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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 5:46:59 PM
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PitaKat
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Marcus, I'm not sure I understand the meaning of your post.
quote:
Do you not agree that the Scriptures Old and New speak of homosexuality as a sin?
I do agree with that. I guess my issue was that with all the laws that God has in the Old Testament, we pick and choose which ones to follow. http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/practices/613.htm Can anyone say they actually follow all of those? They're all in the Old Testament. But are we holding it over anyone's head that they're not honoring the Sabbath (which actually IS in the 10 commandments) the way we hold it over people's heads that they're homosexual? So you can see where I was having an issue.
But Romans 1:26-27 has pretty much answered my questioning. Thank you.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2009 10:22:07 PM
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cberman
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I think it is a misinterpretation of Scripture to suggest that homosexuality is a sin.
OT: It must be remembered that 'abomination' simply means 'whatever we, as a culture, don't do'. Eating shrimp was an abomination. Women wearing pants was an abomination.
NT: In Romans 1, the condemnation of homosexuality is accompanied by an over-arching sin: idolatry. The sin is idolatry, not the accompanying results. Homosexuality is just a side detail. In the other verses, we find language of 'homosexual offenders'. A glance at the historical context shows that Paul was writing to a culture in which cultic, homosexual prostitution was rather common-place. This is what Paul condemns, not homosexuality itself.
Monogamous, homosexual love is not a sin.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:00:12 AM
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Marcus.
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I was told once by someone who knew Hebrew that the word for abomination conveyed the meaning to vomit or spew out. It is a negative word and not neutral. Homosexuality was considered such a perversion that it was rarely if ever mentioned directly and similar to God's Holy Name substitutes were used.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:03:19 AM
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Marcus.
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In Romans 1 God gave a very broad prohibition against homosexuality. God is God. If He meant idolatry He would have said so. Whatever the historical reason God banned all homosexual sex.
Where is Scripture does it say that it was idolatry anyway. I see no references anywhere for that.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:04:26 AM
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Marcus.
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Homosexuals are included in the list of unrepentant sinners who are barred entry into Heaven as well.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:23:59 AM
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cberman
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First post: Abomination is negative, yes, but it is not a description of eternal 'sin'. Again, shrimp was described as an abomination.
Second post: Paul wrote Romans, not God. God inspired Paul, but Paul wrote it. Just to be clear. And Paul did say idolatry. Verse 23: '[they] exchanged the glory of incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures'. Perhaps it can be argued that Paul is merely referring to the worship of deities other than God, but he is most certainly referring to worship given to something other than God. That is the cause of their homosexuality. It is not the central sin being described (and set up in verses 18-23).
Third post: Where?
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 1:03:04 AM
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Marcus.
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Yes but eating shrimp didn't have a death penalty punishment assigned to it by God. In Leviticus in the same passage the homosexual sex is described with the other sins in the passage as having defiled the land and been spewed out and cut off from the rest of the people. These sins caused God to judge those that practiced them. In verse 20 the death penalty is assigned for homosexual sex.
Leviticus 18:24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled. 25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants. 26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, {neither} the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you 27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); 28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you. 29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do {so} shall be cut off from among their people. 30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.' "
Leviticus 20:13 ' If {there is} a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. '
So are you saying Paul changed God's Word to suit himself? Are there other passages of Paul you disagree with or dispute? Paul would have been aware that to change God's Word was to diminish his reward in Heaven or even throw it away entirely. It is good that you acknowledge the plain text there at least. Paul was teaching us what God does to those who reject Him. Further in that verse Paul describes the lust women had for each other as degrading, men's desire for men indecent, and error. Note that the desire of a man for a woman or a woman for a man is described as natural. That isn't used to describe same sex attraction or sex.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 1:59:51 AM
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Kath
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 10:34:51 AM
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cberman
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...
Looks like this is not a topic for "heretics" like Lutherans or Episcopalians, then.
Not much of a community that doesn't accept all orthodox Christians. I'm not so sure I want to stay here.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 10:48:30 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cberman
...
Looks like this is not a topic for "heretics" like Lutherans or Episcopalians, then.
Not much of a community that doesn't accept all orthodox Christians. I'm not so sure I want to stay here.
Well yuo may be correct; Heretic means divisive, and the acceptance of homosexuality by some of the Luthern leadereships, and some of the Episcopalians leadership has certain divided thier denominatins, possibly to the point of destruction. which of course was Satan's plan when he put the "All inclusive" thought into certain of those leaders.
Praise God that not all of the rand and file have followed thier leadership down this pathway to destruction.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 10:50:40 AM
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cberman
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I'll bet you're a Protestant too, eh?
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 11:41:08 AM
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Marcus.
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Considering homosexuality moral isn't an orthodox belief.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 11:54:26 AM
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cberman
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Says who? You?
Perhaps not according to your tradition. But, by that (weak and non-historical) standard, Lutherans and Episcopals can very easily call YOU unorthodox.
I'm fairly certain discrimination against homosexuals is not part of official, Christian orthodoxy.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:22:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cberman
Says who? You?
Perhaps not according to your tradition. But, by that (weak and non-historical) standard, Lutherans and Episcopals can very easily call YOU unorthodox.
I'm fairly certain discrimination against homosexuals is not part of official, Christian orthodoxy.
The acceptance of homosexuality is fairly recent in the Christian church. The exception would be a couple of corrupt popes and probably a few people who made efforts to hide it. This is a fact of history and impossible to deny and be intellectually honest.
Churches which accept homosexuality are most certainly not orthodox by any meaningful standard except by altering the definition of orthodoxy.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orthodox
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 11/8/2009 4:43:42 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 12:57:59 PM
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Marcus.
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It's not about discrimination but what God has to say about it. Considering the church history. Belief that homosexuality is moral would be in the extreme minority opinion. That idea has never gained any longevity within orthodox circles.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/8/2009 1:06:00 PM >
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 1:06:56 PM
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cberman
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The church has been mistaken. The whims of orthodoxy (and they are, in many cases, whims) do not extend to every belief that a Christian might hold. For example, there is no 'orthodox' position on whether or not women may be allowed to wear pants.
For 'orthodoxy', I think of the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed says nothing about homosexuality.
To be fair, it doesn't say anything about other things commonly accepted as sins, such as murder and lying, but these things have unquestionable Scriptural support. The Scriptural support for homosexuality as sin is very questionable, and has indeed been rejected as a misinterpretation by a very large number of Christians. Racism, for example, existed in the Roman, first-century AD culture, and has been a very large part of Christian culture through history (including a large portion of Southern Christians in 19th century America who supported slavery through the use of Scripture).
Marcus, Graham, you two do not get to decide what orthodoxy is and isn't based upon your personal beliefs. Orthodoxy is much more basic and communal than that. You might not think homosexuality is good or blessed, but there are a large number of Christians who do, and that must be taken into account.
All of that said, this forum is apparently not open-minded or willing to represent believers who do not fit into its narrow, belief system, so I will not be responding further to this topic, nor will I be participating any more in this forum. It is a club, not a community, and it's clear I do not meet its criteria.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 1:24:19 PM
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Marcus.
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I am not establishing orthodoxy merely mentioning what is considered orthodox. The verses on homosexuality haven't been considered misinterpreted until the homosexual activist movement started. The number of apostate who believe to be good and moral is a small number compared with the body of Christ. His words determine right and wrong, life and death. We don't get to reinvent them because we disagree with them. To do so is to make ourselves out to be god and throw away our salvation.
There are a few verses I don't like but I won't live on my own word. I may not understand God's view on them but I won't dispute Him. I will accept that my view is limited and trust Him and His Word.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/8/2009 1:31:27 PM >
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 2:03:38 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cberman
Marcus, Graham, you two do not get to decide what orthodoxy is and isn't based upon your personal beliefs. Orthodoxy is much more basic and communal than that. You might not think homosexuality is good or blessed, but there are a large number of Christians who do, and that must be taken into account.
No, I don't. But orthodoxy is not about consensus. I really don't care that liberals have little or no sense of history. Revisionism. That's the key.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2009 4:21:10 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cberman
I'll bet you're a Protestant too, eh?
Actually no, but what difference would that make? The truth of Scripture is the truth of Scrptue; period.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2009 12:53:25 AM
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Marcus.
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Have they tried having the elders of their church bless them per? An exorcism comes to mind as well.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2009 7:00:11 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I need some advice for someone I know, who's NOT a homosexual or lesbian and considers homosexuality to be a sinful behavior. This person is being plagued by constant attacks of those type of thoughts, especially when under stress. This person is a born again Christian, who would never engage in that type of behavior.
They've tried crying out to God in prayer, reading and studying the Bible more, quoting scriptures against the devil, everything. Still the attacks continue. This person feels miserable and wonders why this is happening to them. What more can this person do to stop these attacks?
I would recommend Exodus International. They should be able to provide a number of resources for anyone struggling with this problem. And they should have a number of book resources available for you to read up on it. You are liable to get a number of unqualified opinions here.
http://www.exodusinternational.org/
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2009 8:28:09 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I need some advice for someone I know, who's NOT a homosexual or lesbian and considers homosexuality to be a sinful behavior. This person is being plagued by constant attacks of those type of thoughts, especially when under stress. This person is a born again Christian, who would never engage in that type of behavior.
Marcus gives good advice as to going to the leadership of the Church, and I would also reccomend the person to study 1 Cor 10:13, and believe the Word and promises of God.
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
There is always a God given route of escape for temptation when it come to a Believer, we just have to choose it.
Also the person might want to do this with his thought patters as the instant any ungodly thought comes;
(2Co 10:5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
God has given us a way to handle evil thoughts and temptations, we just have to choose to do so.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/9/2009 8:34:40 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2009 10:41:24 PM
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souljaboy
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quote:
They've tried crying out to God in prayer, reading and studying the Bible more, quoting scriptures against the devil, everything. Still the attacks continue. This person feels miserable and wonders why this is happening to them. What more can this person do to stop these attacks?
Can I suggest that the most likely reason that this is happening is due to the fact that he trying to deal with the fruit, not the root. Homosexuality is the product of rejection cause by a non-existant or distant relationship with their father.
This may be actual or perceived, but it is real nevertheless. I knew one young man who was one of three brothers. When their father came home, he would hug his older brother and his younger brother, but not him.
When a man did hug him who was a homosexual, the rest followed. The sex thing wasn't major for him, but it was a way to get love and acceptance.
The best thing to do is to get him to talk about his father, letting him know he can say anything he wants and its OK. Once the feeling of rejection comes out, you can start to deal with the situation.
One thing is crucial is that he forgives his father as that will be a barrier to his healing. Once he has done that he can ask God to heal him of the problem and set him free from rejection. As it is a spirit do not be surprised in a manifestation occurs.
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