RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ???

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davelinde -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/22/2008 11:01:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sue244 Just because the church may be part of the mainstream denominations such as, Methodist, Presbetrian, Baptist, etc. doesn't mean that they are traditional in the sense of singing hymns and what not. All I was saying is that churches shouldn't pretened that they are being modern to reach my generation when it seems like my generation is going for the old school stuff like candels and litergy, at least that what it seems like when looking at the emergent church. All I was saying is that the people I talk to don't really care for the concert type atmospher at churches, yet finding one that isn't like that is hard. Did you see me say modern churches are lazy in my post? Got it. I guess even the mainline denoms have adopted a few seeker type things to one degree or another. A lot of this is about matters of degree. I had not seen the "concert atmosphere" as being that prevalent, but then again - I have not visited that many churches in that many areas, so I don't have a basis to say. I don't equate seeker styled to emergent, since I understand that emergent has a lot more baggage and for this post (as already noted) the description of being basically aligned with SBC SoF would mean that church was not emergent. I guess I would have aligned some of the trends with preferences found in younger people - so I'll accept your point that this is not universally so. I'd also say that the more casual worship is also aimed at parents with young kids. The thinking being that if church is like a library or museum the parents may not feel OK trying to keep their kids in line but if it's a bit more concert like a boisterous child does not stick out. And... OK - you did not equate modern and lazy in your responses, you observations were in a different direction. I was reacting to the title of the thread for that. I guess a conclusion could boil down to YMMV

sue244 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/22/2008 12:21:34 PM)
I wasn't equating emergent with seeker senstive. Just that emergent which seems so popluar with my age group, at least from my readings is almost the opposit as far as not being the modern church. dumb question but what does YMMV mean?

davelinde -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/22/2008 6:19:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sue244 ...question but what does YMMV mean? Your Mileage May Vary. Kind of the catch-all expression for until you drive it you don't know what it will do.

Dancre -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/22/2008 7:25:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BarryLee My entire life has been spent in traditional conservative Southern Baptist churches. So, I was very excited when a local Southern Baptist minister started a new church with a casual modern worship style. This includes extensive use of audio visual aids, a rock band, casual clothing, drama presentations, beverages in the sanctuary, etc. Now, the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, but the delivery is a little different. As I said at first I was very excited, but after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church. Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church, but it turned into long term Christians just getting lazy and disrespectful in church. Has anyone else experienced this in other “modern” churches? So you think it's ok to judge every 'modern' church based on a few rude people? Sorry, kiddo, but this happens in EVERY church in EVERY denomination. [&o] I've been to traditional churches and saw folks texting others with the cell phone, reading books, playing with video games, and wearing jeans to church. This happens everywhere, not just in a 'modern' church. It's known as inconsiderate people. It happens, get used to it. Folks just don't care about church anymore. So I myself make it a habbit to turn off the phone, wear nice clothes and try to set an example. Now in my old church in ST. Lous, they would put up a sign on the screen asking folks to turn off the cell phones. And I'm not for sure why you feel that folks "Shake their booties to the music' is wrong. King DAvid did this all the time. There's nothing wrong with it. It's called worship. quote: In our traditional service we have had women come in with white fitted shirts and no bra. Low cut with pushup bras. People where short shorts and sake their booties as you say and other "out there stuff". Aren't you just shocked by what women wear now adays??? [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif] And to church!! We didn't do that in MY generation. sigh . . . quote: Admittedly, I have very little respect for the message of Joel Osteen and Rick Warren. However, I will ask that we refrain from putting down their constituents, because they are just trying to follow Jesus... like we all are. Careful, Fur. Talk like that will make you a heretic, like me. :) kim

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/23/2008 2:47:41 AM)
Kim... I got labled as a heretic a loooooooong time ago... right about when I started defending my ministry, I think. But it's always nice to meet another one. quote: Yep I was talking to you! Again great post!!! You and I appear to agree on many points. Thanks P31W... that is a rarity to hear. I usually find myself on the short end of the stick in most discussions, so finding someone that agrees with me is a treat. quote: want to warn you folks of something. At one time "Amazing Grace" was a "contempory" song. At one time our "traditional services" were considered contempory. At one time what a man or woman wore to Chruch (dresses that show ANY leg and a man without a suite and tie) was considered "sinful". A priest I know told me the same thing this way... "everything now done in church was at one point considered heretical. That is why we have so many denominations." quote: When it comes to Chruch "styles" do change. They change with every generation. Music taste Change and what one person finds beautiful and bring them into a state of true worship may bring another to tears becaue they simply can't stand the beat, tempo, understand the termonology and so on. ding! +1up ding! The thing that often gets lost is that Ravers are a completely different culture than Yuppies... just as much as Americans are a completely different culture than Africans. Just like it isn't reasonable to expect Africans to learn Victorian era hymns to be "acceptable to God", we need to allow people to worship God in the way that is best for them. Some younger people have difficulty connecting with accapela hymns, some old people have difficulty connecting with syncopated lyrics. Neither is wrong, they are different. Myself, I think God has got a little Gothic flair to Him... but that is just me. quote: As long as the doctrine is sound we need to pray for them. Absolutely... there are safe boundaries for everything. Just like the Africans mentioned earlier can't make idols (even though it is part of their culture), the Ravers can't use drugs, and the goths can't use self-mutilation. Other than that, go for it. Adam

SD456 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/23/2008 4:42:06 PM)
quote: A priest I know told me the same thing this way... "everything now done in church was at one point considered heretical. That is why we have so many denominations So true. In fact, some of the hymns that some on these threads love so much and lament of their not being sung enough were considered heretical by the church of the day back then - like the salvation army hymns that were written to pub tunes. Ohhh, the 'traditional' church of that day truly hated them. And now we love them.

earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/24/2008 2:05:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 Ohhh, the 'traditional' church of that day truly hated them. And now we love them. Not me, I only sing to and listen to praise & worship songs from the second century. [8D] [:D]

stateofgrace -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/24/2008 3:44:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 Ohhh, the 'traditional' church of that day truly hated them. And now we love them. Not me, I only sing to and listen to praise & worship songs from the second century. [8D] [:D] LOL, finally someone who is more strict than Bob Jones University on that issue!

kernsfamily -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 9:29:20 AM)
I think our church is a nice "happy medium" between being a "modern" church....and a "traditional" one... Our music is certainly "contemporary"....we sing NEW songs, as well as old ones...we have a full choir (600 or so in each of the services), along with a guy who plays great electric guitar. The "theology" is as "rock solid" and "biblically sound" as you'll find anywhere. Though, we do implement two "iMag" screens (the church seats 7000, so when sitting in the upper balcony, the pastor appears very small....so, the screens help)....though, while main passages do appear on the screen, most everyone does bring a bible (which is very necessary for sunday school class, as well) I guess you could call us a "traditional seeker sensitive" church....traditional enough for most "traditional" churchgoers.....but, contemporary enough that the "seekers" do not feel "left out" or "out of place" because they don't know what's going on...or feel "unwelcome"... One thing that is mentioned by our Pastor, and other ministers within the church....at our church, there is an "unwritten rule" that while planning something, or doing whatever for the church, that we do not use the phrase "Because we've always done it that way" as a reason for doing something....or not doing something....It is primarily because of that, that we are much more of an "independent" church, than a "traditional" Southern Baptist church (we are SBC, by the way)....but, we've seen too many churches blindly follow what's ALWAYS been done in the past as a pattern of what to do with church.....just because that's what "Southern Baptists" have always done....and, we are thankful, that our church "goes it's own way" on alot of things.... Want a "traditional" good "old fashioned" church? My wife tells me of her experiences going to church in far south Louisiana.....A staunchly conservative Baptist church...."people of color" were NOT welcome to be "visitors", much less members....those who were unfortunate enough to make their way there on Sunday morning, were greeted at the door with a stern "Church is full today" or "Iam sure you'll find _____ church down the road a bit more to your liking".....and it was something that the members of the church found great "pride" in. That they didn't have any of "THEM" in their church. And, she's only 43 years old. When I think of people wanting to go back to the "old way" of doing church......I always think of things like that.

Little_1 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 9:33:53 AM)
I've never been in a church with 600 people in it at the same time let alone a choir of 600. Over in the UK - our churches are much smaller. The most that would attend the church I attend is about 125 (and that would be a special event).

JimboFletch -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 9:39:24 AM)
quote: ...along with a guy who plays great electric guitar... Sorry to interrupt, but there is no such thing. Acoustic, maybe. Electric, no. Please continue. [;)]

JimboFletch -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 9:43:32 AM)
quote: Want a "traditional" good "old fashioned" church? My wife tells me of her experiences going to church in far south Louisiana.....A staunchly conservative Baptist church...."people of color" were NOT welcome to be "visitors", much less members....those who were unfortunate enough to make their way there on Sunday morning, were greeted at the door with a stern "Church is full today" or "Iam sure you'll find _____ church down the road a bit more to your liking".....and it was something that the members of the church found great "pride" in. That they didn't have any of "THEM" in their church. And, she's only 43 years old. Interesting... I'm a member of a conservative Baptist church and we have an ethnically and racially diverse congregation and membership where all are welcome. I guess us being in far south Alabama makes the difference. [shrugs]

kernsfamily -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 10:16:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Little_1 I've never been in a church with 600 people in it at the same time let alone a choir of 600. Over in the UK - our churches are much smaller. The most that would attend the church I attend is about 125 (and that would be a special event). Well, very, very few churches are as big as mine....(not that size matters at all....for the most part, it doesn't) It just happens to be located in a very fast growing part of a major metropolitan area....right smack dab in the middle of our "bible belt".... believe me....we didn't purposely "seek out" such a large church....God led us there....

kernsfamily -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 10:20:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: Want a "traditional" good "old fashioned" church? My wife tells me of her experiences going to church in far south Louisiana.....A staunchly conservative Baptist church...."people of color" were NOT welcome to be "visitors", much less members....those who were unfortunate enough to make their way there on Sunday morning, were greeted at the door with a stern "Church is full today" or "Iam sure you'll find _____ church down the road a bit more to your liking".....and it was something that the members of the church found great "pride" in. That they didn't have any of "THEM" in their church. And, she's only 43 years old. Interesting... I'm a member of a conservative Baptist church and we have an ethnically and racially diverse congregation and membership where all are welcome. I guess us being in far south Alabama makes the difference. [shrugs] this was when my wife was a kid...early 1970s.... today, iam sure her church is different now. though, she hasn't been back in many years.

kernsfamily -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 10:21:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ...along with a guy who plays great electric guitar... Sorry to interrupt, but there is no such thing. Acoustic, maybe. Electric, no. Please continue. [;)] ???? I don't understand where you're going with that.... no such thing? hmmmm....

JimboFletch -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 10:41:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kernsfamily quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ...along with a guy who plays great electric guitar... Sorry to interrupt, but there is no such thing. Acoustic, maybe. Electric, no. Please continue. [;)] ???? I don't understand where you're going with that.... no such thing? hmmmm.... Must be my taste in music. I got a similar reaction from a bagpipe and accordion duet when I mentioned my dislike for the combination. [sm=blush.gif]

SD456 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 2:41:16 PM)
quote: Careful, Fur. Talk like that will make you a heretic, like me. :) LOL! Oh, I would have to join that crowd. Been considered that on these threads more than once.

earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 7:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 quote: Careful, Fur. Talk like that will make you a heretic, like me. :) LOL! Oh, I would have to join that crowd. Been considered that on these threads more than once. Same here, sis! [8D] We can all go together to our heretics bar and first round of drinks are on me! [:D]

SD456 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 8:02:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 quote: Careful, Fur. Talk like that will make you a heretic, like me. :) LOL! Oh, I would have to join that crowd. Been considered that on these threads more than once. Same here, sis! [8D] We can all go together to our heretics bar and first round of drinks are on me! [:D] LOL - ok, you've got a deal.

Lycea -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/25/2008 10:43:25 PM)
quote: quote: Want a "traditional" good "old fashioned" church? My wife tells me of her experiences going to church in far south Louisiana.....A staunchly conservative Baptist church...."people of color" were NOT welcome to be "visitors", much less members....those who were unfortunate enough to make their way there on Sunday morning, were greeted at the door with a stern "Church is full today" or "Iam sure you'll find _____ church down the road a bit more to your liking".....and it was something that the members of the church found great "pride" in. That they didn't have any of "THEM" in their church. And, she's only 43 years old. Interesting... I'm a member of a conservative Baptist church and we have an ethnically and racially diverse congregation and membership where all are welcome. I guess us being in far south Alabama makes the difference. [shrugs] I think it depends on the congregation. DH and I were ministering to youth in one (mainline but not SBC) less than ten years ago with the same philosophy in way south Alabama. DH and I left there and went to a different church (SBC) bordering on mini-mega-church with a few people of color. This in an area with more than 50% non-white residents... But I digress, back to contemporary services making for "lazy" Christians. I am not quite sure where the laziness comes in. In my experience in a number of churches, mostly traditional, there has never been a requirement for people to bring their Bibles, that is why there are those handy ones in the backs of the pews with the hymnals. Even hymnals have choruses in them, we've been singing them since the tent revivals and camp meetings of the 1800's, and they've included the popular ones in most hymnals published since. (And if you want to talk about repetitive with little musical value, you should really check some of those "old choruses" out!) As for people wearing casual clothing, I am pretty sure all of the instructions in the New Testament to believers regarding dress were in regard to modesty and simplicity, definitely not "dress up to go to church." I don't care what people wear when they walk in the door, and if they need more clothing, I will happily run next door to my own closet and pull something out for them before I pass judgment on them for being "lazy" no matter how long they have been coming to church. To the use of dance in worship, it is not new, and if anyone argues about dignity, David danced "naked" before the Lord. Need more extravagant and scandalous acts of public worship? How about Mary anointing Jesus feet and wiping it with her hair, or the other woman who came weeping and kissing his feet, washing them with her tears and drying them with her hair. With their HAIR! Scandal! Immodesty! At least that is what the Pharisees would say... Next time you find yourself more concerned with what other people around you are doing during worship than worshiping the Lord yourself...maybe they are not the ones with the problem.

SD456 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/26/2008 12:23:04 AM)
quote: Next time you find yourself more concerned with what other people around you are doing during worship than worshiping the Lord yourself...maybe they are not the ones with the problem. Excellent point, Lycea. And great point about the women who used their hair to dry Jesus' feet. That was considered a VERY intimate gesture - boy people would freak if they saw something like that in public today.

earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/26/2008 7:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 quote: Next time you find yourself more concerned with what other people around you are doing during worship than worshiping the Lord yourself...maybe they are not the ones with the problem. Excellent point, Lycea. And great point about the women who used their hair to dry Jesus' feet. That was considered a VERY intimate gesture - boy people would freak if they saw something like that in public today. lol.. especially if Jesus is not physically in their presence. [8D]

Soxfan -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/26/2008 8:41:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: earthless quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 quote: Next time you find yourself more concerned with what other people around you are doing during worship than worshiping the Lord yourself...maybe they are not the ones with the problem. Excellent point, Lycea. And great point about the women who used their hair to dry Jesus' feet. That was considered a VERY intimate gesture - boy people would freak if they saw something like that in public today. lol.. especially if Jesus is not physically in their presence. [8D] Yeah, but they can always go to a Benny Hinn "Crusade". I hear from Benny that Jesus shows up regularly at those [;)]

earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/26/2008 8:46:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soxfan quote: ORIGINAL: earthless quote: ORIGINAL: SD456 quote: Next time you find yourself more concerned with what other people around you are doing during worship than worshiping the Lord yourself...maybe they are not the ones with the problem. Excellent point, Lycea. And great point about the women who used their hair to dry Jesus' feet. That was considered a VERY intimate gesture - boy people would freak if they saw something like that in public today. lol.. especially if Jesus is not physically in their presence. [8D] Yeah, but they can always go to a Benny Hinn "Crusade". I hear from Benny that Jesus shows up regularly at those [;)] And that the face of God, a literal face (with moving lips, eyes, expressions), used to appear on the side of his church during worship time. He claimed that he had it all on video tape. The tape has never been presented. [:(]

pezdispenser -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/26/2008 9:01:57 AM)
I used to attend a modern church, held at a college campus (I stopped attending after moving). One Sunday, the pastor got up and said that if the believers were there just to have a good time and not be changed, not be moved to action, he didn't want them there. He didn't want benchwarmers. I guess for me the real question is, is the Gospel being preached...not some watered down version that makes you feel good and does nothing to exact change, but the life changing Word of God? Traditional or modern, this is becoming more and more difficult to find.

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