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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 5:33:31 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
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quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath. I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
< Message edited by sunofone -- 3/16/2009 6:58:06 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 7:01:51 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2927
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
So I don't see where Gentiles are to get in line with the Old Covenant that God gave the Jews,rather Jew and Gentile alike are to participate in the one and only binding Covenant of the new.
Where am I off and why please.
Things took off here and there were many things that were said in the interum. I hope you can return to our line of discussion. I am responding to your post #4859.
If Adonai's commandments are only for the jews, why would Adonai require more of them than He requires of us. Isn't this the converse of Yeshua's criticisim of some of the Pharasees. (Mt 23:4) "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Some denigh salvation to those who lived before the incarnation, because they could not keep the commandments, yet believe they are saved even though they choose to pay little or no attention to the same commandments.
Now, if the commandments are then not for salvation, what are they for? Paul tells us what they are for. (2Ti 3:16-17) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Here, Paul is talking about the Tanach. That is the only Scripture available to Timothy as he was growing up. Therefore, if all Scripture was valuable to Timothy for these reasons after Shavuot(Penticost), why would it not be profitable for us today for the same reasons?
Regarding what is called communion, I would be willing to discuss my veiw of how that ties into the Tanach if you like, but let's not let that interfere with the weightier matter of yea or nay regarding keeping the commandments.
Regarding the statement regarding the bread being substituted for the lamb is new to me. The bread traditionally is the middle piece of a stack of three motzah. There is no clear explanation of the this practice in judaism, but it does look very similar to the middle manifestation of Adonai, that is Yeshua.
Regarding the "drinking of blood", the cup is full of symbolism. In the Seder, drops are transfered from it to a plate to represent the tears of sorrow we shed for the eygptians who had to endure the plagues. One does not say we are drinking tears. Therefore, in context, this is clearly a symbolic gesture to identify Yeshua with the Pesach Seder and the covenant. Symbolism is not bad or of little value, but is very important in reenforcing knowledge in the heart of man. If this were not the case nike would not have a swoosh and people would not wear ribbons and bracelets to remember cancer victims.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 3/16/2009 7:09:01 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 8:33:22 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
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quote:
If Adonai's commandments are only for the jews, why would Adonai require more of them than He requires of us. Isn't this the converse of Yeshua's criticisim of some of the Pharasees. (Mt 23:4) "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Some denigh salvation to those who lived before the incarnation, because they could not keep the commandments, yet believe they are saved even though they choose to pay little or no attention to the same commandments.
Now, if the commandments are then not for salvation, what are they for? Paul tells us what they are for. (2Ti 3:16-17) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Here, Paul is talking about the Tanach. That is the only Scripture available to Timothy as he was growing up. Therefore, if all Scripture was valuable to Timothy for these reasons after Shavuot(Penticost), why would it not be profitable for us today for the same reasons? I like your spunk Blue  Let me say that the question you pose is imho a strawman.This is what Jesus says concerning requirements: 25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. 27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Then lets look at what the Apostles stated concerning weight:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Concerning the last part of your post see my previous response to this here: “God's moral law proceeds from the righteousness of God and can never be abolished.The Mosaic Law as an expression of this moral law,has been “done away” in that it has been supersede by another law,i.e. The standards of grace revealed in the N.T. The believer is now under laws.(Romans 8:2-4,1 Cor;9:21)
The Mosaic law still constitutes a revelation of the righteousness of God and remains as a part of scripture which is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect,thoroughly furnished unto all good works”(2 Tim.3:16-17,Romans.15:4
So by stating that we have a new Covenant,the scriptures are not declaring that all contents of the Old are annulled.
I hope I'm not coming off as argumetative,I'm just trying to match your spunk
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 8:42:11 PM
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JStucki76
Posts: 290
Joined: 12/14/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath. I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
The point outlined in Exodus is that God worked 6 days and rested one. I don't see what difference it makes which day that is.
Surely you are aware that the calendar has been changed many times and that what we view now as the 7th day probably isn't the same 7th day that God originally rested, or the same 7th day that they had when the 10 commandments were given. And the Jewish day is a lunar one, not solar. Do you observe Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? We're chasing the wind here. The point of Sabbath is the sanctification of time, not some effort to adhere to an old practice that we can't even be sure of the timing on.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 8:55:02 PM
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JStucki76
Posts: 290
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai's commandments are only for the jews, why would Adonai require more of them than He requires of us. Isn't this the converse of Yeshua's criticisim of some of the Pharasees. (Mt 23:4) "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Some denigh salvation to those who lived before the incarnation, because they could not keep the commandments, yet believe they are saved even though they choose to pay little or no attention to the same commandments.
I disagree with your interpretation. Adonai can require different things from the Jews if he wants; that's his prerogative. He gave them the law to set them apart. I believe they are to remain set apart even today. And Yeshua's statement here is not about the law, it's about some of the rather oppressive and unnecessary traditions that had developed in the Pharasaic teachings, and the pride that many Pharisees felt instead of desire to help their countrymen.
I'm not categorically anti-Pharisee, and I understand what the good intentions of those traditions were originally. And I don't deny salvation to people in the OT for not keeping the commandments. To my knowledge, nobody succeeded. But 1.) there was a sacrificial system in place, and 2.) People served God in faith and love back then too, just like they do now.
quote:
Now, if the commandments are then not for salvation, what are they for? Paul tells us what they are for. (2Ti 3:16-17) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Here, Paul is talking about the Tanach. That is the only Scripture available to Timothy as he was growing up. Therefore, if all Scripture was valuable to Timothy for these reasons after Shavuot(Penticost), why would it not be profitable for us today for the same reasons?
I find the law and prophets extremely profitable even though I don't keep kosher, or celebrate Pesach in Jerusalem, or any number of other laws.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 9:20:56 PM
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gillian79
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the Law (or Law of Moses) as it really most of it begin rites custems of Jews in remberaning their freedom from eypyt. While customs and the like are for Jews but Gentiles are free from that so it unessuracy for them, but all morals in Law of morals naturelly appeal to Gentiles to keep just same as most saints before Law of Moses.
like 8 days cirusamtances, both rites and health of the time, Paul said not forced on Gentiles but Paul did cirsumatnced Mark in agreement to appeal jews hearts over Mark begin foreign. maybe something with going to certin place for Mark.
something that Paul shouted at Peter for his old jewry habit days.propley not shouted! but rebuke publicly over age long bahaviour of gentlies eating dinners with Jews.
Paul wrote over confustion early christianity faced. that it not nessuarcy for keep woman in veil if she choose not to, for her hair is her glory and her covering. I think that chapter in Romans 14 or 15 or before that. (was appealed to Jews saved demand using OT agrument as it was written in OT)
Jesus said to teachers, the reason Moses wrote this (partilcuer) law is because your heart was hard.
the image of Casur on coin, teachers tried to tricked Jesus relate with Law, Jesus respone as throught NT theme, flexible give his what his give other what his.
other time the tax Romans put on Jews to pay which they dislike doing so. when that time came, Peter asked Jesus, " Master should we pay the tax?" Jesus said something along line of that he disagree with tax but
still, obey the law as it asked of you, go open the mouth of fish you will find the coin in it mouth and give it to tax offical.
remind me of OT that when God was Israel King, when Israel seeing all nations have their own kings demand for a king, Samual disagreed and naturelly God disagreed, saying having a king mean tax, labour os on etc, I sure in God and Samual eyes this is devil ish agenda to replace God in more restrict sense, but still, God spoke to Samuel if Isreal so demand then they have the king. God went by Samuel to search a godly heart man, that Saul once was.
flexible by freewill ever it not God wish many time throughout the Bible.
people saved before Law was in many way Gentiles do today apart from any offerings rites since Christ as Lamb in offering up on Cross by own will.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2009 10:12:24 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
The point outlined in Exodus is that God worked 6 days and rested one. I don't see what difference it makes which day that is.
Surely you are aware that the calendar has been changed many times and that what we view now as the 7th day probably isn't the same 7th day that God originally rested, or the same 7th day that they had when the 10 commandments were given. And the Jewish day is a lunar one, not solar. Do you observe Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? We're chasing the wind here. The point of Sabbath is the sanctification of time, not some effort to adhere to an old practice that we can't even be sure of the timing on.
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Let me start off by saying I appreciate your thoughtful responses,and while I'm inclined to disagree with your stance concerning Sabbath I can appreciate the points you raise.
Let me provide you some information that may prove useful concerning Sabbath and calendar days here:
1. The Israelite Calendar: The Israelite calendar was lunisolar, that is to say time was measured on the basis of the new moon (the rotation of the moon around the earth) and also the sun (the rotation of the earth around the sun). A lunar calendar of 12 months is about 11 days shorter than the solar calendar, which is approximately 365 days. In the ancient world this was solved by adding an extra month seven times in 19 years. In the Bible the moon calendar was used to fix the time for the festivals—for instance, 14 days after the new moon came Passover (Num. 28:16). Apparently some people are arguing that the Sabbath itself was to be observed seven days after the first day of the month.
2. The Sabbath and the Moon: At the beginning of the twentieth century the connection between the Sabbath and the moon was proposed and defended by a number of critical scholars. They rejected the biblical origin of the Sabbath and suggested that its origin was related to several “evil days” in the Babylonian calendar, including the day of the full moon, during which people rested. Those days occurred in a sequence of about seven days. Further study indicated that the so-called “evil days” were not a sequence of seven days; they were the first, seventh, fourteenth, nineteenth, twenty-first, and twenty-eighth days of the month. That theory has since been abandoned.
3. Genesis 1 and the Sabbath: The origin of the biblical Sabbath is definitely connected with the creation week. It was instituted by God three days after the creation of the moon (Gen. 1:14; 2:2), not the seventh day after the first day of the month. It was to function independent of the month on a specific sequence of days unconnected from the moon and the sun, but uniquely grounded in God’s power to rule over time. The seventhness of the Sabbath is related to the passing of time, from the beginning of God’s creating activity on Planet Earth to its close. This is indeed a unique divine act, a fragmentation of time in a sequence of seven days exclusively fixed and governed by God Himself.
4. Sabbath and Festivals: A lunar Sabbath would imply that the Sabbath is part of the Israelite festivals, but that is not the case. The seventh-day Sabbath was instituted long before the festivals were given to the Israelites. The Hebrew term translated “feasts, festivals,” is môcadîm, and it means “fixed/appointed time, meetings.” It refers to different activities that were not necessarily dated by the lunar calendar (e.g., Jer. 8:17; Hosea 2:9). Even if one were to argue that the term applies to the Sabbath, it does not follow that the time for the Sabbath was fixed by the moon (cf. Lev. 23:2). Besides, the Bible makes clear that the Sabbath is to be differentiated from the festivals (Lev. 23:37, 38).
Finally, the Sabbath rest was different from the rest required during the ceremonial Sabbaths. Leviticus 23:3 states that during the Sabbath the Israelites were “not to do any work.” But during the time of the sacred assembly the people were commanded to “do no regular work” (23:8, 21, 25, 35, 36, NIV). This indicates that there was a type of work they were allowed to do during the festivals that was forbidden during the Sabbath.
Although the intentions of those promoting the lunar Sabbath may be good, they have to be aware of the fact that they are unintentionally introducing and promoting a sabbath rest that is different from the biblical seventh-day Sabbath rest.
I personally believe that the seventh day is blessed and sanctified and that God so wanted us to remember specifically the seventh day that he saw fit to include it in the Ten Commandments.
So while I appreciate the points you raise,I still have to ask myself whose report should I believe?
This is not directed at you personally,but I believe the Bible says that we are let everyman be a liar and God be true.
If there is any truth to what you say that we can't know what specific day is Sabbath what on earth was Jesus and the Disciples doing observing Sabbath?Why didn't they conclude that knowing exactly what the seventh day was ,was hopeless and just practice Sabbath on any day of the week?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 12:15:59 AM
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gillian79
Posts: 55
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath.I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Jesus rose on early dawn sunday.
why else said there on the 8 day of the week, because in Jewish time Suaturday in memory of Eypgt. Arabham and before are in keeping of sabbath (there are serveal) sunday as NT 8th day of the week.
in Jews sabbath sunraise to sunset like evething with OT respert half full. once in three years a Sabbath of full day sunday they do. the seven days. by Jews daily sunset sunraise sabbath to timing sabbath on christ death happen to be high sabbath now hence christian clander to full day since Christ. As Sat and Sun sabbath rolled in one day, overlapping sunraise and sunset sabbeth time limited.
Two days by man time lenght of sabbath and orignal full day rolled into one by gap of three hours overlapped. the dawn before raising of sun beginning of daily sabbath.
8th respert on facts not earth suddenly add a day but two days rolled in one from jewish half day to christin full day. that pentcost every sunday we see full day. for Jewish it every three years by a partilcur sabbth in Levis called The Pescost, meaning fifty days.
who good at maths? im not. gotta to look and count time again soon.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 7:53:03 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gillian79
quote:
quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath.I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Jesus rose on early dawn sunday.
why else said there on the 8 day of the week, because in Jewish time Suaturday in memory of Eypgt. Arabham and before are in keeping of sabbath (there are serveal) sunday as NT 8th day of the week.
in Jews sabbath sunraise to sunset like evething with OT respert half full. once in three years a Sabbath of full day sunday they do. the seven days. by Jews daily sunset sunraise sabbath to timing sabbath on christ death happen to be high sabbath now hence christian clander to full day since Christ. As Sat and Sun sabbath rolled in one day, overlapping sunraise and sunset sabbeth time limited.
Two days by man time lenght of sabbath and orignal full day rolled into one by gap of three hours overlapped. the dawn before raising of sun beginning of daily sabbath.
8th respert on facts not earth suddenly add a day but two days rolled in one from jewish half day to christin full day. that pentcost every sunday we see full day. for Jewish it every three years by a partilcur sabbth in Levis called The Pescost, meaning fifty days.
who good at maths? im not. gotta to look and count time again soon.
With respect to your post,I'm not entirely certain I understand your point.If I'm correct your stating that since Jesus rose on what would be technically described as Saturday evening,or the ending of the sunset Sabbath,essentially known as Sunday.That from Saturday evening to Sunday evening would essentially be considered Sabbath,to coincide with the resurrection of Jesus?
I think that's what I'm getting at least.
If I'm correct in what I'm stating,this would be my caution.Let's do what God said and no more.
This is what God said in respect to the day.The seventh day he blessed and sanctified,then he commanded that we remember it and keep it holy.He later described the hours of observation as Friday Sunset to Saturday sunset.
I realize that we are all passionate about the resurrection of Jesus and rightfully so.But this is what Jesus said we should do to honor his death.Practice communion,this he said we are to do in remembrance of him.
He never said or asked us to hallow the day of his resurrection as the Father had and has already sanctified the Seventh Day.If Jesus didn't ask us to change the day to hallow God on,who are we too?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 8:28:46 AM
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JStucki76
Posts: 290
Joined: 12/14/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I personally believe that the seventh day is blessed and sanctified and that God so wanted us to remember specifically the seventh day that he saw fit to include it in the Ten Commandments.
If there is any truth to what you say that we can't know what specific day is Sabbath what on earth was Jesus and the Disciples doing observing Sabbath?Why didn't they conclude that knowing exactly what the seventh day was ,was hopeless and just practice Sabbath on any day of the week?
Fair enough, but they were Jewish. And to me, that makes all the difference in the world.
I do not agree with the 7th Day Adventist position that the 10 commandments were for all men and the others were only for the Jews. Obviously some of them were for all men, but those were not restricted to the 10. And I see no reason why all the 10 should be viewed that way categorically (I will concede that the other 9 should be followed). I do not believe it is a sin for me to ignore Sabbath completely; I observe it because it is good, not because it is right. I see it as a gift rather than a command.
We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 9:11:40 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JStucki76
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I personally believe that the seventh day is blessed and sanctified and that God so wanted us to remember specifically the seventh day that he saw fit to include it in the Ten Commandments.
If there is any truth to what you say that we can't know what specific day is Sabbath what on earth was Jesus and the Disciples doing observing Sabbath?Why didn't they conclude that knowing exactly what the seventh day was ,was hopeless and just practice Sabbath on any day of the week?
Fair enough, but they were Jewish. And to me, that makes all the difference in the world.
I do not agree with the 7th Day Adventist position that the 10 commandments were for all men and the others were only for the Jews. Obviously some of them were for all men, but those were not restricted to the 10. And I see no reason why all the 10 should be viewed that way categorically (I will concede that the other 9 should be followed). I do not believe it is a sin for me to ignore Sabbath completely; I observe it because it is good, not because it is right. I see it as a gift rather than a command.
We're probably going to have to agree to disagree here...
I love your Spirit,and your thoughtful responses.Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone to keep Sabbath.I'm merely asking for any evidence that might be available to disregard the Fourth Command.Thank you again for the discussion.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 11:12:23 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
For example, the Sabbath requirement can be 'kept' in that same way--in a non literal way, but which still fulfills the literal requirement. There are solid precedents in scripture for understanding our release from literal worship requirements in this way.
I don't see any difference whatsoever between the church that believes you have to be baptised by submersion (not sprinkling) and the church that believes that the 7th day is the only truly approved day of meeting of the church (or some other old covennat procedural requirement). Both are meaningless issues that have nothing to do with what God told us really counts--love for others, made possible by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. That is the true expression and manifestation of saving faith that pleases God and justifies us (shows us to be saved) before men. Your post was beautifully stated that I find myself just wanting to say amen!However  I have to ask you to revisit this portion of your post I sliced out.
While I'm all for Spiritual observation over literal,or better stated Spiritual observation in conjunction with physical.I still wonder if it's correct to say or hold that Spiritual replaces literal in all instances,i.e. baptism,communion,Ten Commandments?
We have clear teaching in the Bible that explains the end of the worship system that accompanied the old priesthood. The argument is, "what exactly does that include". Baptism and Communion, as we understand and practice them, are practices that accompany the new Priesthood of Jesus. Until we receive notice of another change in the priesthood and a corresponding change to the worship that accompanies that new priesthood, Baptism and Communion will continue to be a part of how we worship God. But they hardly represent 'law' as the worship requirements of the old way did.
It's easy to see how these practices hardly compare in weight to the relational practices required in the old covenant. No relational condition is placed on the observance of these new practices whatsoever (of course some in the church will argue that point). They were given as a symbol and commemoration of a reality we already have in the finished work of Christ. Partaking or not partaking can not change the reality that already exists that these things represent.
That was not true of the OT worship requirements. There were very specific and significant, even capital punishments for not observing the worship requirements of the old covenant. Saved or not saved, the punishments were severe for not following old covenant worship requirements. Nobody disagrees that that is not true in the least today because of the work of Christ. We are no longer bound to that system of required worship requirements because of the work of Christ that replaces our work and effort demanded by that system.
It's easy to say those things did not save a person and that salvation has always been by faith. And that is true, but, given the level of revelation at that time, obedience to those binding requirements was the expected proof and manifestation of believing what God said. In other words, what truly faithful person at that time, in a real relationship with God, would not follow those stipulations????? What provision of the law provided release from the requirements of OT worship because of faith??? That release comes from outside the law, being hidden until faith should be revealed to the world through the work of Christ, though some experienced it by grace before it's official entry into the world through Christ--ie, David. David's crisis of being condemned by the law is what led him to faith and made him realize it isn't about the literal. But until then he had no excuse whatsoever to not fulfill the literal.
For us today, we have this unhindered knowledge, that they didn't have then, that effectively releases us from those old expected expressions of being in relationship with God (sacrifices, feasts, etc.). Literal circumcision is a perfect example of what I'm saying. What truly believing person would not circumcise their children after reading Genesis 17, not knowing that circumcision of the heart is really the sign of being in covenant with God???? Not obeying God's command to be circumcised at that time would have been nothing short of unbelief! And before his crisis, what knowledge of faith and grace allowed David to understand it wasn't about the literal sacrifices? Any disobedience to the laws of sacrifice before his crisis would have been nothing short of unbelief. For us today, we have the knowledge that allows us to not have to follow those literal commands, being made possible by the revelation of faith. A faith once hidden, but now revealed.
My argument is, it's the same for the other old covenant worship requirements. Knowledge of what those requirements represent is what we have today that releases us from the literal. Faith has come and released us from the requirements of the worship laws. Circumcision is the precedant for understanding what I'm saying. But without the knowledge of faith, you have a complete and total obligation to those old requirements--your obedience to them being the expected expression of your relationship with God. But with the coming of faith, OT worship requirements are simply not the expected expression of being in relationship with God--that is for us who have the complete revelation and understanding of faith. This is the message of Galatians. Paul doesn't correct their attitude about their law keeping. He leads them away from law observance and to what the true expression of faith is, now that faith has been revealed. There are other examples in the Bible of being led to new truth, not being corrected in old truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I believe that we are justified by faith in Christ apart from the law,but does that mean we are free to disregard physical commands mentioned?
Can we just not baptize anyone physically,not participate in the Lord's supper physicially,not obey any of the Ten commandments physically?
Of the examples given, I don't believe you are required to baptise and do the Lord's supper as some understand 'required'. But for the reasons given above, it's just what we do. But as I said, it's hardly a matter of binding law (for those of us in the church who understand that) as the old covenant requirements were. They are symbols, not conditions for being in covenant with God with corresponding rewards and punishments. Always have been. Those who make them out to be that are mislead.
The bulk of the Ten Commandments is how we relate to each other. And even the worship requirements of the Ten are fulfilled when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit. The continuing debt we owe to men is to love. I can't think of a way to not literally do that. As the Bible teaches, real love is evidenced by the action it takes, not just by the presence of sincere intentions alone.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 3/17/2009 1:56:27 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2009 7:21:30 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I like your spunk Blue Let me say that the question you pose is imho a strawman.
I am glad you can accept my statements in the spirit in which they are given. Some have doubted my maturity interpreting "spunk" as violating the fruit of the Spirit. I am not making this observtion as a justification of my argument, but an illustration of the burden that many evangelicals believe Israel needed to bear in order to be saved.
Yeshua does say, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." However, He also told us in the wilderness (Deut. 30:11-14) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."
"Then lets look at what the Apostles stated concerning weight:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
11 "No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
This is the argument in Acts 15 as noted in verse 1. One can not be saved by HaTorah. The jew is not permitted to require circumcision to verify salvation any more than evangelical can require baptism to verify salvation. My advise to anyone who is in a community where baptism is presumed to be a part of salvation is to not be baptised. This is not saying that baptism is not important, It is just not essential for salvation.
quote:
Concerning the last part of your post see my previous response to this here: “God's moral law proceeds from the righteousness of God and can never be abolished.The Mosaic Law as an expression of this moral law,has been “done away” in that it has been supersede by another law,i.e. The standards of grace revealed in the N.T. The believer is now under laws.(Romans 8:2-4,1 Cor;9:21)
Verse one is crucial here, because it sets the context for the whole chapter.
(Rom 8:1-4) "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"
Yes, we are under no condemnation. However, Adonai has attached certain blessings and curses to various activities in this life.
1 Cor 9:21 "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law."
He is not becoming one without HaTorah. He is becoming like one not having HaTorah, for a purpose. It is useless to argue HaTorah with those who are not aware of it. Therefore, He sets aside any discussion of HaTorah until such time as those without it have accepted Adonai.
quote:
I hope I'm not coming off as argumetative,I'm just trying to match your spunk
I have no problem with argumentation as long as we agree to abide by the laws of proper rational discourse and accept comments in the spirit in which they are given. Pardon the puns. 
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 3/17/2009 7:38:06 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 10:32:52 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Of the examples given, I don't believe you are required to baptise and do the Lord's supper as some understand 'required'. But for the reasons given above, it's just what we do. But as I said, it's hardly a matter of binding law (for those of us in the church who understand that) as the old covenant requirements were. They are symbols, not conditions for being in covenant with God with corresponding rewards and punishments. Always have been. Those who make them out to be that are mislead.
The bulk of the Ten Commandments is how we relate to each other. And even the worship requirements of the Ten are fulfilled when we walk in the fruit of the Spirit. The continuing debt we owe to men is to love. I can't think of a way to not literally do that. As the Bible teaches, real love is evidenced by the action it takes, not just by the presence of sincere intentions alone. Once again you've delivered a great post Blog.I've isolated a portion of your post that I feel needs further examination,at least on my part.
You say baptism,and communion is just what we do,but it's not binding as in law and I get exactly what you mean.
In the Old Covenant you didn't have freedom to interpret/practice law Spiritually,without first having practiced it literal/physically.Whereas in the New Covenant we are at liberty to practice the law Spiritually only.
To qualify the previous statement,I'm speaking of the commandments that accompanied the Ten Commandments,not the Ten Commandments themselves.
What I question Blog is our obedience/responsibility to observe/practice what God has commanded/requested.
That is if Jesus commanded us to baptize,and requested that we participate in Holy Communion.Does that not become a law within itself?In other words is there any legitimate escape from willful disobedience of it?
Mind you I'm not saying or exempting extenuating circumstances like for instance the thief on the cross,John when he was on the Island of Patmos.I'm talking about having the ability to do what is commanded/requested and not following through because we feel we are at liberty to follow it Spiritually only.
If this is true then I can see a case being made for following the Ten Commandments Spiritually only,not physically.
Although as you stated it is impossible to not act love out Physically.That being said,how do we not physically act out the Fourth Commandment?
How is it that Command gets tossed into the Spiritual only category?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 1:34:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5756
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Thought I share something I found today.
LINK
If nothing else, they got some nice pictures of the land...........lol.
And the history of some finns was interesting.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 2:15:11 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
am glad you can accept my statements in the spirit in which they are given. Some have doubted my maturity interpreting "spunk" as violating the fruit of the Spirit. I am not making this observtion as a justification of my argument, but an illustration of the burden that many evangelicals believe Israel needed to bear in order to be saved.
Yeshua does say, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." However, He also told us in the wilderness (Deut. 30:11-14) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." Hey Blue.It is clear to me that you have an understanding of scripture that to put quite simply,differs from mine 
The same can be said for all of us here right? The thing I appreciate in accepting this reality,is that it alleviates the need to discuss or argue an issue where disagreement will likely never be had,or found.
Having said that,I feel we've come to the end of the road regarding our current discussion again,as I have nothing further to add.You of course are welcome to ask,or inquire of me anything you think might prove helpful in your understanding/walk with God.
Thanks for the discussion.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 4:03:46 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Having read through some of your arguments, it would be beneficial to read up on 2nd Temple history, the beliefs of the pharisees (it wasn't all bad), the politics and overall setting and continue searching the scriptures. If you think the answer Blue gave regarding Acts 15:1, is a "straw man" argument...well that's your position and take and you are certainly entitle to have it. If you can't see that the whole context of this verse is a salvation issue, and that the scriptures (TaNaKH) which Paul referred to was the "Old Testament" as the NT was not even written or canonized then I as I said before keep studying and searching. Then once you see it keep studying and searching! LOL!
That's my take and I'm not changing! LOL!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 6:02:56 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 320
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath. I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one which continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
Gal 3:11 Now that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Maybe this will help. Then again, maybe not.
_____________________________
"It is vain to speak of approaching judgment when finding our place, our portion, and our enjoyment in the very scene which is to be judged." - C.H. Mackintosh
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 10:11:53 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Having read through some of your arguments, it would be beneficial to read up on 2nd Temple history, the beliefs of the pharisees (it wasn't all bad), the politics and overall setting and continue searching the scriptures. If you think the answer Blue gave regarding Acts 15:1, is a "straw man" argument...well that's your position and take and you are certainly entitle to have it. If you can't see that the whole context of this verse is a salvation issue, and that the scriptures (TaNaKH) which Paul referred to was the "Old Testament" as the NT was not even written or canonized then I as I said before keep studying and searching. Then once you see it keep studying and searching! LOL!
That's my take and I'm not changing! LOL!
L I appreciate your concern,and feedback.The strawman was not the Acts 15:1 interpretation,it was his argument for God requiring more of the Jews then he does the Christian.
I understand quite clearly what Paul was referencing to Timothy.If after all I've shared so far convinces that I don't understand simple concepts such as this,then I have not represented myself well at all.
As to Blues interpretation of Acts 15:1,I decided not to discuss it further as it is clear that we don't see eye to eye on what the verses mean,and that's alright.There's no need to argue and debate with someone over their understanding of scripture.
If something is wrong with my,or Blues understanding of Scripture,the Spirit of God is a much more capable teacher than I am.So I leave it at that.It's not my job to straighten out anyones theology,or understanding of Scripture.
I'm just here sharing,and seeking discussion and enlightenment.I'm not trying to convert,or deconvert anyone.
I know I've been accused of this once before,but I'm not interested in winning anything here.I've already won.
As always I appreciate the discussion.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2009 10:14:48 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
Observing Sabbath on Sunday or Wednesday or whatever instead of Saturday is not disobeying Sabbath. I'm not trying to be argumentative.But says who?By what authority can you make this statement?I'm adding to my comment to clarify my position.
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
This is the declaration of God that he blessed and sanctified the seventh day in particular,we now know it as Sabbath.
When did God authorize changing the day,or making any and every day sanctified or Sabbath?
I can't find it,so I'm open to hear from you or anyone else who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one which continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
Gal 3:11 Now that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Maybe this will help. Then again, maybe not.
I understand why you believe that these scripture support your position,because I once saw it the same way.I used these very Scriptures to justify ignoring God's Sabbath.I can only speak for myself,and I'm not trying to challenge or convict you or anyone else.I won't be deceived in this way again,now that I know better.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 1:01:49 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
am glad you can accept my statements in the spirit in which they are given. Some have doubted my maturity interpreting "spunk" as violating the fruit of the Spirit. I am not making this observtion as a justification of my argument, but an illustration of the burden that many evangelicals believe Israel needed to bear in order to be saved.
Yeshua does say, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." However, He also told us in the wilderness (Deut. 30:11-14) Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." Hey Blue.It is clear to me that you have an understanding of scripture that to put quite simply,differs from mine
The same can be said for all of us here right? The thing I appreciate in accepting this reality,is that it alleviates the need to discuss or argue an issue where disagreement will likely never be had,or found.
Having said that,I feel we've come to the end of the road regarding our current discussion again,as I have nothing further to add.You of course are welcome to ask,or inquire of me anything you think might prove helpful in your understanding/walk with God.
Thanks for the discussion.
I respect your desire to not get into a long debate and appreciate the fact that you have not resorted vain repetition, ad homanim, falacious arguments and the like to make your points. This is a sign of a true scholar, I look forward to discussing many issues with you in the future. Shaloam Elechiem.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 8:23:20 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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This is my summation of what God is showing me concerning his will and commandments.This is just my sharing,all are welcome to scrutinize/question and comment.
God begins by creating man and making him a living soul,I should actually say he first prepares the conditions for man in the same way we make ready to receive our children into the world.
After having done that,he immediately interacts/sets up fellowship with him and establishes his Covenant with him.
7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
Prior to the Covenant the man is already saved/alive in right standing/fellowship with God.After the Covenant is made,conditions/stipulations for continued fellowship are introduced.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
The same is true for Father Abraham.
1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
This is the saving of Abraham along with the provision.Before God established Covenant,he saved him and established provision/promises.After God saved Abraham,and Abraham began to walk with God.God established Covenants/agreements with Abraham.
6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.
1 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward."
2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir." 4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7 He also said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.
The promises are made before the commands which are to follow are introduced:
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God." 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness
10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
Then after Four hundred years God gathers Physical Israel and sets them on a journey to receive the promise delivered to Abraham by faith;however on the way their because of transgressions,God establishes the law:
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
So what place does the law have in the life of the believer? I believe we have to start off with Jeremiah:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The law,simply being the Ten Commandments are placed in our minds and written on our Heart.Now Salvation is of Faith through Christ;however the believer is not left in a state of lawlessness.Rather he is is guided and instructed by a new Schoolmaster if you will, which is the Spirit of God:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: F28 I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
So how does the believer once saved find or continue in uninterrupted fellowship with God?What do we have to do in order to know that we are pleasing,or responding properly to his command/desires for our life?
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, F28 condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit
Is the proof/works of our following after the spirit somehow evidenced?
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections F12 and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
There it is right there.The belivers relationship with respect to the Commandments is Love.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 8:43:10 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
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My bad, if I misread... I don't think there is a different requirement or more so from Jews than Christians. I believe there is one manner of law for both. I believe He is calling those out of the "Church" to have the Testimony of Jesus (Yahshua) and the commandments as with the Yehudi (Jews). These will be the bride.
This is another topic of discussion. He guys, married guys, spend quality time with your wives and cultivate your relationships. I know we like discussing Scripture and it's cool but our first ministry is the home. So if you don't see me responding in the threads as much, it's because me and the "more good looking half" is out dating and enjoying each other!
Shalom to you all!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2009 12:23:05 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/11/2007
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What God has been showing me about details.What do I mean when I use the word details?The careful following of specific commands/instructions.What does God want from me with respect to details?
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. F5 12 When ye come to appear F6 before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, F7 even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve F8 the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
So are details not important to God?
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise F45 and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
23.Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise--rather, "dill," as in Margin.
and cummin--In Luke (Luke 11:42) it is "and rue, and all manner of herbs." They grounded this practice on Leviticus 27:30, which they interpreted rigidly. Our Lord purposely names. the most trifling products of the earth as examples of what they punctiliously exacted the tenth of.
and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith-
So here we have an example of Jesus prescribing woe to the Pharisees,for following the details of the law,but leaving out the weightier matters.He Then enumerates what the weightier or more important elements are.If details didn't matter to God at all he would not have said,or rather finished his statement this way:
These ought yiu have done,AND NOT LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.
There is no need for one set of duties to jostle out another; but it is to be carefully noted that of the greater duties our Lord says, "Ye ought to have done" them, while of the lesser He merely says, "Ye ought not to leave them undone."
So at first glance an argument can be made that God is not concerned with details.A closer examination reveals that God wants us to be right,complete and whole.He wants us to serve him with our whole hearts.
As for details,they most certainly matter to God.What he wants is that our prorities are properly alligned.
That is that Love be at the center of our actions,and the details follow after.
Perfect example is as a Husband details matter to my wife.I'm constantly being judged by my attention detail.My remembrance of her is not optional if I want a sucessful home,it's required.
When I speak of remembrance,I'm not speaking of memory only.I'm talking about tying specific action to the memory.It's not enough for me to tell her I remember today is your birthday,or I remember today is our anniversary,etc...
I had better show in some tangible way how the memory affects/moves me into action.Expressing the importance of the event/day.
God is showing me that he feels the same way.The Commandments can be broken down or summed up in Loving God and our Neighbor as ourselves.Love is action,it must be expressed.It can not be Spiritual,without it also being physical.
So if I love others,I won't kill them,steal from them,etc.
But what of my love for God?How should that be expressed?By keeping his commandments.
There are two things God has focused my attention here lately in keeping the details of honoring him.
This is not an exclusive list,or intended to exclude anything else.This is just two areas I sense the Spirit of God leading me to observe.
One is to remember his Sabbath,and to keep it Holy.
The other is to remember his death by practicing Communion.
I'm still not quite sure how to properly regard Sabbath.I'm still looking into what specific way he wants me to do this.I'm pretty locked in on the day,I'm just not certain about any specifics,he wants me to observe.
I'll let you know as I continue to progress.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 3/20/2009 2:24:29 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Your reasoning so far appears to be sound. You will probably find few details regarding the weekly Shabbat in the Scriptures. It is not as meticulious as some make it out to be. There is one verse that commands us to have a convocation on Shabbat and the Jerusalem Council passage gives us an indication as to what was done at the convocation. Acts 15:21 "Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." This is not to say one should ignore the rest of the Scriptures. It is just that they believed as we read and discuss HaTorah on a regular basis we tend to pick up on the details.
Your second interest regarding "communion" ties into the other appointed times. I am not going to try to exert undue influence in these matters, but would rather you discover them for yourself. That said, you might want to look at the history and commandments regarding Pesach to get a clearer view of what was going on at the "last supper". You might even contact a local conservative synogogue or jewish family and ask to take part in their Seder on the evening before April 9th. In this way you can get the feel of what might have taken place on that night.
Rabbinics can also be of some help. I do not consider them to be much more than commentary. However, they do provide some direction on ways one might choose to observe Shabbat.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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