IF the rapture is scriptural, (Full Version)

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bettymackII -> IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/4/2008 7:55:40 PM)

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks



Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/4/2008 8:16:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


They won't be able to respond and you know it. HOWEVER, the rapture (Greek: harpazoo) IS scriptural! It's just not for the purpose of escaping the Wrath of the Lamb.

Retrobyter



ta_mosquito -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/4/2008 8:18:48 PM)

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TheoCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/5/2008 7:10:32 AM)

You'll be waiting until the second coming for this one.

[:D]



bettymackII -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/7/2008 1:58:45 PM)

Good thinking!

You have answered correctly!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

You'll be waiting until the second coming for this one.

[:D]



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/10/2008 2:33:14 PM)

Hmmmm!

Eight days and not one scripture.
That ought to be an eye-opener betty.

But, let's not confuse the masses by facts. lol.



JimboFletch -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/10/2008 2:36:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

Good thinking!

You have answered correctly!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

You'll be waiting until the second coming for this one.

[:D]


Dearest Betty, it comes right after the verse that clearly states the Trinity is a true doctrine. You know the one, so I'll let you be the one to share it with us in your thread.
[sm=thumbsup.gif]



1love1God1way -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 12:44:18 AM)

Jimbo, isn't that in the same area where Jesus shares the Sinner's Prayer?



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 1:13:41 AM)

Greetings! The Church is indeed going to go through 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 more days of tribulation war of the Saints of God Almighty enduring the mark of the beast trial that comes through the false prophet worldly messiah known also as the anti christ. Then the rapture will occur as it is written two women will be plowing in a field and one will be taken and the other left. The Apostle says that we will all be caught up with Him in the air as He comes to make war on the kingdom of the false worldly messiah prophet known as the anti christ.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 12:16:00 PM)

quote:

Greetings! The Church is indeed going to go through 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 more days of tribulation war of the Saints of God Almighty


Sorry prophetica but the Church will not see the amount of tribulation that you have stated. Because the Great Tribulation starts at the mid point of the last week and then the gathering occurs at some point during the latter part of the week, the Church will see something less than 1260 days of trouble. How much less is depending upon your view of the Day of the Lord, I see it as being a one year period, others see it as being something less. Regardless, the Church will be gone during the additional 30 and 45 days. There is a possibility that the Church would be around the during this last 75 day period, if in fact the Church returns with Christ for the battle of Armageddon which is also subject to some debate. If the Church does return with Christ then the occasion will be one of Glory, not tribulation.

Bob



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 3:24:06 PM)

Greetings Bob97! In my understanding there exists tribulation until the midpoint of the trial of the mark of the beast with war on the Saints of God Most High, then a period of 30-75 days window when the rapture will occur; then the Great Tribulation Judgment decrees as they are written in revelation. The Great Tribulation period begins at the midpoint when the abomination that causes desolation is set up in the Temple of God at Jerusalem.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

Greetings! The Church is indeed going to go through 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days plus 30-75 more days of tribulation war of the Saints of God Almighty


Sorry prophetica but the Church will not see the amount of tribulation that you have stated. Because the Great Tribulation starts at the mid point of the last week and then the gathering occurs at some point during the latter part of the week, the Church will see something less than 1260 days of trouble. How much less is depending upon your view of the Day of the Lord, I see it as being a one year period, others see it as being something less. Regardless, the Church will be gone during the additional 30 and 45 days. There is a possibility that the Church would be around the during this last 75 day period, if in fact the Church returns with Christ for the battle of Armageddon which is also subject to some debate. If the Church does return with Christ then the occasion will be one of Glory, not tribulation.

Bob



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 9:12:13 PM)

quote:

Greetings Bob97! In my understanding there exists tribulation until the midpoint of the trial of the mark of the beast with war on the Saints of God Most High, then a period of 30-75 days window when the rapture will occur; then the Great Tribulation Judgment decrees as they are written in revelation. The Great Tribulation period begins at the midpoint when the abomination that causes desolation is set up in the Temple of God at Jerusalem.


prophetica, Christ tells us in Mat 24 that the events leading up to the mid point will be the beginning of sorrow;

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

In many respects these times will not be any different than we live in today and Christ gives us clues to this effect;

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

But then at the mid point this will all change;

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You talk about a period of 3o-75 days and I’m assuming that you are getting this from Dan 12

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

If this be the case I think you are misinterpreting what it means. According to the feasts, Christ would return at the Feast of Yom Kippur which would mark the end of the 1260 day last half of the week. Then 75 days later at the Feast of Channukah is the time of the rededication of the Temple of God

Bob



lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/11/2008 10:17:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


Here it is, clear as crystal:

Rev 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"After" what? After the sealing of the 144000. Why were they sealed? Of course, for their protection during the first half of the 70th week. Therefore, John sees this great crowd in heaven, BEFORE the 70th week has even started! Who are they? Of course they are the just raptured church. When were they raptured? Undoubtedly at the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. Why an earthquake that shakes the entire planet? Matthew said, "and the ground did quake...and the graves were opened." Resurrections cause earthquakes. Since this will be the dead in christ, they will come from all over the planet; hense a world wide earthquake.

Why is the church seen in heaven? Jesus told us:

John 14
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What takes place on earth, after the church is gone? God's wrath!

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The church cannot be here during His wrath:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church has no appointment with wrath. Plain and simple.

Coop



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/12/2008 1:26:46 AM)

Greetings bob97! I believe that the feast of yom kippur that you mentioned marks the end of the midpoint at which time the abomination that causes the Desolation decrees mentioned by Christ as Great Tribulation and recorded in revelation in successive Judgment ordinances will be issued after the 75 day marking on the calendar the feast of Channnukah. I believe that this is enough time left in the seven year period to account for the all of the trumpet and bowl Judgments that are written and that The Church of The Lamb of God will be delivered as it is written before they are issued. The Believers of Christ will be delivered from these punishments after standing the trial of the mark of the beast and war The Saints of God Most High for 1260 days or 3 1/2 years or 42 months plus 30-75 days depending on whether Michael arises to Judge them sooner. There will be deliverance during the 1260 day or 3 1/2 year or 42 month period for New Jerusalem Israel at the Testimony of two witnesses as recorded in revelation. When the witnesses are killed and raised from the dead, New Jerusalem Israel must heed the words of Jesus Christ to flee to the mountains and take nothing with them. For the false prophet will set up the abomination that causes desolations to be poured out upon his kingdom worldwide will have 30-75 days of further trial with which to test New Jerusalem Israel. Edom, Moab, and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand, in accordance with what is written in Daniel.
These prophecies are the reason that the beast will utter blasphemes against God Most High, for they will be prophesying many plagues and things concerning the kingdoms of the world.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

Greetings Bob97! In my understanding there exists tribulation until the midpoint of the trial of the mark of the beast with war on the Saints of God Most High, then a period of 30-75 days window when the rapture will occur; then the Great Tribulation Judgment decrees as they are written in revelation. The Great Tribulation period begins at the midpoint when the abomination that causes desolation is set up in the Temple of God at Jerusalem.


prophetica, Christ tells us in Mat 24 that the events leading up to the mid point will be the beginning of sorrow;

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

In many respects these times will not be any different than we live in today and Christ gives us clues to this effect;

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

But then at the mid point this will all change;

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You talk about a period of 3o-75 days and I’m assuming that you are getting this from Dan 12

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

If this be the case I think you are misinterpreting what it means. According to the feasts, Christ would return at the Feast of Yom Kippur which would mark the end of the 1260 day last half of the week. Then 75 days later at the Feast of Channukah is the time of the rededication of the Temple of God

Bob



TheoCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/12/2008 5:42:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lecoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


Here it is, clear as crystal:

Rev 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"After" what? After the sealing of the 144000. Why were they sealed? Of course, for their protection during the first half of the 70th week. Therefore, John sees this great crowd in heaven, BEFORE the 70th week has even started! Who are they? Of course they are the just raptured church. When were they raptured? Undoubtedly at the worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. Why an earthquake that shakes the entire planet? Matthew said, "and the ground did quake...and the graves were opened." Resurrections cause earthquakes. Since this will be the dead in christ, they will come from all over the planet; hense a world wide earthquake.

Why is the church seen in heaven? Jesus told us:

John 14
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What takes place on earth, after the church is gone? God's wrath!

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The church cannot be here during His wrath:

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church has no appointment with wrath. Plain and simple.

Coop

That's quite some twisting and reading into of the scriptures there. Good job on the attempt.

It's still wrong.



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/12/2008 5:36:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


Coop, you didn't answer the question because you didn't read it correctly.
That's my assumption.

It's not debatable verses.
But an actual verse that says what you are implying.

It's a nice try, but that's why this thread has just been laying here. LOL.


There is one verse:

OPINIONS 6:66
"Thus saith my guru, The lord will descend with a shout and snatch us all up
and we will have a party for seven years and then we swoop down on the earth
and continue the party there."

OPINIONS 6:67
"This of course, is optional; if you desire to float on a silver cloud and play a harp
of gold, that's okay too."

[sm=hammerhead.gif]



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/14/2008 4:08:35 PM)

Hi Betty,

Look like you've come up with a real "stumper!" lol.

Many of our threads should be just as direct.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/15/2008 11:34:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks



Greetings,


Greetings,

This is easy,


but it depends on how one views their replacement theologies, because it will determine where they will end up in the tribulation that is to come ,

What would you like to know?

Ill start here
How is your knowledge discerning the differences between the betrothal and the wedding in time of Jesus?

The Jew believes in the bride and bridegroom, which has messianic fulfillment, with the Jew as the Bride, which is called the last day or the consummation which is the eight day spoken of by the prophet Daniel

The Church is the betrothed has the promise of His return, simple because He already came “once” and made the arrangements!


In time of Jesus the OT Betrothal; stipulates
There is …no legal duration… (or no law) dictating the time between the betrothal and the wedding announcement other that what is agreed upon between the interested parties.
Notice the stipulation for the betrothed mentions an “announcement!
…So the Jew believing in the messianic prophecy the disciples therefore asked Him in Acts, saying, at this time, referencing to the destruction of the temple, will you restore the “KINGDOM” to Israel, which is speaking of the Messianic prophecy which is the eight day spoken of by the prophet Daniel

When the announcement is announced, obliviously… the stipulation concerning the wedding ceremony goes into affect ((the same wedding scenario that Jesus and His disciples attended in Cana in Galilee in John 2. >>

When the announcement is announced it states that the Betrothed and the Groom each fulfill their week,
According to the Kabbalas Panim States that The Groom Choson and Bride the Kallah “Do not see each other” during “that week” ..“prior”.. to the wedding.

When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine." 4 "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied. "My time has not yet come."

Now if you notice in v9 of John 2 makes mention to the master of the BANQUET!
The banquet here is “the clue” that what is referenced is … ““after”” the “wedding”

Before the wedding
And according to the same Kabbalas Panim there are “two receptions” that are held “separately in the same room”, for the Groom Choson and Bride (Betrothed) the Kallah…
We have one room for the bride (Betrothed), the kallah,
And one for the groom the Choson,

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


And each according to the Kabbalas Panim is where they will be greeted by relatives (Saints)+(Jews) and friends (IN CHRIST)… and they the kallah and the Choson are and praised and blessed… “”before the Wedding””
The same as we see in the book of Rev, just after John was called up

But once the wedding is announced …. At the time which the Father has put in His own Authority as Jesus said to his disciples when they asked if at that time will HE restore the “KINGDOM” to Israel…..so we do not know the day or the hour this announcement will be given

But once the wedding is announced there are two stipulations.

One exception is that the marriage of the betrothed “May not take place”… “in less than seven days”, after the announcement, which is at the end of the tribulation… but by law “has to” take place 7 days after the announcement, which is the eighth day …

And the other exception is the fulfillment of bride and bridegroom for the Jews by the fulfillment of the transgression according to Daniels 70th WEEK….where in that “week” the Jew (the Bride) fulfills her “week”, as the betrothed fulfilled their “week”.
At that time we return with Him and HE will “restore” the “KINGDOM” to Israel.

As prophesied fulfilling both the promise made to Abraham Genesis 22:15-19
17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,

“On earth (Israel)”, as it is “in Heaven” (the Saints)… which is the Lords prayer…

On earth….Israel will take possession of the cities of their enemies

As it is Heaven …. The Saints will take possession of the cities of their enemies over the dark powers and principalities in High places.
I don’t know what there is not to understand about that???
quote:

IF the rapture is scriptural, Please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.
Thanks



The Basic premise is all there for you in the above....is there anything else I could help you with??


It’s quite clear according to the scriptures; the Bible is the clear verse!
….That is if one was to “read” the Book.[;)]



Loyal Gypsy



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/15/2008 11:43:08 PM)

This is a trick question...right?

Bob



bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/15/2008 11:45:05 PM)

I bet you intended to ask...if a pretrib rapture is scriptural please give the verse.

Maybe I'm wrong.[:)]

Bob



Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 3:08:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

I bet you intended to ask...if a pretrib rapture is scriptural please give the verse.


Bob:

You are quite right. This question is about establishing a pre-tribulation rapture from Scripture.

The first thing to understand is that the Tribulation that comes upon this world before the Second coming of Christ is a manifestation of the wrath of God against sin and wickedness. The Tribulation period (including the Great Tribulation) is a series of judgments on mankind.

From Rev. 6-19, all we see is the Tribulation Period, and there is not a word about the Church receiving judgments through this period. This is God's wrath against sin, just as Noah's Flood was a worldwide judgment against sin and wickedness. Christians have been saved from wrath through the sacrifice of Christ (Jn. 3:36).

Scripture teaches a pre-tribulation rapture without the shadow of a doubt.

1 Thess. 1:10 -- And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME.

1 Thess. 5:9 -- For God HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is "the wrath to come"? See Rev. 6-19 for the answer.

Because the coming of Christ for His saints is their "blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13), Paul says again and again in connection with the Rapture, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4:18), "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, as also ye do" (1 Thess. 5:11), "And to you who are troubled, rest with us..." (2 Thess. 1:7), "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,..." (2 Thess. 2:2), "Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and given us everlasting consolation, and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work" (2 Thess. 2:16,17).

Tribulation does not give comfort. Therefore those who deny a pre-tribulation rapture understand neither the meanng of God's wrath, nor His grace and mercy to those who have believed on His Son. Christians, be comforted. We are not appointed to wrath.



TheoCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 6:50:14 AM)

That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God



Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 10:44:38 AM)

quote:

please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks


And still waiting.....................ROFL.



cybrjewls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 11:33:01 AM)

Amen. They will face the trial of the mark of the beast of the false worldly prophet as written, this is not the wrath of God. This is the tribulation period. The wrath of God will be poured out upon the kingdom of the false prophet worldwide; which is also called the Great Tribulation Judgments (decisions) or desolation decrees as written. We notice that the multitude that no one could count comes out of the Great Tribulation, and is not under the punishments. It is only for about 3/4 of the time period of one of our US Presidency's that We will have to endure. No one can buy or sell anything for this period worldwide; especially in the cities; without the mark of the number of the name of the false worldly prophet. For they, the ten rulers who will come, will tear apart Babylon the Great and have unholy communion with her in the process as it is written in revelation. We must stand firm in the faith, or we will not stand at all.

This in not the end of the world or the nations, but the beginning of Christ's rule at Jerusalem for a thousand years as written. It is a time for great celebration, after enduring the trials. For, they will rule with Christ Jesus as priests for a thousand years, and have a part in the first resurrection. What is 3 1/2 years plus 30-75 days of trials compared to the wealth that Christ offers Us? Forever in paradise, and a thousand year reign as priests of The Lamb.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God



Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/16/2008 3:15:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God


Just because you or some others choose to redefine things in Scripture does not make them so. So unless you can prove from Scripture that the Tribulation (including the Great Tribulation) is not a manifestation of God's wrath, you do not have a case.



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