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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/6/2008 7:08:13 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Cow,
If you don't want to respond, that is fine. No skin off my back, nothing will change for me nor detract from what is going on around me. But after 6 pages of discussion we finally got the meat of what many here did not understand where you were coming from.
But based on what you have shared, you do not agree with the above. Isn't free-will grand? 
Well, your post didn't indicate a desire beyond lecturing/ranting. Humanity's footprints are all over the Bible, meaning we don't have access to any original transcripts. however, the internal validity argument is relevant and, of the 66 books that men chose as canon are remarkably consistent. However these writings were inspired, not written, by God. Additionally, the compilation of those books was man-driven with inspiration a presumption.
Scriptures were written to people living over 1900 years ago and had to make sense to them. Otherwise there would be no reason to preserve them with such great care. And, the Bible comes to a close 1900 years ago with no explanation as to why.
It is evident to me that the Bible makes less sense when interpreted "literally" (which is a misstatement IMO). Example, the world is not merely 6000 years old. While archeology is often consistent with the Bible, there is no science to support a young earth. Therefore, if Genesis is not literally accurate do we throw it out? Do we throw everything else out because of all-or-nothing thinking? I don't.
Well, that should give you some idea. Perhaps God wants us to struggle with interpretation. Maybe we can't handle knowing all the answers. I think of the lesson in the Tower of Babel. As a species we don't handle power wisely.
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Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/6/2008 7:16:30 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 4622
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It is evident to me that the Bible makes less sense when interpreted "literally" (which is a misstatement IMO). Example, the world is not merely 6000 years old. While archeology is often consistent with the Bible, there is no science to support a young earth. Therefore, if Genesis is not literally accurate do we throw it out? Do we throw everything else out because of all-or-nothing thinking? I don't.
Well, that should give you some idea. Perhaps God wants us to struggle with interpretation. Maybe we can't handle knowing all the answers. I think of the lesson in the Tower of Babel. As a species we don't handle power wisely.
And there is always the possibility that you dismiss Scripture because it does not say what you want it to say.
Alsos that is twice you have said there is a Biblical claim of earth's age to be six thousand years. Would you please tell us where you think it says that?
Thanks
RC
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/6/2008 7:21:38 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4044
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From: where thawing pigeons reside...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Well, your post didn't indicate a desire beyond lecturing/ranting.
Perhaps that is your bias speaking. I re-read my reply to you five separate times and yes you can see the preacher/pastor in me - but it is clear and concise to the subject at hand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Humanity's footprints are all over the Bible, meaning we don't have access to any original transcripts. however, the internal validity argument is relevant and, of the 66 books that men chose as canon are remarkably consistent. However these writings were inspired, not written, by God. Additionally, the compilation of those books was man-driven with inspiration a presumption.
We are now delving into a topic that is worthy of its own thread and it has been more than hashed out on these very forums.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Scriptures were written to people living over 1900 years ago and had to make sense to them. Otherwise there would be no reason to preserve them with such great care. And, the Bible comes to a close 1900 years ago with no explanation as to why.
It is evident to me that the Bible makes less sense when interpreted "literally" (which is a misstatement IMO). Example, the world is not merely 6000 years old. While archeology is often consistent with the Bible, there is no science to support a young earth.
Ummmm.... just an FYI - the Bible is not absolute in the young earth panel of thought and many Christians do not adhere to a 6,000 year creation story. Just an FYI.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Therefore, if Genesis is not literally accurate do we throw it out? Do we throw everything else out because of all-or-nothing thinking? I don't.
You're failing to see the important of context and proper hermeneutics. Again, this is getting into areas that go way beyond anything this thread's topic is meant to cover.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Well, that should give you some idea. Perhaps God wants us to struggle with interpretation. Maybe we can't handle knowing all the answers. I think of the lesson in the Tower of Babel. As a species we don't handle power wisely.
A valid point, but you're going to an entirely different extreme. You have said here that you do not believe in Satan and the demonic realm yet Jesus Himself spoke on him and those in that realm many times and in clear absolute terms. As did the apostle Paul and the disciples - something that brings us back full circle to what I shared earlier - it is dishonest to oneself to pick and choose what we will claim is actually God's Word and what is not within the context of Scripture.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/6/2008 9:36:14 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3315
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Cow serious question are you a man or woman? I know you have sports avatar, but a cow, a bovine is female. This is not a crude attempt at humor at your expense, just do not want to call you, a he,when you are a she. I have been called Sir several times last week. Well back to subject, I do not believe the devil with a red suit an pitch fork, but there is demonic activity, We wrestle against it according to Paul. People can be and are pocessed. If you believe in a " satan", how do you describe the new satan?
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Something tells me cow is not married.
But getting back to the actual meat of the discussion...
Cow - do you believe Satan exists/is real?
Actually I am and I have nice in-laws. I believe Satan exists, but not the Bogeyman Satan of fundamentalists.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/7/2008 1:39:06 AM
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Kath
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Ok, please lets just move on from the misunderstanding about the mother in law thing. Thanks!
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 9:40:55 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It is evident to me that the Bible makes less sense when interpreted "literally" (which is a misstatement IMO). Example, the world is not merely 6000 years old. While archeology is often consistent with the Bible, there is no science to support a young earth. Therefore, if Genesis is not literally accurate do we throw it out? Do we throw everything else out because of all-or-nothing thinking? I don't.
Well, that should give you some idea. Perhaps God wants us to struggle with interpretation. Maybe we can't handle knowing all the answers. I think of the lesson in the Tower of Babel. As a species we don't handle power wisely.
And there is always the possibility that you dismiss Scripture because it does not say what you want it to say.
Alsos that is twice you have said there is a Biblical claim of earth's age to be six thousand years. Would you please tell us where you think it says that?
Thanks
RC
Of course it's possible. But it could just as well work the other way. A "literalist" interpretation could appeal to you because it fits the approach to life that you might have anyway.
I don't think it says that (the earth being 6,000 years old), but it's a common fundamentalist belief. If you check out the Science and Origins forum you will notice that Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is rampant among posters. So, many fundamentalists would say that you don't believe in Biblical inerrancy and don't hold to a "literal" interpretation.
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Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 9:48:19 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4044
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From: where thawing pigeons reside...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Of course it's possible. But it could just as well work the other way. A "literalist" interpretation could appeal to you because it fits the approach to life that you might have anyway.
Just like any other piece of writ - context is king and hermeneutics is the only honest approach to any piece of writ. And I don't see how rightly dividing Scripture (or any other book) could appeal to someone who did not want it to be, me a former atheist.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I don't think it says that (the earth being 6,000 years old), but it's a common fundamentalist belief. If you check out the Science and Origins forum you will notice that Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is rampant among posters. So, many fundamentalists would say that you don't believe in Biblical inerrancy and don't hold to a "literal" interpretation.
Regardless, the litmus test for what is actually in the Bible and or a core essential is the Bible itself. People can say it is important, but the book says otherwise.
It's akin to a math professor saying 2+2=19 but the math book says otherwise.
I don't see how you can choose what to believe and what not to believe if you claim to be a Christian that says the Bible is the Word of God.
Scripture interprets Scripture.
BUT - we're really off topic now.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 9:50:39 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3523
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Cow serious question are you a man or woman? I know you have sports avatar, but a cow, a bovine is female. I do not believe the devil with a red suit an pitch fork, but there is demonic activity, We wrestle against it according to Paul. People can be and are pocessed. If you believe in a " satan", how do you describe the new satan?
The story re: the "cow" is long and boring and one of those things that takes a life of it's own.
When it comes down to it, we may not disagree as much in practical terms. Some of this may be semantics. I do believe people sometimes give themselves over to evil in whole or in part. The 2,000 year-old descriptions in the Bible are simplistic and probably the way people in those times could understand.
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Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 9:53:17 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3523
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I don't see how you can choose what to believe and what not to believe if you claim to be a Christian that says the Bible is the Word of God.
But you are doing it every time you interpret scripture. Everyone does.
_____________________________
Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 10:01:18 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4044
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where thawing pigeons reside...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I don't see how you can choose what to believe and what not to believe if you claim to be a Christian that says the Bible is the Word of God.
But you are doing it every time you interpret scripture. Everyone does.
Again, context is key. The Bible is not a "well, that's just your interpretation........." issue. The core essentials of Christianity, what makes it Christianity and not something else, are plainly laid out all throughout the context of its 66 books.
Secondary issues do exist, yes. But the core of what makes our belief system what it is are cemented in its writings.
In a perfect world, every believer would dutifully study the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15) in prayerful dependence upon the Holy Spirit’s illumination.
But we know this is not a perfect world. Not everyone who possesses the Holy Spirit actually listens to the Holy Spirit. There are Christians who grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30).
Some reasons for this are also unbelief, lack of training, poor hermeneutics, ignorance of the whole Word of God, selfishness and pride, failure to mature, and undue emphasis on tradition.
I like how S. Michael Houdmann puts it:
quote:
On the essentials, the Bible is abundantly clear. There is nothing ambiguous about the deity of Christ, the reality of heaven and hell, and salvation by grace through faith.
On some issues of less import, however, the teaching of Scripture is less clear, and this naturally leads to different interpretations. For example, we have no direct biblical command governing the frequency of communion or the structure of church government or the style of music to use. Honest, sincere Christians can have differing interpretations of the passages concerning these peripheral issues.
The important thing is to be dogmatic where Scripture is and to avoid being dogmatic where Scripture is not.
Churches should strive to follow the model left us by the early church in Jerusalem: “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 2:42).
There was unity in the early church because they were steadfast in the apostles’ doctrine. There will be unity in the church again when we get back to the apostles’ doctrine and forego the other doctrines, fads, and gimmicks that have crept in.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/8/2008 8:00:46 PM
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Kath
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We are off topic and need to return to it.
Thanks
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/9/2008 10:35:17 AM
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Marcus.
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The entire article was available off of the link I provided in OP when I posted it. They must have archived it already.
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RE: A Case of Demonic Possession - 5/9/2008 10:43:09 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3523
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
The entire article was available off of the link I provided in OP when I posted it. They must have archived it already.
I just checked it and it remains archived. maybe it's available from another source.
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Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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