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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 12:27:26 AM
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Robert_G
Posts: 237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I would never say dogmatically that there will be more people in the lake of fire than there will be that are saved.
Why would it be dogmatic? Scripture is crystal clear in saying that there will be more people in hell then in heaven. I too wish that everyone would go to heaven, but it just isn't so.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I just said that the Bible seems to indicate that few find the way to life. To me, that is saying that the majority do not find the way (otherwise, why use the word "few"?).
Seems to indicate??? Again....its black and white. A large majority of mankind WILL go to hell. I realize how painful it can be to think of, but the fact remains that our feelings do NOT trump scripture....regardless of how horrible the facts may seem.
Matthew 7: 13-14 13. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Notice Jesus used completely opposite words in this scripture...MANY and FEW. To assume he meant anything else would be bad interpretation.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 12:43:03 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
According to the quotes, it appears that you are arguing that it is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life.
(Based on the fact that you are asking for prove to cchris' statement, "Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.")
Based on my quotes, I am arguing that I do not think that a person committing suicide is proof positive that the person had a "mental illness" (in the context in which this is being discussed this would be where the person would not be responsible for his actions). I never made a factual statement about this.
Here is a run-down of what all was said:
quote:
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
(This is basically a statement of fact...in the context it seems to be saying that suicide requires a chemical imbalance, mental illness, etc.)
To this I responded, ‘This assumes that suicide only results from "chemical imbalances, mental illness or disease".’
I did not make a statement of fact about what type of state of mind one must have to commit suicide. I said one has to assume what he said, meaning I do not see how it could be proven. Notice I did not say dogmatically that he was wrong and that suicide can happen in a “healthy” state of mind. (In this discussion I am not including when one voluntarily gives his life to save the life of another…I would hope that some if not most would agree that this decision does not have to involve an unhealthy mind)
Then this was said,
quote:
So, you really assume that a completely rational person decides one day to commit suicide like, say, you'd decide to drink a Diet Moutain Dew?
Really?
Completely rational?
Amazing.
(In retrospec I should have said how one deciding what one wants to drink is completely different from one contemplating whether or not to end his life.)
To this I said, '“I would not say that irrational decisions are always proof positive of a "chemical imbalance, etc".'
Again, I did not make a dogmatic statement. I just said what I would not say...indicating what I believed to be the case.
And this was said, quote:
Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.
This again is a statement of fact.
Usually if one can state something as fact, that person should be able to back up that fact with evidence, references, etc., which is why I asked for proof that his factual statement was true.
I have not and would not dogmatically make a statement about what type of “mental health” one must have to commit suicide. My belief/opinion is that just because one commits suicide does not mean that the person was mentally ill (in the sense of where the person was not responsible for his actions). I have reasons why I believe this to be the case, just as I am sure those that believe otherwise have their reasons. However, what was said by others here were statements of fact and not of opinion.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 12:45:57 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I would never say dogmatically that there will be more people in the lake of fire than there will be that are saved.
Why would it be dogmatic? Scripture is crystal clear in saying that there will be more people in hell then in heaven. I too wish that everyone would go to heaven, but it just isn't so.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I just said that the Bible seems to indicate that few find the way to life. To me, that is saying that the majority do not find the way (otherwise, why use the word "few"?).
Seems to indicate??? Again....its black and white. A large majority of mankind WILL go to hell. I realize how painful it can be to think of, but the fact remains that our feelings do NOT trump scripture....regardless of how horrible the facts may seem.
Matthew 7: 13-14 13. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Notice Jesus used completely opposite words in this scripture...MANY and FEW. To assume he meant anything else would be bad interpretation.
Oh, I agree with you, and this is what I believe the Bible idicates by what it says. I was trying to respond to a person that apparently believes the opposite of this, and I guess I approached it the way I did just in case I was wrong in my interpretation of those verses.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 1:14:34 AM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 269
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
The real question is whether the person who premeditated their own murder was ever a Christian in the FIRST PLACE???
The Hall of Fame in Hebrews Chapter 11 includes Samson. Did he not de facto commit suicide?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 8:30:41 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
According to the quotes, it appears that you are arguing that it is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life.
(Based on the fact that you are asking for prove to cchris' statement, "Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.")
Based on my quotes, I am arguing that I do not think that a person committing suicide is proof positive that the person had a "mental illness" (in the context in which this is being discussed this would be where the person would not be responsible for his actions). I never made a factual statement about this.
Here is a run-down of what all was said: Actually, CCCdnt, I don't need a run-down of what was said. I read, write and comprehend English extremely well.
My saying that "you are arguing that is is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life is the very same thing as your saying you do not think that a person committing suicide is proof positive that the person had a "mental illness".
Either way, you still have not disproven cchris' statement, "Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself." OR, to phrase it another way, you still have not proven your argument "that it is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life."
.
< Message edited by WhiteRoseBlessings -- 5/14/2008 8:58:05 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 8:57:31 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4749
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
But you're arguing it so surely you must have valid reason (proof) of your argument.
No, it just means she has a premise and God's word, somehow, must fit her premise.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 9:08:59 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Yes it is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life. (I know someone who make a "logical" decision to take his life inorder to spare his family)
My grandmother knew she would die some 65 years ago when she discovered she was pregnant. Her doctors told her she "must" have an abortion. She said no. She died giving birth.
Today if I had to choose to give up my heart so that my child could live I would do that.
and
Yes God forgives "all" our sins when we ask him to be our Lord and Savior. Past, present and future. I am not at all sure we should make "taking ones life" automatically equals sin. In some cases it's the most loving act we can do for others.
Greater love hath no man than he should lay down his life for a friend.
quote:
People do not rationally decide to take their own life. It goes against the very human nature and survival instinct humans are born with.
Sometimes people allow themselves to die from starvation so that their "children" can survive. Some people have "frozen to death" inorder to insure others were safe and warm. Some people go to war inorder to insure their children, loved ones and family are safe.
Lottie Moon the famous missionary to China died from starvation. She gave her food to the children in her school. She wanted them to remain alive inorder to tell others about Christ.
When robbers put a gun to my forehead my husband stepped in front of the gunmen and tried to protect me. He was willing to die inorder to allow me to live. (man do I have a great husband or what!!!!!)
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/14/2008 9:22:04 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 9:19:29 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1923
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The Hall of Fame in Hebrews Chapter 11 includes Samson. Did he not de facto commit suicide?
I believe you are correct. I also believe there are others mentioned in that chapter who gave up their life as well.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:02:54 AM
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Robert_G
Posts: 237
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
The real question is whether the person who premeditated their own murder was ever a Christian in the FIRST PLACE???
The Hall of Fame in Hebrews Chapter 11 includes Samson. Did he not de facto commit suicide?
A completely different ballpark.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:03:24 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
First of all, I believe what I believe about salvation not because I tried to justify the belief but because of what God's Word says.
Or what you THINK God's word means...
Your statement does little to further this, as I could say the same thing about you.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:05:18 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
While every one of your examples are very loving and sacrificial, none of them show where a person has taken their own life. Most of them show where nature was allowed to take its course in order to help someone. One of them shows where the potential actions of someone else was allowed to take its course, but none of them show where someone interrupted nature and took their own life.
.
Are you saying that Samson did not take his own life? if one does an action that he knows will result in the loss of his life, would not this be a suicidal act?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:10:41 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4749
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
While every one of your examples are very loving and sacrificial, none of them show where a person has taken their own life. Most of them show where nature was allowed to take its course in order to help someone. One of them shows where the potential actions of someone else was allowed to take its course, but none of them show where someone interrupted nature and took their own life.
.
Are you saying that Samson did not take his own life? if one does an action that he knows will result in the loss of his life, would not this be a suicidal act?
Interesting that he did so while the Holy Spirit of God was upon him, huh?
Someone on this forum once carried your reasoning to its logical end and claimed that Jesus committed suicide because He willingly went and had the power to prevent and/or stop it. That's the sort of place where vain, spacious reasoning leads.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:15:05 AM
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cchris
Posts: 26
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It does say that few will find the path, but does that mean that all who fail to find the path will be rejected by God? What about 1 Corinthians: 14-15?
quote:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
When I speak of suicide I am referring specifically to the case of a person taking their own life because they do not want to face it any longer. When I said an unhealthy mind, I wasn´t necessarily referring to a mental disorder. Rather, I meant someone under extreme emotional distress of the sort that makes that person rather die than continue to live, as opposed to a healthy mind, being one that is stable and secure.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:18:28 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
It does say that few will find the path, but does that mean that all who fail to find the path will be rejected by God? What about 1 Corinthians: 14-15?
quote:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
When I speak of suicide I am referring specifically to the case of a person taking their own life because they do not want to face it any longer. When I said an unhealthy mind, I wasn´t necessarily referring to a mental disorder. Rather, I meant someone under extreme emotional distress of the sort that makes that person rather die than continue to live, as opposed to a healthy mind, being one that is stable and secure.
And again, yet another good post, cchris.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:32:22 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
Actually, CCCdnt, I don't need a run-down of what was said. I read, write and comprehend English extremely well.
I never said nor tried to imply otherwise.
quote:
My saying that "you are arguing that is is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life is the very same thing as your saying you do not think that a person committing suicide is proof positive that the person had a "mental illness".
Either way, you still have not disproven cchris' statement, "Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself." OR, to phrase it another way, you still have not proven your argument "that it is possible for a person in a healthy state of mind to take their own life."
.
To clarify, I have not been trying to prove that a person in a healthy state of mine can take his own life. I was questioning something that was stated as fact.
The burden of proof is on the one making a claim. Two people on here had said rather dogmatically that a person would only commit suicide if the person had a mental illness, etc. I basically was asking what proof/evidence they had for this. My opinion is irrevelant to this. I could be undecided on the issue. If I were undecided I could have been looking for answers in my search to try to make a decision and approached this asking for evidence that backs up their claim. If one cannot back up a claim, then the statement is just an opinion.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:35:48 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
While every one of your examples are very loving and sacrificial, none of them show where a person has taken their own life. Most of them show where nature was allowed to take its course in order to help someone. One of them shows where the potential actions of someone else was allowed to take its course, but none of them show where someone interrupted nature and took their own life.
.
Are you saying that Samson did not take his own life? if one does an action that he knows will result in the loss of his life, would not this be a suicidal act?
Interesting that he did so while the Holy Spirit of God was upon him, huh?
Someone on this forum once carried your reasoning to its logical end and claimed that Jesus committed suicide because He willingly went and had the power to prevent and/or stop it. That's the sort of place where vain, spacious reasoning leads.
A statement such as, “only a person with a mental illness or chemical imbalance could commit suicide” is a blanket statement is it not? One of my points is that I don’t think this is true because there are situations which I think show contrary…Samson being an example.
I also never said that all examples of where a person chooses to die would be examples of selfish suicide. There is nothing wrong, for example, if one gives up his life to save the life of another. Jesus said that there was no greater love than this. One example would be a soldier that commits suicide by throwing himself on a grenade to save the lives of the soldiers around him (I once said on this forum that this would not be suicide, as I had associated the word “suicide” with a person killing himself for selfish reasons. Someone posted the definition of suicide as one ending his own life; by that definition, the reasons for killing oneself would not matter. I do not remember where the person got the definition of suicide from.). I guess it is still hard for me to call this suicide because the word “suicide” usually has negative connotations attached to it. What Jesus did is a good example. His reasons for giving up His life certainly were not selfish. Therefore, if what one wants to define what He did as suicide, I would say it was selfless suicide. I guess in that sense it comes down to how one defines what suicide is.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:39:40 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
It does say that few will find the path, but does that mean that all who fail to find the path will be rejected by God?
The Bible says that there is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus. Therefore, the “narrow path” spoken of that leads to life can only be referring to the path that leads to Jesus can it not? Would this not mean then that those that do not take that path will not be saved?
quote:
When I speak of suicide I am referring specifically to the case of a person taking their own life because they do not want to face it any longer. When I said an unhealthy mind, I wasn´t necessarily referring to a mental disorder. Rather, I meant someone under extreme emotional distress of the sort that makes that person rather die than continue to live, as opposed to a healthy mind, being one that is stable and secure.
I did not know that one of the ways you were defining an “unhealthy mind” was a person under extreme emotional stress, and, therefore not reasoning rationally because of this.
However, what about someone that decides to follow Satan and that decides to kill himself because he is deceived to believe that Satan will allow him to rule with him if he does so? What about those that are members of some kind of cult and where the cult leader convinces them that by taking their own life, they will achieve a “higher state of consciousness?” Again, I think this could be an example of someone that was not depressed, mentally ill, etc. This would be another example of where one was deceived.
If you have just been speaking of suicide in the context of when it is committed because the person is severely depressed, scared, etc., then this was not specifically specified. The statements made about one taking his life seemed to be blanket statements.
I would not try to “prove” or “disprove” that suicide always equals an unhealthy mind in all situations because I do see how this could be proven or disproven. No one but God truly knows a person’s state of mind.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:41:05 AM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Just because you have read scripture and come to a conclusion in NO way means you've arrived at it's intended meaning.
This could be said of anyone.
quote:
I could retire in luxury if I had a dollar for everyone I've encountered that has made your claim that their belief was based on what "God's Word says" - without coming close to its meaning.
What exactly did I say again that I believed about salvation that you believe the Bible does not support?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:43:14 AM
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