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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 7:04:24 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We group murder with homosexuality and fornication because the Bible does.
...and it does with Jews as well. Ten commandments, idolatry. You're probably familiar.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
quote:
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
The list in 1 Cor 6 is being addressed to Christians who might be given to certain sins. A Jewish person by religion is not, by definition, a Christian. When the discussion comes up about homosexuality, we quote the appropriate scripture.
If we were on another thread where Judaism is being spoken of (it does because the entire context of the Bible is about Jews), unbelief is usually the distinction. When someone asks about the unpardonable sin, for example, it isn't relegated to a one stop thread (I keep trying to say that). Judaism is addressed in some of the prophecy threads, and some of that imvolves some eschatological and hermeneutic issues.
quote:
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are?
Do you mean the idolatrous Jews of the time of the Babylonian exile? Those are the types of idolatries that I remember in scripture. You can go all the way back to Kings, Chronicles, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the like for that.
That sentence was already carried out. But I guess one's hermaneutics and eschatology must be taken into consideration as to whether or not that has happened.
I think part of the problem is that we don't even agree on how oppressed each of the separate groups are. Maybe you think that Christians chase homosexuals around in hordes beating them over the heads with their Bibles. I dunno.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 7:49:06 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We group murder with homosexuality and fornication because the Bible does.
...and it does with Jews as well. Ten commandments, idolatry. You're probably familiar.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
Worshiping idols and false gods. I'm reasonably certain you know this. I'd appreciate less intransigence on your part.
Again, please answer the questions. These should be simple, you're doing an awful lot to make them hard:
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are?
UPDATE:
quote:
I think part of the problem is that we don't even agree on how oppressed each of the separate groups are. Maybe you think that Christians chase homosexuals around in hordes beating them over the heads with their Bibles. I dunno.
That has nothing to do with either of the questions I have posed. If you're going to address what I say try to make the effort of actually addressing what I say.
< Message edited by huangshan -- 10/29/2009 7:57:14 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 8:45:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
quote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
Worshiping idols and false gods. I'm reasonably certain you know this. I'd appreciate less intransigence on your part.
There must be some hermeneutic disconnect here that I don't see. Read 1 Cor 6. Tell me where idolatry or Judaism is mentioned. Which verse specifically? To compare Judaism with murder, I'd have to see them together in the same section of scripture.
quote:
Again, please answer the questions. These should be simple, you're doing an awful lot to make them hard:
I think there are some presuppositions we don't share. I'm trying to figure it out.
quote:
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
Homosexuality is listed together with those things in 1 Cor. 6 and 1 Tim. 1. Contextually, these things were either being practiced in the Corinthian church or they were at risk of infecting the church. Generally, this was a Gentile church, not a Jewish one. So, Judaism (by definition) would not be a problem in a Christian church.
The closest analogy I can think of is the book of Hebrews. But again, that is unbelief and we have had threads about the book of Hebrews. But topics about Hebrews and the unpardonable sin are no One Stop threads. There is currently a thread on the unpardonable sin in the salvation folder. Getting people to see that that sin most specifically applied to the Jews of Jesus' era is a hard task. I've tried. Typically, it is raised by immature Christians who are having difficulty holding onto their faith. But I don't hear of many people defending unbelief or idolatry as being an inherited trait.
I think the book of Hebrews has a great deal to speak of with regard to Judaism. However, it is a difficult book to understand and the discussions about it breaks down quickly over interpretive issues.
quote:
quote:
I think part of the problem is that we don't even agree on how oppressed each of the separate groups are. Maybe you think that Christians chase homosexuals around in hordes beating them over the heads with their Bibles. I dunno.
That has nothing to do with either of the questions I have posed. If you're going to address what I say try to make the effort of actually addressing what I say.
Believe me I'm trying. It is related in this way. Homosexual groups, I believe, complain more about oppression than any Jewish group that I am aware of. Their complaints certainly make the news a great deal more. I am not sure what Christians are doing to homosexuals more than to Jews, except as a defensive reaction. We are defending Christianity against homosexual infiltration. We do have many Christian denominations trying to keep their ministries pure of homosexuality and some are not succeeding very well. We don't have any such battles going on over Judaism within the Christian church.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/29/2009 9:19:35 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 9:16:11 PM
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Marcus.
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If this isn't the thread to discuss those other sinners, why did you say this earlier?
I wasn't going to go into an in depth explanation of why these other groups are evil or why God has grouped them together. I was making a point to answer your question of why homosexuals seem to be getting so much attention. I was contrasting sinners as a group who aren't fighting to be recognized legally or morally. They know what they do is evil. Homosexuals are working very hard to pervert God's Word on their sexual proclivities being an abomination before Him. They are trying to gain acceptance and even be called moral. To answer your question it seems you are trying to draw me into a more detailed explanation which would naturally include more depth on the other sinners which would become a ToS violation for being off topic.
See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
Because God does. God does include idolators in the group as well. But obviously that includes more than just unbelieving Jews. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are? Yes See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 9:40:18 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
Worshiping idols and false gods. I'm reasonably certain you know this. I'd appreciate less intransigence on your part.
There must be some hermeneutic disconnect here that I don't see. Read 1 Cor 6.
I haven't mentioned 1 Cor 6, I've been very consistent. Idolatry is mentioned in the ten commandments along with murder and theft. This provides a simple context by which we can associate Jews with murderers and thieves. Please answer the questions.
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are?
Marcus., thank you for your answer, it was very direct. Could I trouble you to answer the second part of question 1 though? Perhaps I'm wrong, as I don't go into conversations regarding the matter, but I don't think that Judaism is thought of or spoken of in terms associating it with murder and thieving and rape on these forums. Why this discrepancy between Judaism and homosexuality?
I mean, I understand how technically they are grouped together and can be spoken of in similar terms. Sin is sin, after all. But, and again I could be wrong and I encourage you to guide my attention so that I may know otherwise, it seems that homosexuality is spoken of in exceptionally harsh terms while Judaism and other such sins are treated, rhetorically, relatively lightly in comparison.
Why?
< Message edited by huangshan -- 10/29/2009 9:46:32 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 10:41:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
I haven't mentioned 1 Cor 6, I've been very consistent.
In an attempt to answer your question, I have.
quote:
Idolatry is mentioned in the ten commandments along with murder and theft. This provides a simple context by which we can associate Jews with murderers and thieves. Please answer the questions.
Homosexuality isn't mentioned in either the ten commandments nor in the gospels. Context is not the issue, it is topical.
Murder is cross-cultural. I am not sure why we should specifically associate Jews with murder unless they are actually guilty of it. I am not associating homosexuals with murder either except that Paul lists them together in 1 Timothy.
There is a first century guilt issue mentioned in Matthew 23 where Jesus promises that the House of Israel (Jews) would be punished for the death of His prophets. See verses 35-37. As far as I am concerned, that sentence has already been carried out.
quote:
I mean, I understand how technically they are grouped together and can be spoken of in similar terms. Sin is sin, after all. But, and again I could be wrong and I encourage you to guide my attention so that I may know otherwise, it seems that homosexuality is spoken of in exceptionally harsh terms while Judaism and other such sins are treated, rhetorically, relatively lightly in comparison.
Why?
I don't know if that is true. In Europe there was an exceptional oppression of Jews by self-professed Christians long into the 20th century. Americans have tended to avoid that but have been associated with those acts anyway. Perhaps dissociation with injustice has caused people to avoid discussion with it.
Besides, God has expressed displeasure with those who would persecute Jews.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 2:00:02 AM
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Marcus.
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
Worshiping idols and false gods. I'm reasonably certain you know this. I'd appreciate less intransigence on your part.
There must be some hermeneutic disconnect here that I don't see. Read 1 Cor 6.
I haven't mentioned 1 Cor 6, I've been very consistent. Idolatry is mentioned in the ten commandments along with murder and theft. This provides a simple context by which we can associate Jews with murderers and thieves. Please answer the questions.
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are?
Marcus., thank you for your answer, it was very direct. Could I trouble you to answer the second part of question 1 though? Perhaps I'm wrong, as I don't go into conversations regarding the matter, but I don't think that Judaism is thought of or spoken of in terms associating it with murder and thieving and rape on these forums. Why this discrepancy between Judaism and homosexuality?
I mean, I understand how technically they are grouped together and can be spoken of in similar terms. Sin is sin, after all. But, and again I could be wrong and I encourage you to guide my attention so that I may know otherwise, it seems that homosexuality is spoken of in exceptionally harsh terms while Judaism and other such sins are treated, rhetorically, relatively lightly in comparison.
Why?
To answer the second part of your first question would be off topic here.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 2:08:52 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Being a Jew is mentioned in 1 Cor 6? Where?
Worshiping idols and false gods. I'm reasonably certain you know this. I'd appreciate less intransigence on your part.
There must be some hermeneutic disconnect here that I don't see. Read 1 Cor 6.
I haven't mentioned 1 Cor 6, I've been very consistent. Idolatry is mentioned in the ten commandments along with murder and theft. This provides a simple context by which we can associate Jews with murderers and thieves. Please answer the questions.
1) Why do I see homosexuals compared to liars, thieves and murderers, but I do not see idolatrous Jews compared to liars, thieves and murderers?
2) Are idolatrous Jews like liars, thieves and murderers given that homosexuals are?
Marcus., thank you for your answer, it was very direct. Could I trouble you to answer the second part of question 1 though? Perhaps I'm wrong, as I don't go into conversations regarding the matter, but I don't think that Judaism is thought of or spoken of in terms associating it with murder and thieving and rape on these forums. Why this discrepancy between Judaism and homosexuality?
I mean, I understand how technically they are grouped together and can be spoken of in similar terms. Sin is sin, after all. But, and again I could be wrong and I encourage you to guide my attention so that I may know otherwise, it seems that homosexuality is spoken of in exceptionally harsh terms while Judaism and other such sins are treated, rhetorically, relatively lightly in comparison.
Why?
To answer the second part of your first question would be off topic here.
It's a single question. You haven't answered it. And no, it's obviously not off-topic here, I'm asking what the difference is between two things, and one of those things is homosexuality.
"A is like C, D, and E!"
"What about B, isn't be like C, D and E too? What's the difference between A and B?"
"The difference is that A is like this, and..."
"...and...?"
"I can't talk about that here. A only!"
"But you can talk about C, D and E."
You're being absurd. I'm not going to ask you a single question in two separate forums, it's a single question. Answer the question.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 7:01:36 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
To answer the second part of your first question would be off topic here.
It's a single question. You haven't answered it. And no, it's obviously not off-topic here, I'm asking what the difference is between two things, and one of those things is homosexuality.
"A is like C, D, and E!"
"What about B, isn't be like C, D and E too? What's the difference between A and B?"
"The difference is that A is like this, and..."
"...and...?"
"I can't talk about that here. A only!"
"But you can talk about C, D and E."
You're being absurd. I'm not going to ask you a single question in two separate forums, it's a single question. Answer the question.
I guess I can't figure out why you don't think I have answered it.
Homosexuality is a behavior. It is a sin of professing Christians. Unbelief is not a sin of professing Christians. Once they profess unbelief, they are no longer Christians. Ditto for Buddaism.
There is such thing as Christians committing idolatry. Many evangelical Christians believe Catholics are guilty of that. I don't know that I can get into that because I can't prove what is in their hearts when they are bowing to images.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/30/2009 4:43:55 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 10:17:30 AM
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Marcus.
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Sorry Huangshan,
I do see it as off topic so check your Inbox for my PM instead.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/5/2009 3:27:23 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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Just jumping in here to give my two cents:
Is homosexuality genetic? Yes. It is a sin, and our inborn sin is inherited from Adam. It is in our genes.
Can one be born gay? Yes. Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. "
If someone is homosexual, can that change? Yes. ...Psalm 51:6 "Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place." 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/5/2009 11:36:12 PM
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PitaKat
Posts: 132
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From: Eastern WA
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So I got "called out" on a thread on a different forum for not being a gay marriage supporter. Hundreds of posters on that site and I'm on a list of 10 people who don't support gay marriage. Im not even really sure when I was giving my particular views on the subject, but I've been a member on the site for a year and a half, so I guess it must've come up at some point...
Anyway, seeing my name on that list made me feel HORRIBLE  I don't want to be seen as a hater, but I am. I'm also seen as a bigot and as ignorant. I cannot just ignore it because my personality is "people-pleaser". I cannot stand people disliking me, that's just the way I am. I accept that and always keep it in mind, but it makes me feel really bad at times...
So I need some answers. Why, other than because it says it's wrong in the bible, is homosexuality wrong? I ask because I know what the bible says, but when defending my views I need something other than the bible as many people do not believe it.
How would gay marriage being legalized affect my marriage? My husband supports gay rights. He says he doesn't see how it effects us. To be honest, I don't see how it would effect us either...
Are all homosexuals born that way? My very conservative parents believe that no one is born that way (as in, circumstances in a homosexual's life made him feel attracted to the same sex), but gay marriage supporters say that all homosexuals are born that way.
In what ways can you love someone you are not supporting (supporting politically or otherwise)?
I'm sure these questions have been answered already, but 145 pages is a lot to try to go through...
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 12:33:37 AM
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PitaKat
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Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Eastern WA
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abraxas, your videos are actually the same video.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 12:37:12 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
So I got "called out" on a thread on a different forum for not being a gay marriage supporter. Hundreds of posters on that site and I'm on a list of 10 people who don't support gay marriage. Im not even really sure when I was giving my particular views on the subject, but I've been a member on the site for a year and a half, so I guess it must've come up at some point...
Anyway, seeing my name on that list made me feel HORRIBLE I don't want to be seen as a hater, but I am. I'm also seen as a bigot and as ignorant. I cannot just ignore it because my personality is "people-pleaser". I cannot stand people disliking me, that's just the way I am. I accept that and always keep it in mind, but it makes me feel really bad at times...
So I need some answers. Why, other than because it says it's wrong in the bible, is homosexuality wrong? I ask because I know what the bible says, but when defending my views I need something other than the bible as many people do not believe it.
How would gay marriage being legalized affect my marriage? My husband supports gay rights. He says he doesn't see how it effects us. To be honest, I don't see how it would effect us either...
Are all homosexuals born that way? My very conservative parents believe that no one is born that way (as in, circumstances in a homosexual's life made him feel attracted to the same sex), but gay marriage supporters say that all homosexuals are born that way.
In what ways can you love someone you are not supporting (supporting politically or otherwise)?
I'm sure these questions have been answered already, but 145 pages is a lot to try to go through...
Gosh I know how you feel! I went through something like that when I made a comment on facebook. And now I'm seeing comments on there saying that not supporting virtual gay marriage is "appaling, sickening, and disgusting" 
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 1:17:34 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Gosh I know how you feel! I went through something like that when I made a comment on facebook. And now I'm seeing comments on there saying that not supporting virtual gay marriage is "appaling, sickening, and disgusting"
Thank you WanderingLamb. It's hard when people label you stuff like that, isn't it? That's not how I am at all I love people, all people, I'm a very nice person. It shook me, and I'm questioning a few things now, and I don't like to be that questioning stage, it's not comfortable...
Hey PitaKat, maybe you should see my thread called "How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided?"
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 1:29:45 AM
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PitaKat
Posts: 132
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Eastern WA
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I'll do that, WanderingLamb, is it located in Morality & Ethics?
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 2:53:50 PM
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PitaKat
Posts: 132
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Eastern WA
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I haven't been able to locate the "How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided?" thread. Does anyone know where it is?
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 2:58:04 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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It's under General faith. Here is the link. I hope it works!
http://forums.crosswalk.com/General+Faith/m_4599780/mpage_2/tm.htm#4614566
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 1:33:26 PM
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psalm19-7
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As Ray Comfort would say:
“The law was not made for a righteous man but for sinners.” It even lists the sinners: homosexuals, fornicators. If you want to bring a homosexual to Christ, don’t get into an argument with him over his perversion; he’s ready for you with his boxing gloves on. No, no. Give him the ten commandments. The law was made for homosexuals. Show him that he is damned despite his perversion.
It's a life style period. Honor God or mans desire
http://www.psalm19-7.com/homosexuality-in-society.html
http://www.psalm19-7.com/homosexuality-in-schools.html
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 2:49:31 PM
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PitaKat
Posts: 132
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From: Eastern WA
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Part of the reason I'm having so much trouble with this is because it does seem at times that many christians are picking and choosing what to follow from the old testament. Homosexuality isn't even in the 10 commandments, which would seem to be the most important parts of the law. So, if we're picking and choosing what to not to do, why are we choosing homosexuality?
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 4:35:09 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
Part of the reason I'm having so much trouble with this is because it does seem at times that many christians are picking and choosing what to follow from the old testament. Homosexuality isn't even in the 10 commandments, which would seem to be the most important parts of the law. So, if we're picking and choosing what to not to do, why are we choosing homosexuality?
Do you not agree that the Scriptures Old and New speak of homosexuality as a sin?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 4:43:50 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
Part of the reason I'm having so much trouble with this is because it does seem at times that many christians are picking and choosing what to follow from the old testament. Homosexuality isn't even in the 10 commandments, which would seem to be the most important parts of the law. So, if we're picking and choosing what to not to do, why are we choosing homosexuality?
Yet sexual morality was considered as binding on us Gentiles by the first Christian Church Fathers as it was for the Jews.
quote:
1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
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A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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