RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal?

RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/27/2008 9:43:13 PM)
quote: there is a phrase: "process of sanctification", it comes after justification, and it is not instantaneous. There is another phrase: "entire sanctification", which is a second work of grace wrought instantaneously which leads to the process of living the holy life in Christ-like obedience. Both concepts are Biblical and experiential, doer. quote: You wouldn't suggest the Holy Spirit is asleep in you...eh? You wouldn't suggest the Holy Spirit finds us totally alert and responsive in all situations...eh?

VCO -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/28/2008 4:13:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark Thank you, VCO, for your Scripturally sound reply. I'm sorry, but I still see no answer in your response to the fact that the Bible refers to ""unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," clearly showing that all sins are not equal, except that all sins condemn the unforgiven to Hell. Do you have an explanation or are these terms unimportant in Scripture because the only important point is to stay out of Hell? U&U I do not know why we are not connecting on this, other than it appears that you are focused on man's perspective of sin, and I am focused on God's perspective. Yes there are different kinds of sin, but from God's perspective one is EQUAL to breaking them all. God's purpose for pointing out individual sins, is NOT TO give us reason to think "at least we are better than someone else". It is to PROVE to us that NONE of us can keep His Laws perfectly, because to stumble at one point, makes us GUILTY of breaking ALL of God's LAWS. HE is trying to drive us to the point of realizing that NONE can measure up to HIS STANDARDS, and that we ALL desperately need a Savior. The only reason Blaspheming the Holy Spirit was NOT a sin Nailed to the Cross, is that it is literally rejecting what the Holy Spirit is trying to convince the Unsaved hearts of mankind, the fact that Christ the Lord did to pay for everyone's sins. A gift is free, that is true; BUT equally true is you have to receive the gift, OR you do not have it. If one refuses to receive Christ as Lord, which automatically places that free gift of "PAID IN FULL" in our sin debt account; THAT person does not then have that gift. It is NOT Unforgivable, because it is a greater sin than others, it is Unforgiveable because it is rejecting the ONLY way to Salvation. God loved us enough to give us our choice. Do we want Jesus to be LORD of our lives, or do we want to be lord of our own lives? We get our choice for Eternity, and if we choose to reject Jesus as Lord, are we NOT standing with the crowd in Jerusalem that day, CRYING OUT: "We will not have this man to rule over us, CRUCIFY Him!" ? So looking from our side toward God, yes some sins appear greater than others. But HE clearly said to stumble at one point, makes us Guilty of them all. So the one who commits the "greater sin" you asked about, is is EQUALLY guilty of all the little ones, and the one who commits a bad thought is EQUALLY guilty of all other sins, including the "greater sin". So at NO POINT can we be guilty of breaking only ONE of God's Laws. Yes I believe we are born in sin, and YES I believe that before knowledge of right from wrong, sin is "NOT IMPUTED". However, that very portion of Scripture clearly implies that sin is there from birth, it is just not counted against us until we know right from wrong, then we are accountable for it. Romans 5:12-21 (NASB) 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. As for your question about God's usage of the expression "more tolerable" in relation to the judgement in verses such as: Mark 6:11 and Luke 10:14; does that mean that there are places in Hell that are more tormenting than others, thus indicating unequal punishment? I am not sure, but for sure, I am not going there to find out. However, I think it is more likely that it will depend upon the Unsaved's perception and attitude. I think it is HIGHLY likely that the Self-righteous will be much more bitter and perceive that their torment in Hell is far worse, because they do not think they deserve their fate; than the ones who are standing right beside the Self-righteous that realize that they are getting they deserve. For example, on more than one occasion I have talked to inmates with identical Life Sentences, for committing the same type of crimes. Because of a difference in their attitudes and perception, one will say, "I don't deserve this, I should have received a lighter sentence!", AND the other will say, "I am getting what I deserve, in fact I should have been executed." Matt 13:49-50 (NKJV) 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Luke 16:22-24 (NASB) 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw* Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' See the difference in attitude and perception? The Self-righteous who have no "heart-knowledge" of Jesus as Lord, such as those who will be crying out "Lord, lord we have done many great things in your name," will be wailing and bitterly GNASHING their teeth in Hell, while the rich man seems to realize that he deserves his fate. So even if the punishment is EQUAL, there can be a totally different perception of it between individuals.

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/28/2008 9:33:51 AM)
VCO, you have again glossed over the question with your party line. What exactly do you think "greater sin" means? I do not know how to word this so you will comment on these scriptural phrases instead of batting them away in favor of the verses you keep quoting over and over. The one I list here is a quote from Jesus Himself. I would call that "God's perspective." He was also the one who uttered the phrase "unforgivable sin" and differentiated it from other sins.

Little_1 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/28/2008 3:29:14 PM)
Sin is anything which separates us from God. The Word of God teaches that there is only one sin which God will not forgive and that is the sin of blastphemy against the Holy Spirit which means to continually deny the Holy Spirit's prompting to accept the Lord Jesus' sacrificial bloodshed on our behalf as our only means of salvation from sin. The Holy Spirit will not always strive with man and there comes a point when He withdraws - that point in a person's life is when continual rejection has reached the point of blastphemy. Nobody can know when this will happen - it just can and it is when God deems enough is enough.

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/28/2008 3:39:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW VCO, you have again glossed over the question with your party line. What exactly do you think "greater sin" means? I do not know how to word this so you will comment on these scriptural phrases instead of batting them away in favor of the verses you keep quoting over and over. The one I list here is a quote from Jesus Himself. I would call that "God's perspective." He was also the one who uttered the phrase "unforgivable sin" and differentiated it from other sins. U&U NOW, read it in context: John 19:5-15 (NKJV) 5 Then Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. And Pilate said to them, "Behold the Man!" 6 Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him." 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." 8 Therefore, when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid, 9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." 12 From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus out and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" 15 But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!" Okay, I assume you are talking about verse 11 above. WHAT IS "THE GREATER SIN" being compared to? It is NOT being compared to other sins! It is being compared to "THE TRUTH" that Jesus is the Son of God! If Jesus was not the Son of God, then those that had delivered Jesus to Pilate would have been correct in saying that they had caught him in a sin that required the death penalty. BUT SINCE JESUS TRULY IS THE SON OF GOD, and therefore committed NO SIN; it is plain to see that delievering Jesus to Pilate to be executed for a false charge is OBVIOUSLY "the greater sin", than the Truth which was ONLY erroneously perceived to be a lie or sin. So once again, even in this portion of Scripture we see the difference between man's false perception of sin, and GOD's true perception. Let me give you an Example that might help clarify the use of "the greater sin" here: If you locked yourself out your car, and someone saw you using a coat hanger to open that car; that witness would probably then use his cell phone to report a car theft in progress. The witness in his mind would be reporting a violation of the Law or sin. When the police arrive, they find you in the car with the coat hanger still in your hand, and you claiming it is my car but I forgot my wallet at home. And try as you might, you cannot find the registration in the glove box; you therefore would in all probabily be arrested and taken before a Judge, where you would have to prove ownership of the car. ALL THE TIME THE WITNESS would be insisting, "I saw him stealing the car!" Now who committed "the greater sin"? You for using a coat hanger to get into your locked car, OR the one who falsely accused you of trying to steal it?

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/1/2008 7:04:51 AM)
Wow. I have no clue how to get you to look at what I am saying. Your bias is so strong it totally blinds you to the obvious plain text of scripture. He was saying that Judas' and the High Priest's sins of betraying and arresting Jesus were greater than Pilate's sin of condemning an innocent man to death. In the OT, there were sins (inadvertant, unknowing, falling short), transgressions (willfully disobeying) and iniquities (transgenerational effects and predispositions of sins and transgressions). Some activities God described as abominations (very detestable), others he does not. It is clear thruougt scripture that God lists differing values of "badness" to different sins. I did not make that up. I wish I could make you see that.

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/4/2008 8:56:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW . . . It is clear thruougt scripture that God lists differing values of "badness" to different sins. I did not make that up. I wish I could make you see that. quote: "Dr. John MacArthur, Jr." [Commenting on Rom. 1:18] http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/45-9.htm . . . To help the Christian reader to understand the significance and the meaning of the fullness of the gospel of Christ. And it all begins in verse 18 with this statement: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” The gospel message begins with a statement about the wrath of God. Frankly that’s diametrically opposed to most of our evangelistic technique. Most of our contemporary evangelism purposely avoids that theme. We talk about love and we talk about happiness and we talk about abundant living and we talk about forgiveness and we talk about joy, we talk about peace. And we offer people all of those things and ask them if they wouldn’t like to have all of those things. But we really very rarely talk about judgment. And I wonder in all of the times that you have presented the gospel to somebody, how many times did you introduce it by saying ‑ By the way, did you know that the wrath of God is revealed against your ungodliness? I suppose Dale Carnegie; he has even affected our gospel presentation. We are in such a hurry to win friends and influence people that sometimes we bypass the starting point. From Paul’s perspective, fear becomes the first pressure applied to evil men. Let them know about the wrath of God. In fact, the word love, you might want to know, doesn’t appear in the Roman epistle until the fifth chapter. Now admittedly the wrath of God is a hard subject and I am not here to tell you that it’s an easy one. I find it myself very difficult to begin in speaking to people about Christ at this point. And yet it is the beginning of the gospel and the proper preparation for the announcement of grace. How can people understand anything about love if they don’t understand God’s hate? How can they understand anything about His grace if they don’t know about His law? How can they understand forgiveness if they don’t understand the penalty of sin. Men cannot understand. They cannot seek grace and salvation unless they are affected with the dread of the wrath of God that is upon them. Unless men sense they are in grave danger there’s no pressure applied to them to change. Now, sometimes when you talk about God being a God of wrath, certain people get disturbed. And they don’t understand how God can be a God of anger and God can be a God of wrath and God can be a God of fury, a God of terror. But that’s because they don’t understand God. Let’s see if we can’t help ourselves to a deeper understanding of His wrath in perspective with all of His other attributes. God’s attributes are balanced in His divine perfection. And they are perfectly balanced. If God did not have wrath and God did not have anger then He would not be God. God is perfect in love, on the one hand, and He is equally perfect in hate, on the other hand. Just as totally as He loves, so totally does He hate. As His love is unmixed, so is His hate unmixed. Of Christ, it says in Hebrews 1:9, “Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.” And there is that perfect balance in the nature of God. As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God. We’re so saccharine. We’re so sentimental. We’re so kind of mushy in our Christianity. When is the last time you heard a new song on the wrath of God? Heard one lately? I haven’t. Just to prove a point in my own mind I have an old Psalter, an old hymnal from the end of the nineteenth century and I pulled it off the shelf and started to go through the hymnal and I found hymn after hymn after hymn on the wrath of God, on the anger of God, on the vengeance of God, on the judgment of God. Hymns that sounded very much like the imprecatory Psalms, where the psalmist is asking God to come down and condemn His enemies. People don’t write hymns like that anymore. People don’t extol the wrath of God. We don’t want to talk about that in our Madison Avenue approach to presenting the message. But we will never understand at all the profound reality of God’s love until we comprehend His hate. That’s why you never even hear the word love until, the fifth chapter. There has to be a‑very clear delineation of what it is that God hates. And may I add that it is not to say that God doesn’t love, but it is to say that you’ll never understand how great His love is unless you know how great His hate is. I mean, if you understand that God hates sin so profoundly then you will find it all the more amazing that He can love sinners. So that without an understanding of His hate, His love is crippled too in our thinking. Love and grace are favorite terms, are void of meaning if God does not hate. . . . Nor have I made up the fact that "sin is sin", PERIOD, and the fact that God hates ALL INIQUITY. Each individual sin PUT CHRIST ON THE CROSS. Jesus Himself even, taught that the thought was the same as the deed. Numerous mainline Churches taught it that way for Centuries, and some still do. Only since the latter half of the 1900's has the Gospel been watered down, into an "easy-believism, God is ONLY Love, and how dare you remind me that God hates my sin", Laodicean dominated Church Age. http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/t/itwrahod.htm http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/i/d/lidtdwra.htm

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/5/2008 6:56:51 AM)
"Numerous mainline churches" have taught replacement theology,racisim, and other errors for centuries. However I seriously question this was one of them. The RCC has recognized the difference between venial and mortal sin for over a millenium. The original mainline protestant churches also recongnized this. Are you saying that I do not believe that God hates sin? OR that I am watering down the gospel? Neither could be further from the truth. I understand how much God hates sin. I also understand that He hates people doing damage to the text of scripture. By ignoring or explaining away the passages I have brought up you are doing just that. Let me make this simple: There is sin - the base Hebrew and Greek words were archery terms that meant to miss the target. We sin everytime we strive to do right but miss it in any way shape or form. Paul tells us all have sinned and fall short of HIS glory. There is transgression - this is willful disobedience. It is more than trying to do right and failing; it is knowing what God wants and doing something else instead. Everywhere in scripture this is considered more serious than just sin. Some are called "abominations" which are considered even more detestable than regular transgressions. Then there is iniquity - this is transgenerational effects of our parents' and grandparents' sins and transgressions.

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/5/2008 11:57:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW The RCC has recognized the difference between venial and mortal sin for over a millenium. The original mainline protestant churches also recongnized this. U&U quote: "The Gospel in Leviticus" A Series of Lectures on the Hebrew Ritual by Joseph A. Seiss, D.D, LL.D., Philadelphia Lutheran Seminary (approx. 1892) Fifth Lecture. The Sin and Trespass-Offerings—Gospel in Leviticus, The . . . There is a school of moralists, who make a difference between sins. They tell us that while some are mortal, and carry after them the certain judgment of God, others are only venial—mere imperfections, to which no serious guilt attaches. But, I find no such distinctions in the word of God. Sin is sin; and guilt is a part of its essential nature wherever found. True, in their effects upon the perpetrator, or in their influences upon society, some are worse than others; but in their relations to God and his holy law, they are always the same, always evil, abhorrent, and damning. Men may talk of "little sins;" but God never does. . . . —Gospel in Leviticus, The quote: . . . If you want to get along with God, you will have to agree with Him about sin. Sin is sin and it must be confessed. It does not matter who you are, either. . . . . . God doesn't watch the actions of some people and disregard others. I have never understood why some Christians think they can get by with certain things that other people do not get by with. Sin is sin. . .—J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible quote: . . . It means that to disobey God is like breaking the marriage vow. It means that all sin is sin against love. It means that our relationship to God is not like the distant relationship of king and subject or master and slave, but like the intimate relationship of husband and wife. It means that when we sin we break God's heart, as the heart of one partner in a marriage may be broken by the desertion of the other. . . —Barclay's Daily Study Bible (NT) quote: Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. 1 Cor. 3:1-9 . . . So a Christian is not characterized by sin; it no longer represents his basic nature. But he is still able to sin, and his sin is just as sinful as the sin of an unbeliever. Sin is sin. . . —MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The quote: . . . But to God, sin is sin, whether you do it to be mean or to have fun. . . —Thompson Kids Treasure Chest quote: Iniquity Usage Number: 1 Strong's Number: <G458> Original Word: ἀíïìίá, anomia Usage Notes: lit., "lawlessness" (a, negative, nomos, "law"), is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness. Its usual rendering in the NT is "iniquity," which lit. means unrighteousness.—Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words quote: INIQUITY See Sin. —Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary quote: INIQUITY » See: SIN —New Century Version Dictionary Hebrews 1:8-9 (KJV) 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

makarizo -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/6/2008 6:59:09 AM)
Luk 20:47 ".......These will receive greater condemnation." Luk 12:47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, Luk 12:48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. willful sinning is "greater" that sinning in ignorance

deliveredarling -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/6/2008 7:16:23 AM)
I do not know if this has been said. I was just reading in Hebrews and it appears that the "sin leading to death" is apostasy. Would this then not indicated a difference in the penalties for sin?

Focusing -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/6/2008 7:44:03 AM)
quote: "easy-believism, God is ONLY Love, and how dare you remind me that God hates my sin" just a quick note ... I haven't been to a church like this

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/6/2008 8:04:35 AM)
VCO - let me ask you this question another way. God tells you to do X in a certain way. It is a difficult thing and you try really hard and get 95% of it done. The fact that you did not get 100% means you fell short, which is the biblical definition of sin. You are saying from God's perspective that is exactly the same thing as cursing God and saying you won't do X at all? If that is so, what is the incentive to even try to walk in obedience?

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/7/2008 12:25:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW You are saying from God's perspective that is exactly the same thing as cursing God and saying you won't do X at all? If that is so, what is the incentive to even try to walk in obedience? U&U I did not say it, GOD did! James 2:10 (NIV) 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Now the way you worded that makes it sound like you think that keeping most of God's commands, earns your Salvation. NO WAY! None of us get to heaven because of what we have done, or did not do. We all deserve eternity in Hell. We serve Him because we LOVE Him, because HE LOVED us enough to pay for all of our sins on the cross, AND we are ALL guilty of breaking all of HIS commands. It truly is an inner personal LOVE RELATIONSHIP, between me and my LORD. That is why I strive to obey HIM.

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/7/2008 3:06:35 AM)
U&U Okay DaveW, what do you do with this verse: Galatians 3:10 (NKJV) 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Now I will be the first to say, "THANK GOD WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW, BUT RATHER WE ARE UNDER GRACE!" Because the above verse makes it clear that every infraction of the Law makes us Cursed in God's sight. Now that accurately describes the equality of SIN in God's sight. That is WHY we NEED a Savior! That is WHY we NEED His Grace! That is WHY we NEED His Mercy! I think you will find more Churches still teaching "Sin is equally bad in God's Sight", than you think. Granted in this Laodicean Age, fewer and fewer cling to Sound Doctrine, but we are still here. But maybe not for long. "Soon And Very Soon!" SOON AND VERY SOON! - link Romans 6:15 (ISV) 15 What, then, does this mean? Should we go on sinning because we are not under Law but under grace? Of course not! http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2977

McFatty -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/7/2008 5:49:34 AM)
The wages of sin is death, regardless of which sin or how you name it. You don't get ten years for one sin and the electric chair for another.

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/7/2008 9:14:13 AM)
So VCO you are saying that since it is impossible for anyone to ever be free from sin, that means God looks at the person who tries really hard to please HIM but misses by just the slightest flaw the same as unrepentant serial axe murderers? Yes or no?

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/7/2008 3:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW So VCO you are saying that since it is impossible for anyone to ever be free from sin, that means God looks at the person who tries really hard to please HIM but misses by just the slightest flaw the same as unrepentant serial axe murderers? Yes or no? U&U ABSOLUTELY, YES! Both are guilty of breaking ALL OF GOD's LAWS. Keeping His Commandments does NOT earn one ounce of forgiveness, PERIOD. All the good works you can do in a LIFETIME will NOT pay the price for a single sin. AND if you think they do, God says that pile you call good works looks and smells like a pile of FILTHY rags to Him. Isaiah 64:6 (NIV) 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. HOW MANY OF US? NONE of us are less sinful than another, because one sin makes us equally guilty of "breaking ALL of God's Laws", just like those we consider the WORST of sinners. That fact should drive us to our knees crying out: Romans 7:24 (KJV) 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? AMAZING GRACE - link Amazing grace! How sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see. When you understand just how sinful we REALLY are, that song will bring tears flowing down your cheeks every time you sing it. For God's Wrath towards our sin is the same as His Wrath towards the unbeliever's sin; EXCEPT Christ is there saying, "Father, I paid the penaltly for that sin on the Cross." What MOTIVATES us to serve HIM then? Understanding HOW GREAT HIS LOVE IS, and HOW MUCH HE SAVED ME FROM, and HOW HE TOOK MY PLACE ON THE CROSS! Therefore we want to LOVE Him back! John 14:15 (NASB) 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ANY OBEDIANCE NOT MOTIVATED BY LOVE FOR OUR PERSONAL LORD, JESUS CHRIST; is part of that pile of FILTHY RAGS. Are there different consequences for sin in this life, ABSOLUTELY! Galatians 6:7 (NASB) 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. And government is responsible to set up a fair justice system that makes the punishment fit the crime, here on Earth. Romans 13:1-5 (NKJV) 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/8/2008 7:01:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VCO quote: So VCO you are saying that since it is impossible for anyone to ever be free from sin, that means God looks at the person who tries really hard to please HIM but misses by just the slightest flaw the same as unrepentant serial axe murderers? ABSOLUTELY, YES! Both are guilty of breaking ALL OF GOD's LAWS. So you are saying heart intent counts for nothing. It does not matter that the one person hates the very concept of a god while the other wants to submit to God in every way?

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/8/2008 3:41:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW . . . So you are saying heart intent counts for nothing. It does not matter that the one person hates the very concept of a god while the other wants to submit to God in every way? U&U Now I did not say that, DID I ? You may wish that is what I said, but you are sadly mistaken. quote: VCO What MOTIVATES us to serve HIM then? Understanding HOW GREAT HIS LOVE IS, and HOW MUCH HE SAVED ME FROM, and HOW HE TOOK MY PLACE ON THE CROSS! Therefore we want to LOVE Him back! John 14:15 (NASB) 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ANY OBEDIANCE NOT MOTIVATED BY LOVE FOR OUR PERSONAL LORD, JESUS CHRIST; is part of that pile of FILTHY RAGS. But EVEN doing the right thing for the right reason (Love for Christ) DOES NOT make up for a SINGLE SIN. ONLY a Holy Blood sacrafice can clense us from that sin, JUST LIKE ONLY a Holy Blood sacrafice can clense an "Axe Murderer" from that sin. BECAUSE any sin makes us "Guilty of breaking ALL of God's Laws", James 2:10. GOOD DEEDS NEVER MAKE UP FOR A SINGLE BAD DEED OR A SINGLE OMISSION TO DO GOOD! ONLY the Blood of CHRIST, coupled with the GIFT OF GOD, "Saving Faith", can save us from Hellfire. Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Now can a "Axe Murderer" be forgiven, ABSOLUTELY! If He received Christ as LORD, thereby receiving HIS GRACE, which includes Christ's blood as payment for our sins. IF HE DOES NOT REPENT AND RECEIVE CHRIST AS HIS PERSONAL LORD, he will truly experience hell fire. BUT REMEMBER, his eternal punishment would still be hell fire, even if his ONLY sin was calling his brother a "FOOL". Matthew 5:22 (KJV) 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Now you seem desperate to find the true value of walking in obedience, but appear to be erroneously trying to apply it to our sin debt. Let me tell you, "YES, there is great value in walking in obediance to Christ", but this has NOTHING to do with our sin debt, because: ONLY the SHED BLOOD of Christ is an equal payment for each and every sin which ALL deserve the payment of Eternity in Hell. To understand the value of Obedience to Christ, you first need a history lesson in the Olympic style of Games, that were popular at the time of Christ. Much as today, they were conducted in a stadium or arena. The seats in the front row/center were "reserved" for the Kings of the various kingdoms represented at the Games. The atheletes trained vigorously for months and frequently for YEARS, just for the joy and privelege of representing their King. And when their race came, and all their preparation paid off, and they crossed the finish line first, they were NOT given a gold medallion. Instead, they were crowned with a "Laurel Wreath". The winning athlete would then step down from the winning podium, walk over to his King seated in the front row. He would bow, remove his Laurel Wreath Crown and cast it at his King's feet, stating, "I won this for you, my KING!" We are going to get to cast our crowns at Christ's feet, for He is our KING! How embarassing would it be to have to say, "I'm sorry my KING, I did not try hard enough to win a crown.", or "I'm sorry I let someone steal my crown." 1 Corinthians 9:24 (NKJV) 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 Timothy 4:7-8 (NKJV) 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NKJV) 19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? James 1:12 (NKJV) 12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 20 For you are our glory and joy. Revelation 22:12 (NKJV) 12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

CCCdnt -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/12/2008 2:16:20 PM)
I have not read every reply...just the last several or so, but I wanted to respond. I think that the Bible teaches that all sin is equal in the sense that if a person dies without Christ, he will spend eternity in the lake of fire. However, I think that the case can be made that the Bible teaches that for unbelievers, in the context of the lake of fire, sin is not equal, and that there will be different degrees of punishment in the lake of fire based on the sin. As I understand it, there are those that believe that the Bible teaches that some sins if committed by a Christian and not repented of can cause the person to no longer be saved. These are sins from the Biblical references that say that all liars, murderers, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God (not trying to quote word for word here). This, of course, is from those that believe the Bible teaches that salvation is conditional (as oposed to "once saved always saved")

lazareth -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/12/2008 2:33:22 PM)
All sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord, however, the is the unpardonable sin. (1 John 5:16-17)

drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/12/2008 2:40:52 PM)
So if the unpardonable sin is different from other sins, how are all sins equal in the eyes of the Lord?

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/12/2008 9:16:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CCCdnt As I understand it, there are those that believe that the Bible teaches that some sins if committed by a Christian and not repented of can cause the person to no longer be saved. These are sins from the Biblical references that say that all liars, murderers, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God . . . U&U Yes I know that there are those that teach that a believer can lose his salvation, BUT that certainly is not my understanding. Scripture certainly states that OUR Salvation rests NOT in our hands BUT RATHER in the hands of our LORD and GOD, Jesus Christ. PRAISE THE LORD! Because I would fumble that Salvation football for sure! John 10:27-30 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." "NO ONE", certainly includes "ME". So it is Christ who is holding on to our Salvation. John 17:11 (KJV) 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:20 (KJV) 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; I think Rev. 21:8 is the verse that you were referring to: Revelation 21:8 (NKJV) 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." I think if you ask a Greek student, you will find out that the tense of the sins described that verse, imply a continuous action. IN OTHER WORDS, an unrepentant lifestyle of doing those things. INTERESTINGLY, Scripture defines the major kind of "liars" it is talking about in the verse above, and it is those who have lied about "KNOWING" Jesus as Lord, ("know" is a reference to that inter-personal love relationship, between servant and LORD). Sure they think they are Christians and are crying out, "Lord, Lord, we done many great things in your name." But Jesus says to those that had entered the Broad Gate instead of the Narrow Gate, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." (Mat. 7:13-23) 1 John 2:3-6 (NKJV) 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. For a Christian to become unrepentant, is foreign to a genuine Christian's spiritual Nature of the New Man that was brought to life in him by the Holy Spirit. One who appears to have become unrepentant, DID NOT lose his Salvation, he only proved that he never had it in the first place. Therefore, I do not see a difference in sins as you are trying to describe it. As Dr. John MacArthur describes it, "A genuine Christian is not sinless, but as he matures spiritually, he will sin less and less." Since it is part of our spiritual Nature to strive to obey His commandments, it is equally part of our spiritual Nature to Repent of sin, every time we recognize it in ourselves. John 14:15 (NASB) 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:23-24 (NASB) 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. 1 John 1:8-10 (NASB) 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins , He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (5/12/2008 9:28:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark So if the unpardonable sin is different from other sins, how are all sins equal in the eyes of the Lord? U&U ALL SINS, INCLUDING THE UNPARDONABLE SIN (rejecting what the Holy Spirit is trying to place in your heart about Jesus, including His substitutionary death for all of our sins), DESERVE ETERNITY IN HELL, THEREFORE THEY ARE EQUAL. The unpardonable sin simply cannot be nailed to the Cross, because it is a willful rejection of Christ's payment for sin. They get their choice to be apart from Christ for Eternity. One who repents and receives Christ as Lord, can never commit that sin. ALL who reject Christ, have committed that unpardonable sin.

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