RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (Full Version)

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Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/30/2008 2:22:03 PM)

I agree with Rcjames and Jimbo. Although satan is the prince of the demonic world there are several scriptural references that indicate more than one demon.



Memaw. -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/30/2008 2:23:51 PM)

I don't understand Jude 1:6 though.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/30/2008 4:28:43 PM)

Considering the bulk of scripture on the topic, Jude 1:6 is a bit confusing to me also. The NIV renders it:

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Perhaps, this means that certain leaders in high positions in heaven that rebelled have been locked away until Judgment Day. Remember again "Legion" in Luke 8:31 that begged not to be commanded to go away into the abyss but to be cast into the swine. That abyss may be the place where those confined rebellious leaders are.



lightshineon -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/30/2008 9:53:24 PM)

Cow you do not believe in demons? Ever watch " SuperNanny"?



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (4/30/2008 11:47:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Cow you do not believe in demons? Ever watch " SuperNanny"?

Now that you mention it, Fox News comes to mind.



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 12:46:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

The question is not where the Apostles got their authority, but where you (or anyone else alive today) got the authority.

Mark 16.17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

Please notice this is the FIRST sign listed for all believers.


Please also note that the verses 9-20 are not found in the oldest known manuscripts.



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:05:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Wait... allow me to jump in.. what exactly is cow saying?


My take on the "gift" of being able to cast out demons was that it was given to the Apostles by Jesus. I don't read scripture as stating the Apostles or Christ passed it on to another generation. Therefore, God being logical, would not have ended that gift (casting out demons) for no reason nor would he have left us without defense against evil. The idea that demon possession still exists in the same manner as 2000 years ago is based on church tradition, inference and assumption rather than clear scripture, IMHO.

So my fellow posters are worried I am headed for Sheol in a handbasket.[sm=fireanger.gif]

Cow, show where demon possession ever changed in scripture. You cannot. Paul, who was not one of the original 12, cast out demons.

Just because you personally haven't experienced/seen something doesn't mean it isn't real - that's akin to a 3 year-old thinking he's invisible because his eyes are closed and covered by his hands.

I'm somewhat amused that you are of the opinion that God is logical if, by that, you think it's on par with human logic. That's sort of like an ant, seeing the industry of man, assuming that man is just a bug, two-legged ant in his motivation, reasoning, and purpose.

And the ant isn't far off in his assessment.[8|] Paul, as you point out, was not one of the twelve. But he received the gospel through special revelation Galations 1:12-12.



DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 6:44:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.

According to Jude 1:6 (KJV)
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This is speaking of fallen angels (demons) right?
How then can they be locked up yet be running free?

Could it be that there is only one "demon" and that is satan himself?
First off, demons and fallen angels are NOT the same thing. Different greek words are used to describe angels and the 2 grades of what we call demons. Fallen angels are more like the "principalities and powers" Paul wrote about, using similar words to that describing God's angels.

Demons do not have bodies, angels do have bodies. satan as an angel, and as such would have a body. We see the demoniac with the "legion" where the demonic entities could not stand to be disembodied and prefered being in pigs to being uncovered. We never see that from angels of any stripe.



DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 6:47:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:

Mark 16.17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Please also note that the verses 9-20 are not found in the oldest known manuscripts.
I understand that. Whether or not it was in the original manuscript, this text shows up early enough to be an accurate picture of what was believed and practiced in the church in the 3rd and 4th centuries.



rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 9:34:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:

Mark 16.17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Please also note that the verses 9-20 are not found in the oldest known manuscripts.
centuries.


Don't you just love it, Scripture says something someone disagrees with and WALLA the passage is not suppose to be there. JJJJEEEEEEEZZZZZ


Thsnks
RC



Memaw. -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 10:26:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.

According to Jude 1:6 (KJV)
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This is speaking of fallen angels (demons) right?
How then can they be locked up yet be running free?

Could it be that there is only one "demon" and that is satan himself?
First off, demons and fallen angels are NOT the same thing. Different greek words are used to describe angels and the 2 grades of what we call demons. Fallen angels are more like the "principalities and powers" Paul wrote about, using similar words to that describing God's angels.

Demons do not have bodies, angels do have bodies. satan as an angel, and as such would have a body. We see the demoniac with the "legion" where the demonic entities could not stand to be disembodied and prefered being in pigs to being uncovered. We never see that from angels of any stripe.


So, what are demons if they are not fallen angels?
Where did they come from?

I have heard some teachings (not that I believe them) that demons came from the "pre-Adamite civilization".


As far as I know, there are only two instances in the Bible where satan has "attacked" someone.
One is with Job, and the other is with Peter.
Both times he approached the throne to seek permission.
(If there are other times, I don't remember them right now).

If demons are not fallen angels, then they have not sought permission from God to oppress or possess or otherwise bother or harass any of Gods' children and as such are acting in an "unlawful" way and have no authority over us.

Can someone explain all this to me?



DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 12:42:04 PM)

quote:

So, what are demons if they are not fallen angels?
Where did they come from?
Apparently unimportant. Scripture only refers to their existance, something about their operation and how to get rid of them. Nothing about where they came from or what exactly they are.

As I said before, the way they operate seems to be at variance with them being angels. I guess we will find out when we get upstairs.....



rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 12:53:26 PM)

I have always found this passage interesting;

(Luk 9:49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

(Luk 9:50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Now here was someone who was not a potential Apostle, not even a believre, but was casting out devils in the Name of Jesus.

Thanks
RC



JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 12:56:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I have always found this passage interesting;

(Luk 9:49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

(Luk 9:50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Now here was someone who was not a potential Apostle, not even a believre, but was casting out devils in the Name of Jesus.

Thanks
RC

RC, good verse, but I wouldn't dismiss them as unbelievers because other men identified as unbelievers who tried to cast out demons in Jesus name were attacked by them savagely. In Acts, I think it was.



rcjames -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:04:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
RC, good verse, but I wouldn't dismiss them as unbelievers because other men identified as unbelievers who tried to cast out demons in Jesus name were attacked by them savagely. In Acts, I think it was.


I will go along with that Jimbo, maybe the diciples were like Cow and thought that only diciples had the authority, and found out otherwise.

Thanks
RC



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:08:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:

Mark 16.17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Please also note that the verses 9-20 are not found in the oldest known manuscripts.
centuries.


Don't you just love it, Scripture says something someone disagrees with and WALLA the passage is not suppose to be there. JJJJEEEEEEEZZZZZ


Thsnks
RC

It's that the passage really wasn't there in the oldest known manuscripts. I doubt you'll mention this next time you use this passage in a sermon. This debate has been around awhile. If you want to research it I give you a link or two. Obviously, Biblical inerrants will see it as you do, while others, like me, see it as validation of human footprints that muddy up things at times.



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:24:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I have always found this passage interesting;

(Luk 9:49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

(Luk 9:50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Now here was someone who was not a potential Apostle, not even a believre, but was casting out devils in the Name of Jesus.

Thanks
RC

Then what does it say about Christ if nonbelievers can cast out demons in the Lord's name? Again, it's a David Copperfield type of view of spiritual warfare that simply makes no sense. Say the "magic word" and poof. Christ's response seemed rather nonchalant.



earthless -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:30:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

Then what does it say about Christ if nonbelievers can cast out demons in the Lord's name?


We could argue that it actually says more about the demonic. Why wouldn't they cooperate with someone they know is theirs?



lightshineon -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 1:52:01 PM)

Well, some think I am already nuts, so I will go for broke. I have seen demons. Some think they cannot manifest, they do in deformed ways. No mental problems, no drugs. I have some very bizzare stories, but for some reason things like this do not frighten me. I know I will be made fun of or told scripture does not back it up. Thtough scripture tells there is a mystery to evil, I can also tell if someone is pocessed, and not just mentally ill. I know it is an experience based events, but I have witnessess to these things. I also see angels, or have, so I dont know. I know many will say I am lying or taking LSD, or mentally ill, or worse a TBN fan, not Biblicaly literate. I am very balanced in the word. But just so you know, I do not talk of the devil experiences much, because Jesus made the demons be quite scripture, because they are not used to promote the kingdom.



JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 2:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
It's that the passage really wasn't there in the oldest known manuscripts. I doubt you'll mention this next time you use this passage in a sermon. This debate has been around awhile. If you want to research it I give you a link or two. Obviously, Biblical inerrants will see it as you do, while others, like me, see it as validation of human footprints that muddy up things at times.

Cow, FWIW, I agree with you on the passage in Mark being less than reliable. But there is ample evidence in the rest of the NT to indicate to me that demonic possession is still a danger and that believers (redeemed and Holy Spirit indwelt) have the authority in Jesus' name to cast them out.

And I'm not of the opinion that all mental illness or even most of it is demonic activity.



DaveW -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 3:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well, some think I am already nuts, so I will go for broke. I have seen demons.
It seems some people do have that ability. I have spoken to several over the years. Some WERE looney, but some were not as well. From the descriptions, I am just as glad I cannot see them.



Qtman -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 3:51:04 PM)

quote:

As far as I know, there are only two instances in the Bible where satan has "attacked" someone.
One is with Job, and the other is with Peter.
Both times he approached the throne to seek permission.
(If there are other times, I don't remember them right now).


This is a slant on scripture I don't think I have ever heard. I will have to read the account of Peter again my memory is not what it used to be. But with Job the devil did not approach the throne to get permission to attack Job. It was more like he issued God a challenge. Satan told God if he thought Job was such a devout and loyal servant to remove the hedge He had around him so the devil could get at him. Satan thought he could attack Job and make him turn from God. God just sorta stepped back and said give it your best shot. My servant cannot be swayed. This is a long way from Satan seeking permission.



cow451 -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 5:22:01 PM)

Well, here's the evidence that has converted me to a demon-possession believer. I've obviously been wrong about everything. This poor Wisconsin woman had to defend herself against her own demon-possessed daughter. And the police and DA are now going to persecute her. So sad. LINK



Memaw. -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 5:34:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

quote:

As far as I know, there are only two instances in the Bible where satan has "attacked" someone.
One is with Job, and the other is with Peter.
Both times he approached the throne to seek permission.
(If there are other times, I don't remember them right now).


This is a slant on scripture I don't think I have ever heard. I will have to read the account of Peter again my memory is not what it used to be. But with Job the devil did not approach the throne to get permission to attack Job. It was more like he issued God a challenge. Satan told God if he thought Job was such a devout and loyal servant to remove the hedge He had around him so the devil could get at him. Satan thought he could attack Job and make him turn from God. God just sorta stepped back and said give it your best shot. My servant cannot be swayed. This is a long way from Satan seeking permission.



Luke 22 KJV
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



JimboFletch -> RE: A Case of Demonic Possession (5/1/2008 5:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

Well, here's the evidence that has converted me to a demon-possession believer. I've obviously been wrong about everything. This poor Wisconsin woman had to defend herself against her own demon-possessed daughter. And the police and DA are now going to persecute her. So sad.

You disappoint me.

I would not make fun of demons because of something obviously stupid like that - nor stand close to anyone who does.

Cow, a rule of thumb for you: Just because there are counterfeits doesn't mean there isn't the real deal somewhere. Unbelievers that I talk with quite often make fun of us by pointing out the obvious frauds rather than discussing the genuine article.



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