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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:21:31 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
"something NEW" as in a "new command"? or was he simply "quoting the torah"?
Well, let's see. He stood on the sermon on the mount and redefined the law in such a way that it's frightening. "You have heard it said, do not commit murder... You have heard it said, do not commit adultery... "be therfore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect".
The rich young ruler comes along and asks Jesus "what do I need to do to attain eternal life?" And Jesus says what?
And the rich young ruler says what? "I've done all that since I was a child". In other words, it's child's play?
And Jesus redefined the law to 100th power... You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. Now most people will say that it's because his wealth was his Idol, but... WE ALL IDOLIZE OUR WEALTH. "Sell everything you have ("love your neighbor as yourself")... Then come follow me ("love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength").
That's pretty heavy folks.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:27:13 PM
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P31W
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Are you trying to "get us saved". I am speaking as a "saved person" and how a person saved by faith alone would respond to the law.
I don't believe Jesus added anything to the law rather he explained it, lived it and was it!!!! Job understood that "lust" was a sin long before the law was given.
Now I will ask you as a saved person. What do you do when you read the laws concerning washing your hands when you touch a dead thing? Explain to me as a "saved" person why you obey or disobey that law.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:27:40 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I can't keep the law the way Jesus did. (not even close!) That is why he had to die on the cross to fufill the requirements of the law and to break the curse of the law.
You know man never was counted as righteous by keeping the law it was "faith".
Now I will ask you something Matt. I believe you are asking these questions because you are saved.
Now as a saved person what do "you" do with the command from God (the law) concerning washing your hands after you touch something dead? Explain "why" you do or do not obey the law.
The same thing the atheist would do. Wash my hands. See, that's the whole point.
Now, what do you think it meant when Jesus washed the disciple's feet? Why didn't he wash his own feet if that would fulfill all righteousness?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:35:24 PM
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P31W
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quote:
The same thing the atheist would do. Wash my hands. See, that's the whole point.
Nope that is not the "whole" truth. Things that you and I take forgranted today in "our culture" and "society" were not and are not considered "normal" in parts of the world that don't have our same religious background.
See I obey that law "even when I don't understand it" because I trust God. I know that even if the "medical professionals" don't see reason to use "running water" when they touch sick folks instead they use a "basin" of water and allow tons of folks to die that I don't need to understand all the germ stuff behind that law. God loves me and told me to use "running water" no matter what others may say. Shame it took the medical community so long to catch on to that simple command to use "running water" instead of a basin.
I see how obeying God is a way that I show love to God and love to others. When I disobey God then others "die" and that is not love. That is selfishness on my part to depend on my "own understanding" and not His.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:41:00 PM
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P31W
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Matt,
Have you ever heard the story of Matthew Fountaine Maury the father of Modern Oceanography?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:07:52 PM
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P31W
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I don't know where you went so I am going to tell you about him. I need to sign off myself and get my Sunday School lesson finished. I am teaching Matthew 5:31-? however far we get! It's taken us a few months to get this far.
(copied)The fact that there are watery paths (ocean currents) in the seas was recorded in Psalms 8:8 some 27 centuries before man made the discovery and it was only because of the Bible that man made the discovery when he did. Upon hearing the Psalm, the American Matthew Fountaine Maury exclaimed, It is enough if the Word of God says there are paths in the sea, they must be there, and I am going to find them. He proceeded to do just that and soon charted for the first time all of the major sea lanes and currents. Matthew Maury is considered the father of modern oceanography and his statue stands at Annapolis Academy with sea charts in one hand and a Bible in the other.
Me speaking here. Matthew was in bed sick. His son was reading the Psalms to him. He asked his son to reread vs 8 several times. The lightbulb went of!!!! ALL scritpure is given by inspiration of God. All scripture is FROM GOD!!!! What more can I say. It's from God!!! We can trust Him and His Word!!! We can trust Him and His word enough to live by them, obey them, trust them! It's wonderful!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:27:58 PM
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bobservations
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I do appreciate all the answers on the kosher food question. As an Adventist I didn't eat any unclean meats. I did use milk with the fat to make gravy. 
Now that I understand the New Covenant, I have put away my Old Covenant beliefs and marvel in the Grace of Jesus. I can now eat with my brother and not feel guilty. I don't have to read every label. I don't worry about getting ready for the next Sabbath right after the last one is over. I rest in Jesus and fellowship with all Christians. I do not feel unequally yoked anymore. What a blessing to have the burden off my back. You have said how you are continually looking for new law to follow. I am continually searching for someone to tell the Good News of salvation. Love and Peace, boB
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:48:58 PM
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bzirk
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I obey the law, but I obey the law of Christ (rf. I Cor. 9:20-21), which is written on my heart as a believer and not the same exact thing as the law of Moses. There was indeed a change to the law when Jesus came and it was not in regard to justification. Justification was always by faith. That was nothing new as evidenced by Hebrews 11 (among other passages) and also by the OT saints who committed all kinds of sins and one of the chief sinners among them the Lord said he was a man after His own heart. That doesn't sound like justification by keeping the law.
It is important to note that when Paul is referring to the law, he is referring to the law of Moses. He more than once says the law has passed away, and yet he says he's under the law of Christ. Unless his reference to "the law" is the law of Moses, then his rhetoric about being under the law of Christ and yet not being under the law makes absolutely no sense.
For those interested, I espouse New Covenant Theology (NCT). It is the only thing in almost 30 years of studying about the law and the various theologies, i.e, covenant, dispensationalism and all of the off shoots of both, that makes sense.
Here is an overview of NCT, and btw, this sound of grace website is just an awesome resource. I highly, highly recommend it.
http://www.soundofgrace.com/v11/n7/nct_gdl_117.htm
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:53:01 PM
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bzirk
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Bob,
I think that what P31W is talking about is not so much trying to get under the law as it is appreciating God's order and how much it is a blessing to be in that order, i.e., washing our hands or respecting our parents, and on and on and on. And appreciating God's order glorifies the Lord.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:59:31 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 161
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I don't know where you went so I am going to tell you about him. I need to sign off myself and get my Sunday School lesson finished. I am teaching Matthew 5:31-? however far we get! It's taken us a few months to get this far.
(copied)The fact that there are watery paths (ocean currents) in the seas was recorded in Psalms 8:8 some 27 centuries before man made the discovery and it was only because of the Bible that man made the discovery when he did. Upon hearing the Psalm, the American Matthew Fountaine Maury exclaimed, It is enough if the Word of God says there are paths in the sea, they must be there, and I am going to find them. He proceeded to do just that and soon charted for the first time all of the major sea lanes and currents. Matthew Maury is considered the father of modern oceanography and his statue stands at Annapolis Academy with sea charts in one hand and a Bible in the other.
Me speaking here. Matthew was in bed sick. His son was reading the Psalms to him. He asked his son to reread vs 8 several times. The lightbulb went of!!!! ALL scritpure is given by inspiration of God. All scripture is FROM GOD!!!! What more can I say. It's from God!!! We can trust Him and His Word!!! We can trust Him and His word enough to live by them, obey them, trust them! It's wonderful!
If I'm not mistaken, Matthew Fountaine Maury was a member of the episcopal church too. And he's not the only person who believed scripture is true.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 11:11:38 PM
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bzirk
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Covaan_Meshuga,
Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control.
Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 11:37:49 PM
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bzirk
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Continuing on with my thought about control, I think this is the impetus that kept the Pharisees and other Hebrews (who did not come to the Lord) embracing the law of Moses (or more accurately something tangible and therefore controlled), and they clung to this so much that they could not let go of it to cling to the law of Christ.
It is evident this was the case when one reads Stephen's sermon in Acts. POWERFUL! I usually get choked when I read that passage. The Jews didn't get it. It was about the heart being circumcised not the privates. They never got that, because it is something that is not controlled by man. It is strictly God's territory. It always was. The Jews just never got that. That's why God said, "They shall never enter my rest." They were too busy doing their stuff to enter God's finished work, which btw, is the true sabbath and not the observance of the 7th day which is a mere picture of the eternal rest.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 11:41:19 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Covaan_Meshuga,
Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control. I sought out Messianism because the churches i asked were not able to answer a question I had that seemed very important in the Scriptures. One thing I did not need was more structure! I went to Messianism after being booted out of a holiness-Arminian church.  They did me a favor! I had been attending on Sabbaths, but when they kicked me out, I went to what I had wanted since my late teens.
(My husband just stopped by my office and showed me his ice cream bowl. He said it was chocolate swirl, not "mint choplet chick." Hee-hee!)
You know, honestly, I have only been to four shuls: one I attended for a few months, one I returned to once to see if they really were that bad, one I didn't stay in for the whole service (!!), and the one I am in, that I love. We are Messianics. I am not sure if there is a difference between "Messianics" and "Messianic Christians," but I think there is. I could be So Wrong, but I think Messianic Christians follow a belief common called among Messianics "Two Law Doctrine." Now, I am sure that there are many who grasp the "two-law doctrine," but I can see why it could lead to denial of our L-rd. In fact, the leader I mentioned earlier started off as a "two law-er" and ended up denying Him.
Regarding structure, my shul strictly follows what the Bible says, as I would prefer. in fact, if they brought in any additional "rules," adding to what the Bible says, and said we had to follow them, the one speaking would be talked right out the back door. In my shul, when the speaker says something from the pulpit, they had better have complete scriptural backup for what is said, because throughout the teachings, we have a roving mike that is expected to be used, and that speaker would be immediately questioned until they could produce scriptural proof. In fact, if this happens, some people do not wait for the mic. No teacher or leader gets by with anything there! The questions and answers are weekly, without fail, and if someone is too shy to ask then, they are invited to ask after lunch in our class in the library.
quote:
Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18. I am wondering, my friend Bzirk (for I see you as a friend), from your final paragraph here, who Christians believe authored what they call the "Mosaic law"? I wonder, too, who they believe initiated the new covenant and who they believe participated in it (participates in it / will participate in it)? I wonder, too, if everyone here has read Galations 5:18 in context, in Greek, with emphasis on the word law?
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 11:43:12 PM
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Mattumanu
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I love these discussions. They push my understanding of the law to new heights.
The law says more than a bunch of rules to follow. The "love" that the law requires is not an aquiescence to a set of rules one does not understand. The law, when properly understood, kills. This is what st. Paul tells us.
When Jesus says, "he who saves his own life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake shall find it", he is speaking the law. "Pick up your cross and follow me" is law. Any set of rules, is law. And that's all they are, and all they can do is show you your sin. It's not that the law isn't holy, righteous and good, but it stirs up that which is unholy, unrighteous and evil in me!
So, when you say you are washing your hands to show your love for God and love for neighbor, you are taking upon yourself the wieght of that law. Forget to wash your hands once, and you are a lawbreaker, and deserve death. Paul wouldn't argue stringently against this TO CHRISTIANS if it weren't important. "You who have begun in the spirit, are you now seeking to be perfected in the flesh?" In fact he was so adamantly opposed to this kind of thing that he hoped that those who preached circumcision would go the whole way and emasculate themselves...
Now, let me hammer on this... Romans 12:1...
Therefore beloved, IN VIEW OF HIS MERCIES, submit your bodies as living sacrifices... People will not submit thier bodies as living sacrifices by taking up 18,000 (or 613) ways to submit thier bodies as living sacrifices. When we look at Jesus on the cross, Him bleeding and dying on the cross, we see the ONLY perfect picture of the law... It's not that we should be on the cross in our sins, but that we should be on the cross for our God AND our neighbor IN OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, if we possessed any real righteousness to begin with. This is what the law really requires. To choose to serve our God and neighbor even unto death! With no vested interest, for our neighbor's benefit and not for our own. But who does this?
"there is none righteous, no not one".
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 11:50:40 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Covaan_Meshuga,
Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control. I sought out Messianism because the churches i asked were not able to answer a question I had that seemed very important in the Scriptures. One thing I did not need was more structure! I went to Messianism after being booted out of a holiness-Arminian church. They did me a favor! I had been attending on Sabbaths, but when they kicked me out, I went to what I had wanted since my late teens.
(My husband just stopped by my office and showed me his ice cream bowl. He said it was chocolate swirl, not "mint choplet chick." Hee-hee!)
You know, honestly, I have only been to four shuls: one I attended for a few months, one I returned to once to see if they really were that bad, one I didn't stay in for the whole service (!!), and the one I am in, that I love. We are Messianics. I am not sure if there is a difference between "Messianics" and "Messianic Christians," but I think there is. I could be So Wrong, but I think Messianic Christians follow a belief common called among Messianics "Two Law Doctrine." Now, I am sure that there are many who grasp the "two-law doctrine," but I can see why it could lead to denial of our L-rd. In fact, the leader I mentioned earlier started off as a "two law-er" and ended up denying Him.
Regarding structure, my shul strictly follows what the Bible says, as I would prefer. in fact, if they brought in any additional "rules," adding to what the Bible says, and said we had to follow them, the one speaking would be talked right out the back door. In my shul, when the speaker says something from the pulpit, they had better have complete scriptural backup for what is said, because throughout the teachings, we have a roving mike that is expected to be used, and that speaker would be immediately questioned until they could produce scriptural proof. In fact, if this happens, some people do not wait for the mic. No teacher or leader gets by with anything there! The questions and answers are weekly, without fail, and if someone is too shy to ask then, they are invited to ask after lunch in our class in the library.
quote:
Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18. I am wondering, my friend Bzirk (for I see you as a friend), from your final paragraph here, who Christians believe authored what they call the "Mosaic law"? I wonder, too, who they believe initiated the new covenant and who they believe participated in it (participates in it / will participate in it)? I wonder, too, if everyone here has read Galations 5:18 in context, in Greek, with emphasis on the word law?
I hope you know I surely don't see you as an enemy. BTW, you might be right about "Messianic Christians" being something different from Messianism. I am certainly no authority on all of this, but what you are talking about is familiar.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2005 12:00:21 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2920
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Continuing on with my thought about control, I think this is the impetus that kept the Pharisees and other Hebrews (who did not come to the Lord) embracing the law of Moses (or more accurately something tangible and therefore controlled), and they clung to this so much that they could not let go of it to cling to the law of Christ.
It is evident this was the case when one reads Stephen's sermon in Acts. POWERFUL! I usually get choked when I read that passage. The Jews didn't get it. It was about the heart being circumcised not the privates. They never got that, because it is something that is not controlled by man. It is strictly God's territory. It always was. The Jews just never got that. That's why God said, "They shall never enter my rest." They were too busy doing their stuff to enter God's finished work, which btw, is the true sabbath and not the observance of the 7th day which is a mere picture of the eternal rest. I would ask you to change your words in your post to read something like "the Pharisees and other Hebrews who did not believe" and "The Jews who did not get it."  I would ask you, once again, who authored the the Torah? Was He in error? And has anyone here looked into the chapter on the "rest"? I mean really looked into it, in Greek?
Yes, I've examined the passage in the Greek. I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but I have studied it, so that I'm not a novice in it.
There is no question that God authored the Torah, but it was not His final words to us. He did go on to make a New Covenant with us after the Torah was complete and as a result the old passed away.
I'm satisfied with what I believe to be true about the law. I in no way believe that we have no law as believers. I just believe it's not the Mosaic law. It closely resembles the Mosaic law in many respects, but it's not exactly the same, hence the New Covenant.
As to my words in the previous post, "who did not come to the Lord" was my way of saying those who did not believe.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2005 12:08:20 AM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
There is no question that God authored the Torah, but it was not His final words to us. He did go on to make a New Covenant with us after the Torah was complete and as a result the old passed away.
The "final word"... of John 1:1. The "word" made flesh.
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son".
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2005 2:13:02 AM
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bobservations
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Covaan said: And Bob, the last I knew, you were SDA. What happened?
Time flies when you are retired and my mind sometimes won't allow me to recall some things. I believe though that I turned my resignation to the church clerk in 1996 or there about. If I have posted anything that made it sound like I am still SDA I apologize. Most SDA's are great people and are serving our Lord. They do have some doctrines that | | | |
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