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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 2:27:38 PM
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mr_incredible
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Is it me, or is there a lotta legalism, a lotta religion, goin' on here? Isn't this the kinda argument the Pharisees had all up'n there all the time? Who argued about the number of angels on the head of a pin?
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 3:07:21 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Is it me, or is there a lotta legalism, a lotta religion, goin' on here? Isn't this the kinda argument the Pharisees had all up'n there all the time? Who argued about the number of angels on the head of a pin?
I don’t really think so. I think all here will agree that if we keep the commandment of Christ given in Matt 22:37 that we have fulfilled all the commandments and law of the prophets. This is all by grace of the New Covenant…I see no legalism in this.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 5:01:19 PM
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mr_incredible
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
I think all here will agree that if we keep the commandment of Christ given in Matt 22:37 that we have fulfilled all the commandments and law of the prophets.
So, I don't have-ta worry about :39, just :37? Cuz you mention only the one as THE requirement.
So, then, what does He mean in :40? WHAT "two commandments," then? You gave us one, but, if that's the only one we need to fulfill all the commandments and law of the prophets, what's this second one He's talking about? You say there's only one.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 6:24:39 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Bluethread...Why are you reading something into Matthew 5:17 what is not there? When Jesus said "if you love me keep the commandments". Was He referring to the Mosaic law..no..He was referring to the ten commandments, which He describes in many passages as the Law to which He was referring. I suggest you pray to have God open your mind and heart to His holy word, so you will better understand what is written then you will truly learn the truth!
God bless us all
know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
If you will allow me to respond to the second point first. This is wise advise for both of us. However, if you mean for this to be a justification for your argument, let's stick to the points being made and not denigrate the person making the points. That is what is known as an ad hominem attack. These attacks are falacious unless the person is standing on his own authority and I have not presented myself as an authority in any way that I am aware of.
Now, to the important part of your response, I presented two options. It appears you chose the second, "If on the other hand, this refers to only the ten, we will need to apply this meaning to the term translated "the Law" here wherever it appears in the Apistolic Writings, unless we can find a contextual reason for applying a different interpretation."
So, with this understood let's proceed. Since you appear to have used Jn. 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command." to justify your interpretation of Matthew 5:17, let's begin with His words.
(Mt 22:36-40) "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.""
Where do we find these commandments that Yeshua refers to here? Are they in Ex. 20 or Deut 5 were we find the ten? Well, one could read that into those passages, but you seemed to have a problem with reading things in. So, is there any place where we can find those exact wrods? Baruch HaShem(blessed be the Name), there is.
After presenting the ten, Moshe' said this (Deut. 6:4-9) "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates."
Not one of Adonai's people would have failed to recognize this, because it is repeated every Shabbat in the synagogue. So, it is not directly in the ten, but is Moshe's admonition following their presentation. However, maybe this is a bit picky. So, let's look at the second one.
Is "Love your neighbor as yourself." found among the ten. Again it may be read in, but we are avoiding that. Are these words in any passage close to Ex. 20 or Deut 5? If so, please point it out. I can only find it buried in a long list of detailed commandments, which includes instructions on making a sacrifice. (Lev. 19:17-18) "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
So, you say that when Yeshua speaks of "the Law", He is only speaking of the ten. However, when He summarizes "the Law" He quotes from what you would call "the law of Moses". Why would He do such a thing?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/5/2009 6:35:15 PM >
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 6:39:21 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mr_incredible
Is it me, or is there a lotta legalism, a lotta religion, goin' on here? Isn't this the kinda argument the Pharisees had all up'n there all the time? Who argued about the number of angels on the head of a pin?
Well that depends on what you mean when you use that term. Many have used it in many different ways, mostly to get out of doing things. If you are refering to what Yeshua criticized the Pharisees for, maybe we should look at those things, so we can come up with a clear definition.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 7:52:41 PM
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bob97
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Sorry mr_incredible...yes I stopped a couple of verses short didn't I? It should have included 37-40...hope God will overlook my error.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 8:09:57 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
The commandments and law referred to as remaining is God's law, the ten commandments.
Then why did Christ and the disciples celebrated Pentecost, Passover...See Acts 2:1, Acts 20:16, I Cor. 16:8 and I Cor. 5:8. These were not listed in the 10 Commandments yet they were practiced and done.
Acts 21:24 speaks of Paul's Nazarites vow and him offering the proper sacrifice at the Temple.
quote:
Was He referring to the Mosaic law..no..He was referring to the ten commandments
The Mosaic law is also referred to as the law of God...God gave it to Moses. John 9:29. Their are plenty of scripture that shows this.
In fact Stephen's false accusation in Acts 6:14 and his corresponding response reveals that he was refuting these false accusations.
Just mine 2 cents worth.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 8:12:13 PM
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mr_incredible
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mr_incredible
Is it me, or is there a lotta legalism, a lotta religion, goin' on here? Isn't this the kinda argument the Pharisees had all up'n there all the time? Who argued about the number of angels on the head of a pin?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Well that depends on what you mean when you use that term.
I understand the term in the way it is described by the conduct of, say, the Pharisees.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Many have used it in many different ways, mostly to get out of doing things.
Agreed. I would go so far as to say not just "many," rather "too many."
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If you are refering to what Yeshua criticized the Pharisees for, maybe we should look at those things, so we can come up with a clear definition.
The main mutha, the main culprit is the Pharisees. They are the example of "legalism" and "religionism." Far too many Christians resort to the Law, not Grace.
It's good to examine the Word of God in detail and reason with Him for understanding. It's probably a hindrance to understanding the spiritual journey by going through some of the detail I've seen in this thread. His Mercy is not tied up in some of the detail I've seen. People can do what they want; I'm just sayin'...
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2009 8:18:27 PM
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mr_incredible
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sorry mr_incredible...yes I stopped a couple of verses short didn't I? It should have included 37-40...
No need to be sorry, just more careful cuz some people who are not fully on board and those who are not on board don't get as full a story as they need. Even those who are fully on board and don't understand get the wrong idea. I think all of us need to be as precise as possible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
... hope God will overlook my error.
He sends some of us to help. He's not mad at you for overlooking those verses. He wants it to be a lesson on being thorough. Let's all work together on getting the full Message out there.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2009 9:46:19 AM
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AskSeekKnock
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Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. (NKJV)
Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. (NKJV)
Romans 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you become slaves of righteousness. (NKJV)
So, do we sin once we have become believers? If yes, what do we sin against if the law is dead?
Romans 3:31 Do we make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. (NKJV)
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' (NKJV)
If I do this, why would I do anything against what God has told me to do, or not to do?
It is both, obedience and faith.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (NKJV)
James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
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1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2009 12:48:21 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mr_incredible
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Well that depends on what you mean when you use that term.
I understand the term in the way it is described by the conduct of, say, the Pharisees.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If you are refering to what Yeshua criticized the Pharisees for, maybe we should look at those things, so we can come up with a clear definition.
The main mutha, the main culprit is the Pharisees. They are the example of "legalism" and "religionism." Far too many Christians resort to the Law, not Grace.
It's good to examine the Word of God in detail and reason with Him for understanding. It's probably a hindrance to understanding the spiritual journey by going through some of the detail I've seen in this thread. His Mercy is not tied up in some of the detail I've seen. People can do what they want; I'm just sayin'...
So, let's stop just sayin' and get to it. What specifically are refering to? Remember not everything the Pharisees taught was wrong. They beleived in the resurrection, the Sadducees did not. Nichodemus is a pharisee and the writer of most of the epistles, Paul, is a pharisee. So, let's focus on the points being made and not just make general accusations.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/9/2009 1:55:14 PM
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cornergas
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Sin is transgression of the law. 1st John 3(4). Whoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him" 1st John 3(6). Sure, we are saved by God's grace, but it is up to us to repent from our sins..should we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid. Romans 6 (1-2). From these few examples we can see grace and the law work together..we are originally saved by God's grace, we repent from our old ways, and follow the law (The ten commandments) to lead a sinless life. At least if we truly repent this is what we should be striving toward. Faith without works is dead!
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 4:15:59 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Sin is transgression of the law. 1st John 3(4). Whoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him" 1st John 3(6). Sure, we are saved by God's grace, but it is up to us to repent from our sins..should we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid. Romans 6 (1-2). From these few examples we can see grace and the law work together..we are originally saved by God's grace, we repent from our old ways, and follow the law (The ten commandments) to lead a sinless life. At least if we truly repent this is what we should be striving toward. Faith without works is dead!
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
Well said. However, what of your justification of the ten only doctrine? At our last meeting (post#4979) you used "if you love me keep the commandments" to justify this view. I presumed that you were refering to Jn. 14:15. In an attempt to then determine what Yeshua meant by "the commandments", I then quoted Mt 22:36-40, the "two great commandments" passage. I then looked to see where He got those from and, it appears, these quotes do not come from the "ten commandments passages" but other places. In fact, one comes from a laundry list of "mosaic laws". Can you explain why He would do that, if "the commandments" or "the law" refers only to "the ten"?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/11/2009 4:30:58 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 7:19:20 PM
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cornergas
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Do you not know that Jesus when he gave the two great commandments Love the Lord with all thy heart, soul and mind and love thy neighbour as thyself..and he went on to quote some of the ten to show which commandments to which He was referrring...I pray that the scales be removed from your eyes, and you will see more clearly the word of God.
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 8:01:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Do you not know that Jesus when he gave the two great commandments Love the Lord with all thy heart, soul and mind and love thy neighbour as thyself..and he went on to quote some of the ten to show which commandments to which He was referrring...I pray that the scales be removed from your eyes, and you will see more clearly the word of God.
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
I to pray the same for you. Now that we are in agreement that "the scales be removed from (our) eyes", shall we proceed to look at and discuss what the Scriptures say?
"if you love me keep the commandments" is not found in Mt. 5:17. So when you use it to embellish that verse, what is one to do. Please, show me the context of Mt. 5:17 that so clearly defines the commandments as you do.
If you are refering to the context of the phrase, "if you love me keep the commandments", it is I that provided the reference (Jn. 14:15) so the context could be examined. Again what is it in the context of this verse that defines it as you do?
Since these things were not provided, I looked at the greater context of the entire Scriptures and provided context that clarified what I believe Yeshua is saying. Could you, please, do the same at any of these levels?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2009 9:41:57 PM
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cornergas
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Keep reading your will figure it out I am sure..and pray about it, it will help open your mind and eyes...
God bless us all
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2009 3:45:01 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Keep reading your will figure it out I am sure..and pray about it, it will help open your mind and eyes...
God bless us all
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
Well since you do not wish to discuss this matter, I will hold to the position that I have presented until I am given a reason to do otherwise. It is interesting that you, who hold a position you refuse to defend, would pray that my eyes would be opened. I am more than willing to look at any argument that might be presented and mentally entertain the implications, as I have proven repeatedly.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:00:02 AM
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cornergas
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Some people obviously have a mental block to God's word in the Bible and keep going over ground already covered.This happens because of preconceived false doctrine they have learned and refuse to let go of. Just read the quotes previously posted from Jesus, and Apostle John and all the other Apostles and you will see what is said regarding the law and the commandments...No one can force anyone to accept or understand, that is why God gave us a free will..it is for us to pray for understanding of His word, and to lose the spirit of rebellion which is evident.
God bless us all
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:32:31 AM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Some people obviously have a mental block to God's word in the Bible and keep going over ground already covered.This happens because of preconceived false doctrine they have learned and refuse to let go of. Just read the quotes previously posted from Jesus, and Apostle John and all the other Apostles and you will see what is said regarding the law and the commandments...No one can force anyone to accept or understand, that is why God gave us a free will..it is for us to pray for understanding of His word, and to lose the spirit of rebellion which is evident.
God bless us all
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy.
Condescension is counterproductive. Accusing others of blindness when they have a different opinion makes your contributions rather questionable. I have never known another person to have the complete knowledge of all scripture, yet you seem to claim that ability.
You have been given scriptural references to support an opposing thought. Refutation is necessary in debate. What substantiates your position?
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 2:23:01 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Some people obviously have a mental block to God's word in the Bible and keep going over ground already covered.
Maybe that is why we are told to "keep going over ground already covered".
(Deut. 6:6-9) "These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates."
(Col 3:16) "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."
Repetition by itself is falacious propaganda and we must be careful that what is stated is true. For that reason it is important that we thoroughly examine these issues. Also, as part of a well rounded examination of the Scriptures, indoctrination has value. As one goes over something repeatedly, one becomes more familiar with it and it become written on one's heart. One then becomes better at clearly expressing one's point of view.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 10:15:24 PM
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tsnody2001
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This is not a direct response to any particular post in this forum, but simply a general comment...
The moral Law (Ten Commandments) are an extension of God's holy character and a part of His "image". It is not good for those who encourage others to keep God's Law to be called legalistic. Just because Jesus died for our sins and defeated death doesn't mean that God dismisses His Law and frees us to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc.. In fact, the Apostle John said that if we claim to know God but do these things that we are lying and the Truth is not in us. That is not to say that when one breaks the moral Law that it's the end of the road and there is no forgiveness. That is why Jesus died. Now when we TRUST in the LAW for salvation, instead of the blood of Jesus, then we have taken ourselves out of the long arms of grace. In short, what I'm trying to say is that we ARE supposed to keep the Law because we are to be conformed to God's character and image, which the Law is an extension of, and is summed up in loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. We cannot be conformed to His character and image by breaking away from His character and image.
I hope I am being clear and not forcing anyone to run through a logical maze to understand my point.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:11:04 PM
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bob97
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This whole discussion is simply amazing to me and Travis you are pretty much right on in you post. If we love God we will keep his commandments and live according to his will…it is just that simple. If we don’t live according to Gods will then we don’t love him. If we don’t love God then we can't love others as we love ourselves. If we do love others as we love ourselves then we will do nothing with intent to harm another. To love God with all our heart, soul and mind means that we are totally committed to God.
"On these two injunctions the Law (Ten Commandments) in its entirety, as well as the Prophets, hangs." The word "love" summarizes God's revelation and will toward man. This is such a simple but profound truth. It swept aside all the arguments between the Sadducees and Pharisees. It swept aside all the arguments among the Pharisees themselves. It is so simple and is followed by simple, repentant sinners.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2009 11:27:24 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
This is not a direct response to any particular post in this forum, but simply a general comment...
The moral Law (Ten Commandments) are an extension of God's holy character and a part of His "image". It is not good for those who encourage others to keep God's Law to be called legalistic. Just because Jesus died for our sins and defeated death doesn't mean that God dismisses His Law and frees us to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc.. In fact, the Apostle John said that if we claim to know God but do these things that we are lying and the Truth is not in us. That is not to say that when one breaks the moral Law that it's the end of the road and there is no forgiveness. That is why Jesus died. Now when we TRUST in the LAW for salvation, instead of the blood of Jesus, then we have taken ourselves out of the long arms of grace. In short, what I'm trying to say is that we ARE supposed to keep the Law because we are to be conformed to God's character and image, which the Law is an extension of, and is summed up in loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. We cannot be conformed to His character and image by breaking away from His character and image.
I hope I am being clear and not forcing anyone to run through a logical maze to understand my point.
Most do not contest "the ten", with the exception of the one regarding Shabbat. The big issue is whether the rest of the commandments expand on those and give us guidance on how to keep them, OR are they just limited directives presented for narrowly defined purposes. I do not hold to the second option because I have yet to see how those "narrowly defined purposes" can be consistantly applied to all of the Scriptures. That said, I will not denigh others the right to make their best defense of that position.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2009 3:27:32 PM
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cornergas
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Right on TSNODY 2001..you got it right on!..God bless you!
Happy Sabbath everybody
Know the truth and it will set you free
God bless us all.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2009 4:49:24 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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In the book of Acts, the Church fathers gave their entire instructions to Gentile believers in the following two verses:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
In comparison to some today, they were quite negligent.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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