RE: is suicide forgiven? (Full Version)

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His_4_Ever -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:22:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Robert_G

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus


However, if one's ability to reason is seriously hampered by disease, then, no, it's not sin.



I'd like to see that statement backed up with scripture...

When God gave Moses the 10 commandments he said this:

Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
Now...the problem here is, I'm looking for some technicalities...but, they just aren't there. The text simply says "Do not murder".

Lets look at some more scripture.

Exodus 21: 12-13 12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.

If it isn't intentional, then it is NOT suicide...its an accident.
Here again....I'm looking for technicalities, but I don't see them here either.

Back in the day, if you murdered, you were put to death. Apparantly disease did NOT get you out of the death penalty.

We can see that in Bible times, God did NOT accept intentional murder as acceptatble, regardless of condition of that person.

Anyways...Eutychus, if you want to dispute this, please back it up with scripture.

Thanks,

Robert.


The problem is back in the day they didn't know what or how to treat most diseases or mental illness. We have progressed quite a bit since then. Also when Jesus came across those who were demon possessed (not in their right minds) I don't recall Jesus condemning or blaming them for their actions.

Could you please explain to me exactly what the punishment would have been for someone who committed suicide back then, since the punishment for murder was death. You don't know if they put those they thought were crazy to death for murder. For all you know they could have had mercy on them or just treated them like lepers. That passage you list says "nothing", "zilch" about putting to death those who commit murder, who are not in their right mind. I would think it would fall under "unintentional," anyway if they don't realize what they're doing.



Eutychus -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 7:59:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Robert_G

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus


However, if one's ability to reason is seriously hampered by disease, then, no, it's not sin.



I'd like to see that statement backed up with scripture...

You must think I sit around and make stuff up after more than 4 decades as a Christian and a student of scripture. But I'll confess that there was a time I was more opinion than spiritual substance due to a lack of time spent reading the Bible than just talking about snippets and what I thought it ought to say. Not that anyone here would do such a thing.

Anywhat, there are at the very least a dozen instances in the OT where "IGNORANCE" was a mitigating factor in the penalty of sin against the law. Six are in Leviticus and six are in Numbers. There are more that also give the same sense in various penalties. I'll let you the research. But so I'm not accused of making it up, here is a single one:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them...

The principle throughout is willful sin with understanding brings God's severe penalty - even in the case of murder. Unintentional or sin without rational thought is not held to the same standard as premeditated, well thought out murder.

Otherwise, you'd have seriously retarded children or someone with a raging fever acting out of their mind being sent to hell.

Once again I am reminded how thankful I am that it is God that judges and not some of His opinionated people.



TorchHeart -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 2:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: R2008

I love God & Jesus very much but I am haveing a very hard time,I was born premature and I am a special needs person and I live with my parents,They treat me very Well and I know I am loved,and they see that I get everything I possibley need and want so no one in my family is the cause for my feelings

But the problems with life,not being able to work and do things like everyone else,really gets me down,I lost one of my only true friends back in 2004 in a car accident and that has really hurt my life and my outlook as I was already dealing with things that were just hard for me to accept mainly the things that I canno't change,

I've never had a relationship with anyone or that special someone and that makes me lonly too sometimes,

I really deal with Deep depression at times and I fight it daily and theres times where I just want to give up and just quit,theres times where I just don't want to fight,

I feel I have some form of a mental illness but my family and I've told many think that I am fine and maybe there right or maybe its just me,

I do deeply love God & Jesus Christ and I know it says Thou Shalt not Kill but it does say the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the HolyGhost, I've never done that the way I read it means to speak against it,

If Someone is so truely sad and down and feel they can not go on bescase in there mind they feel they have no purpose or anything to really shoot for and they were honest with God about how they felt and that they just wanted to be with him is there anyway they could get mercy or grace threw God's Love I mean He sees us inside and out and he knows all about us,

if a person prayes and tells God they just want to be with him and they can't take the way things are would God grant mercy to that person if that person truely was honest with God about what they were wanting to do?

I defently believe in God I just have a hard time with depression and I have adhd as well as some form of Bi-polar

I love my family deeply but I also feel depressed and its just hard for me and I just sometimes want out of my emotional and deep sorrow at times,


Thank you all for your time.[:(]



That sounds very hard, but you can't give up. You need to trust that Christ wants you on this earth for some reason and the He'll show you why all this has happened once you get to that point.



sparkleingsnow -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 2:44:39 PM)

R2008 I am praying for you. Please seek help. The Lord loves you so and has a purpose for your being here.



GodsMusic -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 2:45:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

The principle throughout is willful sin with understanding brings God's severe penalty - even in the case of murder. Unintentional or sin without rational thought is not held to the same standard as premeditated, well thought out murder.

Otherwise, you'd have seriously retarded children or someone with a raging fever acting out of their mind being sent to hell.

Once again I am reminded how thankful I am that it is God that judges and not some of His opinionated people.


I said I was through with this thread, but you have pulled me back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BIBLE (Book of Acts)
ACTS 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:







So according to your way of thinking, if say a someone gets depressed in their marriage, then divorcing or an affair is understandable. God winks at it.

According to your way of thinking, if a person had a chemical imbalance and goes out and blows the brains out of his next door neighbor in a fit of rage, well, it's not premeditated and the man was insane, so that isn't something God will hold against him.

Eutychus, you have not ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE to back any of this non-sense up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BIBLE
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.



BTW, there is not a single fact to substantiate so called chemical imbalance is real, unlike cancer, heart disease, AIDS or a million other ailements. However, if it were so there is no scripture that would give someone an excuse to sin if such an ailment existed.



Eutychus -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:08:48 PM)

quote:

I said I was through with this thread, but you have pulled me back.

Don't think I'm surprised in the least. [sm=aside.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Eutychus, you have not ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE to back any of this non-sense up.

I have and you choose to ignore it. Your decision. Again, I'm not surprised in the least.

quote:

BTW, there is not a single fact to substantiate so called chemical imbalance is real...

I sincerely wish I could answer you as bluntly as I would if we were face to face - even in your Sunday School class or in front of your family - none of it cursing nor obscene. But the TOS prevents me.

Have you done the least amount of research to support your opinions? If so, how about sharing.

While we wait, here's a little light reading on bipolar disorder from WebMd.


Here's another on causes of clinical depression. Be sure to read the first paragraph.



PinkCarnations -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:11:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
BTW, there is not a single fact to substantiate so called chemical imbalance is real, unlike cancer, heart disease, AIDS or a million other ailements. However, if it were so there is no scripture that would give someone an excuse to sin if such an ailment existed.


Then how come you don't go over to the Mental Health DEBATE thread and make that claim?



GodsMusic -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:11:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

I said I was through with this thread, but you have pulled me back.

Don't think I'm surprised in the least. [sm=aside.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Eutychus, you have not ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE to back any of this non-sense up.

I have and you choose to ignore it. Your decision. Again, I'm not surprised in the least.

quote:

BTW, there is not a single fact to substantiate so called chemical imbalance is real...

I sincerely wish I could answer you as bluntly as I would if we were face to face - even in your Sunday School class or in front of your family - none of it cursing nor obscene. But the TOS prevents me.

Have you done the least amount of research to support your opinions? If so, how about sharing.

While we wait, here's a little light reading on bipolar disorder from WebMd.


Here's another on causes of clinical depression. Be sure to read the first paragraph.



You don't get surprised because your such a wise man, right?

You seem to have left the meat of my post (God's Holy Word) completely out of your response.

Guess what? I'm not surprised in the least.



Eutychus -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:22:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
You ....

You have no answer for my question, then - you have no basis for your claims.

As I have provided scripture to support my POV, I provided links to a respected medical site to refute your opinion. As with the scripture, you chose not to check it out.



phosadaud -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:26:40 PM)

First of all, there is a HUGE difference between simply being depressed and doing something wrong and being MENTALLY INCAPABLE of knowing what you are doing. As has been reported numerous times throughout this thread, Scripture is replete with examples of folks who were not in their right mind and God didn't condemn them - He HEALED them. [;)]

I would challenge those who believe that one is always capable of distinguishing reality to work in a nursing home sometime. Care for those who have Alzheimers or Schizophrenia or head injuries and strokes or severe mental retardation and then come in here and tell us that those folks with those conditions are held to the same standard as you and me who have no physical brain defects and such.



GodsMusic -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:29:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
You ....

You have no answer for my question, then - you have no basis for your claims.

As I have provided scripture to support my POV, I provided links to a respected medical site to refute your opinion. As with the scripture, you chose not to check it out.

My friend, WebMD is not quite as credible as God's Word. WebMD along with science everywhere changes with the wind.

But let me back up a sec, you say so called medical science takes precedence of God's word?

Please don't tell me your a minister.



karlie -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (1/20/2009 3:33:17 PM)

Attention: Moderator's Note:

This has gotten overheated and many posts are bordering on personal attacks. Everyone needs to step back and take a little breather for awhile, therefore, this thread is closed until further notice.

Please do not reply to this message within the Community, or PM me regarding this message.

Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.

Sincerely,

Karlie
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