Do we care too much about music? (Full Version)

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Jhud -> Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 6:02:56 PM)

Interesting blog piece by a pastor Greg Gilbert called Against Music* which reflects in many ways my growing feeelings about the current state of the evangelical church regarding music. An excerpt:

"I am really afraid that we’ve managed to create a generation of anemic Christians who are spiritually dependent on excellent music. Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.

‘Just as bad, think about how many church fights and divisions are rooted in disagreements about music. People leave churches because they don’t like the music. Christians who believe exactly the same things about Jesus worship in different buildings next door to each other because they can’t countenance one another’s musical style. Churches split because one faction wants “contemporary” music and another wants “traditional” music. It’s not the words that are at issue; it’s how the words are sung, and to what instrumentation. The thing even has its own name—the “Worship Wars,” which when translated with a little honesty is really “the Music Wars.”"

One thought that comes immediately to my mind is that for all their teachings, I don't particularly remember Jesus or Paul ever mentioning a particular kind of music. I am sure their have been times I have cared too much about the style of music I was singing or listening too - anyone else?



LCannon -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 6:45:20 PM)

From chants, to chorals, to classic hymns, to '70 'choruses', to contemporary 'worship' and any point between, music to worship to has been a contentious issue probably because music/worship is so close to one's soul. 'My preference' is just that; my preference for it's part my tradition and life experience however my life experience is no less or more valid then other's experience. Do I care too much about music? I'm passionate 'My preference' but I'm nearly as passionate as other's(except 'Christian' rock/rap)because we all worship/serve the same Lord.



AuthorOfMyFaith -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 7:24:20 PM)

I have to say that I am guilty of this one. I am a new Christian and music seems to be a biggie on which church I choose to attend. I attend a Foursquare in Portland, OR where we have rather impressive contemporary worship.

However, a few weeks ago they showed a DVD on worship music that really made me think about my behavior and choices. It was very similar to your point, Jhud. It asked the question 'Do I worship for the Lord or do I worship for myself and the way it makes me feel?' I realized that I was very much worshipping for myself. I don't think any of us can deny what a beautiful thing it is to feel His presence when we worship, but we need to remember that worship is not about us or the way we feel, but rather that we are offering joyful sounds unto the Lord. That we are exalting Him and singing praises unto Him.

Anyway, it made me evaluate my motives. Today, I try very hard to make sure my worshipping is about God and not about me.



stellaluna -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 8:16:59 PM)

I'm not sure which direction I'm going to end up going with this, but bear with me. [:D]

quote:


Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.

I think this lies at the middle of it all. I think the word "worship" is misunderstood to mean ONLY (or mostly) giving praise to God in the midst of other believers. We heard a great sermon this past weekend about other things that God considers worship. I think a lot of people wait for their weekly fill and then need a more prolonged worship service to get into the groove. One hymn isn't going to cut it. It's not long enough and it's too somber to let loose. Does that make sense?

And as far as a particular style of music is concerned in biblical times, I would almost guarantee that any worship music would reflect the musical sound of the day. That means the natural progression to some of the worship or Christian music we have now is expected and perfectly legitimate. So in that sense, I don't understand the backlash against "contemporary" worship, nor do I buy into the idea that church music must remain unchanged from 1750 on.

Anecdotally, I've known of several churches that split over music; the most recent example is my grandmother's southern Baptist church. In an effort to counteract dwindling attendance, the church began offering a traditional Sunday morning service and a contemporary one. Numbers started going up, up, up and everyone was happy. But the number of people in the traditional service took a sharp nosedive. At the end of a few months, there were so few attending the traditional service the church was compelled to give it up all together. My grandmother is sticking it out because she was baptized in that church when she was a child and has 70+ years of attendance under her belt, but she is devastated over the changes.



HisCovenant -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 8:23:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

"I am really afraid that we’ve managed to create a generation of anemic Christians who are spiritually dependent on excellent music. Their sense of spiritual well-being is based on feeling “close to God,” their feeling close to God is based on their “ability to worship,” and being able to worship depends on big crowds singing great music.

As a classically trained soprano, this cracked me up!!!!! Most music written and sung today is both composed and performed with little to no excellence. [8D]

Paul did mention that we are to sing "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" which does speak to styles somewhat...but the "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" of Israel in his day have little resemblence to what we call "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" in this generation in western culture.

I think our obsession with style is because we are immature and don't know God and how He defines worship. We're so focused on ourselves, and we're discipling other Christians to this same selfish immaturity.

The older I get and the more I study my Bible, the more I believe that music has little to do with worship. Music should be a piece of life that comes from our hearts and tells both God and others of His worthiness to be praised and obeyed. It should be shared corporately. I believe that it should be done to your best ability, but that's my scruple because I am able to sing well. If it can't be done well, God should still be praised in music. It's really about His worthiness as God, not our worthiness as singers/instrumentalists. The main part of worship is how we live and bow in obedience to Christ in all we do and say. Corporate worship is important, but a very small part of the worship commanded by God.



crankius -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 8:35:09 PM)

YES, I think people care too much about music.

quote:

I think the entire evangelical world ought to put a moratorium on any kind of instrumental music, and just chant psalms in their worship services—for the next ten years.


I think I would like this! [:D]

I would be fine with just a piano (or just a guitar) and hymnbooks for singing. I miss the days of the entire congregation singing all the parts, and no group up front and no focus on sound systems, sounding good, looking good, rehearsals, leadership issues that come with music programs, structured "mood" order to worship, special lighting, performance-based music, big white screens, etc.

All these things are not problems all the time, but they are there enough to make me feel [:'(] about church music.



sunshine4God -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/18/2008 10:18:46 PM)

I think so.I've heard entire churches split over Music choices.That just seems silly to me.There are so many other things to worry about ya know.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 12:49:31 AM)

A while back I was in the hospital and one of the nurses happened to go to my church. I asked her which service she went to because I hadn't seen her at church and she said the early service, which is a traditional service with hymns and a choir while the other services have a praise and worship team and contemporary music.

She said she liked the traditional service because the contemporary music was too loud. Well a couple week later I tried the traditional service...and found it to be just as loud.

I prefer a contemporay music format but I don't think its more holy or better to worship the Lord to than hymns. Its just what I like. I wouldn't change churches over the music....unless the music became the service which I have seen in the past and left that church for that reason.



1love1God1way -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 2:35:41 AM)

Last year, the church that I attend and play in the worship band for combined our Wednesday night worship so that they adults and the youth are together, instead of having worship take place in two separate spots in the church at the same time.

Many of the adults were quite angry. Instead of their organ, piano, and singer, they would now have to have guitars, drums, the works. Some threatened the pastor to leave altogether.

A year later, and the adults aren't much better. There are a couple that worship. The rest sit as far away from the youth as possible, and just sit there, arms crossed, grumpily. Another chunk of the adults just show up late on Wednesday nights til after worship when they can just go to the Bible Study.

Talk about missing the heart of worship.

I am proud of our youth. They never complained once about the adults leading worship on sunday morning in the old fashion. They enter in just the same.



timf -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 7:27:52 AM)

Do we care too much about music?

When a body of believers differentiates into performer and audience, there is going to be trouble. This is seen when the performer is a priest conducting a ritual, a pastor giving a sermon / lecture, or a choir singing a song. If a group begins to see themselves as a consumer of a performance, they often begin to evaluate the performance in terms of how it made them feel (the itching ears of 2 Timothy 4:3).

Worship should be about drawing hearts to the Lord. When people mistake this for performances that make them feel good, there can be confusion. Many disagreements have at their root not a style or type of music, but the concern that the music may represent a dangerous elevation of self and pursuit of pleasure under the guise of worship.



JimboFletch -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 7:43:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius
I would be fine with just a piano (or just a guitar) and hymnbooks for singing. I miss the days of the entire congregation singing all the parts, and no group up front and no focus on sound systems, sounding good, looking good, rehearsals, leadership issues that come with music programs, structured "mood" order to worship, special lighting, performance-based music, big white screens, etc.

My concern isn't so much about instrumentation; I feel that even instrumentalists should have the opportunity to offer up praise in the way they have been gifted and trained. My concern is with the general lack of meaningful message to some otherwise entertaining music (and "entertaining music" isn't intended as a compliment.)

I'll admit that the tunes of some hymns are musically boring today, but their messages are deeper, higher, and wider by miles than some of the praise choruses we have.

In contrast, the Psalms are rich in doctrine and message. (If I read them correctly, they were also accompanied by many instruments.)



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 7:59:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

I miss the days of the entire congregation singing all the parts, and no group up front and no focus on sound systems, sounding good, looking good, rehearsals, leadership issues that come with music programs, structured "mood" order to worship, special lighting, performance-based music, big white screens, etc.
I think I'm going to have a siggy one day that simply says, "I agree with Cranky."

Your above quote is one of the reasons why I prefer smaller churches . . . or at least simpler churches.



kernsfamily -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 10:06:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

I miss the days of the entire congregation singing all the parts, and no group up front and no focus on sound systems, sounding good, looking good, rehearsals, leadership issues that come with music programs, structured "mood" order to worship, special lighting, performance-based music, big white screens, etc.
I think I'm going to have a siggy one day that simply says, "I agree with Cranky."

Your above quote is one of the reasons why I prefer smaller churches . . . or at least simpler churches.


So, just because we give our VERY BEST to worship God.....and look good (what, do you expect ANYONE to "look bad"?).....sound good (hmmm...that's WHY I am not in choir...I KNOW I don't sound good, and my "gifts" are in other areas)....Rehearsals? Once a week our 600+ people in choir get together and they "sing through" the music for the upcoming Sunday....which, is especially helpful when there is NEW music to be sung....or, to the benefit of those who are new to other music selections (not everyone has the benefit of having sung the very same songs their entire lives....)....

No big white screens? (which are rarely "white" since they are always in operation) ..that's the "desire" to have everyone's head buried in a book.....
I have thought about the "everyone having a book" to sing from just this past Sunday in church, instead of using the iMag screens that we use.....

Let's say our church goes that way, and we do use books instead of the screen. HOW MANY books shall we have? The Southern Baptist Hymnal, for sure....perhaps a few others for other hymns and other "genres" that we sing in church.
What about the NEW "modern day" hymns (that get written and released AFTER our songbooks get passed out) and songs that our piano player writes and composes for the congregation? Are we to print 5,000+ copies of those to pass around, as well?

it all goes back to PREFERENCE...and "I wish they just do it the way they've always done it"....

there's no "right and wrong" about it. (to a certain point)



FearoftheLord -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 10:18:38 AM)

I believe Satan is using music to divide the church. I believe people worship music more than they do God.
I was visiting a church who played the contemporary music which sounds like Rock music. I noticed that every time the music got louder, they would jump higher. When the music would get low the people would stop worshipping. Were they worshipping the music? I believe they were.

I just wonder how many people would go to church if the pastor said; We are going to sing without music for one month. Would they lay out for a month.
We should be able to worship God without music just as well as we can with music.



stellaluna -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 10:23:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FearoftheLord
I believe Satan is using music to divide the church. I believe people worship music more than they do God.
I was visiting a church who played the contemporary music which sounds like Rock music. I noticed that every time the music got louder, they would jump higher. When the music would get low the people would stop worshipping. Were they worshipping the music? I believe they were.

I think this can moreso be attributed to humans not wanting to look stupid. People don't want to look dumb, no matter how compelled they feel to worship. If the music gets loud, it's okay to sing loud to the Lord. If it's quiet, you don't want to be the person that stands out. It's not about being between a person and God anymore; it's about fitting in. It's kind of dumb.



doinkdom -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 10:39:52 AM)

IMO and again imo...

For many people, music touches them deeply without words. It blasts through head issues and many times, leaves our hearts broken. Broken before God? maybe...maybe not - when we realize that musical worship is not about us, then we can be broken before God as an empty vessel awaiting His filling.

Here are just a couple of thoughts:

Many members of the body of Christ have deep concerns about music as it relates to worship - some concerns are valid, many are not. Many people associate anything outside of the traditional hymn with Lucifer, which is sad to me because by doing so, they don't allow for the Holy Spirit to work in someone's life through their musical talents.

I also think that as Christians in today's culture - we don't like our emotions - we think they are always a bad thing, that if we are moved emotionally, we should dismiss it because we are deceived.

I am the first to say that yes, emotions can definitely be deceiving...but the work of the Holy Spirit is also convicting and ultimately emotional as we become passionate about those convictions. That passion can produce a righteous anger which leads to an action that will bring glory to God.

I agree that some churches put on a show/concert every week, but so many other churches have been prayerful to not do this.

While my husband (the most logical man on earth) abandon's himself in worship through God's word, he is also deeply moved by worship music that honors God.



crankius -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 10:40:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

that's the "desire" to have everyone's head buried in a book.....



You have an interesting understanding of singing from books. I'm a musician, and I prefer to read the music while I sing, and I focus on the words much more when I'm reading the music. When I'm looking up front to a big white screen and a large music group, I'm looking at the show.

So, perhaps I could state that your perspective is the "desire" to have everyone watching the show.

But I wouldn't say that because that would be wrong. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and believe that each person is there to worship, regardless of the format.

As a person who has been part of the show and plays classical guitar and is often asked to sing solos at church, I can say that I often believe all of that stuff gets in the way of real community, fellowship, and worship.



crankius -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:05:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I think I'm going to have a siggy one day that simply says, "I agree with Cranky."

Your above quote is one of the reasons why I prefer smaller churches . . . or at least simpler churches.


[8D] Oh my, please don't--as soon as you do you'll see one of my more ridiculous posts and you'll regret it.

I like smaller churches too, but where I am even the smaller churches are trying to purchase white screens and projectors, and gathering as much as they can for the music up front.

Again, I'm not saying there is anything inherently wrong in doing those things, but I have concerns about what all those things bring to the church as a whole.



elastic -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:23:34 AM)

There is no one muscial style that will please everybody. Plain and simple. That being said, there is no musical worship style that is more holy or pleasing to God than any other musical style. If it is praising his name, then he loves it. Isaiah 42:10 says "Sing to the LORD a new song, Sing His praise from the end of the earth! You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it. You islands, and those who dwell on them."

it doesn't say, sing the same old thing day after day...it says sing a new song.


I can appreciate that there are people who don't like CCM....fine....there are churches who have traditional music if it suits you better, then go to one of those churches. there is a little something for everyone.



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (2/19/2008 11:27:35 AM)

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crankius -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:32:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'll admit that the tunes of some hymns are musically boring today, but their messages are deeper, higher, and wider by miles than some of the praise choruses we have.


A few years ago I took For the Beauty of the Earth and made up classical guitar accompaniment to it, and sang it at church.

Afterwards, people came to me and said how pretty it was and such--and even had people say they had never heard it before. [&o] That made me sad. I gave one fella my copy.

I'm having great fun with the old hymns, making them new again.



Jhud -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:35:28 AM)

It's interesting to follow the responses on this thread. I am curious, in terms of what would cause one to either attend a church or not attend a church, how much of a priority is a certain style of music?



kernsfamily -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:37:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

that's the "desire" to have everyone's head buried in a book.....



You have an interesting understanding of singing from books. I'm a musician, and I prefer to read the music while I sing, and I focus on the words much more when I'm reading the music. When I'm looking up front to a big white screen and a large music group, I'm looking at the show.

So, perhaps I could state that your perspective is the "desire" to have everyone watching the show.

But I wouldn't say that because that would be wrong. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and believe that each person is there to worship, regardless of the format.

As a person who has been part of the show and plays classical guitar and is often asked to sing solos at church, I can say that I often believe all of that stuff gets in the way of real community, fellowship, and worship.


you totally missed the point I stated as to WHY alot of churches do not have books.....we do not want limit ourselves to JUST those songs that are in that ONE song book......whether they be other hymns (can ALL possible hymns be put in one book? 4 books?....or, whether they be NEW songs that were just composed....)

you mentioned READING the music...well, that's great....if the VERY SAME music is played EXACTLY the same way time and time again.....(we sing some old hymns, but with new arrangements (which are done by the guy who plays piano)...that would render the "music" in any book almost useless)....

I see nothing getting in the way of "real" community, fellowship and worship at all....(that's determined by the heart of the people...and their fellowship with God)...and, it can be "real" or not...regardless of how the music is played...what music is played...or, where the music/lyrics are read from....



HisCovenant -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:38:47 AM)

Style is unimportant, but depth and truth is very important. If a contemporary song isn't meaninglessly repetative and has sound doctrine, sing it. If a hymn is doctrinally wrong or too repetative, toss it out.



HisCovenant -> RE: Do we care too much about music? (2/19/2008 11:41:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
you mentioned READING the music...well, that's great....if the VERY SAME music is played EXACTLY the same way time and time again.....(we sing some old hymns, but with new arrangements (which are done by the guy who plays piano)...that would render the "music" in any book almost useless)....

That's assuming you could learn it well from the praise team. At our church, the alto part overpowers the rest of the voices which makes learning the song without music rather difficult. [;)]



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