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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 1:47:49 PM
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cchris
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/12/2008
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I don´t want to get into a debate over the technicalities of a definition.
After all is said and done, only God knows whether a person is worthy of being excused for any particular sin. I wouldn`t even begin to know. But for the price that was payed, whatever decision is beyond reproach.
I agree with you, Jesus is the only path to salvation. However, I believe that Jesus can guide any soul that he wants, even if it has to be done from beyond the grave.
quote:
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
< Message edited by cchris -- 5/14/2008 2:05:49 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 4:15:10 PM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 642
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
I don´t want to get into a debate over the technicalities of a definition.
After all is said and done, only God knows whether a person is worthy of being excused for any particular sin. I wouldn`t even begin to know. But for the price that was payed, whatever decision is beyond reproach.
I agree with you, Jesus is the only path to salvation. However, I believe that Jesus can guide any soul that he wants, even if it has to be done from beyond the grave.
quote:
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Of all the comments been made on this topic this is one of the rare ones I actually agree.
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 4:24:33 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 5:27:41 PM
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LivingParadox
Posts: 642
Joined: 2/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
We all make bad choices but that is not the same thing as deliberately taking one's life. I think smoking has been proven to kill people over time but it's not always what kill the person -- so I don't buy that logic.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 5:38:46 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
We all make bad choices but that is not the same thing as deliberately taking one's life. I think smoking has been proven to kill people over time but it's not always what kill the person -- so I don't buy that logic.
The results are every bit the same and the principle, destroying our temple, is the same when deliberate choices are made. We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
I think this might be the sort of thing the Lord meant when He said that the measure we use to judge another will, in turn, be used against us by the only Just Judge.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 10:15:22 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 197
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
Yup..
Shooting a gun at my head and eating to much blood clotting icecream are the same thing. 
Come on.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
You mean like in the other thread where you basically insisted that smoking wasn't a sin??? Just wondering.....
As for Samson. Samson could not of brought the pillars down without God giving him his power. By having God literally give Samson the power to kill the Phillistines and himself as well, one could accurately say that the action of Samson was fully approved by God. By this time in the OT story of Samson, Samson was at deaths door...his eyes were gouged out and he was being tortured by the Phillistines for their own entertainment. Samson's earthly life was already over. So instead of pitying himself, or whatever, he finally FULLY submits his life to God and 'discusses' with God a plan of action, and in turn...taking down the pillars ended up being the will of God as we know, because God gave Samson the power to do it.
There was absolutely NOTHING cowardly in what Samson did. His actions were no less then what a true servant of God would do. Samson was not sitting 20 stories up a building whining how bad life has treated him, while contemplating death. He was focused on what God would want him to do. I can speak with full assurrance that God would not want any Christian sitting 20 stories up a building to jump off and kill themselves for nothing.
There is no question in my mind, that we will get to meet Samson in heaven one day.
My other point is this.
I find it odd that when it comes to suicide, how so many people downplay the seriousness of suicide when it comes to wondering if the person who killed themselves was a Christian or not.
If we were talking about a pedophile who raped and killed little children, I guarantee everyone in this thread would say that these pedophiles aren't Christians, or same with people who rob and kill little old ladies, but the opinions here seem to downplay people (and the seriousness of) who premeditate murder on themselves for whatever reasons.
Premeditated murder in cold blood is premeditated murder in cold blood no matter WHO the person is who gets killed.
_____________________________
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/14/2008 11:56:21 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 18169
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
My other point is this.
I find it odd that when it comes to suicide, how so many people downplay the seriousness of suicide when it comes to wondering if the person who killed themselves was a Christian or not.
If we were talking about a pedophile who raped and killed little children, I guarantee everyone in this thread would say that these pedophiles aren't Christians, or same with people who rob and kill little old ladies, but the opinions here seem to downplay people (and the seriousness of) who premeditate murder on themselves for whatever reasons.
Premeditated murder in cold blood is premeditated murder in cold blood no matter WHO the person is who gets killed.
First of all, are you talking about where these people will spend eternity? If you are, then you need to pay up on your guarantee. I abhor the crimes you have listed in the post, but I also know that people CAN turn their lives around; and no matter what we may think of someone, Our Lord knows their heart - just like he knows each of our hearts. If a person has truly repented and asked Our Lord into their life, then yes, that person IS a Christian; regardless of what I or anyone else might think of them.
Your posts are extremely harsh. I know this is a sensitive subject and I know that it affects me personally, but I can read other posts from people with whom I disagree on this topic and not find them to be as harsh as yours.
Where were you when I was holding my husband day after day and night after night as he sobbed in my arms?
Do you have any inkling of an idea how incredibly debilitating and humiliating that was for him?
Where were you when I would weep by myself after he left the house to go run an errand?
Where were you when I would throw-up from the stress being caused to both him and me from the disease of chemical depression exacerbated by emotional depression from which he battled?
Where were you when he and I would pray together?
Have you read any of his personal writings? Have you read how he felt about Our Lord? Have you read the myriad of entries he wrote trying to get a grasp on everything and seeking Our Lord's help?
Were you there during any of his and my discussions about faith and hope and trusting in Our Lord?
Were you there during any of the times we explored how to get him healthy on all levels - spiritually, emotionally and physically?
I wish you Our Lord's Peace in your heart and in your life.
edited: typos
< Message edited by WhiteRoseBlessings -- 5/15/2008 10:08:23 AM >
_____________________________
❖ Let's Discuss the Advent Season ❖
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/15/2008 12:37:34 AM
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Robert_G
Posts: 197
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
First of all, are you talking about where these people will spend eternity? If you are, then you need to pay up on your guarantee.
I abhor the crimes you have listed in the post, but I also know that people CAN turn their lives around; and no matter what we may think of someone, Our Lord knows their heart - just like he knows each of our hearts. If a person has truly repented and asked Our Lord into their life, then yes, that person IS a Christian; regardless of what I or anyone else might think of them.
You may be suprised, but I'm NOT one of the ones here saying that suicide guarantees hell. What I'm saying...is that by staying true to scripture....it would be a 'RARE exception' for someone who took their own life to have ever been a real Christian. That probably sounds harsh, but as I said before....we CANNOT put our feelings before scripture.
But....there ARE always exceptions in regards to this sort of thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
Your posts are extremely harsh. I know this is a sensitive subject and I know that it affects me personally, but I can read other posts from people of whom I disagree on this topic and not find them to be as harsh as yours.
Again...my apologies. I'm not out to hurt anyone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
Where were you when I was holding my husband day after day and night after night as he sobbed in my arms?
Do you have any inkling of an idea how incredibly debilitating and humiliating that was for him?
Where were you when I would weep by myself after he left the house to go run an errand?
Where were you when I would throw-up from the stress being caused to both him and me from the disease of chemical depression exacerbated by emotional depression from which he battled?
Where were you when he and I would pray together?
Have you read any of his personal writings? Have you how he felt about Our Lord? Have you read the myriad of entries he wrote trying to get a grasp on everything and seeking Our Lord's help?
Were you there during any of his and my discussions about faith and hope and trusting in Our Lord?
Were you there during any of the times we explored how to get him healthy on all levels - spiritual, emotional and physical?
I am only making 'general' statements in regard to the topic.
I just want to be clear that in no way am I trying to judge your husband...and I am truely sorry if I came across that way.
You knew your husbands faith well, and if you truely understand scripture, and believe he was a Christian, then you can be confident you'll see him again, and that's all the really matters.
_____________________________
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/15/2008 7:56:56 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Robert_G offered:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
You mean like in the other thread where you basically insisted that smoking wasn't a sin??? Just wondering.....
Okay, friend, I challenge you to show me where I ever implied that. If I did, I will retract it and apologize there and here. Otherwise, I'll take it as an unspported cheap shot.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/15/2008 8:14:46 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
As for Samson. Samson could not of brought the pillars down without God giving him his power. By having God literally give Samson the power to kill the Phillistines and himself as well, one could accurately say that the action of Samson was fully approved by God. By this time in the OT story of Samson, Samson was at deaths door...his eyes were gouged out and he was being tortured by the Phillistines for their own entertainment. Samson's earthly life was already over. So instead of pitying himself, or whatever, he finally FULLY submits his life to God and 'discusses' with God a plan of action, and in turn...taking down the pillars ended up being the will of God as we know, because God gave Samson the power to do it.
There was absolutely NOTHING cowardly in what Samson did. His actions were no less then what a true servant of God would do. Samson was not sitting 20 stories up a building whining how bad life has treated him, while contemplating death. He was focused on what God would want him to do. I can speak with full assurrance that God would not want any Christian sitting 20 stories up a building to jump off and kill themselves for nothing.
There is no question in my mind, that we will get to meet Samson in heaven one day.
My other point is this.
I find it odd that when it comes to suicide, how so many people downplay the seriousness of suicide when it comes to wondering if the person who killed themselves was a Christian or not.
If we were talking about a pedophile who raped and killed little children, I guarantee everyone in this thread would say that these pedophiles aren't Christians, or same with people who rob and kill little old ladies, but the opinions here seem to downplay people (and the seriousness of) who premeditate murder on themselves for whatever reasons.
Premeditated murder in cold blood is premeditated murder in cold blood no matter WHO the person is who gets killed.
So a brave suicide is okay... I mean, are you saying that mood mitigates taking one's life?
oh, and courageous Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" It sure looks like he chose to die, he premeditated his own death and had the option of praying for his own survival as a blind warrior who consistently lived his life over the edge.
quote:
I find it odd that when it comes to suicide, how so many people downplay the seriousness of suicide when it comes to wondering if the person who killed themselves was a Christian or not.
I'm equally appalled at people willing to consign another to eternal separation from God without a clue to how insidious the condition that lead them to the moment that ended their life.
One of the biggest soul winners, most sincere Christians, and a mentor of mine committed suicide a number of years ago. Cold-hearted people that place their eventual hope of heaven on their own self-righteous superiority probably looked down their noses at him and had no thoughts of comfort to his widow and family just as if he had lived his life as a pedophile who raped and killed little children or who robbed and kill little old ladies.
That type of attitude is a real-life example of the priest and the Levite who came across the robbed and beaten man along the road from Jerusalem to Jericho - in contrast to the good Samaritan who showed compassion.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/15/2008 8:26:05 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
It is beyond me to understand how a Christian could murder in premeditated cold blood, but again....I suppose there are exceptions..
That's the point exactly - you cannot understand it so you are will to assume the worst in every case based on your limited understanding.
Please, for everyone's sake, never go to another wake/visitation/funeral. however, if you do, then please for everyone's sake don't say a word.
FWIW, when I was your age I believed exactly like you do on the matter. I sincerely hope that you do not have to witness up-close-&-personal the things that it took to soften my heart and change my mind on the matter. Even if you were right on the matter, and you're not, voicing it does nothing for anyone hearing it and may cause as much or more pain than the death of one's infant child to hear you express it.
If that matters to you...
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/16/2008 12:04:09 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Robert_G offered:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
You mean like in the other thread where you basically insisted that smoking wasn't a sin??? Just wondering.....
Okay, friend, I challenge you to show me where I ever implied that. If I did, I will retract it and apologize there and here. Otherwise, I'll take it as an unspported cheap shot.
You've been online at least twice since I offered my challenge. I suppose it's too much to ever expect an apology, Mr. Robert_G...
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/16/2008 10:46:22 PM
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ladyichigo
Posts: 222
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Honolulu
Status: offline
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quote:
Where were you when I was holding my husband day after day and night after night as he sobbed in my arms?
Do you have any inkling of an idea how incredibly debilitating and humiliating that was for him?
Where were you when I would weep by myself after he left the house to go run an errand?
Where were you when I would throw-up from the stress being caused to both him and me from the disease of chemical depression exacerbated by emotional depression from which he battled?
Where were you when he and I would pray together?
Have you read any of his personal writings? Have you read how he felt about Our Lord? Have you read the myriad of entries he wrote trying to get a grasp on everything and seeking Our Lord's help?
Were you there during any of his and my discussions about faith and hope and trusting in Our Lord?
Were you there during any of the times we explored how to get him healthy on all levels - spiritually, emotionally and physically?
(((WhiteRose)))HUGS!!!
_____________________________
Mari
At the cross You beckon me. Draw me gently to my knees. I am lost for words, so lost in love, I'm sweetly broken, wholly surrendered.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/17/2008 5:57:56 AM
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everythingat
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
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JimboFletch, I can't believe I agree with you. But I do. Good job, buddy.
WhiteRoseBlessings, I'm with you. My best friend hung herself, and I was in love with her. I'm celibate now, mostly for that reason. I haven't met any person in my life who could even compare to the impact she had on me. At her viewing, they put a Superman shirt on her, I gave it to her a week before she committed suicide. They also pulled the skin under her chin over her neck to cover the bruises. It caused her mouth to be pulled into a frown. Never in my life have I experienced a more heartbreaking moment than to see her in the coffin with a frown on her face. It's been years since it happened, but I think of her multiple times every day. Typing this brought tears to my eyes, but that's the reality of life, I suppose.
I know my story isn't much help to this topic, and brings nothing new to the table. It is important to think of those who have committed this act to be real people. I personally believe that most people who get to the place to genuinely consider suicide and act on it are too far out of their mind to really think of the consequences. In my head, it's the same as committing a sin that you didn't know was a sin. You get to a place where nothing makes sense, and the only thing that truly does is a permanent solution to possible temporary problems. God is much more caring and understanding than most Christians would care to admit.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/19/2008 5:23:50 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 197
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Robert_G offered:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
You mean like in the other thread where you basically insisted that smoking wasn't a sin??? Just wondering.....
Okay, friend, I challenge you to show me where I ever implied that. If I did, I will retract it and apologize there and here. Otherwise, I'll take it as an unspported cheap shot.
In the other thread, I said addiction is idolatry. You said idolatry can't be chemically induced, and then went on with a sarcastic comment that I've noticed you use on more then one person in this forum.
I want to stay on topic, but to respond to this, I will say that regardless of whether it is chemically induced or whatever....addiction is addiction, and addiction to anything is idolatry.
Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
Addiction to wealth is in no way different then being addicted to nicotine. By you saying that idolatry cannot be chemically induced is basically looking for a loophole for a way to look like you aren't idolizing nicotine. Addiction to nicotine, porn, booze, gambling…anything….is ALL idolatry. I couldn’t careless of how (chemically or whatever) it crept into someone’s life. Idolatry is Idolatry.
The fact is, anyone addicted to nicotine, has fallen into idolatry.
In fact, focusing your energy and thoughts on yourself so extreme to a point where you are suicidal, is also idolatry…and that’s scriptural whether you believe me or not.
One master…and one master only….
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
So a brave suicide is okay... I mean, are you saying that mood mitigates taking one's life?
oh, and courageous Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" It sure looks like he chose to die, he premeditated his own death and had the option of praying for his own survival as a blind warrior who consistently lived his life over the edge.
I'm sorry, but this is sad. This type of post shows your lack of understanding of scripture...and in the power of God as well.
As I said before, Samson did not have the power to bring down the pillars. It was only because God gave it to him that he was able to accomplish what he did....meaning it was God's will for Samson to do what he did. Also, suicide in the meaning of this thread as most here agree is SELFISHNESS. Samson did NOT have an ounce of selfishness in him when he died. His mindset was on accomplishing God's will, and nothing else.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'm equally appalled at people willing to consign another to eternal separation from God without a clue to how insidious the condition that lead them to the moment that ended their life.
Its only judgmental if applied to an individual. I have not done this, and I have also agreed that there are exceptions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
One of the biggest soul winners, most sincere Christians, and a mentor of mine committed suicide a number of years ago. Cold-hearted people that place their eventual hope of heaven on their own self-righteous superiority probably looked down their noses at him and had no thoughts of comfort to his widow and family just as if he had lived his life as a pedophile who raped and killed little children or who robbed and kill little old ladies.
Wow...and you think I'm judgmental. Please reread what I just bolded in your quote.
You label people as cold hearted, and then then accuse them of looking down on them.
You have no idea whether people gave his wife comfort or not. Were you there 24/7 to inquire??
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
That type of attitude is a real-life example of the priest and the Levite who came across the robbed and beaten man along the road from Jerusalem to Jericho - in contrast to the good Samaritan who showed compassion.
If you can prove that no one helped your mentor's family...which as stated above, you can't. Again..you're making a general judgement on what you THINK happend.
As a Christian, I would be deeply moved to help a family that lost someone who took their own life...I would hope that ALL Christians would do the same..regardless of the 'why's' or 'how come's'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
It is beyond me to understand how a Christian could murder in premeditated cold blood, but again....I suppose there are exceptions..
That's the point exactly - you cannot understand it so you are will to assume the worst in every case based on your limited understanding.
I'm not judging any particular case. Please quote me if I am. I am only making general statements based on scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Please, for everyone's sake, never go to another wake/visitation/funeral. however, if you do, then please for everyone's sake don't say a word.
Its funny you say that. Truth is, I'm not sure I'd want to speak at too many funerals. If the person who died CLAIMED to NOT be a Christian, I would have absolutely nothing to say. How do you find words of comfort for Non Christians at a funeral? The fact is....you can't. As a Christian having the truth grounded in me, I could not say anything of comfort without lying. I know what happens to non believers when they die, and its not something that living unbelievers want to hear at the funeral of their unbelieving loved one.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
FWIW, when I was your age I believed exactly like you do on the matter.
When I was your age.....give me a break.
1 Timothy 4:12
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.
I may only be 34, but I'm grounded in the truth, and sometimes to a point that I knock 'older' Christians out of their comfort zone. Timothy did it, and Paul was glad for him.
I am trying to be sensitive and loving in this subject...Honestly I am, but too many people here are letting their feelings and experiences with suicide get in the way of what the bible has say on the subject.
I feel you are claiming to be older and more mature, but you're comments on the Samson story says otherwise. You really don't understand the scripture in this story, or the part God played either. I see a man doing God's will....you see a frightened young boy who wants a quick way out..BIG DIFFERENCE in the way we interpret this scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I sincerely hope that you do not have to witness up-close-&-personal the things that it took to soften my heart and change my mind on the matter. Even if you were right on the matter, and you're not, voicing it does nothing for anyone hearing it and may cause as much or more pain than the death of one's infant child to hear you express it.
If that matters to you...
So what you're saying is that truth in scripture should only be spoken if it doesn't hurt the feelings of the immediate audience? Am I close?
As I said to someone else here....your feelings or experience on a given subject does NOT trump scripture.
However, if you are talking about witnessing to unbelievers, or trying to encourage NEW Christians (help them grow), then sensitivety does play a part, but that doesn't mean sugar coating God's message.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/19/2008 5:35:11 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Robert_G offered:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We, howsumever, are usually quite willing to excuse our own personal pet... uhmm... choices.
You mean like in the other thread where you basically insisted that smoking wasn't a sin??? Just wondering.....
Okay, friend, I challenge you to show me where I ever implied that. If I did, I will retract it and apologize there and here. Otherwise, I'll take it as an unspported cheap shot.
In the other thread, I said addiction is idolatry. You said idolatry can't be chemically induced, and then went on with a sarcastic comment that I've noticed you use on more then one person in this forum.
I want to stay on topic, but to respond to this, I will say that regardless of whether it is chemically induced or whatever....addiction is addiction, and addiction to anything is idolatry.
You may have picked up that bad theology from some self-educated preacher with little clue about scripture, but IDOLATRY IS NOT CHEMICALLY INDUCED. A person consciously chooses his idols. My MIL became addicted to morphine during her last 2 weeks while fighting her battle with breast cancer. Jesus was still her only Lord and Master when she finally died.
Your statement is false.
My statement is true and you still have failed to show where I stated that smoking isn't a sin. You've only shown your misunderstanding about the OT Law and a cold-hearted tendency to condemn those without your particular vice.
quote:
...on more then one person...
That should be, "...on more THAN one person..."
The rest of your post isn't worth addressing.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/19/2008 8:15:27 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
FWIW, when I was your age I believed exactly like you do on the matter.
When I was your age.....give me a break.
1 Timothy 4:12
Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.
I may only be 34, but I'm...
Opinionated...
Sorry, too hard to pass that by - or the following observation.
I can see at least 3 ways that you differ from Timothy.
1) From a friend who is a biblical scholar, not just a talker, Timothy was probably 6 years older than you, more like 40.
2) He was STILL teachable.
3) He wasn't given to rebuking an elder.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/19/2008 10:36:13 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 197
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
My MIL became addicted to morphine during her last 2 weeks while fighting her battle with breast cancer. Jesus was still her only Lord and Master when she finally died.
And why would I imply otherwise? If Jesus was her Lord and Master, I'm pretty sure it is safe to say that she hated her addiction. Its one thing to be addicted in a tough situation, be your MIL probably knew the addiction was not a good thing and wished to be free of it...which is completely different then someone addicted to nicotine or alcohol, but yet has NO problem with being addicted.
There is a difference.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
My statement is true and you still have failed to show where I stated that smoking isn't a sin. You've only shown your misunderstanding about the OT Law and a cold-hearted tendency to condemn those without your particular vice.
Please point out where I condemned a person here. As I pointed out in your last post, you were the one labeling, and accusing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
My statement is true and you still have failed to show where I stated that smoking isn't a sin. You've only shown your misunderstanding about the OT Law and a cold-hearted tendency to condemn those without your particular vice.
Well, then do me a favour and simply answer the question.
Is being addicted to nicotine idolatry or not? Yes or No.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The rest of your post isn't worth addressing.
I didn't expect you to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Sorry, too hard to pass that by - or the following observation.
I can see at least 3 ways that you differ from Timothy.
1) From a friend who is a biblical scholar, not just a talker, Timothy was probably 6 years older than you, more like 40.
Please provide a credible source that says he was 40
And even if he was 40 (which many theologians believe he was much younger), its irrelevent to this discussion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
2) He was STILL teachable.
And I get accused of judging?? What gives you the right to say I'm not teachable?
I am still very teachable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
3) He wasn't given to rebuking an elder.
Please find me some scripture that forbids rebuking an elder.
Pauls letter to Timothy only says to not rebuke an Elder harshly.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/20/2008 7:27:06 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
My MIL became addicted to morphine during her last 2 weeks while fighting her battle with breast cancer. Jesus was still her only Lord and Master when she finally died.
And why would I imply otherwise?
Well, sir, I don't know just as I cannot fathom your assertions about those you haven't taken time to understand. But you did imply otherwise by your broad condemnation of addiction as idolotry, and thus my rejection of your blanket statement. Plus, you know nothing about my friend and my relationship with his family, yet you seemed compelled to offer bluster and hubris against him and me and them.
I also reject your notion that you have attained the place where Timothy was when Paul said what he did about his youth.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/20/2008 9:52:18 AM
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Robert_G
Posts: 197
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I also reject your notion that you have attained the place where Timothy was when Paul said what he did about his youth.
You put words in my mouth.
I never once said or even implied I was on the same level as Timothy. I was only using Timothy as an example that you shouldn't look down on me because I'm younger then you.
I would never compare myself to a first century Apostle. That would be foolish.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/20/2008 10:05:31 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 2719
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I also reject your notion that you have attained the place where Timothy was when Paul said what he did about his youth.
You put words in my mouth.
I never once said or even implied I was on the same level as Timothy. I was only using Timothy as an example that you shouldn't look down on me because I'm younger then you.
I would never compare myself to a first century Apostle. That would be foolish.
Sorry, I guess my reading and comprehension must have vanished with my ability to hold a thought and keep from drooling.
quote:
I may only be 34, but I'm grounded in the truth, and sometimes to a point that I knock 'older' Christians out of their comfort zone. Timothy did it, and Paul was glad for him.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/20/2008 12:19:04 PM
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delete123
Posts: 540
Status: offline
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Jesus asked the pharisees,sadducees, and scribes which sin was greater murder or a lie?
His answer: They are equal sin is sin.
Jesus came to save the sinner and died and covers a multitude of sin. The *only sin* not covered is Blasmephy of the Holy Spirit.
Only He knows the condition of one's hearts and no one here has the right to sit on the throne stating their *opinion* or *false* teachings of what God knows.
belief on Him and what He did on the cross to save you.
He will not allow one to slip through his hands. He will never leave or forsake you.
Salvation is secured
There is a mulitiude of sins that we are daily forgiven for and anyone seeking to refute my claims. Please call on my Wise Counselor. He really likes the knee-mail
CRH
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 6:17:23 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 22
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
quote:
ORIGINAL: TJStarfire
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Still, no one takes my challenge to prove that you can lose your salvation. That's the central issue here. For this topic to even be valid, one would have to prove you could lose your salvation first. Once you prove that, then you can ask if suicide is forgiven. But no one has prove biblically yet that a person can lose their salvation. Please, someone, prove that you can lose salvation first. Once you can do that (which you cannot biblically), then you can debate whether suicide is forgiven or not. And, by the way, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Not suicide. This thread really needs to address the central issue first before it continues aimlessly...
Will you accept the word of Jesus?
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not every claim to salvation is true.
I fully accept and believe what you just said. That has nothing to do with what I'm expressing here, though. The discussion is: Can a saved person lose their salvation BY committing suicide.
Therefore, we must first examine, CAN a saved person even lose their salvation at all? If they cannot, then we have the answer to our debate here. But, if we can lose salvation (which I do not believe to be true at all), then we have a discussion here that could go on for a while. I think you can prove that no one can lose salvation, and therefore, I think that ends this debate. That's why I'm so intent on getting the conversation to: Can a REAL born again Christian (not a fake Christian who's not really saved) lose their salvation?
That is the question that MUST be addressed first, or the conversation has no purpose. You must always prove/figure out the underlying principles before you discuss the things which concern those underlying principles. So, I agree that there are lots of Christians who simply think they're saved, but really aren't, and those are the ones that will cry Lord, Lord and Jesus will say He never knew them. But I am speaking of the true born again Christians, not the fakes. Assuming one is a true born again Christian, and they commit suicide, will they lose their salvation? I don't believe anything can cause you to lose your salvation, so I would of course answer "no." But I have to prove that first. That's why I'm trying to get someone to attempt to prove loss of salvation. When they attempt to do so, I want to show that the verses to which they are referring are not understood the way they're thinking they should be understood, and sometimes they mean quite the opposite. I hope I am not being misunderstood in my goal here.
However, it appears an admin cut off the possibility of us even discussing once saved always saved, and therefore, this conversation could go anywhere, and will become fruitless unless the foundation is first established. Maybe I should have just assumed the founder of this thread assumed you could lose your salvation, but that being the case, I couldn't have even started discussing anything in this thread, because it goes back to OSAS in order to answer this thread's topic of discussion. I'll stop trying to address OSAS here at the admin's request, but simply know that the conversation is hindered because of this, because if OSAS is shown to be true conclusively, which I believe I've shown, then this discussion ends very quickly with a "no, you don't go to hell if you're saved."
Hello there Cephyr13,
I don't know why the Admin won't allow debates on OSAS, but I guess someone will tell me. Having said that and it being really late (or early as the case may well be-4am for me), allow me to state that I do NOT believe in OSAS, and will at a later moment, provide you with a number of citations and rational explanatory for my rejection of OSAS.
Pertaining to the topic at hand, Suicide, allow me to posit this explanation as I have not yet seen it offered:
We are commanded to ask forgiveness of our sins, post salvation event, and God promised to be faithful and forgive us when we repent our sins. Murder can be forgiven if we repent of the sin, as can any other sin, except of course as has been mentioned, Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which no one to my knowledge has ever clearly defined).
Suicide is 'self-murder'. The German word for it is in fact, Selbstmord "Self Murder", very explicative and the reason why I mention it.
Rationally and scripturally, we MUST, logically, be ALIVE in order to ask for forgiveness of the sin of murdering ourselves. However, since the person who committed the murder is no longer alive, the sin is still INTACT upon that person's soul, and has not been forgiven.
God promised that unrepented sin would preclude a person from entering Heaven, and in fact would send that person to Hell.
Do you follow the logic? A person who has murdered themselves is no longer alive and therefore cannot ask repent of their sin and ask for forgiveness.
Were we as followers of Christ and Members of the Body of Christ, NOT required to ask forgiveness of our sins as Christians, then the Lord's Prayer would make zero sense ('..forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..'). We are also told time and again, that God is 'faithful to forgive us.' This reminder of God's faithfulness towards us was written to Believers, persons already saved (Salvation Event/Choice), so the argument that we do not need to repent of our sins post salvation, or that our unrepented sins no longer have a direct spiritual impact on our souls, makes no logical, contextual, doctrinal, or scriptural sense.
OSAS is predicated upon a seriously flawed line of reasoning. Judas was 'one of the twelve', he enacted miracles, preached the gospel, directed the Power of God, and was accepted both by his peers and by Christ. Do you or anyone else seriously believe that Judas is anywhere but in Hell suffering all the torments of that horrible place?
I'm too tired to get further in depth at the moment, but will take up the issue again tonight, barring any unforeseen circumstances.
I look forward to reading your reply.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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