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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/18/2008 2:36:02 PM
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HisCovenant
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That's beautiful, Doink!
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/19/2008 9:51:28 AM
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tafkam
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Personally I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing. I make no bones of the fact that music means a great deal to me as far as worship goes, and there are moments when a song will move me to worship far more than a sermon will.
As for the whole "booty shaking = bad" argument, I've been ministering through music in churches for 20 years and I have yet to see this.
God created music, and Scripture tells us that everything was created for His glory.
So as the Gaithers said, "throw back your head and sing"...come let us worship the Lord God almighty.....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/19/2008 9:29:23 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Personally I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing. I make no bones of the fact that music means a great deal to me as far as worship goes, and there are moments when a song will move me to worship far more than a sermon will.
As for the whole "booty shaking = bad" argument, I've been ministering through music in churches for 20 years and I have yet to see this.
God created music, and Scripture tells us that everything was created for His glory.
So as the Gaithers said, "throw back your head and sing"...come let us worship the Lord God almighty.....
You know, I agree. Music is VERY important to us and should be. God created us to worship and there will be lots of music for eternity in heaven. We were created to feel the beat and to spiritually tune in to sound. God made everything in the universe have sound. It's now proven scientifically that the smallest particle that everything is made of is a sound particle. Not the atom as was once thought. Which means everything is constantly making sound and I believe worshipping God.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/20/2008 1:44:04 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Personally I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing. I make no bones of the fact that music means a great deal to me as far as worship goes, and there are moments when a song will move me to worship far more than a sermon will.
As for the whole "booty shaking = bad" argument, I've been ministering through music in churches for 20 years and I have yet to see this.
God created music, and Scripture tells us that everything was created for His glory.
So as the Gaithers said, "throw back your head and sing"...come let us worship the Lord God almighty.....
I've been in church all my life,63yrs,and in the past 5yrs this is what we have been seeing.This is why we are looking for another church.We have found one that does one contemporary song,but it's very mild.Ya hear more amen's than anything.It's a Nazarene Church.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/20/2008 6:35:53 PM
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tafkam
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Yustme,
I thought you weren't going to respond to me anymore, but since you posted....
I have yet to see anyone's booty shaking in a church setting. My guess is that many of our more traditional brothers and sisters have witnessed someone clapping their hands or moving in some fashion to the beat of the music and concluded that it was "booty shaking".
I guess that would mean black gospel choirs have been getting it wrong for decades.
Maybe someone can show me Scripture that condemns moving one's body to a musical rhythm. Of course I've asked this before, so far, no takers....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 12:06:07 AM
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ladyingrace1979
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That says what I want to say better than I could.
This whole argument over style is just plain childish. My pastor said it best. He said "In God's song book, the Psalms, there is no musical notation. So focus on the words and what they say to and about our God." I think he was right on.
As far as "booty shaking" if David could dance before the ark of the covenent and God didn't condemn him then I don't see a problem. It's not my cup of tea, but I will not trample on a brother or sister's liberty and tell them they can't worship God through whatever means He leads them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Personally I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing. I make no bones of the fact that music means a great deal to me as far as worship goes, and there are moments when a song will move me to worship far more than a sermon will.
As for the whole "booty shaking = bad" argument, I've been ministering through music in churches for 20 years and I have yet to see this.
God created music, and Scripture tells us that everything was created for His glory.
So as the Gaithers said, "throw back your head and sing"...come let us worship the Lord God almighty.....
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 7:23:06 AM
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bzirk
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If the effort put into the argument about style was focused elsewhere, there is no telling what could be accomplished.
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Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 7:32:58 AM
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McKate
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Do we put too much emphasis on music? I don't think so...actually, I don't think we put ENOUGH emphasis on the power that it has to bring people together and move them. Music is pure, unweighed emotional/soulful communication.
You know, there are plenty of people who sing traditional, boring Latin hymns every Sunday morning and have no idea what they're even singing about. I'd rather people understand the message and be able to sing and dance to it with passion...and that includes booty shaking ;)
< Message edited by McKate -- 3/21/2008 7:39:42 AM >
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 10:15:10 AM
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tafkam
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quote:
Do we put too much emphasis on music? I don't think so...actually, I don't think we put ENOUGH emphasis on the power that it has to bring people together and move them. Music is pure, unweighed emotional/soulful communication.
But that's the problem. Some believe that emotionalism in worship is wrong. If you feel emotional, especially as the result of a song, then it must be fleshly emotion and therefore inappropriate.
Personally I don't see how one exists without the other, but that's just me.....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 10:59:24 AM
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McKate
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Do we put too much emphasis on music? I don't think so...actually, I don't think we put ENOUGH emphasis on the power that it has to bring people together and move them. Music is pure, unweighed emotional/soulful communication.
But that's the problem. Some believe that emotionalism in worship is wrong. If you feel emotional, especially as the result of a song, then it must be fleshly emotion and therefore inappropriate.
Personally I don't see how one exists without the other, but that's just me.....
I agree with you. To me, that's an ancient idea. We feel emotion for everyone that we care about...why not God?
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 11:59:57 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Do we put too much emphasis on music? I don't think so...actually, I don't think we put ENOUGH emphasis on the power that it has to bring people together and move them. Music is pure, unweighed emotional/soulful communication.
But that's the problem. Some believe that emotionalism in worship is wrong. If you feel emotional, especially as the result of a song, then it must be fleshly emotion and therefore inappropriate.
Personally I don't see how one exists without the other, but that's just me.....
I don't think anyone has said that music has no importance -- even the topic article didn't say that unless someone mistook the sarcasm (the author even put a note that he was being facetious  ). I understood the frustration was about people wanting to have a certain feeling in order to build their faith and this desire is over and above what is being taught (or not taught as it were in many cases). That's a problem, and I agree that it makes for people who are not strong in their faith because their faith is either based entirely or almost entirely on how good they are made to feel in a corporate worship service. Certainly, feelings are a part of who we are, part of what the Lord created us to possess, so they have their place and should not be discounted as having no meaning in how we function. But to base our edification in the Lord on getting a high in corporate worship is a weak way to build faith -- whether it's via music or something else (and yes, there are those who get that high on acquiring information about the Bible; they're just as wrong).
What's interesting is that I don't recall in scripture that encouragment to be in continual search of circumstances that create a good feeling is the way to build faith. If it is, then then the Apostle Paul, James and a few others had it all wrong.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 3/21/2008 12:08:10 PM >
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 2:15:58 PM
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yustme
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OK.If I'm included in this statement,"some believe that emotionalism in worship is wrong",I want to clear this up.No one is more emotional than i am.Nor am i against emotions.God created emotions,and just like everything else,we can use them for good or for evil.I realy thought every one understood the difference between "dancing in the Lord",and keeping time to a beat."Dancing in the Lord" is not at all they we humans see it.And it's impossible to explain it to those who don't understand it.Yes i know i said i wasn't going to respond any more,but music is who i am.I grew up with music in my system and it;s a large part of me.And my husband is the same way.Emotions is a built in thing that comes with all styles of music.Like i said I
'm very emotional.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Do we put too much emphasis on music? I don't think so...actually, I don't think we put ENOUGH emphasis on the power that it has to bring people together and move them. Music is pure, unweighed emotional/soulful communication.
But that's the problem. Some believe that emotionalism in worship is wrong. If you feel emotional, especially as the result of a song, then it must be fleshly emotion and therefore inappropriate.
Personally I don't see how one exists without the other, but that's just me.....
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 3:21:44 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
I realy thought every one understood the difference between "dancing in the Lord",and keeping time to a beat."Dancing in the Lord" is not at all they we humans see it
Well, since the Lord created music, and keeping time (i.e. "beat") is a part of music, I'm hard pressed to find where "keeping the beat" would be at odds with "dancing to the Lord".
If one does not keep a beat, be it in performing music or dancing to it, then all you have is chaos. The Scripture tells us to do everything decently and in an orderly fashion.
quote:
And it's impossible to explain it to those who don't understand it.
I was really hoping you wouldn't fall back on that tired argument in yet another music thread, yustme. Because it conveniently gets you out of having to explain your views.
quote:
What's interesting is that I don't recall in scripture that encouragment to be in continual search of circumstances that create a good feeling is the way to build faith. If it is, then then the Apostle Paul, James and a few others had it all wrong.
Nobody's arguing in favor of a feel good form of worship to the exclusion of all else. We need to feel convicted, and angry, and unworthy, and a myriad of other elements of our Christian walk.
However, music is great for conveying or illustrating or augmenting any area you care to name, and for me is just as important a part of worship as the sermon, and sometimes moreso....
_____________________________
"A knight must not complain of his wounds, though his bowels be dropping out."
- Don Qixote, MAN OF LA MANCHA
Tafkam
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/21/2008 9:43:31 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I realy thought every one understood the difference between "dancing in the Lord",and keeping time to a beat."Dancing in the Lord" is not at all they we humans see it
Well, since the Lord created music, and keeping time (i.e. "beat") is a part of music, I'm hard pressed to find where "keeping the beat" would be at odds with "dancing to the Lord".
If one does not keep a beat, be it in performing music or dancing to it, then all you have is chaos. The Scripture tells us to do everything decently and in an orderly fashion.
quote:
And it's impossible to explain it to those who don't understand it.
I was really hoping you wouldn't fall back on that tired argument in yet another music thread, yustme. Because it conveniently gets you out of having to explain your views.
quote:
What's interesting is that I don't recall in scripture that encouragment to be in continual search of circumstances that create a good feeling is the way to build faith. If it is, then then the Apostle Paul, James and a few others had it all wrong.
Nobody's arguing in favor of a feel good form of worship to the exclusion of all else. We need to feel convicted, and angry, and unworthy, and a myriad of other elements of our Christian walk.
However, music is great for conveying or illustrating or augmenting any area you care to name, and for me is just as important a part of worship as the sermon, and sometimes moreso....
Perhaps no one in this thread is arguing for a feel good form of worship to the exclusion or practically to the exclusion of other things, but there are those who do this, and that's what the topic article was talking about and what this thread is about.
IMO (and it's just my opinion), several are missing the point of the thread. It seemed at one point to devolve into a discussion of style and then into a discussion of whether or not music is important. The topic article was not taking issue with a style, and he was not saying music was not important. He is simply saying that too much is focused on style issues and feel good issues and how those two relate. Obviously, I agree. But none of that means that music is unimportant or that people can't be emotional in a worship service. What he's talking about is their focus, and I have definitely seen people who get their knickers in a twist if the service "wasn't anointed" but what they really didn't like was the quality of music. That was their focus above all else.
Coming from an extensive music background myself and having numerous relatives who are or were professional musicians of several decades, and having come from a very large church that had first rate music (and often had professional Christian musicians performing), I like a certain level of quality (read that: my taste in music is pretty discriminating; no question about that). But I also realize that I won't necessarily have that in a small church in the boonies. However, even if the music in this small church is not the quality I'm accustom to as a musician and someone who has grown up with musicians (in church and out of church), that doesn't mean that the worship service is less anointed than the ones I was exposed to every Sunday in my old church. Sadly, there are sometimes people who attend our church and bemoan how much we don't have 'cause we don't have the really great musical performances (or a steady diet of them). That is sad to me that this much focus is on that. But hey, there are others who do this with teaching. There are those people who miss out on a great church body because we don't have someone of Chuck Swindoll's caliber teaching each Sunday. Great as the people are in our church, we just don't have a Chuck Swindoll. But it's still great to be here and God is at work.
Frankly, I think a lot of us are spoiled.
None of what I said should preclude someone from striving for a great performance of music during worship nor should it preclude someone from being emotional in a church service.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 3/21/2008 10:01:53 PM >
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/22/2008 3:03:12 PM
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Jesusfan4ever
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I think almost all of us are guilty about what style of music we want to sing at church. We all have to remember that it's not about us; it's about God. We can worship God while we're singing any style of Christian music at church. I know the church I go to here in Prineville has been through alot of changes with their music.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 3/23/2008 9:54:04 PM
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SD456
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quote:
I understood the frustration was about people wanting to have a certain feeling in order to build their faith and this desire is over and above what is being taught
I believe that we are to desire to grow more passionate about God - and for some, falling more in love means showing more emotion. It's how we were created. Though there are some who show little outward emotion when they are in love with their spouse, I'd much rather have someone really 'feel' in love with me if they were married to me. Our faith is built when we fall more in love with God, so there really is nothing wrong with wanting the emotions to grow stronger as we fall more in love.
quote:
What's interesting is that I don't recall in scripture that encouragment to be in continual search of circumstances that create a good feeling
I think that's a non-argument. You can't separate the search for and longing for God's presence from the emotion that it brings.
"as the deer pants for the water so my soul LONGS after God"
I think there's a huge mistake in judgement that some in the church make. They assume that just because people love to be in God's presence and celebrate with Him that they're doing it for the sole sake of emotion. That's not how it works. People hunger after God and when God answers that hunger, then emotion follows. Not the other way around. Too often people in the church try to make things sinful that are not sinful at all.
quote:
We can worship God while we're singing any style of Christian music at church.
That is true, but not easy to do. I have visited churches that play southern gospel and for the life of me cannot 'get' it and have a difficult time entering into worship. We are all created with different chords in us and different music will strike those chords differently. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 4/20/2008 3:54:46 PM
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BibleBear
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As Far as Music, it is also a venue that Satan Uses to entrap people into His ways. The Sounds and Lyrics are pleasing to the ears and acceptable even too many who say they are Christians. .
I have been Deaf since late 94. Right now I have a Cochlear implant. I can’t hear music correctly. Music is not an interference with me no longer..
It is nice to enjoy music at Church. But the main part is having the Truth being taught in the Church. . Those who desire particular music must also seek a Church that is Biblically Based Taught, Jesus at The Center and The Foundation of The Church. Pleasing Music alone will not save anyone.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 4/20/2008 10:16:12 PM
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MusicianDad
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I really love music. I don't find any prohibition agaist that in scripture.
I have to disagree with the idea that stripping worship down to it's bare essentials somehow makes it more spiritual. I grew up in a chuch that was as stripped down as you could get. It was all a cappella all the time. No piano, no choir, no robes, no nuth'n. All the same petty, shallow, stupid arguments and mind sets existed as in any other church. The problem is not the mode of worship, it's the heart of man.
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 4/21/2008 7:58:10 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
I understood the frustration was about people wanting to have a certain feeling in order to build their faith and this desire is over and above what is being taught
I believe that we are to desire to grow more passionate about God - and for some, falling more in love means showing more emotion. It's how we were created. Though there are some who show little outward emotion when they are in love with their spouse, I'd much rather have someone really 'feel' in love with me if they were married to me. Our faith is built when we fall more in love with God, so there really is nothing wrong with wanting the emotions to grow stronger as we fall more in love.
quote:
What's interesting is that I don't recall in scripture that encouragment to be in continual search of circumstances that create a good feeling
I think that's a non-argument. You can't separate the search for and longing for God's presence from the emotion that it brings.
"as the deer pants for the water so my soul LONGS after God"
I guess I wasn't clear. I'm not trying to separate the search and longing for the Lord from emotion it brings. I'm talking about someone's focus. Is it the emotions or the Lord? If it's the former, the focus is wrong.
quote:
I think there's a huge mistake in judgement that some in the church make. They assume that just because people love to be in God's presence and celebrate with Him that they're doing it for the sole sake of emotion. That's not how it works. People hunger after God and when God answers that hunger, then emotion follows. Not the other way around. Too often people in the church try to make things sinful that are not sinful at all.
You're reading too much into what I've said. I've never assumed that everyone who has a longing for the Lord and abiding in Him and in turn celebrating that are doing it for the sake of emotion. That's not what I'm talking about. But again, I guess it wasn't clear. To be clear, what I'm speaking of are people who are in search of emotion to validate their walk with the Lord, i.e., they're basing their closeness to the Lord on how they feel. But feelings are fickle. Feelings are not always the truth. Can they line up with the truth? Sure they can, but they don't always, and it's foolish to hang our hat on our feelings. We should put our trust in the Lord and His word, and not in how we feel. As for marriages, there are a good many people who believe that true love is predicated on always or perpetually "feeling in love," and a lot of those people don't make it long term in a marriage. Why? Because feelings are fickle and the truth is not.
None of what I've just said precludes someone from being emotional or enjoying themselves when they feel good or enjoying music as a form of worship. No prohibition on that at all. We just can't make feeling good our god and all too often that can happen with music, and this is coming form somsone who had been a musician for 40+ years.
I hope it's clear what I'm talking about.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 4/22/2008 3:31:21 AM
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kung_fu_sed
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Personally I think we're overanalyzing this whole thing. I make no bones of the fact that music means a great deal to me as far as worship goes, and there are moments when a song will move me to worship far more than a sermon will.
As for the whole "booty shaking = bad" argument, I've been ministering through music in churches for 20 years and I have yet to see this.
God created music, and Scripture tells us that everything was created for His glory.
So as the Gaithers said, "throw back your head and sing"...come let us worship the Lord God almighty.....
You know, I agree. Music is VERY important to us and should be. God created us to worship and there will be lots of music for eternity in heaven. We were created to feel the beat and to spiritually tune in to sound. God made everything in the universe have sound. It's now proven scientifically that the smallest particle that everything is made of is a sound particle. Not the atom as was once thought. Which means everything is constantly making sound and I believe worshipping God.
I agree SD. I believe music is one of the ways to open up the soul to God. Of course, there can be evil, and good music. Depends on the message of the song. If the song inspires you spiritually, and it's not just pleasing to your ears, then I think it's a good song. People have different preferences for different styles of music. Every soul has different switches that kicks them into praise and worship mode. Why do people always like to make up their own fantasies of how heaven will be like, and then force their beliefs down the throats of others. Remember this? "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him." That's right, NOR EAR HEARD. It's wrong to say that there is only one type of music that God gives the thumbs up sign to.
There is a difference between reading the Bible as a personal guide for your walk with Christ, and beating down YOUR interpretation of it on everyone. We can't categorize God into our little mental capacity boxes. Obviously we have to discern between what is satan's and what is God's, but we can't say that anything contrary to our preferences is satan's. I believe that if a song touches you to the soul level, and kick starts your inspiration for worship and praise, or simply preaches a message to you, it is a good song. If all the song does is bring pleasure to the ears, then it's useless.
< Message edited by kung_fu_sed -- 4/23/2008 11:38:34 PM >
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RE: Do we care too much about music? - 4/28/2008 8:39:39 PM
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micaiah03
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This is a good question. There are clear Old Testament references to music being in church. So, we need it, but how? First, the emphasis can | | | |
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Dood - the whole make a joyful noise? Yep, lots of it 
- I can't carry a tune, but the guys smiled and said it actually blessed them to know that you could be that lost in worship and it warmed their hearts. 
