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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 10:50:21 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy (emphasis by Sponge)
No is doesn’t affect our salvation…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty, and in like manner many Jews are blessed in the flesh yet enjoy no Spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus…
…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty… because we do not observe what God has already given
Not according to Paul...
Paul is talking about God's promise to Abraham. Which obviously includes the literal promises as well as the spiritual. And Paul is clear on this--they are not conditional on law. Abraham secured them through believing, not works of (any) law.
The next obvious question is, "then what's the law for?"
Greetings
quote:
"then what's the law for?"
Well actually....the promise is for people of the faith, and the truth is Abe listened to God first before he even knew it was required, and did not withhold his only son,
…therefore by listening, Abraham....by the word of his own mouth “by faith believed” ...that God would supply the sacrifice (John 8:55-56)....That’s what the Law was for because Abe was a sinner.
John 8:51
33 But seek first the kingdom of God (Abe listened to God and did not withhold his only son) "and" His righteousness,)= (2 parts) ====and "all these" things (both Spiritual and “Natural” blessings = ALL) ...shall be added to you.
quote:
And Paul is clear on this--they are not conditional on law.
I wouldn’t know who you are referring to, “the Lord” has a tendency to keep me from those types of persons and it was never conditional on Law; ; but that is the order I keep in v33, and as we can see in verse 33 there is a certain order.. or Law… to the Word
And what was gathered thus far from my limited experience in tweaking the word of my mouth in my favor, the only work I am obligated to perform is by the works of my tongue, and thus far God hasn't missed a beat in doing the rest… 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:19:24 PM
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bob97
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John...the terms of the new covenant are that God says He will write His laws upon our hearts.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (Heb 8:10-11)
We are all saved under the terms of the new covenant and so I have to assume that what is good for Israel and Judah is good for this gentile.
So I guess I’m going to have to believe what God has said and accept the fact that I know these things in my heart and in the process of fully loving as commanded by Christ I will have fulfilled the statement of Paul that I have fulfilled the law.
I don't know what else to say...you just have to believe the word of God.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:36:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
John...the terms of the new covenant are that God says He will write His laws upon our hearts.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (Heb 8:10-11)
We are all saved under the terms of the new covenant and so I have to assume that what is good for Israel and Judah is good for this gentile.
So I guess I’m going to have to believe what God has said and accept the fact that I know these things in my heart and in the process of fully loving as commanded by Christ I will have fulfilled the statement of Paul that I have fulfilled the law.
I don't know what else to say...you just have to believe the word of God.
Bob
Can I have your bible? It would seem you no longer have a use for it.... :P
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:44:43 PM
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bob97
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Sorry John...but I have great need of it because I have a very long way to go. Like I say it is a process and I've only just begun. If I only could have the compassion that my wife exhibits towards others...it comes natural for her but not me. For me it's a long hard struggle.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:51:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
John...the terms of the new covenant are that God says He will write His laws upon our hearts.
So whatever man feels in his heart is God's law? This would explain Christians supporting abortion, homosexual, and other things and believeing there is no problem in doing so... And when shown that it's against God's law they just shrug and continue on...
quote:
So I guess I’m going to have to believe what God has said and accept the fact that I know these things in my heart and in the process of fully loving as commanded by Christ I will have fulfilled the statement of Paul that I have fulfilled the law.
Do you deny that the law is instructional?
quote:
I don't know what else to say...you just have to believe the word of God.
I wonder what all this means for those who claim Christ and don't love their neighbor and or God... What is written on their hearts?
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:52:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry John...but I have great need of it because I have a very long way to go. Like I say it is a process and I've only just begun. If I only could have the compassion that my wife exhibits towards others...it comes natural for her but not me. For me it's a long hard struggle.
Bob
Isn't everything you need written on your heart? Just love God and your neighbor.... Right?
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 12:57:40 AM
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bob97
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Isn't it still a process John...one of growing to be like Christ? Don't we still live in this body of flesh and aren't we still sinners?
Let me ask you a question...which do you strive to accomplish; to keep the law or grow to be like Christ?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 1:06:10 AM
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bob97
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If you do endeavor to be like Christ, which I'm sure you do, I'm pretty sure that you have no problem keeping the Ten Commandments without even thinking about them and if you were to start to break one of them… I bet the Holy Spirit would give you a rather difficult time about it.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 9:04:50 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
...we still called to obey God and His laws.
... The law is not the monkey on our back any longer its part of the means that lights the path for us to walk in Christ... Part of the biblical principles we should welcome as instructions not the role as custodian it once was...
Including this? Leviticus 15
I don't think you have a correct understanding of what it means for the law to be a guide and an instructor that leads us to the mature life of faith God wants us to grow up into. The stringent outward controls of the law are the childhood illustrations to help us grasp and learn the higher teachings of what it means to live a life of faith for God. We have several Biblical examples of this truth that help us understand the role of the law in the mature life of faith.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 9:20:06 AM
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SpongeBlog
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Leviticus 15 is one of those funny parts of the law where you have three choices on how to deal with it...
1. Observe it to the strict letter of the law, which can certainly be done, right up to the part where you sacrifice at the Temple of course.
2. Loosen it up a bit and just keep the basic principles of it, and essentially keep it the way that fits your lifestyle and beliefs, and let everyone else do it their way, too. But, I guess you could insist everyone else accept your interpretation of how to 'keep the law', too.
3. Understand them as illustrations of what really makes a person unclean, and what we really should avoid as unclean. And accepting the cleansing we have received in Christ by the Holy Spirit as fulfillment of the requirments of the law of cleanliness once and for all, the same way that we accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the law of sacrifice.
I ask everyone; which of the three have you adopted as God's intention for you as a New Covenant believer?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 7/29/2008 9:27:53 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:09:11 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Leviticus 15 is one of those funny parts of the law where you have three choices on how to deal with it...
1. Observe it to the strict letter of the law, which can certainly be done, right up to the part where you sacrifice at the Temple of course.
2. Loosen it up a bit and just keep the basic principles of it, and essentially keep it the way that fits your lifestyle and beliefs, and let everyone else do it their way, too. But, I guess you could insist everyone else accept your interpretation of how to 'keep the law', too.
3. Understand them as illustrations of what really makes a person unclean, and what we really should avoid as unclean. And accepting the cleansing we have received in Christ by the Holy Spirit as fulfillment of the requirments of the law of cleanliness once and for all, the same way that we accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the law of sacrifice.
I ask everyone; which of the three have you adopted as God's intention for you as a New Covenant believer?
The right answer is 3.
To score extra credits we will answer another question:
SB:What is observing it to the strictest letter of the Law mean , class?
- Life hardly worth living, totally worthless to us and to God, Mr. SpongeB!
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:12:53 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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Loyal
quote:
We have to ask ourselves when did Jesus restore Isreal the first time ;for Him to do it again?
The scripture reads that they asked Him if He was going to restore the KINGDOM to Israel, not the nation!!!
Okay I stand corrected on that part. But Son will return not the Father. So let get that understanding.
Here we go again on this mission of if you keep his commands or you don't. I utterly can only write that you guys who keep bringing up this ideas of fest doing. But miss what the great requirements that God ask for.
If you want to go for all the gusto. You need to be a person who has justice down pat. So you need to show mercy. Lift yokes off of peoples backs. What I can and will write that is not happening to the satisfaction of God. He had the prophets who told Israel, they killed them, stating time after time. So mankind has not change over the past five thousand years and continues do the same trash.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:16:48 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
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From: Kansas
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I'll take door number 3...do I get a new car? 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:23:03 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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SovereignIsHe,
quote:
So whatever man feels in his heart is God's law? This would explain Christians supporting abortion, homosexual, and other things and believeing there is no problem in doing so... And when shown that it's against God's law they just shrug and continue on...
Good question on that. If we as follower God of compassion would have shown what rue love really meant. It could be possible to show a person a different life style which would not want to abort a child or have sexual relationship to the same sex.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:26:37 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3106
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quote:
Spongie:The others were not the distraction. I just don't feel it's necessary to dissect this particular subject the way you have so far. But if you must do that to support your argument, then do that. It's probably best to just state your argument without first seeking my affirmation of supporting premises.
BlueT:The reason it is important to find agreement on ones premises is because, it is not reasonable to believe that there would be agreement on the conclusions based on those premises otherwise.
not to interfere, just some side comments from the peanut gallery :
Watch out for that one. There is a known logicall fallacy that often plagues debates. We did that in last years philosophy class:
A =B , lest say “DickCheney is a fish” is false. For he is, weasel jokes aside, a human. Depend on a student,in 12 to 23 logical, true steps it could be easily finally proven and concluded that he is indeed a pike or a trout.
I slept thu the part of the class where the name for such method was given,I cant recall it, but the example in simplest form is: to prove hypothetical "Anna", a really mean she-dog, is actually lovely:
1 Anna is a woman.
2. Women are lovely.
3. Anna is lovely.
Humans are not computers, and their perceptions are influenced by a lot of things, and while we agree on the second, vague, statement, it can lead to a false conclusion.
Once there is enough logical steps, anything can be proven or made "appear" right and true. That is the main principle on which Talmud is build
Religion is a game .Give any rabbi worth his salt unlimited time to talk/pages to write and he can prove anything from the same old Tanakh. Same with politics, give me enough money for campaign/ media exposure and can guarantee you the sucessful election of my neighbors cat to any public office.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:28:32 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
...If we as follower God of compassion would have shown what rue love really meant. It could be possible to show a person a different life style which would not want to abort a child or have sexual relationship to the same sex.
Yeap, Mcleod..
good point. One of my fav places in NT , in the letter to corinthians : " ...Love never fails "
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 10:43:29 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
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From: Kansas
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quote:
So whatever man feels in his heart is God's law? This would explain Christians supporting abortion, homosexual, and other things and believeing there is no problem in doing so... And when shown that it's against God's law they just shrug and continue on...
Do we really think that supporting any of these things is following Gods law which He writes in our hearts. Not everyone who professes to be of Christ belongs.
I'm really not sure what is so difficult to accept on this issue, it's almost like if we can't touch it or see it, we don't really thinks it's there. In fact that might be one of the problems with adhering to the law...it's something tangible
When God says he will do something I for one expect it to happen
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 11:37:43 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
John…Christ gave us two principle commandments to obey; Love the LORD with all your heart soul and mind and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. Paul tells us in Rom 13:8 that if we obey these two laws we will be fulfilling the laws of God.
Of course the Ten Commandments are still in effect but if we love as instructed we will have obeyed these laws.
Bob
How does one show love to their neighbor? By doing what? Obeying God's commands regarding their neighbor, right?
How does on show love to God? By do what? Obeying God's commands regarding Him and what is due Him... Right?
It doesn't just happen because we say we love God and or our neighbor...
God's standard of behavior, or code of ethics and morality wasn't endered invalid once Christ had come. It simply means that the law's role as a custodian ends where faith in Christ begins. The transgressions are abolished-not the law...
As well, the commands to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself are found in the OT as well...
John
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
For evidence of this in the US we only have to look around us.
Watch the behaviour of people on the news broadcasts.
We have thrown out the "Law" (10 Commandments) in the public arena
and the results are evident. We have to choose whether to be living by
the laws or by "free love" as it started in the 60's. I have avoided most
of what the majority have suffered because I endoctrinated myself with
the OT and NT by the age of 12. When temptation came, I would FLEE
from fornication. When opportunity arose to lie or steal, I did neither.
And if I did give in to a temptation I was quick to feel guilty and confess
and make retribution.
Want to be able to trust your wife with a neighbor?
Live next to one who has the law written in his heart and mind.
Many adulterous affairs are made with so-called godly church people.
The statistics are higher in the church world than out. So, what's the
problem?
Again, when we throw out the good sense God has given us, we
continue to chase our tails in the never ending world of arguments.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 11:46:22 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Want to be able to trust your wife with a neighbor?
Live next to one who has the law written in his heart and mind.
Or don't marry a whore, to use the biblical word. Also helps.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 11:57:02 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Odeliya:
Religion is a game .Give any rabbi worth his salt unlimited time to talk/pages to write and he can prove anything from the same old Tanakh. Same with politics, give me enough money for campaign/ media exposure and can guarantee you the sucessful election of my neighbors cat to any public office.
The rest of your post reminded me of that movie I saw,
I think it was called "The Debate" with the southern bigotry
and all. I found it pretty good and quite educational about debates.
I'm seldom questioned of my conclusions because for one:
A trapping of a debate ----- "He who cares the biggest and most
books on the platform, wins."
I cover an entire 6 foot table with my reference books as we study
on Tuesday and now Thursday nights. I did get an industrial cart
this last week to put all my books on so I can change rooms with them. LOL.
And I also make the same argument you made with the rabbis.
I "love" the KJV Bible because I can make it say anything I want it to. lol.
The fact is, any good teacher (and I use the term good in a way not
necessarily what the word means) can prove anything he wants by
the Bible. A truly "good" teacher won't prove anything by the Bible (eisegesis),
but will study and teach only what it actually says (exegesis). Problem is,
each and everyone of us think "we" are the good teacher, while other pale
in comparison to ourselves.
No matter what angle we look at anything, Yeshua (Jesus) has to be the
prime and only focal point. All scripture point to Him. The Holy Spirit only
directs us to Him.
Won't we all be totally surprised when He returns and then explains how
all this really goes down? I know I will be surprised even though I've got
it figured out already. j/k.
When He came the first time, He explained the Torah.
Yet, they still got it wrong, and we still get it wrong.
Like Bob says, it's a lifelong process. We just have to make sure we're
headed in the right direction.
I search for the absolute truths with all I have. If I'm wrong and someone
else is right, I'll find it. If I'm right and others are wrong, I'll just have to
pass them by if they don't like the ride.
Bottom line = God is good.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 2:40:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Isn't it still a process John...one of growing to be like Christ? Don't we still live in this body of flesh and aren't we still sinners?
Let me ask you a question...which do you strive to accomplish; to keep the law or grow to be like Christ?
Bob
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 2:47:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
...we still called to obey God and His laws.
... The law is not the monkey on our back any longer its part of the means that lights the path for us to walk in Christ... Part of the biblical principles we should welcome as instructions not the role as custodian it once was...
Including this? Leviticus 15
I don't think you have a correct understanding of what it means for the law to be a guide and an instructor that leads us to the mature life of faith God wants us to grow up into. The stringent outward controls of the law are the childhood illustrations to help us grasp and learn the higher teachings of what it means to live a life of faith for God. We have several Biblical examples of this truth that help us understand the role of the law in the mature life of faith.
Your opinion of my understanding aside you do beleive the law is there to instruct, right?
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 3:21:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Want to be able to trust your wife with a neighbor?
Live next to one who has the law written in his heart and mind.
Or don't marry a whore, to use the biblical word. Also helps.
You bring up a valid point.
I did say trust your wife, but I was thinking, trust the neighbor.
I have never had to worry about trusting my wife, so my thinking
is in the trust of the man next door. I wouldn't have to worry about
any temptation, only force. And in that case, most know that if you
touch my family, you're a dead man. I even tell this from the
pulpit. Whether it would be a deterrant or not may be questionable,
but I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
But in that case, even if you trusted your neighbor, the wife is mobile.
I'm still quite naive in my thought process.
My hardest hurdle in teaching is perceiving what the hearer
is hearing. The mind sets are so diverse it's hard to keep it simple. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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oh, you gun-toting, bloodthirsty hatemongering bigot! there is something else they call me in schoold re: my stance on this, but I forgot .
