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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:06:04 PM
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golfjack
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/23/2008
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Earthless, Do you really want me to answer your questions? If I answer, I could be banned.
Do you even know what the gifts of the Spirit are? Is the gift of healing a gift or not? If not, prove it by scripture?
By the way, I have never directed anything personally at you, like saying you are not saved. If I ever get a Word of Knowledge about your salvation, you will be the first to know. Why don't you pray in the Spirit and pray the mysteries out.
I guess, some of are saying that a believer has no responsibity for his salvation. Is that right?
Peace, Golfjack
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:19:23 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 64
Joined: 6/19/2008
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Misty, you did not know my sister (unless you are from her small town in LA). Therefore, I intended to caution you to not judge the heart of a woman who was very faithful to God. I'm sorry I offended you.
I want you to explain (again, if necessary) USING SCRIPTURE that a Christian who dies from cancer simply accepted it rather than having "enough faith". My sister HAD the faith she needed to live and overcome it. GOD WILLED her to be healed via death.
You've made promises in the past (and again in your most recent post) to bring scripture and answer questions, but up til now, you've not delivered.
I'm giving you a real life example of someone with "enough faith" to overcome disease and yet she still died. How do you reconcile this. However, DO NOT answer if you cannot give definitive proof of your beliefs with Scripture.
< Message edited by TrustingGod -- 11/12/2008 9:26:05 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:20:26 PM
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7OFUS
Posts: 75
Joined: 11/5/2008
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quote:
quote:
Did the woman with the issue of blood act on her faith when she touched the garment of Jesus, and Jesus told her HER FAITH HAS MADE HER WHOLE?
Peace, Golfjack
To answer your question;
Yes she did, and Jesus, for His sovereign purposes, chose to heal her on the spot.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
The Bible says what it says. It was her faith that made her whole. I guess you are a spin doctor.
Peace, Golfjack
Okay -- so I'm a spin doctor -- please answer the question I asked, which is 1Tim 5:23 says "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent illnesses."
Why didn't Paul tell Timothy to appeal to the atonement, have more faith, pray harder, and/or tell him it's not God's will he be sick?
Again, again, please. .
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:24:52 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 64
Joined: 6/19/2008
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Golfjack, I went back to find Earthless' 2 questions because I wanted to know what he could possibly ask that could cause you to get banned if you answered. In case you are confused, here are his questions:
(1) Show us the biblical basis for your belief that everyone is promised physical healing in this earthly life.
(2) Explain why we all die. Otherwise present to us people who have been alive for over 2,000 years, thank you. Explain why you get wrinkles, get headaches, get colds, get the flu, get the runs, get fat and or skinny. All a result of living in a fallen body in a fallen world.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:33:44 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 456
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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So we have:
Child4Jesus, 7OFUS, Earthless and many others waiting for answers to questions they have posted. Sincerely I might ad. Just like we have been providing scripture and backing it up with other scripture that is what we want to see. Not just one verse out of context like the ever quoted, "By His stripes we are heal."
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 9:59:24 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 1712
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
By the way, I have never directed anything personally at you, like saying you are not saved. If I ever get a Word of Knowledge about your salvation, you will be the first to know. Why don't you pray in the Spirit and pray the mysteries out.
Scriptures IN CONTEXT please. And Word of Knowledge isn't like Pat Roberston acting like Miss June on Romper Room who "sees" Bobby through her magic wand. So, it is all about the individual's faith rather than the One in whom that trust is placed?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 10:18:51 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12173
Joined: 4/16/2005
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Okay, people, that is enough.
This thread is in time-out.
I sincerely hope the participants on both sides contemplate *why*.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 11:21:28 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Misty35, please email community@salemwebnetwork.com comcerning the status of your account.
Please allow time for a reply.
Do not post under this handle or any other without permission from Admin.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 11:23:34 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12173
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Golfjack, please email community@salemwebnetwork.com concerning the status of your account.
Please allow time for a reply.
Do not post under this handle or any other without permission from Admin.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 11:41:52 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 456
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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Hope this goes well and that it is actually helping people.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 12:10:20 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5518
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
Golfjack, I went back to find Earthless' 2 questions because I wanted to know what he could possibly ask that could cause you to get banned if you answered. In case you are confused, here are his questions:
(1) Show us the biblical basis for your belief that everyone is promised physical healing in this earthly life.
(2) Explain why we all die. Otherwise present to us people who have been alive for over 2,000 years, thank you. Explain why you get wrinkles, get headaches, get colds, get the flu, get the runs, get fat and or skinny. All a result of living in a fallen body in a fallen world.
Thank you for re-posting them. I do hope that anyone who claims for themselves these beliefs.. that they can be honest about them and ponder about the questions I have asked.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 12:13:32 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7963
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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I am always somewhat amazed by the number of people who profess to be Christians yet will not respect the request of company to stay out of the company's community.
That's like someone refusing to stay out of my house when I've asked them to not return.
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 12:21:15 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5518
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
I am always somewhat amazed by the number of people who profess to be Christians yet will not respect the request of company to stay out of the company's community.
That's like someone refusing to stay out of my house when I've asked them to not return.
I place it on par with an adult asking another adult a simple question and the one adult outright and bold-faced ignoring the question.
That would never fly in the public arena/discussion let alone something that should be seen by self-professing Christians.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want - but to not be able to defend such belief.. well, maybe it's just me.. but I couldn't live with a belief that I cannot defend.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 1:00:52 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 1712
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want - but to not be able to defend such belief.. well, maybe it's just me.. but I couldn't live with a belief that I cannot defend.
The WOFers will defend their faith with esegis rather than exegis: one letter makes a world of difference.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 1:18:39 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 456
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want - but to not be able to defend such belief.. well, maybe it's just me.. but I couldn't live with a belief that I cannot defend.
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
The WOFers will defend their faith with eisegesis rather than exegesis: one letter makes a world of difference.
eisegesis: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.
exegesis: exposition, explanation; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
exposition: 1: a setting forth of the meaning or purpose (as of a writing)
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 6:43:33 PM
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prophet
Posts: 697
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want - but to not be able to defend such belief.. well, maybe it's just me.. but I couldn't live with a belief that I cannot defend.
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
The WOFers will defend their faith with eisegesis rather than exegesis: one letter makes a world of difference.
eisegesis: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.
exegesis: exposition, explanation; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
exposition: 1: a setting forth of the meaning or purpose (as of a writing)
Thanks, i learnt a new english word today! 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/13/2008 8:07:39 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5518
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Earthless, Do you really want me to answer your questions? If I answer, I could be banned.
Why would that be if you're going to answer my two questions with the Word of God? How strange..
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Do you even know what the gifts of the Spirit are?
Yes, praise Jesus I do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Is the gift of healing a gift or not?
God heals, we do not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
If not, prove it by scripture?
It has been done several times in this thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
By the way, I have never directed anything personally at you, like saying you are not saved.
OK? And your point being? Because neither have I.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
If I ever get a Word of Knowledge about your salvation, you will be the first to know.
No need for "RHEMA" because I know absolutely that I am saved. Why and how? Because of Jesus, not because of any ounce of myself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Why don't you pray in the Spirit and pray the mysteries out.
I pray to God and He listens because of Jesus. As for mysteries... there are no mysteries to what we have been discussing because they are plainly laid out for us in the context of Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
I guess, some of are saying that a believer has no responsibity for his salvation. Is that right?
Peace, Golfjack
All I was asking you to do was answer to questions you bluntly ignored for days.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 12:09:56 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 774
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Is it standard in WOF theology to believe we (as believers) are still under the blessings/curses of Deut 28? Or was that just golfjack's theology?
It appears to be that from those who are in it.
Just yesterday as I was going through the channel selection menu. I notice TBN had on the telethon. Which got me curious to what heck I thought all of it took place last week.
To my amazement it was old Jesse saying I needed a refill of the holy ghost because the last healing I had, took all of the holy ghost and now I needed a refill.
Wish I could bring up for all to see. But some of my computer technology isn't all that great.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 2:56:58 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1422
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
quote:
ORIGINAL: golfjack
Stepephanos, Scriptures says what Jesus was not able to do. Jesus God and He came to do God's will, but yyet He was powerless to do mighty works ( miracles in His hometown because of their unbelief ( Matt. 13:53-58). Therefore, you see even in scriptures says God was powerless because of uunbelief. see Mark 6:1-6.
You are absolutely right, He was amazed at their lack of "FAITH." He looked elsewhere, seeking those who would respond to His miracles and message.
Let's look at what actually is being said in these passages:
Matthew 13:53-58
53When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household." 58And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:1-6
1Jesus went out from there and came into His hometown; and His disciples followed Him. 2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household." 5And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.
First, we must definitely note that there are none who came to Jesus to be healed, but were turned away. There is no account of someone coming to Jesus, saying that they believe and want to be healed, only to be turned away because they don't believe enough. This is a key difference between Biblical accounts of healing and WOF accounts of healing.
Second, let us examine the WOF teaches about these passages, and what they claim is the only possible understanding. WOF says that this proves that God requires our faith to empower Him to heal. This in itself is wholely contrary to scripture. Jesus Christ said "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matt 28:18). In John 17:2 Jesus Christ tells us that the Father gave Him "authority over all flesh". To claim that believers have to give authority to God that God already has is blasphemy.
Furthermore, WOF would have us believe that having enough faith will always and immediately trigger God to fulfill His promises of healing and/or prosperity. This, too, impugns on God's sovereignty. Moreover, it also violates the teachings of scripture in Hebrews 11 and 2Cor 11-2. Both of these passages tell us of believers of great faith who did not receive God's promises in this life. They had great faith, that somehow did not force God to immediately fulfill His promises to us.
So, knowing that what WOF claims is the only explanation for those passage is, in fact, contrary to the plain teachings of scripture, are we left with an alternate understanding that is in line with the teachings of the Apostles? YES! The question becomes, if Jesus had the ability and the authority to do whatever miracles He wanted to, then why did a lack of faith prevent Him from doing so?
The answer is simple, He had no reason to. Jesus did not lack power, He lacked purpose.
John 4:34
Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work."
John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
Jesus was obedient to the will of His Father, not to the will of men. It is because the Father desires that those who have faith will be rewarded that Jesus Christ could do no miracles for those who did not believe. This is no commentary on human ability, or on the quality of human faith. This is all about God's reliability and His character. This is about Jesus Christ being perfectly obedient to the Father, so as to perfectly fulfill the Law, so He could be the perfect sacrifice for the sin of men. To take the focus of Christ's ministry off of these things, and place it instead on the supposed power of men is a perversion the Gospel message.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 3:05:23 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1422
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
Misty, you say those who die with cancer simply accepted the disease rather than claiming in faith for healing.
My sister fought cancer for 5 years. She never accepted the disease. She never invited it in. She did not sin to receive it. She received a word from God that she would be healed. Was He a liar? Did she not have enough faith to accept that word? Be very careful how you answer.
My sister lived her faith. She believed God 100%. She believed He could heal her 100%. In fact, she KNEW He was going to heal her. She trusted God 100%. In fact, 4 days before she died when I had to tell her that the doctors said she wasn't going to make it more than 6 weeks, she didn't understand what they were talking about BECAUSE she knew God was going to heal her. Yet, she died of cancer.
Explain that. And don't you dare say she didn't have enough faith.
For those who haven't been reading closely enough, or sometimes have trouble remembering who posted what (and I know I sometimes forget to check which name is attached to which post), let me point out that I am not TrustingGod, and we don't share a sister. There are two testimonies of sisters who had great faith during cancer.
There are also multiple testimonies from those with neurofibromatosis, and possibly other duplicates I haven't noticed.
Of course, since the testimonies of Paul, and Stephen, and Abraham, and so many more, were completely ignored, and scripture maligned for daring to suggest that God's promises are His to fulfill when it pleases Him to do so, and that men cannot fulfill those promises by their own power when it pleases men, I do not know why our modern testimonies shouldn't be ignored as well.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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