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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 12:48:38 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Relationship can be very frightening. And that is one of the topics that Young hits head on in The Shack, and this is the very topic that disturbs many. That is also why Jesus disturbed many. In fact, this is what Jesus said about this topic.
Maybe for some.
I don't take issue with Mr. Young's wanting to address some of the ills of the church -- dry, lifeless faith.
But I do take issue with his proffered solution.... and that he also sees certain doctrines as the ills themselves (some of the doctrines he attacks via his implied thesis are biblical.... he's verging on heresy, if he hasn't already crossed the line). He's not merely suggesting relationship; he's urging a particular slant on that relationship -- and it's not merely a nuanced slant: it's a big skewing of who God is and thus, how He relates to us.
Yes, on our end, each of us has a different experience with God, because He has made us unique individuals. However, God Himself is not defined by how we relate to Him. He defines Himself. That definition is found in the Word, which is the Bible (and Christ, since He is Logos). And the Holy Spirit and the Word testify to each other.
What people have trouble with, when presented with the true, unwatered-down gospel, is not that God wants a relationship with them -- it's that He has expectations for how we are to live our lives once we surrender to Him. He deserves to be the Ruler in our lives, not only in right but also in walked-out reality.
That's the part a lot of people have trouble with.
I do see that the Way (which is what Christianity was originally called) seems to have lost its vibrancy in how folks are living it out, but that's not God's fault.... nor is it the fault of the Bible... or of the basic tenets of the faith.... but of its followers.
So... if the unbelievers and the "unchurched" believers have trouble seeing the vibrancy, we need to examine ourselves and seek God Himself for revival. Not re-image and re-think God through The Shack.
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Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 2:45:26 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
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quote:
So... if the unbelievers and the "unchurched" believers have trouble seeing the vibrancy, we need to examine ourselves and seek God Himself for revival. Not re-image and re-think God through The Shack.
I'm in agreement with much of what you've said. And the need for examination is certainly true.
But I wonder if they are having trouble seeing the vibrancy because there is no life in many who call themselves 'believers'? Many church goers grew up reading God's word, made a profession of faith, have continued in the routine of church/Bible study, etc. but don't really have a vital relationship with Jesus.
I was a part of the United Methodist Church when they sent some of the leadership to the ReImagining Conference. I've been down this road. My husband and I wrote a letter and personally sent it to the membership so they would know what our church was doing---and supporting with our money. I was writing monthly articles for the church newsletter and sharing the teachings of John Wesley and other information straight out of the UMC literature and Book of Discipline. The pastor set up an 'editorial committee' to stop my articles going in the newsletter. I do not in any way support the reimagining of God. That is not what The Shack is about.
But Young does address some important things. I'd be interested in knowing what you see as his slant on relationship or some of the doctrinal things you disagree with?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 5:05:38 PM
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GrannyofSix
Posts: 128
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quote:
Perhaps some, but I think "millions" is quite an embellishment of the truth.
This is what the author said when I heard him speak in person. Not my numbers - they are his.
quote:
I believe most Christians read more than just the Bible. You read this book, didn't you? Why would you read anything other than the Bible?
I only read the book because I was going to the Gaither Family Fest in May and heard that he was the speaker. I had no idea what the book was about, but wanted to read it so I would be familiar with what the author was talking about. I had no clue and have been totally confused that Bill and Gloria Gaither's support of this horrible non-Christian Book.
quote:
It took just a few chapters before I realized not only was the book terribly written, but it also did not show a theologically sound picture of the Trinity. A couple more chapters and there were red flags all over the place about how God was portrayed, not to mention the Holy Spirit. I had the least problem with Jesus (and I'm not talking about appearance here), but even some of the dialog with that character is misleading at best.
I would never never use this book to introduce Christianity to anyone and I've steered a good number of people away from it.
GOOD FOR YOU! AND BLESSINGS IN YOUR FUTURE EFFORTS TO STEER PEOPLE AWAY FROM THIS BLASPHEMOUS BOOK.
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 5:22:12 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
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Grannyofsix,
You've made numerous references to the heresies and blasphemies of this book. I would really like to understand what you are referring to. Could you give some concrete examples of these? Thanks, LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 7:27:24 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4177
Joined: 4/11/2005
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The problems with the book have been laid out repeatedly in this thread.
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 8:36:11 PM
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quietly50
Posts: 264
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
The problems with the book have been laid out repeatedly in this thread.
Please summarize them for me.
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 8:54:39 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4177
Joined: 4/11/2005
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There's no need to when you can read the thread.
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 9:17:56 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Grannyofsix,
You've made numerous references to the heresies and blasphemies of this book. I would really like to understand what you are referring to. Could you give some concrete examples of these? Thanks, LL
I still would like to have some concrete examples of the heresies and blasphemies that Grannyofsix is referring to so I can understand her position.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 9:29:02 PM
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quietly50
Posts: 264
Joined: 12/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
There's no need to when you can read the thread.
I just thought I would understand your position better if you could summarize in your own words.
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 9:32:16 PM
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quietly50
Posts: 264
Joined: 12/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Bah, sounds too emergent for my tastes. I'm warning everyone to stay away.
What is emergent?
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 9:59:49 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quietly50
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Bah, sounds too emergent for my tastes. I'm warning everyone to stay away.
What is emergent?
The Emergent church espouses the social aspects of Jesus' life such as caring for the poor, homeless, etc. Sounds good? However, they typically throw out doctrine, saying it is unnecessary. They often deny or reinterpret the Trinitarian view of God. They often deny the reality of Hell or even that people will go there. But they also often dodge many of these issues when asked about them. Popular teachers in this movement are Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, and Donald Miller.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 11:15:39 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrannyofSix
Liveloved - Here's a link for starters: http://www.leadingtheway.org/site/PageServer?pagename=sto_TheShack_13heresies
The fact that you are sending me to a link is a part of the problem. How much of what we think, the conclusions we form, or reactions we have are because of what we've heard, what we've been told about something? Rather than arrived at by listening and seeking to understand?
I went back to page one of this thread and began reading again. And the first posts that were critical of this book were based on "everything I've heard about it", "what I've read about it", and "I haven't even read it but".
Have we arrived at our conclusions based on all the things others have told us? What they think? And after hearing all this, reading all the commentary, listening to the biased opinions, can we then read something with an open mind?
Anyway, I was just hoping that you would share some of the heresies and blasphemies you had observed.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 6/30/2009 11:45:36 PM
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quietly50
Posts: 264
Joined: 12/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Anyway, I was just hoping that you would share some of the heresies and blasphemies you had observed.
I"m hoping you will share some of them, too.
I agree with Liveloved that too often what someone else says is what people take for gospel truth and people don't think for themselves.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 6:41:18 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2681
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Problems with the Shack: The view of the Trinity that is presented is very problematic, for one.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 8:35:43 AM
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2jsmom
Posts: 2581
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From: The Midwest
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I have a question for the posters who feel the Shack helps people to know God. What do you think about the Old Testament?
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"Everybody is a genius. But, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life believing that it is stupid." - Albert Einstein
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 8:41:51 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7978
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quietly50
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Anyway, I was just hoping that you would share some of the heresies and blasphemies you had observed.
I"m hoping you will share some of them, too.
I agree with Liveloved that too often what someone else says is what people take for gospel truth and people don't think for themselves.
I also wonder if there are those out there who realise that we can think for ourselves and have the aptitude to understand what is fact and what is false. There are 20 pages worth in this thread alone with pieces of the book pointed out as fallacy.
I have no problem with this book being fiction. I have no problem with this man making his own (false) interpretation of the Trinity.
I have a problem with this man going to churches and teaching his fallacy. I have a problem with churches embracing this literature before completely understanding it.
I also have a problem with this fiction being presented as a nonfiction. There are so many people out there who think this is a true story. AND THEN, the end of the book the publisher tells others to spread the word about how wonderful the book is. What is that all about?
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 9:17:13 AM
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GrannyofSix
Posts: 128
Joined: 6/17/2009
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quote:
The fact that you are sending me to a link is a part of the problem. How much of what we think, the conclusions we form, or reactions we have are because of what we've heard, what we've been told about something? Rather than arrived at by listening and seeking to understand?
I read the book first - before I read any other comments, Internet sites, or other things written for or against the book. I read it because I was going to hear the author speak.
I was abhorred by the book. The Holy Ghost continually warned me through my Spirit not to read it. I prayed and continued to read it so that I could rightly discuss the book and warn others against it's dangers.
I gave the link because I have been criticized for giving MY opinion. People will pay more attention to a minister than a lay person. I could get the book out and study and write up an essay listing all the heresies and blasphemies in the book and send that to you, and you might well answer "who is she?". Or "These are just her opinions".
Frankly, the book is no longer in my house and won't be. I don't want anything of the Devil in my house. "Rosemary's Baby" is obviously Fiction, but I don't want it in my house.
So if you won't accept the links that I give you, then I don't know what else to say but for you to study it out for yourself. Compare the book to the Word of God.
People want to give links that support the author and the book, and people accept those. Why not accept links to noted and studied ministers who preach the truth about the book and are anointed by God to do so?
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 10:24:16 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrannyofSix
quote:
The fact that you are sending me to a link is a part of the problem. How much of what we think, the conclusions we form, or reactions we have are because of what we've heard, what we've been told about something? Rather than arrived at by listening and seeking to understand?
I read the book first - before I read any other comments, Internet sites, or other things written for or against the book. I read it because I was going to hear the author speak.
Yeah! Thanks for sharing this, Grannyofsix. I want to know you, understand you and your thoughts, not those of the 'others' since I'm not in relationship with them (even through cyberspace). So thank you for responding. I do really appreciate it. 
I was abhorred by the book. The Holy Ghost continually warned me through my Spirit not to read it. I prayed and continued to read it so that I could rightly discuss the book and warn others against it's dangers.
OK. I've had this experience. It was when a friend was going through a divorce and her counselor gave her some books to read. In helping her, I wanted to read what she was reading. So I did. Or at least my desire was there. I had to put one of the books down and did not finish because of similar warnings from the Holy Spirit.
I did not have this experience with this book. And I wonder if the teaching that goes on in alot of the Christian world isn't hypercritical and leads to excessive fear hence more and more red flags, etc?
I gave the link because I have been criticized for giving MY opinion. People will pay more attention to a minister than a lay person. I could get the book out and study and write up an essay listing all the heresies and blasphemies in the book and send that to you, and you might well answer "who is she?". Or "These are just her opinions".
Oh, hon, do I know this as well! BTDT And it gets tiring, doesn't it? But I'm a listener and will listen to you. That's why I want to hear from you and what you are perceiving.
Frankly, the book is no longer in my house and won't be. I don't want anything of the Devil in my house. "Rosemary's Baby" is obviously Fiction, but I don't want it in my house.
So if you won't accept the links that I give you, then I don't know what else to say but for you to study it out for yourself. Compare the book to the Word of God.
People want to give links that support the author and the book, and people accept those. Why not accept links to noted and studied ministers who preach the truth about the book and are anointed by God to do so?
This book is not of the devil. And Jesus lives in me. The Word is my life, grannyofsix. There is no fear here.
I just wanted you to share one or two things that were troubling to you about this book. I'm still listening if you are willing and able.
To 2jsmom: I love the OT. It is part of God's revelation of Himself. The revelation would not be complete apart from knowing Him in His entirety.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 1:25:04 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 3646
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
The fact that you are sending me to a link is a part of the problem. How much of what we think, the conclusions we form, or reactions we have are because of what we've heard, what we've been told about something? Rather than arrived at by listening and seeking to understand?
I went back to page one of this thread and began reading again. And the first posts that were critical of this book were based on "everything I've heard about it", "what I've read about it", and "I haven't even read it but".
Have we arrived at our conclusions based on all the things others have told us? What they think? And after hearing all this, reading all the commentary, listening to the biased opinions, can we then read something with an open mind?
i disagree that it is a bad idea to listen to or read other's opinions on the subject. there are many scholars and pastors with much greater knowledge than i have. i'd be foolish to think of myself as an expert on anything. there are many times when i might hear or read something that sounds off but not quite sure why. also there's so much more to studying something than just reading the book. understanding the author's worldview of ur - all go to heaven even those who do not ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins - is quite revealing. thus the shack collapses once exposed. i think it's also important to not just read one side of an argument, i've read defenses of the book from the author and publisher but that still hasn't swayed me that the book is filled with bad doctrine. why should other Christians be encouraged to read a book with bad doctrine in order to renounce it.
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 2:13:35 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 1273
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
The fact that you are sending me to a link is a part of the problem. How much of what we think, the conclusions we form, or reactions we have are because of what we've heard, what we've been told about something? Rather than arrived at by listening and seeking to understand?
I went back to page one of this thread and began reading again. And the first posts that were critical of this book were based on "everything I've heard about it", "what I've read about it", and "I haven't even read it but".
Have we arrived at our conclusions based on all the things others have told us? What they think? And after hearing all this, reading all the commentary, listening to the biased opinions, can we then read something with an open mind?
i disagree that it is a bad idea to listen to or read other's opinions on the subject. there are many scholars and pastors with much greater knowledge than i have. i'd be foolish to think of myself as an expert on anything. there are many times when i might hear or read something that sounds off but not quite sure why. also there's so much more to studying something than just reading the book. understanding the author's worldview of ur - all go to heaven even those who do not ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins - is quite revealing. thus the shack collapses once exposed. i think it's also important to not just read one side of an argument, i've read defenses of the book from the author and publisher but that still hasn't swayed me that the book is filled with bad doctrine. why should other Christians be encouraged to read a book with bad doctrine in order to renounce it.
I agree with you iwillfearnoevil, very good point. And I love your screen name, by the way. Very nice.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
http://followtheleader-mat1624.blogspot.com/
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 2:53:22 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7978
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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W00T! I finally agree with you on something, saved....LOLOL
About the book...not about IWFNE's name. 
*I have to pick on him...he's going to marry mah person next month*
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: "The Shack" - 7/1/2009 3:11:29 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1763
Status: offline
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quote:
i disagree that it is a bad idea to listen to or read other's opinions on the subject.
Go back and read what I said and perhaps you'll see that's not what I was saying at all.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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