come back come back where ever you are.
quote:
But they asked.....6 they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You ……….at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (He knew!)
7 And He said to them…"It is not for “you to know” ...because for some reason the disciples thought is would be Jesus who is going to restore the kingdom to Israel,
When it is plastered all over the prophetic plain that it will be God Himself who is going to do that...
And its funny how it was entioned that ….”the final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah” yet....as we can see above!.... Jesus Himself has not yet revealed to us …just what that is....
SO…Relax...Blue, it’s all deliberate!
The scripture you quoted for this is not on the same page as anything in this tread.
The disiciples were asking him if he was going to restore the nation of Israel again. Because it was written in the prophets especially in Isaiah about Israel coming back to life. The way you wrote that sounded like LDS remark. That Jesus was lower than God, infact was a brother of satan they teach.
You need to study Rev. where it states that he (Jesus) will return with great power.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 2:12:38 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Should a Christian be circumcised, then? Absolutely - and in fact, if you are uncircumcised you are lost and will suffer eternally. But this circumcision is a spiritual act, performed by the “hands of the Messiah” and received through an act of faith in His love. Indeed, in the coming Messianic kingdom, Isaiah foretold the time when only circumcised people would be allowed to enter the new city of Zion (Isa. 52:1-2). This is a picture of our future estate with Yeshua as Mashiach ben David.
Brit Milah
I was just waving, but the grass is growing so much and fast
that it is an unending battle right now. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 2:36:02 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
The list of 613 Commandments
In Judaism, there is no one definitive list of the 613 laws. In what follows, first I will present a list of 613 mitzvot according to their appearance in the Torah, and then I will provide the list given by Maimonides, the “St. Thomas Aquinas” of traditional rabbinical Judaism.
Taryag Mitzvot
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 2:43:02 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
7. Many Christian denominations profess to believe in the authority of both the "Old Testament" and the New Testament Scriptures while functionally relegating the study of the Torah to the dustheap of history. If the Jewish Scriptures are taken seriously at all, these denominational traditions attempt to explain away their clear reading (for example, the covenantal promises made to ethnic Israel) and arrogate the intent of the text as being applicable solely to the Church.
This is both shortsighted and inconsistent, since it is impossible to understand the New Testament writings (including the very Church itself) while ignoring the cultural and theological context of which it is a part. Moreover, it must be remembered that the Greek text of the New Testament derives its authority and veracity from the Jewish Scriptures, and not the other way around. In other words, while it's possible that the Hebrew Scriptures are true and the Greek Scriptures are not, it's impossible for the Greek Scriptures to be true if the Hebrew Scriptures are not. Too many Christian theologians go at this backwards, reading the New Testament (and particularly certain ideas ascribed to the Apostle Paul) as the interpretative filter for the study of the Hebrew text. Theologians of the Western traditions must consciously remember the dictum, "a text without a context is a pretext" and repent of their heresies of replacement theology and implicit anti-Semitism (for more on this, click here).
So yes, for these (and many other) reasons, it is important, even vital, for Christians to study the Torah as part of the whole counsel of God (2 Tim. 2:15).
Torah Awareness
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 3:00:43 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1243
Status: offline
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What have I discovered so far:
I do not believe that whether we do or do not observe God's feasts affects the 'born again' Christian's salvation in any way whatsoever. Also, it does no harm to study God's feasts as from what I have so far studied, I have gained a better understanding of the Bible and Jesus and this seems to be the testimony of most who have done so likewise.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 3:13:25 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2279
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
So yes, for these (and many other) reasons, it is important, even vital, for Christians to study the Torah as part of the whole counsel of God (2 Tim. 2:15).
I don't know about everyone else but I study the OT as much as the NT...never was any argument about that. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 3:24:15 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
What have I discovered so far:
I do not believe that whether we do or do not observe God's feasts affects the 'born again' Christian's salvation in any way whatsoever. Also, it does no harm to study God's feasts as from what I have so far studied, I have gained a better understanding of the Bible and Jesus and this seems to be the testimony of most who have done so likewise.
I think this is actually the "blessing" some are trying to convey.
My understanding has been greatly enhanced in the real study of the Feasts of Yahweh.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 3:25:39 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
So yes, for these (and many other) reasons, it is important, even vital, for Christians to study the Torah as part of the whole counsel of God (2 Tim. 2:15).
I don't know about everyone else but I study the OT as much as the NT...never was any argument about that.
Bob
I agree Bob.
In fact, I was in a lot of trouble in some of the churches I grew up
in because I did do so much study of the OT as well as the NT.
But, there are factions that deal only in OT,
and factions that deal only in NT.
It takes both to have a complete understanding.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 5:04:38 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Some Rules for Jewish Living
1. Never take a front-row seat at a bris.
2. If you can't say something nice, say it in Yiddish.
3. The High Holidays have nothing to do with marijuana.
4. And what's wrong with dry turkey?
5. A good kugel sinks in mercury.
6. Pork is forbidden, but a pig in a blanket makes a nice hors d'oeuvre.
7. Always whisper the names of diseases.
8. One mitzvah can change the world; two will just make you tired.
9. Never leave a restaurant empty-handed.
10. The important Jewish holidays are the ones on which alternate-side-of-the-street parking is suspended.
11. A bad matzoh ball makes a good paperweight.
12. Without Jewish mothers, who would need therapy?
13. According to Jewish dietary law, pork and shellfish may be eaten only in Chinese restaurants.
14. If you are going to whisper at the movies, make sure it's loud enough for everyone else to hear.
15. No meal is complete without leftovers.
16. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. But if you can, make sure you tell everybody what you paid.
17. The only good thing more important than a good education is a good parking spot at the mall.
18. It's not whom you know, it's whom you know that had a nose job.
19. After the destruction of the Second Temple, God created Sears.
20. WASPs leave and never say good-bye. Jews say good-bye and never leave.
21. Israel is the land of milk and honey; Florida is the land of milk of magnesia.
22. If you don't eat it, it will kill me.
23. Anything worth saying is worth repeating a thousand times.
24. Next year in Jerusalem. The year after, how about a nice cruise?
25. Spring ahead, fall back, winter in Miami.
26. Laugh now, but one day you'll be driving a big Cedilla and eating dinner at four in the afternoon.
27. There comes a time in every man's life when he must stand up and tell his mother that he is an Adult. This usually happens at around age 40.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 6:05:55 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2955
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Are you saying that the Apistolic writings are the completeness of Adoani, or what is revealed in the Apistolic writings is a limited view of Yeshua and Yeshua is the fullness of Adonai?
The Apostolic writings reveal the complete character of God. The revelation we get of Jesus from these writings along with His power is enough to understand and walk in His perfect character.
Then are you saying the entire Tanach(old testament) is unnecessary?
The things you quote seem to indicate that Yeshua embodies the fullness of Adonai and not just that which was revealed in the Apistolic Scriptures.
"3His divine power . . . (2 Peter 1:3)
"16From the fullness of his grace . . . grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:16-17)
" 39Through him everyone who believes is justified . . .(Acts 13:39)
"25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory...
2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Col. 1:25-27, 2:2-4)
Then in your conclusion seems to be clearly saying the it is Yeshua(Jesus) that is the fulleness of Adonai.
quote:
It's very plain in NT scripture that Christ is the final and complete Word that shows us the complete and perfect character of God. And that Word revealed is hardly just Torah revisited. Jesus is the revelation and reality of much more than just Torah. Torah was veiled and limited. The knowledge we have in Jesus is unveiled and does not limit all there is to know about God's character. The law revealed the backside of God. The Spirit reveals the face of God in Christ.
It appears to me that elevation the Apistolic Scriptures to the level of a perfect and complete representation of Adonai, is very close making those Scriptures into an idol. I would not say Adonai is fully contained in the whole of thw written Scriptures, let alone making that claim for the Apistolic Writings.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 6:21:28 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2955
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thanks for the reassurance. However, Spongeblog has asked me to explain to him how I have come to believe a Torah lifestyle is applicable today. I am just making sure the He and I are in agreement on each point, as we try to discover whether this road is a dead end, as He appears to believe or it leads to great blessing as I contend.
If it appears ....then it is a bit too to late ..don’t ya think?
How can you present in remez with one who dwells in The p'shat?
It’s like....
Proverbs 20:10 - Different weights,
and different measures, both of them are alike an abomination to the
Lord.
I'll work something out concerning the blessing in the hidden, secret meaning of the
text. And find a "literal" revelation ... 
....in the next post...
LG
The halting way in which you post makes it difficult to understand your point. However, judging from later posts, it appears that you believe I am saying that unsubstantiated direct revelation is somehow Scripture. If this is your understanding, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I do not believe I have said that.
What I am saying is that there are atributes of Adonai that have not been revealed to us. For example, what did Adonai do before the creation of our universe? I do not know and at this time do not need to know. However, since He is eturnal, there were things that He did before our creation. Therefore, the written Scriptures can not be a full and complete representation of Him. Otherwise, we would be aware of those attributes.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 8:21:41 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2279
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
What I am saying is that there are atributes of Adonai that have not been revealed to us. For example, what did Adonai do before the creation of our universe? I do not know and at this time do not need to know. However, since He is eturnal, there were things that He did before our creation. Therefore, the written Scriptures can not be a full and complete representation of Him. Otherwise, we would be aware of those attributes.
Amen Blue...for some reason I had completely missed you point. I for one completely agree.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 10:48:11 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thanks for the reassurance. However, Spongeblog has asked me to explain to him how I have come to believe a Torah lifestyle is applicable today. I am just making sure the He and I are in agreement on each point, as we try to discover whether this road is a dead end, as He appears to believe or it leads to great blessing as I contend.
If it appears ....then it is a bit too to late ..don’t ya think?
How can you present in remez with one who dwells in The p'shat?
It’s like....
Proverbs 20:10 - Different weights,
and different measures, both of them are alike an abomination to the
Lord.
I'll work something out concerning the blessing in the hidden, secret meaning of the
text. And find a "literal" revelation ...
....in the next post...
LG
The halting way in which you post makes it difficult to understand your point. However, judging from later posts, it appears that you believe I am saying that unsubstantiated direct revelation is somehow Scripture. If this is your understanding, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I do not believe I have said that.
What I am saying is that there are attributes of Adonai that have not been revealed to us. For example, what did Adonai do before the creation of our universe? I do not know and at this time do not need to know. However, since He is eternal, there were things that He did before our creation. Therefore, the written Scriptures can not be a full and complete representation of Him. Otherwise, we would be aware of those attributes.
Greetings,
quote:
it appears that you believe I am saying that unsubstantiated direct revelation is somehow Scripture.
No.. where did you come up with that from what I mentioned?
But since you mentioned it; direct revelation cannot be substantiated in the scripture...
for 2 reasons,
and 1 of them being mentioned in John 20 ...v30 ..saying
And "truly"..... Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples , ...........which are not... "written" .. in this book;
And the second is in v31 saying
...but...(changing the subject)....
these are written....(meaning the many signs He did which are written concerning Himself).........(is) (so).....
that you (WE) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, ....the Son of God, ...
and (in addition to)....that believing ...
.....you may have life in His name.
Those goodies mentioned is verse 30 above …come afterwards,
Because it says....
“many other signs”...Jesus truly did...which are not written… and are ONLY preformed in the (PRESENCE) of his disciples.
Now if these things that Jesus did (revealed) in the presence of His disciples; if these things were not written, …because ….the scripture were written in the way that (WE) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, ....the Son of God,
…..Then that revelation of those many signs that Jesus did cannot be substantiated in written word of the scriptures, because ….they are not written in the book!, which IMHO.. In itself ….is the direct attribute of the Father…
Is that what you meant here…?
quote:
For example, what did Adonai do before the creation of our universe? However, since He is eternal, there were things that He did before our creation.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2008 11:33:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thanks for the reassurance. However, Spongeblog has asked me to explain to him how I have come to believe a Torah lifestyle is applicable today. I am just making sure the He and I are in agreement on each point, as we try to discover whether this road is a dead end, as He appears to believe or it leads to great blessing as I contend.
If it appears ....then it is a bit too to late ..don’t ya think?
How can you present in remez with one who dwells in The p'shat?
The problem i see with "remez" way of interpretation looking for symbols, hidden meanings, etc. we end up with miriad privately made versions of the same Torah(or Bible) verse. Another is it's flirting with occult. Messianic try to clean it up a bit, but i see kaballistic quack there as well..
Also the danger -Once one gets carried away toying with this approach , the final version of his "Torah study" often looks as if done by brain high as a kite on mind-altering drugs , you see it if you read some talmudists babble :)And if it is so wonderful, why then, pray tell, there are no rabbi agreeing with each other? Reformed do not have unified theology on anything at all ! It's good for judaism, but christianity.. i am not sure
I am glad it works for some; but i think the approach of "comparing Scripture with Scripture" wors best for a christian that recognizes other Scripture besides Torah ;)
No,Sponge doesnt use literal ,generic interpretations, he is tons smarter then that and i see him being pretty critical.
quote:
t’s like....
Proverbs 20:10 - Different weights, and different measures, both of them are alike an abomination to the
Lord.
You are big, big rascal,you know that, Gypsi? I like you for you are unconventional and as i am , seem to be writing across the lined paper all your life, and i do the same.. but sometimes you can be borderline.. you know what.
Greetings,
quote:
The problem i see with "remez" way of interpretation looking for symbols, hidden meanings, etc. we end up with miriad privately made versions of the same Torah(or Bible) verse. Another is it's flirting with occult. Messianic try to clean it up a bit, but i see kaballistic quack there as well..
Di you ever see the movie Blazing Saddles, by Mel Brooks (a jew).... there is a campfire scene in there where a posse were all sitting around a camp fire eating baked beans, then one of the cowboys passed wind, and then another… and another,
So in a sense the remez is not a hidden meaning, it is a meaning that we can all relate to...for example: like sharing in the consequences of eating baked beans
quote:
If it appears ....then it is a bit too to late ..don’t ya think?
How can you present in remez with one who dwells in The p'shat?
Since Bluethread was attempting to show the value of living life according to Torah, to one who says that cannot be done,
…..Unless I am mistaken in my understanding of the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible….then that attempt to show the value is called remez..(Which actually has no value when befallen on deaf ears)  ….and means to reiterate in a meaning that we can all relate to. 
The p'shat is mainly seen on the surface, which I call surface dwellers, Who may I add…were all wiped out in the first flood, except 1.
The p'shat is whatever the scripture says is what it means; and if misunderstood becomes void of revelation (relationship with other scripture) (RCC) for example…no deviation, even at the risk of error.
quote:
The problem i see with "remez" way of interpretation looking for symbols, hidden meanings, etc.
You must be thinking of Drash, and Sod, remez has nothing to do with that.
But I will be happy to give an example of all 4 in its proper sequence as Jesus did,  ....when the time comes!
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 7/26/2008 6:14:29 PM >
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 1:51:37 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2955
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Since Bluethread was attempting to show the value of living life according to Torah, to one who says that cannot be done,
…..Unless I am mistaken in my understanding of the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible….then that attempt to show the value is called remez..(Which actually has no value when befallen of deaf ears) ….and means to reiterate in a meaning that we can all relate to.
Now, I understand. You think I am wasting my time. A woman in our community agrees with you. That is fine, we all have our various gifts. For me even if we come to an impass, I will have restated for myself and others the founding principles of my beliefs. I will also have reinforced their connection with the various things I do in my life. If I am proven wrong, I am even more blessed for I will not only have reinforced my fundimental beliefs, but will have been corrected in my improper application of them.
So, it is not necessary for me that anyone else be convinced by what I say. It is enough that I have said it and have been frankly rebuked for any errors I may have committed. In this way the two great commandments will have been fulfilled in my life. The first through the Shema; (Deut 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. . . . The second in its context (Lev 19:17) "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
Though this is not a complete definiton of love, I believe these two commandments, in context, show us the true nature of love.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 5:34:13 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
What have I discovered so far:
I do not believe that whether we do or do not observe God's feasts affects the 'born again' Christian's salvation in any way whatsoever.
All are in agreement on this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Also, it does no harm to study God's feasts as from what I have so far studied, I have gained a better understanding of the Bible and Jesus and this seems to be the testimony of most who have done so likewise.
Me included. The rub comes in when one insists you have to literally observe them, and not just learn about them, and observe them at the times that the law says to observe them. And that to do so is God's true will for you and I, because that's the obedience he rewards with the greatest manifestation of Himself to a person.
That doesn't jive with Jesus's or Paul's own words. Jesus plainly said the way you commune with Him and the Father, and enjoy the revelation and manifestation of Himself to you (the way some say can only be done through the observance of the OT Feasts) is to...love. You cannot be disobedient to the command to love and expect to enjoy the fullness of God's blessing--His presence. Biblical love is the obedience that God rewards with His presence.
Paul said God does not give the benefit of the Holy Spirit through works of the law. It comes by walking in the Spirit through believing. Which means purposely relying on the very Spirit of God to make you the kind of person God is in the person of Jesus Christ--patient, loving, joyful, kind, long-suffering, faithful, compassionate, etc. The Spirit manifests itself in a person through love, not through obedience to OT worship laws. Very plain NT teaching.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:03:14 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then are you saying the entire Tanach(old testament) is unnecessary?
No. Not for a second.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The things you quote seem to indicate that Yeshua embodies the fullness of Adonai and not just that which was revealed in the Apistolic Scriptures.
I believe Christ is the fullness of God because that's what the Bible says.
"15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him..." (Col 1:15-19)
As far as "that which was revealed in the Apistolic Scriptures", what other attribute of God's character could possibly exist that we don't already know about? We're not talking about knowledge about God that only God has and which has not been revealed yet (what the Millenium will actually look like, the nature of the deity, when the anti-christ will appear, blah, blah, blah...). We're talking about the character of God that was not fully revealed in the OT but is now fully revealed through the ministry and person of Jesus Christ as taught in the NT scriptures and as experienced through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then in your conclusion seems to be clearly saying the it is Yeshua(Jesus) that is the fulleness of Adonai.
Why not? Paul plainly said it.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It appears to me that elevation the Apistolic Scriptures to the level of a perfect and complete representation of Adonai, is very close making those Scriptures into an idol.
Not even remotely true. What you are talking about occurs when people exalt knowledge about God and glory in those things instead of glorying in His character and acting like Him in this age.
"...Knowledge puffs up (to pride), but love builds up (to peace and joy)" (1 Cor. 8:1 paranthesis mine)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I would not say Adonai is fully contained in the whole of thw written Scriptures, let alone making that claim for the Apistolic Writings.
The scriptures are how I learned about God. The Holy Spirit is how I experience Him, putting the knowledge of Him to work within me. Remember this is about God's character. Not physical qualities and truths about His deity and other mysterious atributes about His existence and His plans.
" 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. (Col. 3:8-10)
Transformation into the image (character) of God is through knowledge of that character as revealed to us in NT scripture (which was veiled in OT scripture). And that knowledge of His character is made manifest in us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 7/26/2008 6:24:54 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:07:25 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
What I am saying is that there are atributes of Adonai that have not been revealed to us. For example, what did Adonai do before the creation of our universe? I do not know and at this time do not need to know. However, since He is eturnal, there were things that He did before our creation. Therefore, the written Scriptures can not be a full and complete representation of Him. Otherwise, we would be aware of those attributes.
Just so you're not missing what I'm saying...this is about what we now know about His character and His love for us, not details about his existence and His plan for the ages.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:18:23 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The second in its context (Lev 19:17) "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
Though this is not a complete definiton of love, I believe these two commandments, in context, show us the true nature of love.
We don't see and understand the full and true nature of God's love except through the knowledge of that love as given in the NT scriptures. Only through the knowlege of Christ's work on the cross and the revelation of the Holy Spirit do we know what it truly means to love as God loves. The writers of the NT had the knowledge, inspiration, and revelation of God's love by the Holy Spirit that we might also know that same love. The OT scriptures did not disclose the extent of God's love and character as it has now been disclosed in the New Covenant.
Let's remember what started this latest round of discussion so we don't get unfocused. I don't want you to forget where you were going.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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