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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 5:47:08 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DrIjames
. Wel, there are times that she comes in and you can literally see the Glory of G-d on her it surronds her like a fog. The pressence of G-d is so thick you can almost cut it. This is how I can see and feel the Spirit of G-d, this is also the kind of church tah I look for. A church where G-d is there and you know it beyond all doubt.
Wow. Is God MORE present in certain places than others?
Is there a Church where God isn't?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 6:06:07 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Wow. Is God MORE present in certain places than others?
Sometimes, He's omni-and-then-some-present.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 7:28:42 PM
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earthless
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I believe he was being sarcastic about those that claim God is only present in certain groups of born-again believers...
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 11/30/2008 10:09:12 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I believe he was being sarcastic about those that claim God is only present in certain groups of born-again believers...
I was indeed. Sorry for the confusion.
I find the notion that God loves or works through some of His children less than others to be unbiblical. If anything, God is more present in the less "alive" churches, to coax them in to greater service.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 5:32:56 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: DrIjames
G-d still heals in the services held by henn.
How do you know it is God healing? This is an honest question, because I do not know how to tell myself. Hinn does not preach the gospel I know, so I question if anything involved with him is of God. Jesus tells us that "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect" So we know that merely performing miracles is no proof that God is the one doing them.
As to this thread in general, how do WOF respond to this passage:
Proverbs 30:8-9
Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.
9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you and say, 'Who is the LORD ?' Or I may become poor and steal, and so dishonor the name of my God.
Do WOF teachers ever preach about the dangers of being too rich? They talk a lot about abundance, but I've never heard of them warning about the wealth of this world drawing us away from God. Would anyone care to provide a sermon transcript or a video clip showing a WOF teacher talking about the dangers of loving money?
Also, while I was on vacation I realized there are a lot of "negative confessions" in the NT. I'm planning on trying to find good examples of when NT writers (or even Jesus Himself) have said that something is happening, or that it will happen. I figured the OT would be way to easy to do that with, especially the Psalms and Lamentations, but I doubt I'll have any lack of quotes to find in the NT.
Hi FigmentPez,
I understand what you are saying here, and I cant argue the points that you have made here, one because I have NEVER been to one of Benny Hinn's crusades or to see him period......I have seen him on tv, and I have questioned some things, thats for sure....but I stop there and leave that up to God to decide, and Im not making that remark toward you in any disrespect, so please do not take it that way, thats just me.
Anyway, the reason Im writing here, is because I do like your post, and brings out a lot of important points and things to consider. But my question is about John Hagee, he is from Texas, and he does warn about the things you have mentioned here, and he does it alot.....have you ever heard him or seen him? Is he consider a WOF? Im just curious. Because he does teach alot about faith and healing, but he also warns about the things you have mentioned here.
I guess Im just wondering, how does a person know if they are a WOF, and are they all wrong? And i know we should test all by the Word of God, thats for sure.
John Hagee is semi-Charismatic, from what I can tell, but not WOF, afaik.
That being said, I believe Hagee is a heretic, but that's for another thread.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 2:56:52 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I guess Im just wondering, how does a person know if they are a WOF, and are they all wrong? And i know we should test all by the Word of God, thats for sure.
My understanding of the core beliefs of WOF teaching are, roughly, as follows (if anyone thinks I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me)
1. "Faith" is a power that is put into action by "faith filled words". "Faith" is the source of all power, including God's, and even He is bound by the laws of how "faith" works.
2. Everyone can make things happen by speaking words with enough "faith". God created everything by His "faith". Christians can make good things (or bad things) happen to themselves by "faith". Even pagans like witches work by "faith", as witchcraft is just "faith filled words" in action.
3. Healing, prosperity and more can be had by Christians, immediately and always, when they speak words with enough "faith" behind them. Similarly, sickness, poverty and more will, immediately and always, be caused by any "negative confessions" spoken by anyone, even in jest.
4. Sickness is caused by sin, lack of "faith" and/or negative confessions, but always by the devil/demons as a result of the former.
5. Prayer that "God's will be done" is a lack of "faith", as all Christians should know what God's will is, especially with regards to healing, prosperity and other positive things that are always God's will for the here and now.
6. Positive confessions must always be made, even when they don't appear to be true. Saying that someone's leg is broken is a "negative confession" that lacks "faith" and instead a WOF believer should say that "God has already healed their leg" if they want the leg to be healed.
7. Words are so powerful that even God's plans can be thwarted by a human speaking words with enough "faith". The evidence given for this is Luke 1:5-25 where Zechariah is made mute because He didn't believe God's messenger. WOF says that if Zechariah had been allowed to speak, his words would have kept God's plan from happening.
That's all I can remember right now. If anyone wants proof of how all of these concepts are contrary to the teachings of scripture, I'm sure there are any number of posters in this thread (myself included) who would be glad to provide proof.
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Read Daniel 7:13-14
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 3:06:56 PM
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Child4Jesus
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figmentPez,
I think you are pretty spot on.
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The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 4:38:04 PM
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earthless
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Great post Figment - I would also add that WoF teaches that Jesus Christ did not atone for sin on the cross. And many of its leaders teach that unless you believe Jesus had to atone for sin in Hell, being tormented by Satan and the demonic for 3 days... and that Jesus had to speak "words of faith" to become the first born-again man.. than they teach that you are not saved.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:36:30 PM
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earthless
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Joel Osteen, T.D. Jakes, Paula White, Kenneth Copeland and others also preach the same thing.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/10/2009 12:59:03 AM
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nicole6598
Posts: 1688
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Do WOF teachers ever preach about the dangers of being too rich? They talk a lot about abundance, but I've never heard of them warning about the wealth of this world drawing us away from God. Would anyone care to provide a sermon transcript or a video clip showing a WOF teacher talking about the dangers of loving money?
Also, while I was on vacation I realized there are a lot of "negative confessions" in the NT. I'm planning on trying to find good examples of when NT writers (or even Jesus Himself) have said that something is happening, or that it will happen. I figured the OT would be way to easy to do that with, especially the Psalms and Lamentations, but I doubt I'll have any lack of quotes to find in the NT.
Good point there Pez about them not teaching about the dangers of being rich. I belong to a church whose denomination is WOF inclined, and I have never heard it being taught that being rich can be dangerous. Its quite the opposite.
I would be interested in finding out those "negative confessions" if you find any!!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/10/2009 3:29:32 PM
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colliefan
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Don't think the teach on this passage. If they do, the cut out the last verse
Eccl 2:1 - 11 (ESV) 1I said in my heart, “Come now, I will test you with pleasure; enjoy yourself.” But behold, this also was vanity. 2I said of laughter, “It is mad,” and of pleasure, “What use is it?” 3I searched with my heart how to cheer my body with wine—my heart still guiding me with wisdom—and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the children of man to do under heaven during the few days of their life.
4I made great works. I built houses and planted vineyards for myself. 5I made myself gardens and parks, and planted in them all kinds of fruit trees. 6I made myself pools from which to water the forest of growing trees. 7I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in my house. I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem.
8I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the treasure of kings and provinces. I got singers, both men and women, and many concubines,£ the delight of the children of man. 9So I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me. 10And whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil.
11Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 10:53:27 AM
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-Justyna-
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Well I will first like to start off by saying I have only read bits and pieces of this thread, and am still working on reading all of it, so forgive me, I just dont have that kind of time right now but if its okay, I would just like to jump right in here with the rest of you. I am just beginning to see the dangers of the WOF teachings after years of listening to them. I was not aware that they were wrong untill recently. Reading the thread is really helping me in many ways understand where they error. The main person I have listened to is Joyce Meyer, but I have also listened to others some of whuch include Copeland,, T.D. Jakes, Fred Price, Creflo Dollar and a few others that are just not coming to my mind right now. Its been years since I have listened to ANY of them, but I am afraid my doctrine is wrong now and that I have been taught incorrectly. I totally believed the propserity message as is appealed to me. I didnt know it was wrong though till recenly as God has opened my eyes. I too believed I was a little "god" and that I can make anything happen if I just had enough faith. I am deeply concered right now. Does anyone have any adive for me...or has anyone been where I am? Again I have not the time to read ALL the thread so I apologize if this is redundant.
If WOF is not sound doctrine as my eyes have been opened to this fact...my question now would be, what is SOUND DOCTRINE?
_____________________________
"In your madness, you can justify anything"
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 11:09:13 AM
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sirwintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: all.consuming.fire
If WOF is not sound doctrine as my eyes have been opened to this fact...my question now would be, what is SOUND DOCTRINE?
Hello all.consuming.fire,
It is wonderful that you have recognized the sham that is the WoF teaching. What I would throw out is that we trust God whether His answer on a matter is yes or no, no matter whether we think we are "victorious" or not, no matter if we are in lack or abundance. It is sound to know that God is faithful and that faith is believing in the character of God and not in our own ability to "magically" make something happen.
I'm sure more responses are coming. God bless.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 5:53:18 PM
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TrustingGod
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all.consuming.fire, get in the Word. I've been testing everything I hear against the Word. Read the Scriptures in context. You can prove anything if you don't mind taking scriptures out of their context.
For example, one pastor at my church told me that we can claim the promises God gave to the Isrealites in Deutronomy (one being wealth) because we are now Jews by virtue of our adoption as God's sons. My question is: if I can claim verses 2-20, why don't I have to follow verse 1 that says "IF you obey the commands I give TODAY. Where does the NT say Gentiles are now Jews?
Read the Scriptures and ask God for wisdom and understanding - He'll give it to you. You can know what He says.
God bless you.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 6:24:17 PM
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-Justyna-
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Thanks SIR.
And yes you are right about trusting God in every season of our lives whether it be in a valley or on a mountain top expierience. I like what you said about believing in His characteristics, which means we have to know Him deeply to be able to do this. I think this whole experience though sudden and unexpected, is bringing me closer to Him. Now that I am getting rid of all that WOF junk, slowly but surely, I hope to know Him and His will better in my life
_____________________________
"In your madness, you can justify anything"
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 6:47:35 PM
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earthless
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Justyna,
God bless you mightily sis. You so remind me of my wife when she started to see Word of Faith for what it is. She was born and raised in a HYPER Word of Faith church that pretended to be just a regular Pentecostal church.
Her mom is an international Word of Faith "superstar", traveling to and fro a multitude of countries. So for my wife to realize the falsehoods of what she was taught was a VERY painful thing. I don't have enough time to get into more detail, but do know that both her and I are now praying for you.
Please let us know if you have any questions. I am going to send you a PM shortly.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 7:08:30 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
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quote:
ORIGINAL: all.consuming.fire
Thanks SIR.
And yes you are right about trusting God in every season of our lives whether it be in a valley or on a mountain top expierience. I like what you said about believing in His characteristics, which means we have to know Him deeply to be able to do this. I think this whole experience though sudden and unexpected, is bringing me closer to Him. Now that I am getting rid of all that WOF junk, slowly but surely, I hope to know Him and His will better in my life
Cool, a.c.f., and praise God!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 7:40:00 PM
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-Justyna-
Posts: 1922
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Earthless,
Thank you so much for your prayers, I could use them right now. It was weird when the initial falsehood of the WOF was made clear to me, I kind of experienced an array of emotions, I am sure your wife can relate. At first I was SHOCKED that I could be led astray like that for so many years. It made me question my belief system to the core. Then I became ANGRY, not at God, but rather at myself for not knowing better. When I realized that I was like 17 years old when these teachings first came into my spirit, (Im 27 now) I sort of realized I was innocent and that it was not my fault that I was brainwashed into it. Then I became SAD because I realized that I have been living a lie all these years, and I also sad for these so called teachers/preachers that are leading millions like me away from the real truth. I've experienced a mixture of emtions regarding this topic. Now that all these initial emotions are wearing off, I am starting to feel HAPPY and EXCITED that finally God (not Meyer, Copeland, Jakes and Dollar) is going to lead me to the REAL TRUTH.
It was kind of bumming me out, but I see the light at the end of this dark tunnel that I have been thrusted into for so long. Its kind of sad to think of the years wasted, but its also a time of rejoicing becasue now the REAL TRUTH OF JESUS CHRIST CAN BE REVEALED IN ME, after I am purged of all this WOF stuff. I had a dream about this like 2.5 weeks ago. I've had several about it, actually. I am not that big into dreams but this one was from the Lord for sure. In the dream I went to go by candy from a vending machine. Well I wanted to buy just one piece of candy, but the machine started spitting out so many more pieces of candy...I mean lots and lots of candy was coming out of the machine. Bags full. When I asked the Lord what it meant, He showed me that its Him purging all the "SUGAR" from my spiritual diet. Im no longer going to be eating and taking in all that "WOF SUGAR" and will start to eat meat!
So I am trying to keep this experience as postive as I can, and realize that this is a time of growing for me.
< Message edited by all.consuming.fire -- 1/13/2009 8:51:42 PM >
_____________________________
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2009 10:01:05 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 392
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: all.consuming.fire
Earthless,
Thank you so much for your prayers, I could use them right now. It was weird when the initial falsehood of the WOF was made clear to me, I kind of experienced an array of emotions, I am sure your wife can relate. At first I was SHOCKED that I could be led astray like that for so many years. It made me question my belief system to the core. Then I became ANGRY, not at God, but rather at myself for not knowing better. When I realized that I was like 17 years old when these teachings first came into my spirit, (Im 27 now) I sort of realized I was innocent and that it was not my fault that I was brainwashed into it. Then I became SAD because I realized that I have been living a lie all these years, and I also sad for these so called teachers/preachers that are leading millions like me away from the real truth. I've experienced a mixture of emtions regarding this topic. Now that all these initial emotions are wearing off, I am starting to feel HAPPY and EXCITED that finally God (not Meyer, Copeland, Jakes and Dollar) is going to lead me to the REAL TRUTH.
It was kind of bumming me out, but I see the light at the end of this dark tunnel that I have been thrusted into for so long. Its kind of sad to think of the years wasted, but its also a time of rejoicing becasue now the REAL TRUTH OF JESUS CHRIST CAN BE REVEALED IN ME, after I am purged of all this WOF stuff. I had a dream about this like 2.5 weeks ago. I've had several about it, actually. I am not that big into dreams but this one was from the Lord for sure. In the dream I went to go by candy from a vending machine. Well I wanted to buy just one piece of candy, but the machine started spitting out so many more pieces of candy...I mean lots and lots of candy was coming out of the machine. Bags full. When I asked the Lord what it meant, He showed me that its Him purging all the "SUGAR" from my spiritual diet. Im no longer going to be eating and taking in all that "WOF SUGAR" and will start to eat meat!
So I am trying to keep this experience as postive as I can, and realize that this is a time of growing for me.
I praise the Lord for this as well.
I once was caught up in this stuff as well, and thankfully the Lord delivered me out, even though it was painful.
I know those emotions you are feeling, been there.
The Lord is good!!
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 1/14/2009 6:47:39 AM
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-Justyna-
Posts: 1922
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From: Northampton, U.K.
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Thanks DWTRAMM. I actually got as far as reading your testimony here, and praise God for it. I dont pastor any church like you do, so I cant even imagine how it must have felt to realize that you were saying the wrong things to your flock. That must have been really really painful. Of course you didnt know, and you did the right thing by stepping down so that God could work on you. I command that. Not everyone in your shoes does that. Some continue to mislead others. So praise God for that. ..He is good, and He knows we didnt know any better and has grace for ones like us.
I think I am just going to stick around this thread and continue to read it, till I am all the way finished with it. (only like half way done with it). I am finding that its helping to clear up a lot of the uncertainties in my mind as I look up scripture and see for myself what everyone is saying.
God Bless you.
_____________________________
"In your madness, you can justify anything"
--Me
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but I am a little nervous becasue I am by no means a Theologian (at least not yet), and I feel like sometimes I dont really get the Word well, meaning I dont understand it that well. I know that it will come in time, as I stay in it, but right now its a littel blurry. I am sure this stage wont last forever, just know that things are being cleansed from my thinking. Thank you for your response and your example. That part did make sense. I got that. 
