RE: A Case of Demonic Possession

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rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 4:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 Not really disagreeing with you, except to point out that this was Jesus, not anyone else. Jesus also healed miraculously, but few people believe in modern faith-healing as it is described in the Bible. I see these as being comparable phenomenon. I fully understand that many folks do not believe in demonic possession or even influence, much less the deliverance of these poor souls. But I do, and I do because the New Testament tells us to do this and promises us that we can through the Nave of Jesus. The same applies to healing, it seems really difucult to me to ignore the passage in Jame; (Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. That instruction to the Church is valid in the Church today. The kicker is the "Prayer of Faith" and if the folks doing the prayeing do not believe (Faith) then it is a waste of time. We are also instructied to cast out demons. And Christ even promises (Joh 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I and my Church choose to believe the New Testament, others can believe or not; that is their perogative. Thanks RC

JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 4:35:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 Not really disagreeing with you, except to point out that this was Jesus, not anyone else. Jesus also healed miraculously, but few people believe in modern faith-healing as it is described in the Bible. I see these as being comparable phenomenon. I fully understand that many folks do not believe in demonic possession or even influence, much less the deliverance of these poor souls. But I do, and I do because the New Testament tells us to do this and promises us that we can through the Nave of Jesus. The same applies to healing, it seems really difucult to me to ignore the passage in Jame; (Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. That instruction to the Church is valid in the Church today. The kicker is the "Prayer of Faith" and if the folks doing the prayeing do not believe (Faith) then it is a waste of time. We are also instructied to cast out demons. And Christ even promises (Joh 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I and my Church choose to believe the New Testament, others can believe or not; that is their perogative. Thanks RC I'm a stiff old Southern Baptist and I agree with you on this. I do have reservations about demons possessing the redeemed, Holy Spirit indwelt Christians. But anyone else is subject to demonic affliction, possession, and/or influence.

Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 4:38:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 Not really disagreeing with you, except to point out that this was Jesus, not anyone else. Jesus also healed miraculously, but few people believe in modern faith-healing as it is described in the Bible. I see these as being comparable phenomenon. I fully understand that many folks do not believe in demonic possession or even influence, much less the deliverance of these poor souls. But I do, and I do because the New Testament tells us to do this and promises us that we can through the Nave of Jesus. The same applies to healing, it seems really difucult to me to ignore the passage in Jame; (Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. That instruction to the Church is valid in the Church today. The kicker is the "Prayer of Faith" and if the folks doing the prayeing do not believe (Faith) then it is a waste of time. We are also instructied to cast out demons. And Christ even promises (Joh 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I and my Church choose to believe the New Testament, others can believe or not; that is their perogative. Thanks RC I'm a stiff old Southern Baptist and I agree with you on this. I do have reservations about demons possessing the redeemed, Holy Spirit indwelt Christians. But anyone else is subject to demonic affliction, possession, and/or influence. I agree with both of you. We serve the same God as Christians have served for years. We may have changed bot God did not. He will still empower us to do great things if we believe and have the faith of a seed of mustard.

rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 5:30:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I'm a stiff old Southern Baptist and I agree with you on this. I do have reservations about demons possessing the redeemed, Holy Spirit indwelt Christians. But anyone else is subject to demonic affliction, possession, and/or influence. I agree with you on your post. And by the way; this ole Full Gospel Holiness preacher has held some really great revivals in SBC Churhes over years. One does not have to prach or teach baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, or against OSAS to have a great revivla; just teaching the Gospel will get it done. Thsnks RC

JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 5:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I'm a stiff old Southern Baptist and I agree with you on this. I do have reservations about demons possessing the redeemed, Holy Spirit indwelt Christians. But anyone else is subject to demonic affliction, possession, and/or influence. I agree with you on your post. And by the way; this ole Full Gospel Holiness preacher has held some really great revivals in SBC Churhes over years. One does not have to prach or teach baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, or against OSAS to have a great revivla; just teaching the Gospel will get it done. Thsnks RC Twice now, we have had superb messages preached in our SBC church by John Ed Mathison, the then pastor of Frazer United Methodist church in Montgomery, AL. (He's now retired as pastor and has started another full-time Methodist ministry). He has also led training sessions for AL state SBC leaders & pastors. Hard to imagine that 30 years ago.

Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 8:18:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch I'm a stiff old Southern Baptist and I agree with you on this. I do have reservations about demons possessing the redeemed, Holy Spirit indwelt Christians. But anyone else is subject to demonic affliction, possession, and/or influence. I agree with you on your post. And by the way; this ole Full Gospel Holiness preacher has held some really great revivals in SBC Churhes over years. One does not have to prach or teach baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, or against OSAS to have a great revivla; just teaching the Gospel will get it done. Thsnks RC Twice now, we have had superb messages preached in our SBC church by John Ed Mathison, the then pastor of Frazer United Methodist church in Montgomery, AL. (He's now retired as pastor and has started another full-time Methodist ministry). He has also led training sessions for AL state SBC leaders & pastors. Hard to imagine that 30 years ago. I guess it just depends on where you are or were. I remember growing up with my dad preaching. He was one of them old fashion hell fire and brimstone preachers in the Methodist Church. It was nothing uncommon to hear ans see people shouting in Church services back then in most any church. When we had revival boy did we have revival. It would sometimes last 4 or 5 weeks. It would start at one church this week and move to another church nextweek and on and on. The thing eople today would find strange is everyone in the community regardless of their denomination would attend the revival services at all the churches. Man those were the days. I miss them.

Sartrian -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 9:48:37 PM)
quote: So would you get too upset if the porn shop or crack house down the street burned down? Knowing the Jewish opinion of hogs (esp at that time) it would be looked at similarly. If somebody set a porn store on fire, I'd be very upset! A hardworking businessperson, losing their storefront and goods, just because somebody decided to make a moral judgement against them-- that's incredibly sad. And comparing crack to pork seems like a non sequitur, especially considering that Christians apparently are exempt from the dietary restrictions of the Tanakh. So if Jesus knew that Christians were going to exempt themselves from the dietary restrictions of the Tanakh, then he drove the demons into a man's livelihood for no good reason, destroying his means of providing for himself and probably his family, that seems incredibly needless and cruel. quote: Swine were very important in the worship of zeus/jupiter and certainly were not eaten by Jews. This "poor guy" was making $$ from the idol industry, an abomination to Jesus and all Jews. So if Jesus hated swine so much, why is ham a Christmas food? Or less flippantly, why are Christians allowed to eat pork at all? quote: Well human verses pigs, which would you choose? Do you understand that are Spiritual realties beyond you? God is always right, remember that. Well, if I were omnipotent and needed to kick some demons out of a guy, I'd force them to leave the Demoniac and cause them to cease to exist, rather then a strange exorcism that caused them to destroy a man's herds. One man gets healed, another man losed his means of providing for himself.

Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 10:03:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sartrian quote: So would you get too upset if the porn shop or crack house down the street burned down? Knowing the Jewish opinion of hogs (esp at that time) it would be looked at similarly. If somebody set a porn store on fire, I'd be very upset! A hardworking businessperson, losing their storefront and goods, just because somebody decided to make a moral judgement against them-- that's incredibly sad. And comparing crack to pork seems like a non sequitur, especially considering that Christians apparently are exempt from the dietary restrictions of the Tanakh. So if Jesus knew that Christians were going to exempt themselves from the dietary restrictions of the Tanakh, then he drove the demons into a man's livelihood for no good reason, destroying his means of providing for himself and probably his family, that seems incredibly needless and cruel. quote: Swine were very important in the worship of zeus/jupiter and certainly were not eaten by Jews. This "poor guy" was making $$ from the idol industry, an abomination to Jesus and all Jews. So if Jesus hated swine so much, why is ham a Christmas food? Or less flippantly, why are Christians allowed to eat pork at all? quote: Well human verses pigs, which would you choose? Do you understand that are Spiritual realties beyond you? God is always right, remember that. Well, if I were omnipotent and needed to kick some demons out of a guy, I'd force them to leave the Demoniac and cause them to cease to exist, rather then a strange exorcism that caused them to destroy a man's herds. One man gets healed, another man losed his means of providing for himself. If you will read that portion of Mathew Chapter eight you will find the demons begged Jesus not to destroy them. It was their idea to enter the pigs not Jesus'. He just allowed them to do so. I don't know why. Maybe it was easier that fighting with them since I believe Jesus knew what the pigs would do and knew that would be the end of those demons.

Sartrian -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 10:13:15 PM)
quote: If you will read that portion of Mathew Chapter eight you will find the demons begged Jesus not to destroy them. It was their idea to enter the pigs not Jesus'. He just allowed them to do so. I don't know why. Maybe it was easier that fighting with them since I believe Jesus knew what the pigs would do and knew that would be the end of those demons. Easier than fighting with them? He's supposed to be omnipotent, which means that he can do anything without difficulty.

lightshineon -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/23/2008 10:41:31 PM)
Sorry, If I get TOS I get TOS, one day you will give an account for your attitude before the Lord. quote: ORIGINAL: Sartrian quote: If you will read that portion of Mathew Chapter eight you will find the demons begged Jesus not to destroy them. It was their idea to enter the pigs not Jesus'. He just allowed them to do so. I don't know why. Maybe it was easier that fighting with them since I believe Jesus knew what the pigs would do and knew that would be the end of those demons. Easier than fighting with them? He's supposed to be omnipotent, which means that he can do anything without difficulty.

DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 7:00:34 AM)
Sartrian: I would suggest you are looking at this from entirely the wrong perspective. Why should Jesus not be making moral judgements? He invented morality. As to why christians eat pork/ham etc, that is a discussion for another thread. But it is inconsequential for this discussion as the people involved were not gentile christians. Such a person did not exist yet. They were either very assimilated Jews or were Greek or Roman herders - idoliters. As to removing someone's livelyhood, that seems much less severe than destroying entire cities with fire and brimstone (Sodom, Gommorah) or opening up the ground and entire clans falling into it (rebellion of Korah in Exodus) or washing away Pharaoh's entire army in the Red Sea.

Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 7:14:41 AM)
I thought a lot about this last night. I am counting on Rcjames and some of you others to correct me if I am wrong but.... I do not recall any scripture where a demon was destroyed. God himself did not destroy the king od demons satan. He could have. Jesus could have destroyed those demons also. But would this have not gone against God's word. Are not the demons and all souls condemed to eternity in hell suppose to suffer for ever more for their sins. Would not destroying them be granting them a reprieve from that eternal damnation. In modern day terms would it not be a "mercy killing". I believe to destroy the demons and end their suffering would be a direct conflict woth God's word.

rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 8:46:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sartrian Easier than fighting with them? He's supposed to be omnipotent, which means that he can do anything without difficulty. I think you have a misunderstanding of omnipotent, it does not mean the ability to do anything without difficulty. De you not think it was difficulit for Christ to die on the Cross or for God to put His Son there? Omnipotent means the most powerfull or all powerful, it certainly does nolt mean that there is no other power. Thanks RC

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 10:19:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lightshineon Sorry, If I get TOS I get TOS, one day you will give an account for your attitude before the Lord. Ummmmmmmmm, doesn't everyone?

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 10:35:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 Not really disagreeing with you, except to point out that this was Jesus, not anyone else. Jesus also healed miraculously, but few people believe in modern faith-healing as it is described in the Bible. I see these as being comparable phenomenon. I fully understand that many folks do not believe in demonic possession or even influence, much less the deliverance of these poor souls. But I do, and I do because the New Testament tells us to do this and promises us that we can through the Nave of Jesus. The same applies to healing, it seems really difucult to me to ignore the passage in Jame; (Jas 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. That instruction to the Church is valid in the Church today. The kicker is the "Prayer of Faith" and if the folks doing the prayeing do not believe (Faith) then it is a waste of time. We are also instructied to cast out demons. And Christ even promises (John 14:12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I and my Church choose to believe the New Testament, others can believe or not; that is their perogative. Thanks RC I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. The only physical healing that I've ever seen is on TV-- Benny Hinn and others in that vein. I've talked to some people who had claimed to have had physical healing as well as some claiming demonic possession. It takes not a bunch of knowledge of mental illness and medicine to know that these cases were not miraculous healings or demonic possession. My favorite healing experience is the woman in my Sunday School class years ago that claimed God had healed her of a skin condition caused by an allergic reaction. Sounded very impressive, except she left out the part about two rounds of prescription corticosteroids (most people only need one for this type problem). So, did God heal her? Absolutely. Was it miraculous? Yes, if you consider modern medicine miraculous. BTW, please visit the thread in Current Events about the diabetic girl that died because her parents relied on prayer and faith rather than medical care.

JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 10:44:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. The only physical healing that I've ever seen is on TV-- Benny Hinn and others in that vein. I've talked to some people who had claimed to have had physical healing as well as some claiming demonic possession. It takes not a bunch of knowledge of mental illness and medicine to know that these cases were not miraculous healings or demonic possession. My favorite healing experience is the woman in my Sunday School class years ago that claimed God had healed her of a skin condition caused by an allergic reaction. Sounded very impressive, except she left out the part about two rounds of prescription corticosteroids (most people only need one for this type problem). So, did God heal her? Absolutely. Was it miraculous? Yes, if you consider modern medicine miraculous. BTW, please visit the thread in Current Events about the diabetic girl that died because her parents relied on prayer and faith rather than medical care. Cow, I'm not what most folks would classify as a Charismatic. I'm more of the stuffy old Southern Baptist type and I think that most of the TV preachers are modern versions of Elmer Gentry, but I find your post very sad and surprising. Your version of Christianity sounds like God provided salvation through Jesus, kick-started the early Church, then went off on vacation until time to close the final curtain on the earth. What a boring religion to have no power but loads of disbelief in the present day supernatural power of God through prayer and belief.

rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 10:54:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. I will keep thr first part short since there is a thread on physical healing already running and this one is about demonic possession. So since you have never seem physical healing, do you really discount it, and negate what Scripture says about it? Have you ever seen God or Jesus? So how can you believe in them if you haven't? Demonic posession is real and present in today's would and Christians through the Name of Jesus and the Power of the Holy Ghost can cast them out of the poor souls they inhabit. Thsnks RC

DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 11:21:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. Well, you need to go to other meetings. I have been physically healed (broken arm, appendicitis and many more) andhave prayed for others for physical healing. I have been used to grow out legs and arms, very visible manifestations. I have cast demons out of people, some needed demons cast out before they could properly repent and get saved. This is all real. Too bad you have not been around the real thing.

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 11:42:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rcjames quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. I will keep thr first part short since there is a thread on physical healing already running and this one is about demonic possession. So since you have never seem physical healing, do you really discount it, and negate what Scripture says about it? Have you ever seen God or Jesus? So how can you believe in them if you haven't? Demonic posession is real and present in today's would and Christians through the Name of Jesus and the Power of the Holy Ghost can cast them out of the poor souls they inhabit. Thsnks RC I've seen the power of Christ and God in people's lives, so that's not the issue. God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me. In the first century miracles would have been required to convince people of Christ's supernatural power. I don't negate scripture, but I do put in historical context.

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 11:46:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 I've been to thousands of services, laying on of hands, et al and have never seen anything but spiritual (not physical) healing. Well, you need to go to other meetings. I have been physically healed (broken arm, appendicitis and many more) andhave prayed for others for physical healing. I have been used to grow out legs and arms, very visible manifestations. I have cast demons out of people, some needed demons cast out before they could properly repent and get saved. This is all real. Too bad you have not been around the real thing. Riiiiiiiiight. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 12:05:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 ...God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me... It's not about convincing anyone. When your 5 year-old or your beloved wife or dear mother is in extreme pain or danger, one hardly thinks in terms of a Vegas magic act when they pour out their heart to God for His miraculous intervention. I hope you never find yourself there but, if you live and love enough, I suspect you will.

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 2:02:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 ...God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me... It's not about convincing anyone. When your 5 year-old or your beloved wife or dear mother is in extreme pain or danger, one hardly thinks in terms of a Vegas magic act when they pour out their heart to God for His miraculous intervention. I hope you never find yourself there but, if you live and love enough, I suspect you will. Dude, what makes you think I've lived a charmed life????????? I'm more of a "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" type. I'll take a healed spirit over a healed body every time.

Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 2:07:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 ...God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me... It's not about convincing anyone. When your 5 year-old or your beloved wife or dear mother is in extreme pain or danger, one hardly thinks in terms of a Vegas magic act when they pour out their heart to God for His miraculous intervention. I hope you never find yourself there but, if you live and love enough, I suspect you will. Dude, what makes you think I've lived a charmed life????????? I'm more of a "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" type. I'll take a healed spirit over a healed body every time. If I can only have one then yes. However who heals the spirit. If you say God and you really believe that how can you not believe he heals the body also? It seems to me that healing the spirit would be much harder.

JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 2:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 ...God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me... It's not about convincing anyone. When your 5 year-old or your beloved wife or dear mother is in extreme pain or danger, one hardly thinks in terms of a Vegas magic act when they pour out their heart to God for His miraculous intervention. I hope you never find yourself there but, if you live and love enough, I suspect you will. Dude, what makes you think I've lived a charmed life????????? I'm more of a "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" type. I'll take a healed spirit over a healed body every time. If I can only have one then yes. However who heals the spirit. If you say God and you really believe that how can you not believe he heals the body also? It seems to me that healing the spirit would be much harder. What Sam said! If you are continually living with and in need of healing for a sick spirit, my only question is, "WHY?" I'll admit that when I came to Jesus I was a mess in a lot of ways but somewhere along the line my body has gone downhill while my spirit has grown in strength and vitality. Seems that I remember Paul commenting on a similar situation in his life...

cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/24/2008 3:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: Qtman quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 ...God doesn't have to do a Vegas magic act to convince me... It's not about convincing anyone. When your 5 year-old or your beloved wife or dear mother is in extreme pain or danger, one hardly thinks in terms of a Vegas magic act when they pour out their heart to God for His miraculous intervention. I hope you never find yourself there but, if you live and love enough, I suspect you will. Dude, what makes you think I've lived a charmed life????????? I'm more of a "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" type. I'll take a healed spirit over a healed body every time. If I can only have one then yes. However who heals the spirit. If you say God and you really believe that how can you not believe he heals the body also? It seems to me that healing the spirit would be much harder. What Sam said! If you are continually living with and in need of healing for a sick spirit, my only question is, "WHY?" I'll admit that when I came to Jesus I was a mess in a lot of ways but somewhere along the line my body has gone downhill while my spirit has grown in strength and vitality. Seems that I remember Paul commenting on a similar situation in his life... Well, I'm not constantly in need of spiritual healing, I was speaking of many instances involving many people. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It seems contradictory that you are going downhill physically if your faith in healing is so great. Same for Paul.

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