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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 4:41:48 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Aren't we told, "Do not go beyond what is written" (1 Cor. 4:6)? What's been written is good enough for me. Or is that not what you meant? But I agree with the first part, that our experiences should be validated in some way by what we know from the written scriptures.
I don't think it is profitable to get into a discussion of that verse at this time. However, if you wish to us to conduct our discourse by the letter of the passage, why do you consently qualify your statements with doctrines that are not to the point of the questions. I assure you I have no hidden agenda. All I am doing is showing you how I come to my beliefs in a rational manner according to Scripture.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...to differentiate it from the actual words that proceeded from Adonai and have been copied and translated into what we now refer to as the Bible.
Now we got a problem. I wonder why we should think there is enough of a difference between what God said, or intended to say, and what actually got recorded to warrant making that distinction, but for the sake of argument we can assume they are not exact.
But how will we know that and prove it? So it's a moot point. We need to just accept the sciptures the way we have them. You can make the distinction between the written Word of God and what God actually said if you want to make a point.
But anything that isn't in the Bible we'll have to put under the category of 'personal conviction' since there is no way to confirm it as the actual spoken Word of God. The closest thing we can do to proving one's convictions is to examine evidence already in the Bible that may or may not reasonably support the possibily of those convictions.
Your last sentence is indeed the method the Berians used to verify Paul's words and Paul said that was commendable. Therefore, we are to verify what we believe by comparing it to what we have already determined to be true. That is exactly the method I am employing in this discussion.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This is important in determining whether one should consider the Bible to be Adonai or merely a "darkened glass" through which we view Adonai, as Paul refers to it.
Remember, Peter said we have everything we need to be like Him now in this age. What we see 'darkly as through a glass' is what we will be in our glorified state.
I am not prepared to discuss the specific interpretation of that phrase at this time. I was just using it to make the point that reading the written Word is not the same as seeing Adonai face to face.
quote:
This discussion is about knowing and understanding the character of Jesus, not understanding the totality of what it will be like, along with Him in our glorified state.
If you believe Yeshua's character will change, we can discuss that later. For now you are correct, we are trying to come to agreement on the character of Adonai and how he relates to us.
So, given our discussion to this point, we can conclude that there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word. If we agree on these points then we can move on.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 4:43:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
Matt 15:3-4
"Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ´Honor your father and mother´ and ´Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death´."
The command of God... Not "Your law... or "Moses said..."
I did not say that Jesus referred to the Law exclusively in those terms. BTW, the law was still in force during Jesus' lifetime.
My point was that Jesus' spoke with an authority from the Father apart from the law. Whenever He said "my commandments" He was not speaking about the commandments of the Law.
quote:
Jesus didn't do away with the law of adultery, He expanded it to include the mere thought of lust... If doing it in your heart/mind is wrong surely acting out in regards to that lust is as well... And while a Christian isn't bound to hell for doing so that doesn't mean that temporal consquences are not going to happen such as divorce...
Surely you don't think I am antinomian do you?
It was not the "mere thought of lust" that made it adultery. It was the plan of action those guys had in their minds to divorce their wives and marry someone else. He was saying essentially "from the time you looked at her to lust for her, your plan to do was adultery in your own hearts."
2nd. I never said Jesus did away with the sin of adultery. Unless, of course, you think that there is nothing forbidding adultery in the New Covenant, something I don't subscribe to.quote:
The curse of the law has been removed, yet we still called to obey God and His laws. We love our neighbor by not stealing from him, not killing him, bearing false witness, loving him like ourselves and so on... Same with God, if we follow the first tablet handed down to Moses its great advice... The law is not the monkey on our back any longer its part of the means that lights the path for us to walk in Christ... Part of the biblical principles we should welcome as instructions not the role as custodian it once was...
You offer animal sacrifices do you? Do you realize that the Bible speaks of the Old Covenant being obsolete?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/29/2008 7:44:11 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 4:50:03 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Gypsy said in post #4150quote:
Let’s take a good look at his...
I'd be happy to, if your words were clear enough that I could make heads or tells out of whatever your point is.
I hardly ever respond to your posts either because they are so vague so as to not address my points OR your point is so obscure as to be essentially incoherent to me. Sorry. I don't know how to respond to you.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/29/2008 7:45:49 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 5:40:40 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Spongie:The others were not the distraction. I just don't feel it's necessary to dissect this particular subject the way you have so far. But if you must do that to support your argument, then do that. It's probably best to just state your argument without first seeking my affirmation of supporting premises.
BlueT:The reason it is important to find agreement on ones premises is because, it is not reasonable to believe that there would be agreement on the conclusions based on those premises otherwise.
not to interfere, just some side comments from the peanut gallery :
I don't have any problem whatsoever with other people chiming into our discussion. As a matter of fact, you add very valuable insights from your actual experiences among your people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...Humans are not computers, and their perceptions are influenced by a lot of things, and while we agree on the second, vague, statement, it can lead to a false conclusion.
Yes. Exactly what I'm trying to avoid, Mr. Bluethread--being forced into a false conclusion using a faulty construct of individual arguments that can stand on their own, but may not easily and honestly be assembled into the preconceived conclusion that is being sought.
Asking questions to provoke further insight into a matter is one thing. But asking questions to make it hard to back peddle from a forced conclusion later on is not fair. But it looks like this may not be a problem from here on out.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 6:12:16 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
...We have thrown out the "Law" (10 Commandments) in the public arena
and the results are evident. We have to choose whether to be living by
the laws or by "free love" as it started in the 60's.
We are commanded to live according to 'Biblical love' (agape), not 'free love' which is nothing more than the corrupt desires of the flesh. The church has much to learn about the Apostles detailed descriptions of what Biblical love (agape) looks like.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Many adulterous affairs are made with so-called godly church people.
The statistics are higher in the church world than out. So, what's the
problem?
Well, the church has kept 9 of the 10 commandments completely intact. So it's not about rejecting the law as if it were abolished or something. Most mainline churches today are very zealous for the 10 commandments, with a slight change to the 4th. It's the church's profound ignorance about what it means to live in the Spirit that is the problem.
It was my knowledge of what Biblical love is that kept me from leaving my family and falling into adultery several years ago, praise God. Temptation is very powerful. Only the Spirit illuminates the mind and gives greater power to overcome and breaks the deception of sin. The law helps us know where to apply that power. New Testament revelation of what Biblical love is what fills in the gap left by the law. The law is not a complete description of wrong behavior, or even what godly love truly is, and has little to no value in and of itself at restraining behavior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Again, when we throw out the good sense God has given us, we
continue to chase our tails in the never ending world of arguments.
The law is a good place for unbelievers to start, but, as the church has proven, it's not the bullet-proof device for pleasing God. Not even close. Paul says law actually increases sin. That's why all through Biblical history the people of God end up worse off than the world, who essentially have no law.
The answer is relating to God through the 'new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code', as Paul says. A way which upholds the law but does not rely on the law itself to fulfill it's own agenda. As a whole, the church does not know how to fulfill the requirements of the law in the new way of the Spirit. Understanding and applying Biblical love (not carnal love) is the only thing that makes the law effective.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 6:21:06 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 6:32:04 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Your opinion of my understanding aside you do beleive the law is there to instruct, right?
Absolutely! Without a doubt. But to a limited degree. Some things we simply don't need to be instructed in anymore. There's so much more that the law didn't teach that we can only learn in the NT. For example, we really don't see the unconditional nature of God's type of love (vs. our own fleshly love) until it gets fully explained by Jesus and the Apostles. And without this understanding you'll likely not live up to the standard of God even if you keep the law. We can ask the Pharisees about this one too. Law can deceive you into thinking you are loving when in fact you are not at all.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 6:37:25 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, given our discussion to this point, we can conclude that there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word. If we agree on these points then we can move on.
I hear the train pulling out now. What's next?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 6:48:23 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I slept thu the part of the class where the name for such method was given,I cant recall it, but the example in simplest form is: to prove hypothetical "Anna", a really mean she-dog, is actually lovely:
1 Anna is a woman.
2. Women are lovely.
3. Anna is lovely.
Humans are not computers, and their perceptions are influenced by a lot of things, and while we agree on the second, vague, statement, it can lead to a false conclusion.
Once there is enough logical steps, anything can be proven or made "appear" right and true. That is the main principle on which Talmud is build 
Religion is a game .Give any rabbi worth his salt unlimited time to talk/pages to write and he can prove anything from the same old Tanakh. Same with politics, give me enough money for campaign/ media exposure and can guarantee you the sucessful election of my neighbors cat to any public office.
The falacy in your example is the reflexive use of the word "are" in your second premise. Not all women are lovely. The problem is not in rational discussion but the use of falacies. I am doing my best to avoid those falacies. Though it may be tedious to some, it is important to be clear for just this reason. "God is love" does not mean "love is God". So, I am at this time trying to differentiate between The Word which is exemplified in the written Word and the written Word which does not fully encompass all that The Word is.
Also, if you wish to warn against rationalism, than just say so. There is no need to defame them crafty Jews. By the way, I to question rationalism. That is why I am starting with the Scriptures and comparing to them all along the way.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/29/2008 7:01:39 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 7:47:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
What "law" were they keeping?
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 7:52:48 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
John...
Sponge pretty much took the words out of my mouth.
We need to be aware of the laws and apply them if needed but they should not be our main focus. As well we need to be aware of all the OT and how it applies to our life.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 7:55:48 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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The same holds true for the feasts...they hold promise to our past and future...God's events will occur in concurrence with the feasts just as they have in the past.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 8:41:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
John...
Sponge pretty much took the words out of my mouth.
We need to be aware of the laws and apply them if needed but they should not be our main focus. As well we need to be aware of all the OT and how it applies to our life.
Bob
What "law" where the Pharisees keeping?
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/29/2008 9:31:32 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
What "law" were they keeping?
John
The law of Moses.
...and then some.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 12:22:36 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe attempting to follow God's law and attempting to be like Chirst are going in two different directions... Paul said the law is holy...
I beg to differ with you. Let's ask the Pharisees. I know it sounds crazy at first glance, but law keeping can be very deceiving.
What "law" were they keeping?
John
The law of Moses.
...and then some.
They were not keeping God's law...
Christ tells them they perverted God's law in Matthew 15...
John
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 12:49:35 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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John...isn't that a part of the problem...no one could be found righteous under the law.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:12:46 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
They were not keeping God's law...
Christ tells them they perverted God's law in Matthew 15...
John
They did more than just pervert the Word of God. The Pharisees did what countless others have done before and after them. They took false comfort in the lesser things of the law like tithing, and neglected the far more important matters of the law like justice and mercy. The externals of the law were what they used to measure and maintain their relationship with God by and were deceived into thinking they were 'keeping the law'. They were in fact keeping aspects of the law but had the emphasis on the wrong things of the law, and in the end neglected altogether the true intent and purpose of the law, essentially becoming lawless in the eyes of God. But as long as they had the visible outward signs of law keeping they continued along blissfully in their deceit.
The tassels on their garments were long and flowing. Their phylacteries were huge in their misguided (if not ridiculous) attempt to comply with the law's requirement to have God's commands bound to their hands and forehead. They were zealous in proselytizing the lands around them. But all these attempts to 'keep God's commands' proved nothing in regard to their relationship with God and actually kept them from knowing and walking in what truly pleased God. The deceit of thinking they're serving and worshiping Him in the correct way prescribed by the law left little room for the conviction of not having pleased God in matters of the heart. The danger of that deceit is as real today as it was then.
Character, not 'law keeping' is what proves one's relationship with God. That's why it's so dangerous to put 'law keeping' ahead of character. The argument is law keeping is character. I say no, it's not. You can keep the law without character, but character will truly uphold the requirements of the law above and beyond the less important matters of external worship.
The whole point is we must seek after the Spirit and seek to be like Jesus in character, not focus on law keeping. That way you won't get deceived into thinking you've been pleasing to God when you really haven't been at all. What pleases God is not measured by the fulfillment of the OT laws of outward worship. Those do not make you, or show you to be in the will of God. Not even close. What pleases God is a new creation. A new creation that has the heart of Jesus that shows itself in deeds of kindness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, gentleness, forgiveness, etc. That's the 'law keeping' that should seize our hearts and minds and which truly pleases God and which leaves no matter of the law undone.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 9:52:41 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Christ in the Beatitudes teaches the difference between living the law with compassion and love as opposed to just living within the law.
He tells us that the commandments are still in effect and will not pass away; but he also says that although we are commanded not to murder which is a sin, it is just as much a sin to even be angry with someone. In either case we are subject to judgment.
So living the law without love makes us just as guilty as having broken the commandments.
That was what the Pharisees were guilty of...they had no compassion or love for those they were guiding. I thinks that what made them guility.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 10:42:23 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
What "law" where the Pharisees keeping?
They were doing alright with the law to some degree. Where they failed badly in was the attitude department. They would get on their high horeses. Thinking hey were better than the next person. Because they would keep the laws and even some more for good measure. Then when some one needed help. They would close their eyes and walk away.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 11:25:31 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5723
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
...We have thrown out the "Law" (10 Commandments) in the public arena
and the results are evident. We have to choose whether to be living by
the laws or by "free love" as it started in the 60's.
We are commanded to live according to 'Biblical love' (agape), not 'free love' which is nothing more than the corrupt desires of the flesh. The church has much to learn about the Apostles detailed descriptions of what Biblical love (agape) looks like.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Many adulterous affairs are made with so-called godly church people.
The statistics are higher in the church world than out. So, what's the
problem?
Well, the church has kept 9 of the 10 commandments completely intact. So it's not about rejecting the law as if it were abolished or something. Most mainline churches today are very zealous for the 10 commandments, with a slight change to the 4th. It's the church's profound ignorance about what it means to live in the Spirit that is the problem.
It was my knowledge of what Biblical love is that kept me from leaving my family and falling into adultery several years ago, praise God. Temptation is very powerful. Only the Spirit illuminates the mind and gives greater power to overcome and breaks the deception of sin. The law helps us know where to apply that power. New Testament revelation of what Biblical love is what fills in the gap left by the law. The law is not a complete description of wrong behavior, or even what godly love truly is, and has little to no value in and of itself at restraining behavior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Again, when we throw out the good sense God has given us, we
continue to chase our tails in the never ending world of arguments.
The law is a good place for unbelievers to start, but, as the church has proven, it's not the bullet-proof device for pleasing God. Not even close. Paul says law actually increases sin. That's why all through Biblical history the people of God end up worse off than the world, who essentially have no law.
The answer is relating to God through the 'new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code', as Paul says. A way which upholds the law but does not rely on the law itself to fulfill it's own agenda. As a whole, the church does not know how to fulfill the requirements of the law in the new way of the Spirit. Understanding and applying Biblical love (not carnal love) is the only thing that makes the law effective.
Again, because of your one and only view point you missed my point.
But, that's okay.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 11:47:59 AM
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labellavita
Posts: 5
Joined: 7/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Labellavita you would do well to pay attention to the words of Spongeblog. Many of the things you spoke of were dealt with already.
He (Spongeblog) saidquote:
Invariably, when a new person comes into the thread we pretty much have to start over. And I guess that's okay as long we get right down to the point of contention.
oh, boy, this was polite. I gave up reading about 20 pages into this. So sorry I'm making you deal with things again. And while Spongeblog may know alot, I don't know him and rely on my bible thank you.
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 11:50:58 AM
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labellavita
Posts: 5
Joined: 7/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We are not under the law. Paul says that Christians are not under law but under grace.
forgot to respond to this.
So Paul overrules what Jesus said?
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
All is not fulfilled yet.
The way to Him is the narrow way, not the wide way. I also think about who is it the dragon is concerned with and who he makes with. It says in Rev 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. He is concerned with those that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. Its BOTH. Not one or the other. Also, those that obey the commandments have the right to the Tree of Life (Rev 22:14).
Yes, we are saved by grace, but God expects something out of us beyond 'faith.' If he was that tough on the ancient Hebrews, why do we think he's going to be easy peasy on us?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 12:41:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5723
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
And while Spongeblog may know alot, I don't know him and rely on my bible thank you.
Aww. A true Berean.
Welcome to Crosswalk.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 1:15:16 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, given our discussion to this point, we can conclude that there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word. If we agree on these points then we can move on.
I hear the train pulling out now. What's next?
I contend the above is what is meant by "The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Second, If everything else is finite, then we are finite and that which is finite is subject to that which is infinite. Thus, we have the second half of the greatest commandment. You shall love Adonai Elehenu(The Lord your God) with all your heart, with all you soul and with all your might. Which only makes sense since it is in Him we have our being.
If you agree with this statement, then we can agree on what the greatest commandment means. We then can look at how we fulfill(fully exemplify) that commandment.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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