Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (Full Version)

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BarryLee -> Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 3:17:34 PM)

My entire life has been spent in traditional conservative Southern Baptist churches. So, I was very excited when a local Southern Baptist minister started a new church with a casual modern worship style. This includes extensive use of audio visual aids, a rock band, casual clothing, drama presentations, beverages in the sanctuary, etc. Now, the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message, but the delivery is a little different.

As I said at first I was very excited, but after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church. Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church, but it turned into long term Christians just getting lazy and disrespectful in church.

Has anyone else experienced this in other “modern” churches?



earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 3:24:11 PM)

Welcome to the Emergent Church/Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven generation.....



Soxfan -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 3:40:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Welcome to the Emergent Church/Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven generation.....


Reminds me of a great quote by Spurgeon. I'll paraphrase...

"The Bible shouldn't fit the times, the times should fit the Bible"


quote:

Originally the idea was to meet folks where they were and make them feel comfortable in church


Our pastor has a great quote about that. He says that a successful church is one that makes new people feel comfortable, but makes mature believers feel UNCOMFORTABLE



rcjames -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 3:55:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarryLee
... and shake their booties to the music


That part of the description did give this ole Holiness preacher more than a little pause.

Shaking one's booty to "How Great thou Art", or "Amazing Grace" just does not comupte.

Thanks
RC



earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 3:58:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

That part of the description did give this ole Holiness preacher more than a little pause.

Shaking one's booty to "How Great thou Art", or "Amazing Grace" just does not comupte.

Thanks
RC


That's because those kind of churches do not play "How Great Thou Art", nor "Amazing Grace" - those are old and unwelcoming to those they wish to attract.



JimboFletch -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:01:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Reminds me of a great quote by Spurgeon. I'll paraphrase...

"The Bible shouldn't fit the times, the times should fit the Bible"

Love Spurgeon, but you don't suppose we should give up electricity and padded pews and meet in underground cemeteries so we can meet in conditions like the early church?



1love1God1way -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:02:17 PM)

What's wrong with playing U2 for worship [8|]



stateofgrace -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:13:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

What's wrong with playing U2 for worship [8|]



Because...very few of their songs could even remotely be considered "worship music"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of theirs from way back in the early '80s. As a matter of fact, I was watching a Biography Channel bio on Bono the other night OnDemand, and DD#1 (18 1/2) asked, "Is Bono still alive?" Wow, did THAT make me feel old. Then she said, "oh...right...they did that 'Vertigo' song..."

At any rate, our pastor used a clip of Bono and U2...as an illustration. And he was laughing that he never thought he'd see the day that he'd do that. We don't use their music for worship.



rcjames -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:32:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
That's because those kind of churches do not play "How Great Thou Art", nor "Amazing Grace" - those are old and unwelcoming to those they wish to attract.


OK, but shaking one's booty while worshipping God just does not compute either.

Thanks
RC



earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:35:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
That's because those kind of churches do not play "How Great Thou Art", nor "Amazing Grace" - those are old and unwelcoming to those they wish to attract.


OK, but shaking one's booty while worshipping God just does not compute either.

Thanks
RC


I hear you, RC....

But I guess you've never been in a church where the P&W music would make a Salsa club from Puerto Rico blush.... [&:]



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:41:26 PM)

I find it interesting that these people are getting railed as Emergent when their SBC doctrine hasn't changed! Let me rephrase this... we are throwing a fit because people aren't getting dressed up and they have syncopated rhythms in the band. As a sound tech for a worship team, I enjoy energizing a room by pumping the bass and the kick... something that isn't particularly possible when you don't have a bass guitar or a kick drum.

Myself, I love hymns. I wish there were more of them that had been reset to newer arrangements. However, people need more than contemporary music, bass guitars, drum sets, or more hymns to avoid spiritual boredom. I would tend to agree with the subject line of this thread, but for a completely different reason than the OP. What we need to avoid spiritual boredom is revival, signs and wonders to be made manifest in the body of Christ. When we discover who God really is, we won't be made bored by Him. To the degree that you are spiritually bored, is the degree that you have wrong ideas about who God is.

The other thing to watch out for is "Modern Christians = Busybodies". People who read their Bible every day and find nothing better to do with that knowledge than run other people down with it. People who are dogmatic about their doctrine and have no meekness, humility, or love to match. Another way to say it is to avoid being so busy studying and doing other religious works that you forget to actually spend time with God. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Adam



bluestone -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 4:48:03 PM)

A lot of the new light , fluffy worship services seem to create believers that never leave the shallows for the deep water.

I hae no problem with casual attire, variety of music, etc. but texting in church happens in traditonal services too, and I find it distracting.



Charis2u -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 5:06:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

That part of the description did give this ole Holiness preacher more than a little pause.

Shaking one's booty to "How Great thou Art", or "Amazing Grace" just does not comupte.

Thanks
RC


That's because those kind of churches do not play "How Great Thou Art", nor "Amazing Grace" - those are old and unwelcoming to those they wish to attract.

Well, now I'm in a church that does both types of music so not all mordern churches do one or the other.



earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 5:08:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charis2u

Well, now I'm in a church that does both types of music so not all mordern churches do one or the other.


Oh, I know... but it's a rarity. And in my years as a minister I have found that many of those churches that do start off with both hymns and CCM.. they usually end up dropping the hymns or split into two separate services. That's sad.



facedown -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 8:48:00 PM)

earthless
you so continue to post ignorant responses (post 5)

furgodwurlivin
good observation - "SBC churches" are not "emergent"

bluestone
i don't know what a "fluffy worship service" is, care to expound?



davelinde -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 9:13:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarryLee

... the theology is still very much in line with the Baptist Faith and Message,

...after a few months of watching people come and go during services, talk on cell phones, send text messages, dress in high priced casual clothing including shorts and shake their booties to the music - I left the church.

Has anyone else experienced this in other “modern” churches?


I guess I'd be less concerned about watching people in the Sunday service for a few months and more concerned about watching people in their real life for a year. I've now been involved in three churches who wanted to "reach seekers" to one extent or another and employed various methods to do so.

I guess my flip side to this is the un-modern church where people piously and rigidly sing hymns full of awesome theology set to music I cannot sing. Respectfully go through the motions each Sunday and seem to miss the point of salvation and grace the other six days.

In the more modern experience I've had -- I hear people who have said they'd never have stayed in a traditional church who come to faith, grow in discipleship and demonstrate amazing life change. Of coursed I'd like it all... but if I've got to trade off between well behaved Sundays with little change the other 6 days -- and life change with some messy new Christians and pre-Christians in church on Sunday I know what I'll pick.

Sunday we had a former drug dealer rapper give testimony and perform. Not exactly my favorite kind of music, but he was a REAL person - clearly changed by the Gospel and based on that I thought he was awesome.



rcjames -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/17/2008 9:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charis2u
Well, now I'm in a church that does both types of music so not all mordern churches do one or the other.


At my Church we do a variety of musical styles and during praise and worship folks may be standing, jumping up and down, kneeling, prostrate on the floor, or sitting and hanging on to a hymnal for dear life; but no booty shaking.

Thanks
RC



stateofgrace -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 8:21:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charis2u

Well, now I'm in a church that does both types of music so not all mordern churches do one or the other.


Oh, I know... but it's a rarity. And in my years as a minister I have found that many of those churches that do start off with both hymns and CCM.. they usually end up dropping the hymns or split into two separate services. That's sad.


Well, our "sanctuary" services do some modern music, but with a choir and a more rounded out band, sometimes a mini-orchestra. And they do some traditional hymns as well.

Our contemporary services do mostly modern music, and some hymns done with either a folk or rock praise arrangement. One or two people leading singing, and a smaller band with drums, guitars, base, keyboards.



earthless -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 8:37:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

earthless
you so continue to post ignorant responses (post 5)



Thank you for calling me ignorant. As for your concern about my post(s) or posting style, please go through the appropriate steps and go through the moderators, report my posts, write your congressman, etc..



Consecrated2God -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 8:42:04 AM)

As for booty shaking, I think I would have to actually see it to make a judgment on that one. Sometimes people describe things in ways that I wouldn't personally describe them. I have a dear teenage friend that loves the Lord and is very outspoken about that fact, that will encourage the choir to worship by saying, "Shake your butt for Jesus!" Now, that sounds very strange to my ears, as I was raised in a pretty conservative family, but if you watch her, she's not actually shaking her booty. It's an expression, she says.

Cell phones--I find that annoying, too, but again, I think it's a generational thing.

I don't think having contemporary services and power point cause people to be lazy. If they create an environment where people feel comfortable doing things they would normally do in any setting, (such as text) then I guess you could say they are acting on Sunday like they act the rest of the week. In some ways I can see that as a benefit. There's no becoming another person on Sunday. No being one kind of person on one day of the week, and a different kind of person the other six days of a week. At least they aren't being hypocritical.

Could they learn some lessons in good manners? Probably. I'm not sure it's indicative of a spiritual issue in their lives, though.

If you want to take the spiritual pulse of your congregation, have them fill out surveys on how often they read the Bible, fast, pray, obey the Bible, etc. No names, so people will be more honest. The daily spiritual lives of these people will tell you a lot more than about what you observe in church. It would be interesting to see if they differ from the daily spiritual lives of those who go to a traditional church.



Soxfan -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 11:17:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

A lot of the new light , fluffy worship services seem to create believers that never leave the shallows for the deep water.


These light, fluffy, Osteen/Warren-like services create what I like to call "Evanjellyfish". No backbone, no spine, and they just float around listening to and believing anything they hear.

I have nothing against projecting Scirpture on a screen, but what happens is people leave their Bibles home. Therefore, they never refer to it to ensure that the teaching lines up with Scripture.

As a result, you have people that actually think that the Osteens, Meyers, Dollars, Hinns, etc, are actualy teaching sound doctrine.



msashua -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 12:06:24 PM)

This is an interesting discussion and the various comments kind of encapsulate my concern with my own chuch..It seems to me that there is a great degree of difference between "shaking the booty" to a good gospel tune and getting one's praise on in a joyous and enthusiastic manner. If one member can tolerate some old style hymns but really prefers the less traditional praise music, can't the hymn lover tolerate some less traditional music. Didn't Jesus tell us to love our fellow man as we love ourself? To love, don't we need to learn tolerance?



sue244 -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 12:26:42 PM)

quote:

I guess my flip side to this is the un-modern church where people piously and rigidly sing hymns full of awesome theology set to music I cannot sing. Respectfully go through the motions each Sunday and seem to miss the point of salvation and grace the other six days.


Is this not the same sweeping gerneralizations the some modern chruches say tradtional churchs make about them?


I get so tired when people act like the only way you can reach young people is to throw out the hymns, reading the Bible (thats not on a powerpoint display) etc. My 2 best friends say they would give anything to be in a 'traditional' church but they just settle for modern ones. (btw we are in our 20s)

The 'modern' way of doing church may work for the baby boomers but please don't act like your doing it for us younger people. If you look at the emerging church it is even going more 'traditional' in how it does things with candels and litergey etc. And they are aming for my generation.

The fact that you are seeing text is just showing that they are not fully engagned in what is going on. Trust me if you can grab our attention, pulling our our cell phones will be the last thing on our mind. And please don't make excuesses for us by saying its a generational thing. Just because we grew up on all these gadgets doesn't mean we are not able to put them down for 45 min.



stateofgrace -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 1:55:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

As for booty shaking, I think I would have to actually see it to make a judgment on that one.


I don't know about the "booty shanking" but the strangest thing I've seen on youTube in recent months is when Lou Engle is praying. He bobs up and down like one of those bird toys. And then some kids in the audience start subconsciously picking up on it and do it too.



facedown -> RE: Modern Churches = Lazy Christians ??? (3/18/2008 7:04:50 PM)

earthless
the point of conversation and dialogue in a forum is just that
in post 5 you suppose that hymns have no business in "modern churches" -
such an argument has no basis, has no credibility, and represents nothing but a personal, non-critical thinking point of view and a total lack of discernment and without reason.

now, does your observation have any merit? i'm sure. but given in such a general way that all "new" or "modern" or "post-modern" or whatever churches are unwelcoming to anything "old" is inaccurate to say the least.
and in addition, i would suspect, that if "old" hymns were a primal part to what s acceptable, your gathering might have "old" hymns - maybe phos hilaron chanted by chance?

soxfan
what details construct your check list for "evanjellyfish" services?



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